What the Prisoners Said

[amashilu]

https://dyatlovpass.com/syunikaev-2021

This post offers no new evidence, just something that I think about and want to share.

What were you told happened to the hikers?
We were told that the group went on a hike and died. But they were killed!
Did you decide that yourself?
No. The prisoners told us.
How did they know?
The prisoners knew all the news - and what was happening in the Far East, and in Irkutsk. And here, right under their nose, a tragedy happened. We, the convoy, lived with the convicts. And, of course, we discussed this case. So the convicts said - this is murder, but you are looking in the wrong place.
So if the prisoners told you about the death of the hikers, then it turns out that one of the prisoners killed them?
Although most of them were imprisoned for murder, but no, it was not the convicts who killed the hikers.


I recognize this behavior of the prisoners.

I worked in a prison for 20 years. When a new employee is hired, such as myself, they have to complete a six-week full-time training of how to work within the prison system. One of the things that is hammered into us and repeated over and over again is that the prisoners have nothing to do but watch us and listen to us all day and all night. They watch and they listen. They know everything about everyone. We were told repeatedly that because they watch and listen, they are always the first to know everything, so we were trained in how to be very careful and never talk within their hearing distance. Of course, after a few years, everybody breaks this rule and talks more openly.

After my six weeks were up and I began actually working in the system, I was almost immediately shocked when faced with this very thing. As Syunikaev said, "the prisoners knew all the news." They really do — prison news, local news, regional news, national news, and world news.  They knew, as Syunikaev says, "what was happening in the Far East, and in Irkutsk. And here, right under their nose, a tragedy happened. We, the convoy, lived with the convicts. And of course we discussed this case. So the convicts said - this is murder, but you are looking in the wrong place ... "
So having had long personal experience with prisoners knowing everything that happens, from right outside their door to the world stage, when I read about these prisoners saying the hikers were murdered but the searchers were looking in the wrong place, I find it hard to discount what they said. They told this to their friends. Syunikaev lived with them and they talked and were friends. I don't believe the prisoners were lying about this. They knew something.

If there were only a prisoner from that time alive today, they would be able to share what they knew.

Just something to think about.

[Marc]

I respect the evidence and the original conclusion of the investigation, because these were people who lived at the time and did their job. And what other conclusion could I have drawn if I had looked at the evidence as it is? Probably the same - "unknown compelling force".
But when you look at the evidence in a so-called big picture (unprofessionally), I have always had the feeling that this could very well be a case of murder.

 If it was a murder, we often think that it was only known by the killers, but often the locals know a lot more than you would expect and think. It may even have been an open secret in the area - incredible, but for some reason people are not very good at keeping secrets, even if you are involved.
It is understandable that people are happy to talk about what happened among themselves, but do not want to talk publicly and to investigators. Yes, people speculate, like us, and not everything can be taken as truth...but you never know.

[Ziljoe]

Thanks for sharing that amashilu

It is powerful and interesting how communication networks work. When I was looking into the Mansi signs on the trees , it gave a link to another researcher who has done good work on the tree signs but it progresses to one of the Mansi searchers who was convinced for murder, this is also mentioned on our Dyatlov pass website but it seems if his murder charge was pre or post the DPI. However, it is reported that this Mansi person ended up working as a prison person or in some military background ( that's a broad spectrum) but there does seem to be evidence for it. I'm not sure what it all means, but this Mansi individual seemed to be educated in writing etc where most of the Mansi were not. According to the researcher, his Mansi family name is in one of the photos  by the Dyatlov case files.

I will share the  link when I have a chance, it's in Russian and I can't say agree or disagree with it but there's good work in it . Basically it concludes that I he tree sign with the 1958 written was a fake by Ivanovo.


https://dyatlovpass.com/whois#letter19
Sheshkin Konstantin Efimovich (Шешкин Константин Ефимович) - born in 1932, Tyumen region - in 1959 а Mansi hunter; lived in Pelym yurts, Burmantovskiy rural council. Presumably in mid-February, while hunting, he saw traces of skis on the Lozva (above Auspiya) and Auspiya rivers leading to the Ural ridge while hunting with the Anyamovs from Suevat Paul. (Testimony). In the 60s he lived in the settlement of Lyamya-Paul. Brother of the famous Mansi artist Pyotr Efimovich Sheshkin (1930-1981). He was sentenced to 7 years for murder (in the taiga three people attacked him, so while trying to protect himself he accidentally killed one). Apparently, he was serving his term in Ivdellag and after release he remained to live in Pelym. Later, at least until the mid-80s, he served as a sergeant in the Ministry of Internal Affairs troops in Burmantovo. He died in 2010.

[amashilu]

Thanks, Ziljoe. What interests me about the statement attributed to the prisoners is that they knew this was murder.

Prisoners are given jobs, for example, as teacher aides in the classrooms, or as janitors cleaning the rooms and floors, and they are remarkable at making themselves "unseen" in order to get as close to the staff as possible and listen to everything that is said. Some of them are so good at this, they almost disappear while staff (as staff do in every workplace in the world) feel safe talking quietly in a corner, paying no attention to the janitor sweeping the floor 6 ft away. They really do gather any and all information that is there to be had, on every floor, all over the facility. So when they say they know something, in my experience, they do.

