Discrepancies in diaries

[tenne]

There is a lot about the diaries that bothers me. three things that really stand out to me

Jan 25 group diary
" The bus made a small detour away from the highway, in the village of Shipichnoe, and we were given the chance to step out, which we did with pleasure. Four of the most agile went far ahead to the settlement of Talitsa to see the power station. Suddenly the heard: "The bus." We rush out the door, but, alas, it was too late. The bus passed by and we were forced to chance after it as fast as we can, hoping fate would be merciful and, perhaps, we would catch up with it (I am part of the "agile" four). However, the first hundred meters clearly demonstrated the advantages of a fifty horse power engine. Our heels flashed far behind the bus, and the gap widened. The prospect to walk about thirty kilometers on the highway with no breakfast and lunch already seemed quite real, when suddenly ... I mentioned that fate is merciful. The mercy came in the form of a girl going to Vizhay that hailed the bus and stopped the object of our persecution. A minute later we were already safely sitting on the second floor of the seats and traveling to Vizhay"

Jan 25 Zinaida diary
"Then we took the bus and drove off. We are 20 people, backpacks and skis. Had to pile up on 3 levels, but we sang songs all the way. Arrived in Vizhay"

Jan 25, Lyuda diary
"When we arrived at а turn the bus went to a village and had to return for us in an hour.
We continue on foot. It was so nice to walk along the road in such good weather. We went a little nuts and roll in the snow.
During our walk тхере вас ан incident - a car coming from the forest got stuck in the opposite direction. Our guys rushed to the rescue. Finally they pulled it out in half. Then our bus came up and we hopped on i"

end quotes
it seems very suspect to me that all three had a different sorta version of the events. I would think that 4 running and almost missing would be mentioned in all diaries

Jan 26 group diary
". I remembered particularly the red- bearded man. The Beard, that's what his friends call him.
Ognev is an old friend, he is described in Lyuda Dubinina's private diary."

Jan 26 Lyuda diary
" The guys are all young, as Igor noticed, there are even cute and generally interesting. Especially memorable among all is Ognev with a red beard and the nickname of his "Beard". In general, very rarely there are such people in such a hole. A true romantic, a geologist and generally developed."

end quotes
how did they know what was in her private diary and why describe him as an old friend when she doens't make a claim like that

jan 31 group diary (written by Dyatlov according to the notes)
"Wind not strong, snow 1.22 m deep. We’re exhausted, but start setting up for the night. Firewood is scarce, mostly damp firs. We build the campfire on the logs, too tired to dig a fire pit. Dinner’s in the tent. Nice and warm. Can’t imagine such comfort on the ridge, with howling wind outside, hundreds of kilometers away from human settlements."

Is he saying that camping on an unprotected area would be a bad idea or showing he knows how cold and dangerous is would be when they do it?

[sarapuk]

I dont thing there is anything untoward in the Diary entries. The Dyatlov Group probably discussed Diary entries amongst each other, hence the Group Diary. And it seems that camping on the ridge was considered a bad idea and yet they did it, for some reason.

[tenne]

But her diary doesn’t identify him as an old friend and it doesn’t sound like they had the same day. To me it sounds faked. How could they not notice the 4 running after the bus

[sarapuk]

But her diary doesn’t identify him as an old friend and it doesn’t sound like they had the same day. To me it sounds faked. How could they not notice the 4 running after the bus

Its the way people write and interpret things. I havnt seen anything untoward.

[tenne]

Really? I see a lot in the diaries that is suspect to me. No way the girls are not going to notice members of their party running behind the bus and no way the guys aren’t going to brag about getting helping someone

[sarapuk]

Really? I see a lot in the diaries that is suspect to me. No way the girls are not going to notice members of their party running behind the bus and no way the guys aren’t going to brag about getting helping someone

Well not everything gets written down and not always in the correct order.

[tenne]

that is the entire purpose of keeping a diary.

