injuries with no bruises

[tenne]

there is a lot of speculation how there can be injuries with no bruising. Not sure of all the ways but when a person is beat by a bat onto a phonebook placed on the body, there are injuries and not bruises.... for those who have lead a less....... interesting life and do not have first hand knowledge of the criminal side of things. not that i do of course. LOL

[Почемучка]

there is a lot of speculation how there can be injuries with no bruising. Not sure of all the ways but when a person is beat by a bat onto a phonebook placed on the body, there are injuries and not bruises.... for those who have lead a less....... interesting life and do not have first hand knowledge of the criminal side of things. not that i do of course. LOL

Где Вы прочитали про травмы без синяков? Кровоизлияния в ткани - это и есть синяки. Синяками они становятся на какой-то день. В смысле - сине-фиолетового цвета. Почитайте предметную литературу по судебной медицине. Тема - кровоподтеки.
Where did you read about injuries without bruises? Hemorrhages in the tissue are bruises. They become bruises for some day. I mean blue-violet. Read the subject literature on forensic medicine. The topic is bleeding.

[tenne]

Well this site has a photo of LD's chest (may she rip), most of her ribs were found to be snapped with one penetrating the heart. No bruises can be seen or were recorded except one on her thigh.

NTB is recorded as having a bruise on the upper lip and his extensive skull fracture had no tissue damage to explain an impact.

 the pathologist was quite clear that the ravine four suffered high energy bone trauma without any sign of tissue damage from an impact. Someone below posted his view that skin doesn't bruise in extreme cold

[Почемучка]

Well this site has a photo of LD's chest (may she rip), most of her ribs were found to be snapped with one penetrating the heart. No bruises can be seen or were recorded except one on her thigh.

NTB is recorded as having a bruise on the upper lip and his extensive skull fracture had no tissue damage to explain an impact.

 the pathologist was quite clear that the ravine four suffered high energy bone trauma without any sign of tissue damage from an impact. Someone below posted his view that skin doesn't bruise in extreme cold

Когда судебно-медицинский эксперт решал вопрос о прижизненности или посмертности именно тех переломов, что Вы назвали, то он отправлял на гистологию фрагменты костей и тканей, к которым врастали кости. Гистология именно и разглядывает в микроскоп упомянутые Вами синяки.

When the forensic expert decided the question of the survival or postmortem of precisely those fractures that you named, he sent fragments of bones and tissues to which the bones had grown into for histology. The histology also examines the bruises mentioned by you in a microscope.

[tenne]

the bruise was on her thigh, not her chest, not sure what you are trying to say. whilst I understand you believe you are very knowledgeable, your replies are barely understandable

[GlennM]

Bats, phone books and a damsel in distress. I swear the Yeti theory is tame by comparison! We need to go easy in this stuff, it is to good to use all at once.

[Почемучка]

the bruise was on her thigh, not her chest, not sure what you are trying to say. whilst I understand you believe you are very knowledgeable, your replies are barely understandable

Ну это потому что Вы - еще не очень давно в теме. Изучите как определяет гистология прижизненность травм. В Канаде - судебным медикам этот термин известен. Потому что латынь - понимают медики всего мира. Найдите свою литературу на 1959 год. Почитайте Ваших авторитетов и обнаружите - что они такие же умные как наши...

Well, this is because you have not been in the subject for a very long time. Learn how histology determines the lifetime of injuries. In Canada, this term is known to forensic physicians. Because Latin is understood by doctors all over the world. Find your literature for 1959. Read your authorities and you will find that they are as smart as ours...

[tenne]

No, it's because you are very vague and meandering in your replies and do not address the actual question until it is very pointed and direct.

 I am interested in hearing the facts, so I am making sure to get the answer out of you that was the original question.

 Sadly it is more and more apparent that it really isn't worth the effort and you prefer to prove the old adage, it's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it and remove all doubt

with that said, I won't be responding to any more of your posts until they are pertinent

[Почемучка]

No, it's because you are very vague and meandering in your replies and do not address the actual question until it is very pointed and direct.
 

То есть Вы даете понять, что слово латинского происхождения Вам - не знакомо? Все медицинские термины во всех странах одинаково пишутся. И произносятся. Вам было совершенно внятно сказано, что судебный медик отправлял части сломанных ребер и это зафиксировано в документе - на гистологию. Этот анализ заключается в том, что через микроскоп рассматривают ткани и пытаются найти именно клетки крови. Кровь течет если человек - еще жив. Это свойства крови. Вам как внучке зверолова - это должно быть понятнее чем кому-либо. Просто из практики.