I believe these prisoners did know something. They told Syunikaev that it was murder, but that the murders didn't happen where the searchers were looking. Fascinating stuff!

[Ziljoe]

Yes ,I would think prisoners are very resourceful and also manipulative.

I get stuck every time when I try to work a model that involves anyone else being at the pass, or was somehow involved moving bodies without leaving any other trace. The raised foot prints going down the slope from the tent leads me to believe that this is the actual hikers footprints , I just don't think anyone could have faked that scenario.

However, that doesn't exclude someone forcing them out of the tent but then raises all the other problems, nothing stolen , how did these other people get there in the cold etc etc.

There is something written in one of the case files about prisoners with guns or something, if my translation was working correctly but it was some other incident. I've no idea why it's in the case files. 

[Ziljoe]

Found it quicker than I thought I would. Interestingly it mentions 11 people.

Copy 129

Classified
copy №3

Central Committee of the CPSU

to the Council of Ministers of the USSR

March 7, 1959
146/d

The USSR Ministry of Internal Affairs reports that a group of 9 students from the Ural Polytechnic Institute (Sverdlovsk) went to Ivdel of the Sverdlovsk region during the winter holidays to make a 300-kilometer ski trek along the route north of the city of Ivdel, the area of ​​Mount Otorten.

January 28 this year the group, having a supply of food with them until February 14, set out on a hike from the village of Burmantovo, located 70 kilometers north of Ivdel mountains.

On February 19, the institute contacted local party and Soviet authorities with a request for assistance in finding the missing students.

Search groups consisting of trained skating athletes from the institute and employees of the Ivdel forced labor camp of the Ministry of Internal Affairs with search dogs were sent to the area of Mount Otorten by helicopter.

On February 26, on the southern slopes of the mountain, a search group found a tent, skis, an ice ax, a camera, blankets and food left by the hikers. The next day four corpses were found in the snow one kilometer from the tent.

The Sverdlovsk Regional Committee of the CPSU created a commission to organize the search and investigate the causes of the deaths of the students.

130

2.
February 21 this year The USSR Ministry of Internal Affairs reported an armed robbery of a department store in the Sunzhensky district of the Chechen-Ingush Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic.

As a result of the operational activities carried out, it was established that this crime was committed by persons from among the residents of the Achkhoy-Martan and Nazran districts of the Chechen-Ingush Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic.

Using this data, in some villages of these areas, the forces of the military unit of the 66th motorized rifle separate division of the Ministry of Internal Affairs carried out an operation to search and detain criminals. March 1 this year The leaders of the predatory armed groups and their participants, 11 people in total, were tracked down and arrested. Among them were: warehouse manager of the Lermontov state farm SAIDOV Magomed, member of the CPSU; who did not work anywhere SAIDOV Hasan, BARAHOEV Makhmud, KUSIKOV Rashid, MUTSOLGOV Abdulmazhid: driver of the logging site MERZHOEV Magomed, loader of the logging site USTARHANOV Selebek and others.

The following items were confiscated from the criminals: a "PPSh" machine gun, a "TT" pistol*, a Nagan revolver, 6 hunting rifles, a small-caliber rifle, more than 200 cartridges, 5 Finnish knives and daggers, as well as 17,100 rubles, 4 savings books with deposits worth 10,000 rubles and a large number of manufactured goods.

(* The PPSh-41 submachine gun was developed in 1940 by designer Georgy Shpagin and at the end of 1940 adopted by the Red Army. It used a 7.62 × 25 mm cartridge. By the end of the war, about 55% of Soviet soldiers were armed with it. The TT semi-automatic pistol was developed in 1930 by Fyodor Tokarev. This pistol was named after the city it was developed and produced (Tula) and its designer (Tokarev), or TT for short. It was developed to meet requirements of the Red Army.)

An investigation is underway.

4 copies
- addressees
- case of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the USSR
- Main police department Ministry of Internal Affairs of the USSR
Kuprikov
Okusheva, March 5, 1959
reg. № 1208 / February 28, 1959
... from March 5, 1959, outgoing №105 from
59 №15/p from March 5, 1959

[amashilu]

Yes ,I would think prisoners are very resourceful and also manipulative.

I get stuck every time when I try to work a model that involves anyone else being at the pass, or was somehow involved moving bodies without leaving any other trace. The raised foot prints going down the slope from the tent leads me to believe that this is the actual hikers footprints , I just don't think anyone could have faked that scenario.

However, that doesn't exclude someone forcing them out of the tent but then raises all the other problems, nothing stolen , how did these other people get there in the cold etc etc.

I agree. I have all the same problems and reservations that you do about the murder theories.

But .... with a few sources reporting that the authorities knew about the deaths well in advance of the search, so that they actually opened the case on February 6, that would give them almost three weeks to clean up and stage the scene. I guess it could be done. A lot could be accomplished in three weeks.