[KFinn]

There is a lot about the diaries that bothers me. three things that really stand out to me

Jan 25 group diary
" The bus made a small detour away from the highway, in the village of Shipichnoe, and we were given the chance to step out, which we did with pleasure. Four of the most agile went far ahead to the settlement of Talitsa to see the power station. Suddenly the heard: "The bus." We rush out the door, but, alas, it was too late. The bus passed by and we were forced to chance after it as fast as we can, hoping fate would be merciful and, perhaps, we would catch up with it (I am part of the "agile" four). However, the first hundred meters clearly demonstrated the advantages of a fifty horse power engine. Our heels flashed far behind the bus, and the gap widened. The prospect to walk about thirty kilometers on the highway with no breakfast and lunch already seemed quite real, when suddenly ... I mentioned that fate is merciful. The mercy came in the form of a girl going to Vizhay that hailed the bus and stopped the object of our persecution. A minute later we were already safely sitting on the second floor of the seats and traveling to Vizhay"

Jan 25 Zinaida diary
"Then we took the bus and drove off. We are 20 people, backpacks and skis. Had to pile up on 3 levels, but we sang songs all the way. Arrived in Vizhay"

Jan 25, Lyuda diary
"When we arrived at а turn the bus went to a village and had to return for us in an hour.
We continue on foot. It was so nice to walk along the road in such good weather. We went a little nuts and roll in the snow.
During our walk тхере вас ан incident - a car coming from the forest got stuck in the opposite direction. Our guys rushed to the rescue. Finally they pulled it out in half. Then our bus came up and we hopped on i"

end quotes
it seems very suspect to me that all three had a different sorta version of the events. I would think that 4 running and almost missing would be mentioned in all diaries

Jan 26 group diary
". I remembered particularly the red- bearded man. The Beard, that's what his friends call him.
Ognev is an old friend, he is described in Lyuda Dubinina's private diary."

Jan 26 Lyuda diary
" The guys are all young, as Igor noticed, there are even cute and generally interesting. Especially memorable among all is Ognev with a red beard and the nickname of his "Beard". In general, very rarely there are such people in such a hole. A true romantic, a geologist and generally developed."

end quotes
how did they know what was in her private diary and why describe him as an old friend when she doens't make a claim like that

jan 31 group diary (written by Dyatlov according to the notes)
"Wind not strong, snow 1.22 m deep. We’re exhausted, but start setting up for the night. Firewood is scarce, mostly damp firs. We build the campfire on the logs, too tired to dig a fire pit. Dinner’s in the tent. Nice and warm. Can’t imagine such comfort on the ridge, with howling wind outside, hundreds of kilometers away from human settlements."

Is he saying that camping on an unprotected area would be a bad idea or showing he knows how cold and dangerous is would be when they do it?

So!e things to consider...  The bus and Kolevatov incident (I actually kind if giggle thinking about him chasing after the bus, I must admit.)  At that point of the journey, the Dyatlov group was still traveling with the Blinov group.  So they were somewhere around 30 people packed into a bus like sardines.  In Soviet Russia at that time, visiting factories or utility companies was considered fun and showed solidarity to the workers.  Hence when the bus had to do a detour, Kolevatov and three others decided to go down the road to visit the power station.  It was not uncommon or unknown that the local busses were less than consistent.  It was said that they sometimes did not even stop for children standing in the snow.  When the bus went past the power station, Kolevatov and the other three took off after it trying to flag it down.  They didn't have to run terribly far before a local woman stepped out and waved it down and everyone jumped on.  There could be several reasons no one else mentioned it in their diaries.  One, they didn't really care, lol.  Kolevatov was kind of an ass, in the opinion of the girls in both groups.  He was considered a bit of an elitist by the guys. Two, they really might not have noticed.  They were around thirty people packed into a bus, excited, way overly tired from not sleeping the last few nights.  Or three, it just wasn't important to note.  The guys caught the bus after a few minutes and traveling commenced.  While you or I might consider it of note, we have to be careful not to project our prejudices or motivations onto them.  We are separated from them by 60+ years of time and a sea of cultural differences.  It could have been noted in some of the diaries that have not been found or collected...another moment where having the whole collection could answer so many questions!!

