November 21, 2024, 09:25:45 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Avalanche theory  (Read 20903 times)

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March 24, 2024, 03:36:00 PM
Reply #30
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WinterLeia


I definitely believe that the answer is somehow probably weather or nature related. I certainly consider a slab avalanche to be much more likely than murder, but it would still be an unusual occurrence that would require the hikers to have  created the conditions that caused it. They even state that and show that photograph, which as far as I’m concerned, shows so little that I do not know how they can tell they’re even setting up the tent and not digging the labaz. I can accept they’re setting up the tent. But it certainly doesn’t prove that they created a slab that came down on them. Furthermore, I’m not even sure if G & P did any field work, other than go out and take a picture of a site two miles away from the tent to prove that a slab avalanche was possible at the tent. Also, G & P evidently, didn’t realize there was a difference between slab avalanches and regular ones, because they took a picture of a site where they can happen naturally to compare to one where the only time in recorded history one happened, ostensibly being February 1/2, 1959, it was due to human intervention. I know that Dr. Borzenkov did do field work, though. And computer models are great. But they don’t take the place of fieldwork. You can make anything happen on a computer if you put the right parameters in. They should match what exists in the real world, though, and the only way you’re going to confirm that is to compare them to the actual scene you’re trying to set up. In addition, they don’t even release the raw data, so other people can run their own models and confirm it. Why? What are they afraid of people finding out?

I don’t having a problem with people endorsing a theory. But the evidence in this case is just too contaminated and too fragmentary to really say that this definitely happened or that definitely happened. It’s even worse because we don’t even know what clues belong. Did the hikers create the footprints or was it the searchers? What did the tent really look like before it was messed with? Could Luda have really walked away with one of her ribs piercing her heart or is that just a medical aberration that happened once or twice?  And I really feel like that no matter how they feel about the theory they should at least acknowledge the weaknesses in it. That they try to prop it up and say that the case is solved is the biggest thing that makes me suspicious of it.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2024, 03:42:50 PM by WinterLeia »
 
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March 26, 2024, 07:31:56 AM
Reply #31
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GlennM


Making a theory evidenced by forum data is the de facto method of participation. Explorers like Teddy, contribute materially to the forum through actual research. However, the old saw " the pen is mightier than the sword" is certainly true in our situation. We lean on those first hand accounts in the diaries and mourn what the diaries don't say.

When you think about it, they were pretty good at keeping records, so this unknown compelling force interfered with what should have been a spontaneous entry in any diary.
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

March 26, 2024, 08:01:15 AM
Reply #32
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Axelrod


From an interview with rescuer Karelin in 2020 (in movie with Teddy and Vietnamka):
He arrived on February 27 at the Dyatlos pass.

[–] 60 years have passed. Are you still wondering what happened there?

[KARELIN:] 61 years have already passed. But the interest does not fade. The state is obliged to give an answer to relatives. The fact that some hypotheses are offered to us makes us smile. Especially from various prosecutors who tell us: “Yes, it’s an avalanche!” Even before this hike, I was caught in an avalanche in winter in Altai. I knew what an avalanche was. I knew what traces there would be from the avalanche. I flew with the first helicopter on February 27 to the place of death. There are absolutely no traces of an avalanche there. No traces!



Из интервью с поисковиком Карелиным в 2020 году (он с 27 февраля был на перевале):

[–] Прошло 60 лет. Вам до сих пор интересно, что там произошло?


[КАРЕЛИН:] Прошёл уже 61 год. А интерес не угасает. Государство обязано дать ответ родственникам. То, что нам предлагают какие-то гипотезы, они вызывают у нас усмешку. Особенно от различных прокурорских деятелей, которые нам говорят: «Да это лавина!» Вот ещё до этого похода я зимой на Алтае попадал в лавину. Я знал, что такое лавина. Я знал, какие следы будут от лавины. Я с первым вертолётом прилетел 27 февраля на место гибели. Никаких следов лавины там совершенно нет. Никаких следов!