And there are some oddball things reported during that time frame, such as someone seeing a man pulling an injured woman up the hill, or two bodies lying near the tent seen from the air, and even some people sifting through the snow with a large net. I don't know ...

[Ziljoe]

Yes ,I would think prisoners are very resourceful and also manipulative.

I get stuck every time when I try to work a model that involves anyone else being at the pass, or was somehow involved moving bodies without leaving any other trace. The raised foot prints going down the slope from the tent leads me to believe that this is the actual hikers footprints , I just don't think anyone could have faked that scenario.

However, that doesn't exclude someone forcing them out of the tent but then raises all the other problems, nothing stolen , how did these other people get there in the cold etc etc.

I agree. I have all the same problems and reservations that you do about the murder theories.

But .... with a few sources reporting that the authorities knew about the deaths well in advance of the search, so that they actually opened the case on February 6, that would give them almost three weeks to clean up and stage the scene. I guess it could be done. A lot could be accomplished in three weeks.

And there are some oddball things reported during that time frame, such as someone seeing a man pulling an injured woman up the hill, or two bodies lying near the tent seen from the air, and even some people sifting through the snow with a large net. I don't know ...

Agree. I believe the theory about the investigation starting on the 6th if February has been debunked. I can't remember exactly but it was a strong argument.

The problem I have with any staging the scene is , motive, logistics and the knowledge to know what evidence would be left behind, for example, the raised footprints. I don't believe they would know that these footprints would still exist by the time a search party would arrive. Plus there are Mansi in that area so a bunch of people moving dead bodies through woods or up and down slopes would take a bit of effort, they would need tents and food too. They would need 9 people to stage the making of the footprints so why not make a single file trail?

We also have the problem of the vast amount of snow in the ravine and why dump only 4 bodies in the ravine. If the ravine stream was clear and water was flowing, it wouldn't be an ideal place to hide any bodies as the water would flow and keep the bodies exposed . I don't think outsiders could count on knowing 3 meters of snow would fill the ravine.

I haven't heard about someone seeing a man pulling a woman up a hill or the net thing.

If you have links it would be interesting to read.

[amashilu]

Here is one:


https://dyatlovpass.com/syunikaev-2008

Syunikaev: I don’t know, they told us so. Dyatlov, such a strong, ginger guy, healthy, and on top of him, they say, a woman was laying. Her legs and arms were broken. The guy was dragging her to the tent. They were two hundred meters (650 ft) short.

[amashilu]

The other one, about sifting the snow, was in one of the very recent pieces that Teddy posted on this site, within the last 2 weeks. It was by a person who, with a friend, went out on the snow in the DPI area and saw two bodies.  Some soldierly types were also there and told them to get out of there and not come back, so they went back. But, as is human nature, they came back the next day out of curiosity and this time they saw people holding up a kind of hammock or sling and one of them was carefully putting snow on it, as if sifting for something. They were threatened again, so they left.

I am sorry, I will have to look through the 10 or so pieces that Teddy has printed recently to find the correct one for you.

[Axelrod]

I want to say that the interview with Syunikaev in 2021 does not contain the text that Syunikaev actually said.
This is the second text that was edited for publication in the newspaper. This is a heavily modified and shortened version.
The text conveys the meaning, but not the literal flow of words.

In other articles by Varsegovs (interview with Okishev, Shkryabach), this also takes place.
But for translation into English, the information is also distorted, so here it is not very important.

[Ziljoe]

I want to say that the interview with Syunikaev in 2021 does not contain the text that Syunikaev actually said.
This is the second text that was edited for publication in the newspaper. This is a heavily modified and shortened version.
The text conveys the meaning, but not the literal flow of words.

In other articles by Varsegovs (interview with Okishev, Shkryabach), this also takes place.
But for translation into English, the information is also distorted, so here it is not very important.

Thank you Axelrod, I think it's important to get the full context .

Can you get or give the full dialogue? It is a frustration when interviews are edited to perhaps sensationalize the narrative.

[Axelrod]

I have placed it here as separate topic

https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1788.0

Maybe I also have made some changes (abbreviation), neverthelesss my text is closer to original speech.

[amashilu]

I have placed it here as separate topic
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1788.0
Maybe I also have made some changes (abbreviation), neverthelesss my text is closer to original speech.

Thank you, Axelrod. What a fascinating interview that is!

I was a little unclear about the storehouse part at the end. Whose storehouse was it? And the hikers were taken there and beaten? Do you know any more about this?

[Axelrod]

Sorry, labaz becomes usually translated as "storehouse". I changet this word to 'labaz".

[amashilu]

So what I get is:

The hikers were on a special mission.
Unknown to them, they were watched and followed the whole way.
They went overboard with their mission and went somewhere they weren't supposed to go.
The Khanty gave them a horse and led them into an area they shouldn't have gone, where killers were waiting.
The killers took them to the labaz, which was near where the Ravine 4 were found, and beat them to death.

Please let me know if I got any of this right. Thanks!