That is, you make it clear that the word of Latin origin is not familiar to you? All medical terms in all countries are spelled the same way. And they are pronounced. You were quite clearly told that the forensic doctor sent parts of broken ribs and this is recorded in the document - for histology. This analysis consists in examining tissues through a microscope and trying to find exactly the blood cells. Blood flows if the person is still alive. These are the properties of blood. You as the granddaughter of a trapper - this should be clearer than anyone else. Just out of practice.

[tenne]

Bats, phone books and a damsel in distress. I swear the Yeti theory is tame by comparison! We need to go easy in this stuff, it is to good to use all at once.

or we could combine it all together and say that Yeti used a phone book, bats and started an avalanche, then a wolverine chased them out of the tent and the end is that special forces killed them after, then everyone is right

[GlennM]

Ouch, that is funny. Now about those injuries. It is not simple if you accept the dead were taken away, thawed, dressed, undressed redressed and taken back to the woods to be discovered. That whole form of evidence is contaminated. We need to look elsewhere, I think.

[tenne]

Ouch, that is funny. Now about those injuries. It is not simple if you accept the dead were taken away, thawed, dressed, undressed redressed and taken back to the woods to be discovered. That whole form of evidence is contaminated. We need to look elsewhere, I think.

I agree there is nothing simple about any of it and I think that really points to a cover up. I live in an area where every spring and early winter, people are killed in avalanches, get lost and freeze to death etc. sadly its pretty much norm here (I will state very very few are locals, they have too much respect for the dangers to take the chances that the tourists do) but its always very simple to see what happened. Every northern country is familiar with these things so for it to be so baffling is the strange part, IMO

[Ziljoe]

Ouch, that is funny. Now about those injuries. It is not simple if you accept the dead were taken away, thawed, dressed, undressed redressed and taken back to the woods to be discovered. That whole form of evidence is contaminated. We need to look elsewhere, I think.

I agree there is nothing simple about any of it and I think that really points to a cover up. I live in an area where every spring and early winter, people are killed in avalanches, get lost and freeze to death etc. sadly its pretty much norm here (I will state very very few are locals, they have too much respect for the dangers to take the chances that the tourists do) but its always very simple to see what happened. Every northern country is familiar with these things so for it to be so baffling is the strange part, IMO

With the recent posts, I am wondering if the cover up is to do with the cold war. The mystery was escalated to cause confusion to the west . We have inherited a complex story. Full of contradictions and pre and post investigation statements. What we have presented with is a mismash of events?.

[tenne]

I think another equally important reason is why, if as it looks like there is a cover up, would the soviet government bother to try to cover it up. Not how but why? from my very limited understanding of the social conditions then, people vanished all the time and if a person asked questions they also vanished.

[Ziljoe]

With what's been suggested, if I understand, correctly, the Russian were aware that the Americans were listening in to communications.  The Russians would just let the CIA or whoever think they had secret facilities in that region and let the west waste it's time looking for secret rocket bases or whatever. The U2 spy plane's wear flying over Russia at that time. This fits with the stories of objects in the sky and glowing lights. Perhaps they were told to say such things. Not too much and not too little. The dyatlov incident was just used to waste the west resources. That's the why, just a big game that I'm sure they continue to this day. A possibility and this is why it's secret to this day. 

[GlennM]

Personally, I think the death of the hikers in '59 is far below the cold,war horizon. If anything, the West would conclude they died because of a missile, a dirty bomb or something of the sort to raise eyebrows.I am not aware that any of that occurred. No, this was nine people caught out in the snow. Cold war misdirection is spinning it the wrong way.

[Ziljoe]

My point about the the cold war , which was well established in 1959 , is that everything that happened to the hikers is true and a simple death by nature.

It is the later writings, details and contradictions that may have been used to misdirect the U2 spy planes. One was shot down in 1960 south of the Urals. Only a thought. It is in later interviews we hear the talk by the investigator that he saw lights in the sky.  Just a thought.

Anyway, back to OP.

[Ehtnisba]

Ouch, that is funny. Now about those injuries. It is not simple if you accept the dead were taken away, thawed, dressed, undressed redressed and taken back to the woods to be discovered. That whole form of evidence is contaminated. We need to look elsewhere, I think.