 

March 26, 2024, 11:26:34 AM
Reply #33
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Ziljoe


There would be little or no evidence of an avalanche after 3 weeks. I believe avalanches at 1079 , 5-700 meters along from the tent have been filmed but natural and disappeared quickly.

The variables on what is understood to be an avalanche vary considerably. I don't think the injuries were caused at the tent , even by a snow slip or slide . However I think there's a possibility of them leaving the tent because of some sort of small snow collapse/ slap slide. 

Even for those of us who believe in a snow slab , I think most of , if not all are arguing an avalanche. There is a difference. The difference is that the tent collapsed and those inside divided to exit using a knife, upon exiting , the decision was made to leave the slope and head to the woods. It is at the woods that injuries possibly occurred.
 

March 26, 2024, 05:42:21 PM
Reply #34
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gunmat


I will comment on this, surely, in full extent. When I get the time.Seems nobody here have a real understanding of avalanche. Be my guest when I comment on this. The lecture  will be gratis. What G&P has published is two publications, talking about very old knowledge about avalanche, as if it was a "new Scientific" theory. The main part of their theory is something I learnee very well 30 years ago when I was working with a construction to protect housing areas against avalanches. It is not science, but very old knowledge based on observations, not on fancy mathematic equations. The only  new in their publications is a mathematic argument claiming an avalanche could be released. But even the mathematic arguments are operated with variables that are unstable.So both their publications are for educational purposes, nothing else. They have nothing to do with the happening in 1959. Stay tuned, atleast for 14 days, I have other things to do.
 
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March 28, 2024, 09:54:15 PM
Reply #35
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WinterLeia


It sounds extremely strange to me to believe in a theory because there’s little to no proof it happened three weeks after it happened, especially because you would find the same exact thing if an avalanche didn’t happen. The avalanche theory benefits from a hallmark of conspiracy theories. It’s impossible to prove a negative. So what they’re doing is a strawman’s argument. Short and succinctly, it’s: “You can’t prove it didn’t happen. Therefore, it did.”

Regarding their argument, though, they are using the general topography of the area, the weather, and the snow accumulation to argue a very localized event, whereupon the stepped geography that they highlight in their study and the nature of the type of avalanche that it was, indicates that characteristics in the immediate vicinity of any spot can have differing probabilities of a possible avalanche (or whatever you want to call it), because we’re not talking about traditional avalanches and it isn’t the Alps. The slope is still not steep enough and the snow accumulation not great enough that you can be looking for causes of an avalanche much farther away from where it happened. If that was the case, then there would definitely be more evidence of an avalanche three weeks after it happened.

They finally do broach the specifics in their rebuttal by stating that their theory is not the final word because the slab would have been softer, the slope not as steep, it was not undercut from below, and the trigger was different. But then they end it by saying that the area is avalanche prone. Except, of course, that nobody was arguing about the general area, and their remarks about the specific vicinity are extremely important and possibly very detrimental to their theory, considering it’s already skating along the edge of barely possible.
 
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March 29, 2024, 09:27:25 AM
Reply #36
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gunmat


I have read your comment and find it serious and with common sense. First i wanted to stay away from this site due to easter, but your writings inspired me to go all in. your comments are sustainable and honest and therefore deserve an answer. Will sit down and write my answer in a few hours. Stay tuned. I am now ready to post my writings under a new Topic Named "Gone with the wind".
« Last Edit: March 29, 2024, 03:19:52 PM by gunmat »
 

March 29, 2024, 02:45:05 PM
Reply #37
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eurocentric


Would a secondary avalanche be likely up there? If not then the hikers might reasonably feel that the danger had passed and dig out their tent and spend the night there, a far more survivable choice than the alternative.

For them to abandon their tent I think it more likely a slab slip, and the risk of a further one sliding down with higher velocity would make remaining there high risk.

But a slab slip should leave large chunks of snow crust inside the tent. The pressure of this slippage pressing against the tent's uphill side would tear it apart and allow this inside, and yet that side was undamaged and there was even a coat stuffed into a large hole.

It would deform the shape and positioning of the tent and do rather more damage than snap one upright bamboo pole.