Something else we have to keep in mind; we are reading translations of Russian words.  Context and tense and other strange things happen during translations.  I suspect this is the case with some things in the diaries.  A comparison I use when teaching about Scandinavian grave finds is when a friend sent me a translation of a Finnish write up where "the fibers leapt out of the grave."  The translation was referring to a fiber manipulation technique known as "sprang," but when translated, came out as "leapt out of."  The translation was not wrong; sprang also means to have leapt.  But it was obviously a different definition in this case.  I've noticed this in a couple of places in the case files of the Dyatlov group.  I had an interesting conversation with someone who kept referring to the wadded up coats in the tent.  While the term in this case meant "quilted" (quilted with wool or cotton wadding in the channels,) wadded coats gives us the impression that their jackets were wadded into a ball.  Again, word for word the translation was technically correct but different in context.  The only reason I put this together was because I have made medieval quilted armor, (gambossed cuisses and gambison arming jackets,) that were made with wadding inserted into the channels.  It is tedious in process but effective for dispersing blows when hit with weapons and also effective as insulation against temperature differentials. 

[tenne]

very true and good points.

[ash73]

I find a few things surprising with the diaries:

1. Given the group diary is the official record of their trip, used to assess their Grade III certification, I'd expect it to contain navigation details, what course they took, how far they walked, location, etc. But it's vague and chatty, probably because they each took turns making entries. I suspect Igor was being careful what they wrote about navigation, for example they wouldn't want to record they were off course.

2. I find it surprising the personal diaries were all found together in a bag in the tent. If I was writing a personal diary I'd want to keep the contents to myself so I'd keep it on my person. But I think this can be explained by them each only getting turns at making entries in the group diary, so their personal diaries became their own record of the trip rather than personal feelings (for the most part).

3. Everyone stopped making entries in their diaries a couple of days before they died. This is very interesting, I think it tells us whatever issue they were facing was prolonged not sudden, e.g. bad weather and navigation errors meaning they were exhausted and too busy making up lost time on the hike to update the diaries. If they'd been resting before they ascended 1079 they would have updated them.

The diaries give a useful impression of relationships and morale, but contain mostly opinions rather than facts. Did the search team also find an annotated map, or other route details?

[tenne]

I agree its really strange that they didn't update their diaries with information to prove their trip and I also find it very strange they didn't really take any photo graphs to be used that way. I would have expected photos of the tent set up and the inside proving the stove was working, as from what I've read Igor wanted to prove his design for future use, landmarks with a person in front to prove it photos of the backpacks, how they were packed etc.
 

[Nigel Evans]

I find a few things surprising with the diaries:

1. Given the group diary is the official record of their trip, used to assess their Grade III certification, I'd expect it to contain navigation details, what course they took, how far they walked, location, etc. But it's vague and chatty, probably because they each took turns making entries. I suspect Igor was being careful what they wrote about navigation, for example they wouldn't want to record they were off course.Remember that all original materials were confiscated so it could be that a formal log existed and wasn't typed up before confiscation, hence it's lost. We don't have their maps for instance.

2. I find it surprising the personal diaries were all found together in a bag in the tent. If I was writing a personal diary I'd want to keep the contents to myself so I'd keep it on my person. Some people would be carrying stuff that couldn't be kept dry, someone would get the "dry bag" perhaps.
But I think this can be explained by them each only getting turns at making entries in the group diary, so their personal diaries became their own record of the trip rather than personal feelings (for the most part).
3. Everyone stopped making entries in their diaries a couple of days before they died. This is very interesting, I think it tells us whatever issue they were facing was prolonged not sudden, e.g. bad weather and navigation errors meaning they were exhausted and too busy making up lost time on the hike to update the diaries. If they'd been resting before they ascended 1079 they would have updated them. I'd agree that's it's of interest, but if the decision was to camp on the ridge to photograph strange lights would you discuss in the diary before or afterwards, or maybe wait to develop the films? Semyon boasted to friends that he would be famous when he returned.

