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Author Topic: All the "pieces of the puzzle" for the DPI fit together very well !  (Read 12266 times)

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March 30, 2021, 11:21:47 AM
Read 12266 times
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Investigator


Another member objected when I posted recently that the DPI evidence fits like a glove.  I think the problem is that many people let the details, which may never be entirely understood, distract them from the obvious "big picture."  This may be the major obstacle to most people who want  to be professional investigators of one type or another.  They seem to want a standard of "beyond all doubt" rather than beyond reasonable doubt, and the standard is even lower for civil cases (in the USA).  In some nations there is an official inquest, where they decide what was the most likely scenario, though that may not result even in an indictment, though the inquest determined it was likely a homicide, for example.  In some homicide cases, there is only one person who could have been responsible for it, though there is no evidence because that one person apparently cleaned up the crime scene; this scenario is a bit like the DPI, because with the DPI there is only evidence for one possible explanation of the "big picture."  However, so many people will get caught up on details, some of which may require repeated reconstructions done by experts.

A couple of other cases that demonstrate either a basic investigative failure or a "failure of imagination:"  a young girl died in a circus tent fire in 1944 but was not identified for decades, despite the fact that her face was easily identifiable.  Eventually DNA testing solved the case, the problem apparently was that the parents were shown the wrong body and said, of course, that it wasn't their daughter.  The only explanation is that the authorities were overworked, due to how many deaths there were during this incident.  Another case involved a woman who was thought to have died as a result of jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge.  However, it was discovered during autopsy that she had a gun shot wound to the head, which must have been the cause of death.  Investigation uncovered a witness, who said the woman appeared fine, and just jumped off the bridge (nobody else was present).  The woman she lived with said that the victim was saying she would jump off the bridge but shoot herself as she was falling, to avoid being alive for a while and in pain.  They would have investigated her for possible homicide charges, as the gun was never found and the story sounded like nonsense, but the witness was adamant, and a suicide note was found in the handwriting of the person who committed suicide.

In the DPI, there is no good reason to question anything other than the judgement of the group (and Zina may have finally had enough and decided to go back to the tent after witnessing the deaths of the two Yuris), though obviously the investigation was not optimal (was it consistent with that nation and time period, though?).  And that brings me to a key point that most just seem to ignore: you will never likely get one explanation for everything that happened with the group that night.  It's highly unlikely we will ever learn if the idea to dig the "den" was part of an original plan or decided upon (by all or just some of them) at a later time, for example, just like we don't understand the rationale of the Chivrauy group more than a dozen years later.  And the Korovina group seems to have been "gripped by madness," perhaps related to lack of food and psychological stress.  By all means, keep other possibilities in the back of your mind, and if the evidence comes to light that supports one of those, then investigate further.  Until then, I think you'd find your free time better utliized by studying other "mysteries" and cases that puzzled the "experts" for a while before they finally figured out at least the big picture, as to what occurred.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2021, 03:59:26 PM by Investigator »
 

March 30, 2021, 11:37:22 AM
Reply #1
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KFinn


Another member objected when I posted recently that the DPI evidence fits like a glove.  I think the problem is that many people let the details, which may never be entirely understood, distract them from the obvious "big picture."  This may be the major obstacle to most people who want  to be professional investigators of one type or another.  They seem to want a standard of "beyond all doubt" rather than beyond reasonable doubt, and the standard is even lower for civil cases (in the USA).  In some nations there is an official inquest, where they decide what was the most likely scenario, though that may not result even in an indictment, though the inquest determined it was likely a homicide, for example.  In some homicide cases, there is only one person who could have been responsible for it, though there is no evidence because that one person apparently cleaned up the crime scene; this scenario is a bit like the DPI, because with the DPI there is only evidence for one possible explanation of the "big picture."  However, so many people will get caught up on details, some of which may require repeated reconstructions done by experts.

A couple of other cases that demonstrate either a basic investigative failure or a "failure of imagination:"  a young girl died in a circus tent fire in 1944 but was not identified for decades, despite the fact that her face was easily identifiable.  Eventually DNA testing solved the case, the problem apparently was that the parents were shown the wrong body and said, of course, that it wasn't their daughter.  The only explanation is that the authorities were overworked, due to how many deaths there were during this incident.  Another case involved a woman who was thought to have died as a result of jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge.  However, it was discovered during autopsy that she had a gun wound to the head, which must have been the cause of death.  Investigation uncovered a witness, who said the woman appeared fine, and just jumped off the bridge (nobody else was present).  The woman she lived with said that the victim was saying she would jump off the bridge but shoot herself as she was falling, to avoid being alive for a while and in pain.  They would have investigated her for possible homicide charges, as the gun was never found and the story sounded like nonsense, but the witness was adamant, and a suicide not was found in the handwriting of the person who committed suicide.