I agree there is nothing simple about any of it and I think that really points to a cover up. I live in an area where every spring and early winter, people are killed in avalanches, get lost and freeze to death etc. sadly its pretty much norm here (I will state very very few are locals, they have too much respect for the dangers to take the chances that the tourists do) but its always very simple to see what happened. Every northern country is familiar with these things so for it to be so baffling is the strange part, IMO

This! I have grown up in snowy mountain. Even for groups I have not seen CRIMINAL investigation opened and my dad is a close friend of the mountain lifeguards chief. Never he has mentioned investigation. Mountain tragedies are just such. Investigators, odd services  hasn't roamed the hills and  he know these hill since 70s when my country also was part of the same Eatern block. We have irradiated soldiers from digging in the skirts of the mountain and this is still military restricted zone but again nothing criminal to be investigated here. Sloppy storage or sloppy uraniun mine. Dyatlov Pass is not fitting only seeing those poor people post mortem pics :(((

[GlennM]

Absinthe, good observation. Praise.

[Почемучка]

With what's been suggested, if I understand, correctly, the Russian were aware that the Americans were listening in to communications.  The Russians would just let the CIA or whoever think they had secret facilities in that region and let the west waste it's time looking for secret rocket bases or whatever. The U2 spy plane's wear flying over Russia at that time. This fits with the stories of objects in the sky and glowing lights. Perhaps they were told to say such things. Not too much and not too little. The dyatlov incident was just used to waste the west resources. That's the why, just a big game that I'm sure they continue to this day. A possibility and this is why it's secret to this day.

Сэр Ziljoe - у MI6 ( Secret Intelligence Service, SIS/Military Intelligence) есть вакансия в штате. Не желаете роль Дэниэла Крейга?

Западу очень сложно с российскими сказками, мифами и слухами. Отгадайте, почему Россия не сопротивляется древней европейской байке - что у нас медведи по улицам ходят? Хорошо бы вспоминать в этом месте очень тонкий вывод Отто фон Бисмарка.
Со своей немецкой колокольни - он оценил это глупостью. Но во всех русских сказках - побеждают и выходят в герои: Иванушки - дураки...

Sir Ziljoe - MI6 (Secret Intelligence Service, SIS/Military Intelligence) has a vacancy on staff. Do you want the role of Daniel Craig?

It is very difficult for the West with Russian fairy tales, myths and rumors. Guess why Russia does not resist the ancient European tale - that we have bears walking the streets? It would be good to remember in this place a very subtle conclusion of Otto von Bismarck.
From his German belfry - he judged it to be stupidity. But in all Russian fairy tales - they win and become heroes: Ivanushki are fools ...
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

П.С. Специально для Secret Intelligence Service

Незадолго до гибели группы Дятлова в горах Карпаты в СССР погибло 9 человек украинских туристов из группы общей численностью 15 человек. Трагедия датируется 7 февраля 1958 года. При прохождении маршрута группа вызвала на себя лавину. Тела нашли к лету.

Немного спустя гибели группы Дятлова  в горах Карпаты в СССР в лыжном походе погибло еще большее число туристов. Дата трагедии - 20 февраля 1962.  Они тоже замерзли. Это была группа молдавских туристов, причем поход был инструкторский и тренировочный. Причина была - неверная оценка погодных условий и отсутствие достаточного количества опытных руководителей. Об этой истории - мало кто знает и шумихи не было. Тот кто на месте бывает - видит только обелиски вдоль тропы. Из 35 человек - погибло 20. Одного из погибших нашли только в мае. Он попал под сорванную им лавину. Все другие - просто замерзли сидя на рюкзаках.

Отгадайте с трех раз - отчего эти трагедии не зависли в Российской истории на века?


P.S. Specially for Secret Intelligence Service

Shortly before the death of the Dyatlov group in the Carpathians in the USSR, 9 Ukrainian tourists from a group of 15 people in total died. The tragedy dates back to February 7, 1958. When passing the route, the group caused an avalanche. The bodies were found by the summer.

A little after the death of the Dyatlov group in the Carpathian mountains in the USSR, an even greater number of tourists died on a ski trip. The date of the tragedy is February 20, 1962. They also froze. It was a group of Moldovan tourists, and the trip was instructor and training. The reason was - an incorrect assessment of weather conditions and the lack of a sufficient number of experienced leaders. Few people know about this story and there was no hype. Anyone who happens to be on the spot sees only obelisks along the trail. Of the 35 people, 20 died. One of the dead was found only in May. He fell under the avalanche he had torn down. All the others - just froze sitting on backpacks.