The diaries give a useful impression of relationships and morale, but contain mostly opinions rather than facts. Did the search team also find an annotated map, or other route details?

[ash73]

...I would have expected photos of the tent set up and the inside proving the stove was working, as from what I've read Igor wanted to prove his design for future use...

The stove is interesting because it's a homemade design, unproven, and a very high risk item. We don't know if was used, but I suspect it was because he wanted to test it, the conditions were really bad, and it's mentioned in the Evening Otorten.

And I think there's a good chance it malfunctioned.

...Semyon boasted to friends that he would be famous when he returned...

Yes, good point. Let's assume it's true, what do you think they were spotting? And how did they know it would be there that night? It was two weeks until lights in the sky were reported again.

I think there's a problem with photographing anything that night due to the blizzard, but I'm just connecting the conditions in the photos and them failing to make it more than 200-300m up the slope.

It seems unlikely he'd be boasting about a record time for the ascent, Otorten is only a relatively small mountain. Is "Master of Sport" considered famous?

It's a month after Lunar 1, which was launched on a polar orbit (so would pass close by), maybe they tried again. There was another attempt in the summer that was kept secret for years.

Speaking of the Moon, I fed the coordinates into Stellarium to check, it didn't rise until about 4:30am local time, to the South, 36% phase... I've seen it mentioned much earlier than that.

[KFinn]

...I would have expected photos of the tent set up and the inside proving the stove was working, as from what I've read Igor wanted to prove his design for future use...

The stove is interesting because it's a homemade design, unproven, and a very high risk item. We don't know if was used, but I suspect it was because he wanted to test it, the conditions were really bad, and it's mentioned in the Evening Otorten.

And I think there's a good chance it malfunctioned.

...Semyon boasted to friends that he would be famous when he returned...

Yes, good point. Let's assume it's true, what do you think they were spotting? And how did they know it would be there that night? It was two weeks until lights in the sky were reported again.

I think there's a problem with photographing anything that night due to the blizzard, but I'm just connecting the conditions in the photos and them failing to make it more than 200-300m up the slope.

It seems unlikely he'd be boasting about a record time for the ascent, Otorten is only a relatively small mountain. Is "Master of Sport" considered famous?

It's a month after Lunar 1, which was launched on a polar orbit (so would pass close by), maybe they tried again. There was another attempt in the summer that was kept secret for years.

Speaking of the Moon, I fed the coordinates into Stellarium to check, it didn't rise until about 4:30am local time, to the South, 36% phase... I've seen it mentioned much earlier than that.

The stove was proven and tested.  It had been engineered by Dyatlov in 57 and had been used before on other treks.  That doesn't mean it couldn't have malfunctioned, of course.  But this wasn't its inaugural test run.

[ash73]

The stove was proven and tested.  It had been engineered by Dyatlov in 57 and had been used before on other treks.  That doesn't mean it couldn't have malfunctioned, of course.  But this wasn't its inaugural test run.

Had it been tested on a mountain, above the tree line, in blizzard conditions?

[KFinn]

The stove was proven and tested.  It had been engineered by Dyatlov in 57 and had been used before on other treks.  That doesn't mean it couldn't have malfunctioned, of course.  But this wasn't its inaugural test run.

Had it been tested on a mountain, above the tree line, in blizzard conditions?

Good question.  I've read other students say that they thought Igor would camp on that ridge to test out camping above the tree line *without* the stove, to prepare for the subs polar Ural trek he wanted to do but not the other way around.  Let me poke some at that. 

[marieuk]

Semyon boasted to friends that he would be famous when he returned.[/color]

Do you know if anyone has been able to confirm this was true?  If it is, then it would seem he had an additional reason for being there.  I guess he was talking about himself only, or he would have said 'we will be famous'.