In the DPI, there is no good reason to question anything other than the judgement of the group (and Zina may have finally had enough and decided to go back to the tent after witnessing the deaths of the two Yuris).  And that brings me to a key point that most just seem to ignore: you will never likely get one explanation for everything that happened with the group that night.  It's highly unlikely we will ever learn if the idea to dig the "den" was part of an original plan or decided upon (by all or just some of them) at a later time, for example, just like we don't understand the rationale of the Chivrauy group more than a dozen years later.  And the Korovina group seems to have been "gripped by madness," perhaps related to lack of food and psychological stress.  By all means, keep other possibilities in the back of your mind, and if the evidence comes to light that supports one of those, then investigate further.  Until then, I think you'd find your free time better utliized by studying other "mysteries" and cases that puzzled the "experts" for a while before they finally figured out at least the big picture, as to what occurred.

You make excellent points!  Even in modern times, we sometimes miss.  There was a case in Texas in 2002; a father went missing.  That same week, authorities had a John Doe body.  One unit never checked with the other and over a decade later, it was finally discovered through the NAMUS project that the John Doe was the missing man.  Sadly, things like that happen :(
-Ren
 

March 30, 2021, 11:54:50 AM
Reply #2

trekker

Guest
In the DPI, there is no good reason to question anything other than the judgement of the group (and Zina may have finally had enough and decided to go back to the tent after witnessing the deaths of the two Yuris). 

Excellent points. Through history people have died in wilderness by just poor judgement and wrong decisions. I think this case have so much details that blur big picture and with those details you can prove or disprove almost any ludicrous assumptions and theories.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2021, 12:05:30 PM by trekker »
 

March 30, 2021, 12:10:30 PM
Reply #3
Offline

Ziljoe


I agree to a point investigator .....


"And that brings me to a key point that most just seem to ignore: you will never likely get one explanation for everything that happened with the group that night.  It's highly unlikely we will ever learn if the idea to dig the "den" was part of an original plan or decided upon (by all or just some of them) at a later time"

"Until then, I think you'd find your free time better utliized by studying other "mysteries" and cases that puzzled the "experts" for a while before they finally figured out at least the big picture, as to what occurred"

But it is the point of the website. Do we just go? I'm a bit confused.....
 

March 30, 2021, 12:20:24 PM
Reply #4
Offline

KFinn


I agree to a point investigator .....


"And that brings me to a key point that most just seem to ignore: you will never likely get one explanation for everything that happened with the group that night.  It's highly unlikely we will ever learn if the idea to dig the "den" was part of an original plan or decided upon (by all or just some of them) at a later time"

"Until then, I think you'd find your free time better utliized by studying other "mysteries" and cases that puzzled the "experts" for a while before they finally figured out at least the big picture, as to what occurred"

But it is the point of the website. Do we just go? I'm a bit confused.....

No.  We don't just go because something brought us all here for a reason.  Even if we can't resolve everything, we have still all learned a lot of things we might not have otherwise!!  I've learned more about the culture of Soviet Russia from researching this than I ever learned in my various stages of education.  I've met amazing people from so many other walks of life, from other countries and education backgrounds.  What better honor for the Dyatlovites than a legacy that brings people across the world together to honor their memories?
-Ren
 

March 30, 2021, 12:36:10 PM
Reply #5
Offline

Ziljoe


I agree to a point investigator .....


"And that brings me to a key point that most just seem to ignore: you will never likely get one explanation for everything that happened with the group that night.  It's highly unlikely we will ever learn if the idea to dig the "den" was part of an original plan or decided upon (by all or just some of them) at a later time"

"Until then, I think you'd find your free time better utliized by studying other "mysteries" and cases that puzzled the "experts" for a while before they finally figured out at least the big picture, as to what occurred"

But it is the point of the website. Do we just go? I'm a bit confused.....

No.  We don't just go because something brought us all here for a reason.  Even if we can't resolve everything, we have still all learned a lot of things we might not have otherwise!!  I've learned more about the culture of Soviet Russia from researching this than I ever learned in my various stages of education.  I've met amazing people from so many other walks of life, from other countries and education backgrounds.  What better honor for the Dyatlovites than a legacy that brings people across the world together to honor their memories?

I agree Kfinn. I'm just not fully understanding investigators point. I personally enjoy everyone's comments and ideas.... I also , like you ,enjoy how this brings people from every country in the world from every background , whether that be academic or a layman.


 

March 30, 2021, 01:20:31 PM
Reply #6
Offline

Nigel Evans


Sounds like "forum fatigue"!  whacky1
Take a break, the DPI will still be here when you return.
 

March 30, 2021, 01:25:51 PM
Reply #7
Offline

Ziljoe


Sounds like "forum fatigue"!  whacky1
Take a break, the DPI will still be here when you return.
I agree mate😜 but I think it's been good recently. I enjoy the debates and it's interesting, otherwise none of us would be here.
 