Guess three times - why did these tragedies not hang in Russian history for centuries?

[RMK]

Отгадайте с трех раз - отчего эти трагедии не зависли в Российской истории на века?

Guess three times - why did these tragedies not hang in Russian history for centuries?

Because there were survivors, who could explain how the tragedies took place?

Потому что там были выжившие, кто мог бы объяснить, как происходили трагедии?

[GlennM]

...and what can we learn from the survivors that is germane to the DPI?

[Почемучка]

Because there were survivors, who could explain how the tragedies took place?

Потому что там были выжившие, кто мог бы объяснить, как происходили трагедии?

Не совсем так. Ответ в воспоминаниях пилота американского разведывательного самолета U-2 летчика ВВС США Фрэнсиса Пауэрса, которого сбили в небе над  Свердловской областью 1 мая 1960.
Сбитый летчик Пауэрс выжил, был приговорён советским судом за шпионаж к 10 годам лишения свободы. Наказание отбывал в тюрьме «Владимирский централ». Через полтора года его обменяли на советского разведчика Рудольфа Абеля, разоблачённого в США. И он жил долго и счастлив. И написал свои мемуары. Очень полезные с точек зрения разведок всех стран.

Not certainly in that way. The answer is in the memoirs of the pilot of the American U-2 reconnaissance aircraft, US Air Force pilot Francis Powers, who was shot down in the sky over the Sverdlovsk region on May 1, 1960.
The downed pilot Powers survived, was sentenced by a Soviet court for espionage to 10 years in prison. He served his sentence in the Vladimirsky Central prison. A year and a half later, he was exchanged for the Soviet intelligence officer Rudolf Abel, who was exposed in the United States. And he lived a long and happy life. And he wrote his memoirs. Very useful from the point of view of intelligence of all countries.

[GlennM]

Injuries with no bruises...this is what we are discussing, yes?

[Почемучка]

Injuries with no bruises...this is what we are discussing, yes?

Так их не было, травм без синяков. Кто хорошо изучил материалы дела - даже не выдвигает такой тезис для дискуссии.

Поэтому ушли на верхний уровень рассматривания причин, почему гибель туристов группы Дятлова - стала такой долгоиграющей пластинкой.
Насчет Карпат. Это наши границы. Там все для иностранной разведки было прозрачнее чем в глубине СССР. Там и не строили никогда интересных для иностранной разведки секретных объектов обороны. Так делает каждая страна.
Истории с исчезновением геологов, туристов или других мирных граждан всегда раздуваются, если событие происходит в глухомани, наших медвежьих углах СССР. Группа Коровиной  - как пример.
Сбитый Пауэрс и рассказывал что их головной болью - было проникнуть дальше в глубь СССР. Ну почему бы нашей стороне не дать им повод для таких развлечений. Пойти туда, не знаю куда. Принести то, не знаю что. Это была очень классная стратегия.
ЦРУ-шные аналитики строили логические построения из фотографии в нашем журнале "Огонек", британские учителя школы из Кеттеринга следили за эфиром и рассчитывали траектории пуска наших ракет. Ну как не помочь им с информацией? Блюдечко с голубою каемочкою.

So they were not, injuries without bruises. Those who have studied the materials of the case well do not even put forward such a thesis for discussion.

Therefore, they went to the upper level of considering the reasons why the death of the tourists of the Dyatlov group became such a long-playing record.
About the Carpathians. These are our boundaries. Everything was more transparent for foreign intelligence there than in the depths of the USSR. They never built secret defense facilities that were interesting for foreign intelligence. This is what every country does.
Stories about the disappearance of geologists, tourists or other civilians are always inflated if the event takes place in the wilderness, our bearish corners of the USSR. Korovina's group - as an example.
Downed Powers and said that their headache was to penetrate further into the depths of the USSR. Well, why don't our side give them a reason for such entertainment. I don't know where to go. Bring what, I don't know. It was a very cool strategy.
CIA analysts built logical constructions from photographs in our Ogonyok magazine, British school teachers from Kettering watched the air and calculated the launch trajectories of our missiles. Well, how not to help them with information? A saucer with a blue rim.