[RMK]

The stove was proven and tested.  It had been engineered by Dyatlov in 57 and had been used before on other treks.  That doesn't mean it couldn't have malfunctioned, of course.  But this wasn't its inaugural test run.

Had it been tested on a mountain, above the tree line, in blizzard conditions?

I believe so.  Take a look at the photos from the 1958 trek through the Subpolar Urals that Dyatlov led.  You can see the tent pitched with the stove's chimney sticking out, as well as photos of a man carrying firewood on his back, above the treeline.

Edit:  oops, Akselrod led that trek, not Dyatlov.

[ash73]

I believe so.  Take a look at the photos from the 1958 trek through the Subpolar Urals that Dyatlov led.  You can see the tent pitched with the stove's chimney sticking out, as well as photos of a man carrying firewood on his back, above the treeline.

Oh they're fascinating, lots to discuss.

Look how much wood they're carrying, and how they climb steep slopes, and where they pitched the tent - talk about avalanche risk!

I'll get told off for going off topic again.

[KFinn]

Does anyone else agonize over wanting to read Zolotaryov's diary??  I get why we look at him oddly; he's the odd man out and easiest to see not being above board.  And he did have a sketchy background.  We know he did write; we have a picture of him looking thoughtful while writing.  But I'd handout Klondike bars to find his diary and read what he wrote about!  His perceptions of the others or his musings...  He could have provided a great control for understanding the personalities and relationships of the rest of the group, once he did not know them well and would be less biased. 

[tenne]

He certainly would bring a more mature aspect to the diaries and he is the most fascinating to me. With his past history it would be very interesting to see how he viewed the trip

[sarapuk]

I find a few things surprising with the diaries:

1. Given the group diary is the official record of their trip, used to assess their Grade III certification, I'd expect it to contain navigation details, what course they took, how far they walked, location, etc. But it's vague and chatty, probably because they each took turns making entries. I suspect Igor was being careful what they wrote about navigation, for example they wouldn't want to record they were off course.

2. I find it surprising the personal diaries were all found together in a bag in the tent. If I was writing a personal diary I'd want to keep the contents to myself so I'd keep it on my person. But I think this can be explained by them each only getting turns at making entries in the group diary, so their personal diaries became their own record of the trip rather than personal feelings (for the most part).

3. Everyone stopped making entries in their diaries a couple of days before they died. This is very interesting, I think it tells us whatever issue they were facing was prolonged not sudden, e.g. bad weather and navigation errors meaning they were exhausted and too busy making up lost time on the hike to update the diaries. If they'd been resting before they ascended 1079 they would have updated them.

The diaries give a useful impression of relationships and morale, but contain mostly opinions rather than facts. Did the search team also find an annotated map, or other route details?

I think its about what is missing regarding the Diaries. There may be missing Diary Entries and even missing Diaries. And yes its very interesting that the Diary entries seem to stop well before the Event that led to their demise, all the more reason to suspect that something is missing.

[marieuk]

Zolotaryov's diary would be very interesting, I imagine, and hopefully give some insight into his thoughts and feelings about the trip and the rest of the group.  Maybe even a clue as to why he thought he would be famous.   There seem to be so few diary entries to read through.  I wish there were more entries from Lyuda also.  She seemed to write a lot about how she felt and what was happening with the rest of the group.  Or as DB says maybe these are hidden away from the public. In a way I hope that's true, because that means they may come to light one day. 

[sarapuk]

Zolotaryov's diary would be very interesting, I imagine, and hopefully give some insight into his thoughts and feelings about the trip and the rest of the group.  Maybe even a clue as to why he thought he would be famous.   There seem to be so few diary entries to read through.  I wish there were more entries from Lyuda also.  She seemed to write a lot about how she felt and what was happening with the rest of the group.  Or as DB says maybe these are hidden away from the public. In a way I hope that's true, because that means they may come to light one day.

Yes and that is what keeps up the interest in this great mystery. The hope that one day more Evidence will be revealed.