March 30, 2021, 01:52:31 PM
Reply #8
Offline

Nigel Evans


Sounds like "forum fatigue"!  whacky1
Take a break, the DPI will still be here when you return.
I agree mate😜 but I think it's been good recently. I enjoy the debates and it's interesting, otherwise none of us would be here.
For sure, i'll admit to being too busy to follow all of this "blizzard", what's your synopsis? Even better how about a thread, i'll do it.
 

March 30, 2021, 02:43:24 PM
Reply #9
Offline

marieuk


I agree to a point investigator .....


"And that brings me to a key point that most just seem to ignore: you will never likely get one explanation for everything that happened with the group that night.  It's highly unlikely we will ever learn if the idea to dig the "den" was part of an original plan or decided upon (by all or just some of them) at a later time"

"Until then, I think you'd find your free time better utliized by studying other "mysteries" and cases that puzzled the "experts" for a while before they finally figured out at least the big picture, as to what occurred"

But it is the point of the website. Do we just go? I'm a bit confused.....

No.  We don't just go because something brought us all here for a reason.  Even if we can't resolve everything, we have still all learned a lot of things we might not have otherwise!!  I've learned more about the culture of Soviet Russia from researching this than I ever learned in my various stages of education.  I've met amazing people from so many other walks of life, from other countries and education backgrounds.  What better honor for the Dyatlovites than a legacy that brings people across the world together to honor their memories?

Well said, I agree.  I think there is likely to be an explanation that covers most of what happened.  Possibly it's something that someone on here has already suggested.  Maybe some new evidence will come to light one day to back it up.   That's what I'm hoping anyway.
 

March 30, 2021, 02:53:55 PM
Reply #10
Offline

KFinn


I agree to a point investigator .....


"And that brings me to a key point that most just seem to ignore: you will never likely get one explanation for everything that happened with the group that night.  It's highly unlikely we will ever learn if the idea to dig the "den" was part of an original plan or decided upon (by all or just some of them) at a later time"

"Until then, I think you'd find your free time better utliized by studying other "mysteries" and cases that puzzled the "experts" for a while before they finally figured out at least the big picture, as to what occurred"

But it is the point of the website. Do we just go? I'm a bit confused.....

No.  We don't just go because something brought us all here for a reason.  Even if we can't resolve everything, we have still all learned a lot of things we might not have otherwise!!  I've learned more about the culture of Soviet Russia from researching this than I ever learned in my various stages of education.  I've met amazing people from so many other walks of life, from other countries and education backgrounds.  What better honor for the Dyatlovites than a legacy that brings people across the world together to honor their memories?

Well said, I agree.  I think there is likely to be an explanation that covers most of what happened.  Possibly it's something that someone on here has already suggested.  Maybe some new evidence will come to light one day to back it up.   That's what I'm hoping anyway.

I really hope for the same!  There has been such a wealth of new information and evidence over the course of the last decade that I think its entirely possible we could see the final pieces eventually.  At least, I very much hope so!!!
-Ren
 

March 30, 2021, 03:00:26 PM
Reply #11
Offline

MDGross


Tragedies can happen suddenly and the cause is straightforward. Skiers can get caught in an avalanche and there's no question what caused their deaths. Other tragedies need to be seen in the political and cultural atmosphere of the day. That's perhaps the most fundamental question of the DPI. For example, was it simply a weather-related event that led to tragic results? Or can it only be understood in the political and military uneasiness of 1959. The Soviet Union and America were desperate to get ahead in the arms race. Espionage on both sides was rampant. Regions within the Soviet Union were anxious to make a lasting impression in the upcoming 21st Soviet Congress as Teddy and Pavlov document. Their book details how the political climate of the day affected the DPI.
Some days I believe a simple and direct explanation is best. Other days, I'm convinced that the tragedy must be considered in the political environment of the day. My advice is always to keep an open mind. There was a poster about a year ago who was convinced that smoke from the stove filled the tent and drove the hikers down the ridge. When others questioned his assumptions, he thought everyone was wrong and promptly left the forum after two days.
As old X-Files fans like me believe -- "The truth is out there" -- but, man, is it ever elusive.
 

March 30, 2021, 03:00:58 PM
Reply #12
Offline

RMK


In the DPI, there is no good reason to question anything other than the judgement of the group
That's what I thought when I first learned of the DPI.  The whole thing might really be that simple, but I find it hard to believe due to how many weird details this case has.

Until then, I think you'd find your free time better utliized by studying other "mysteries" and cases that puzzled the "experts" for a while before they finally figured out at least the big picture, as to what occurred.
I'm not sure I follow you here.  Do you mean that it would be instructive for us to study other mysteries that are now solved, but the solutions for which eluded investigators for a long time?
 

March 30, 2021, 04:56:54 PM
Reply #13
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Another member objected when I posted recently that the DPI evidence fits like a glove.  I think the problem is that many people let the details, which may never be entirely understood, distract them from the obvious "big picture."  This may be the major obstacle to most people who want  to be professional investigators of one type or another.  They seem to want a standard of "beyond all doubt" rather than beyond reasonable doubt, and the standard is even lower for civil cases (in the USA).  In some nations there is an official inquest, where they decide what was the most likely scenario, though that may not result even in an indictment, though the inquest determined it was likely a homicide, for example.  In some homicide cases, there is only one person who could have been responsible for it, though there is no evidence because that one person apparently cleaned up the crime scene; this scenario is a bit like the DPI, because with the DPI there is only evidence for one possible explanation of the "big picture."  However, so many people will get caught up on details, some of which may require repeated reconstructions done by experts.

A couple of other cases that demonstrate either a basic investigative failure or a "failure of imagination:"  a young girl died in a circus tent fire in 1944 but was not identified for decades, despite the fact that her face was easily identifiable.  Eventually DNA testing solved the case, the problem apparently was that the parents were shown the wrong body and said, of course, that it wasn't their daughter.  The only explanation is that the authorities were overworked, due to how many deaths there were during this incident.  Another case involved a woman who was thought to have died as a result of jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge.  However, it was discovered during autopsy that she had a gun shot wound to the head, which must have been the cause of death.  Investigation uncovered a witness, who said the woman appeared fine, and just jumped off the bridge (nobody else was present).  The woman she lived with said that the victim was saying she would jump off the bridge but shoot herself as she was falling, to avoid being alive for a while and in pain.  They would have investigated her for possible homicide charges, as the gun was never found and the story sounded like nonsense, but the witness was adamant, and a suicide note was found in the handwriting of the person who committed suicide.

In the DPI, there is no good reason to question anything other than the judgement of the group (and Zina may have finally had enough and decided to go back to the tent after witnessing the deaths of the two Yuris), though obviously the investigation was not optimal (was it consistent with that nation and time period, though?).  And that brings me to a key point that most just seem to ignore: you will never likely get one explanation for everything that happened with the group that night.  It's highly unlikely we will ever learn if the idea to dig the "den" was part of an original plan or decided upon (by all or just some of them) at a later time, for example, just like we don't understand the rationale of the Chivrauy group more than a dozen years later.  And the Korovina group seems to have been "gripped by madness," perhaps related to lack of food and psychological stress.  By all means, keep other possibilities in the back of your mind, and if the evidence comes to light that supports one of those, then investigate further.  Until then, I think you'd find your free time better utliized by studying other "mysteries" and cases that puzzled the "experts" for a while before they finally figured out at least the big picture, as to what occurred.

Well you are certainly not making it easy for any one new to this Forum how to understand how Investigative work is done. You have made it sound complicated. Its not complicated. The problem with the Dyatlov Case is lack of Evidence. Plenty of speculation. Original Evidence has also gone missing over time, like the Tent, that mysteriously vanished at the end of the USSR era.
DB
 

March 31, 2021, 02:35:38 PM
Reply #14
Offline

Investigator


I agree to a point investigator .....


"And that brings me to a key point that most just seem to ignore: you will never likely get one explanation for everything that happened with the group that night.  It's highly unlikely we will ever learn if the idea to dig the "den" was part of an original plan or decided upon (by all or just some of them) at a later time"

"Until then, I think you'd find your free time better utliized by studying other "mysteries" and cases that puzzled the "experts" for a while before they finally figured out at least the big picture, as to what occurred"

But it is the point of the website. Do we just go? I'm a bit confused.....

No.  We don't just go because something brought us all here for a reason.  Even if we can't resolve everything, we have still all learned a lot of things we might not have otherwise!!  I've learned more about the culture of Soviet Russia from researching this than I ever learned in my various stages of education.  I've met amazing people from so many other walks of life, from other countries and education backgrounds.  What better honor for the Dyatlovites than a legacy that brings people across the world together to honor their memories?

Right, these cases are a great way to "expand your mind," make you wiser, etc., perhaps most important of all, though, they can make you recognize the flaws in the way one thinks, or what one decides to spend a lot of time pondering (but you need to have a certain amount of self-awareness and not think you know everything).  With the DPI, I would often think about it to help me fall asleep, which I found in the past would help me "free my mind" and generate new ideas.   There are still the details of the DPI, which are interesting, and if some reconstructions were done, we'd likely get some interesting insights.  I mentioned not long ago is that if you get some heavy canvas and ice it up, you can try to cut it with similar knives to what the group had at their disposal and see what happens.  But to speculate about consiracies, UFOs, Yeti, etc. seems like a waste of time until you get more evidence.  Spend your time thinking of reconstructions you might be able to do!