If it is said to be capable of flailing chests then it would not spare fragile watch crystals, cameras, binoculars, spectacles or the pressed steel stove.

And the void left above the tent by this slippage, a great scar in the snow crust, would take some filling, and to do so with freshly fallen and windblown snow, all while leaving footprints uncovered, and fool investigators and mountain men when standing on this air-laded snow versus the surrounding crust and escape all photographic detection seems highly improbable.

The purveyors of this theory are like two sprinters who near the finish line in what they think is a simple 100m sprint, "we got this!" they exclaim as they punch the air in victory, but they are competing in an 800m hurdle race, and no single runner, or theory, manages to clear every single hurdle and cross the finish line.

And it's unlikely any ever will, not unless a third party accidentally or deliberately killed the hikers and an authenticated deathbed confession emerged or some State declassification of damning documents occurred.

So I don't personally think anything can be gained from arguing the science of whether the event was possible, it's more a question of all the missing physical evidence in an aftermath.

I could suggest, as example, that a helicopter might have crashed on the mountain, and it injured the hikers and damaged the tent, and some cover-up took place. At face value it's plausible, it probably won't be without precedence, but minus any surface evidence it would remain as fanciful as this theory.

Show me a tent damaged on the uphill force-resisting side, show me damage inside the tent, show me snow crust in there, show me photographic evidence of a depression in the snow surface above the tent and matching ob's from witnesses and I'd be sold.
But there was none of this. Nada.
My DPI approach - logic, probability and reason.
 

March 29, 2024, 03:36:20 PM
Reply #38
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gunmat


Back to the same topic: Avalanches.
First, some introductory remarks. G&P's avalanche theory was touted as Breaking New Science. This is nonsense. Their theory consisted of very old knowledge about avalanches, spiced up with a mathematical argumentation claiming that one avalanche could have occurred.
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Their "theory" about snow layering, with a weak layer between two solid layers, is not “new science” but established old knowledge and common sense, based on observations. I received a thorough introduction to this knowledge while working on avalanche protection outside my hometown more than 30 years ago. Their mathematical argumentation is based on what I would call unstable variables. Snow does not have a specific friction angle, and therefore does not have a specific friction coefficient. The friction angle depends on the consistency and temperature of the snow, and the age of the snow after falling, and by transport along the surface by wind.
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I base my argumentation on my own practical experience from engineering work with avalanche protection, and on open publications from the Norwegian Geotechnical Institute (NGI). First, some more background information. In the region of Norway where I come from, there are between 8,000 and 10,000 large and small avalanches each year. In the last 20 years, 46 people have died in avalanches there. On average, 2 to 3 people die each year in avalanches. Many of these avalanches are documented and measured. Therefore, NGI has a completely unique base of experience to draw on when investigating avalanche danger. Those who perish are tourists from France, the Czech Republic, Austria, Germany, to name a few. In two cases, locals have been caught in avalanches and survived, and they were young people practicing risk sports on the snow-covered mountainsides. People living in this region have avalanche danger as part of their collective consciousness. If you were to show pictures from the Dyatlov Pass to some of those living in this region and claim that the Dyatlov group was killed by an avalanche, they would ask you what you've been smoking.
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The steepness of the slope is the main thing we look at to see if there might be an avalanche. Some people say, "Sure, but there are other things involved in an avalanche." To that, I say, "Come join our talk." It's the steepness of the slope that matters for all kinds of avalanches. Pressure, pulling, and sideways forces happen because of the slope angle, and is only some spice on top of the established knowledge. When the snow moves down the slope super slow, the tension at the upper part gets big enough and the avalanche starts. Yep, when the slope is at a certain angle, the snow moves really slowly downhill. That's what makes those forces happen. If the pressure from below isn't strong enough to balance the tension at the upper part, the avalanche starts.
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A loose (weak) layer of snow forms during weather changes. For instance, it might be cold with strong winds for a while, then the wind dies down and snow falls to a certain extent. After that, the wind picks up again, and the fresh layer of snow gets covered with snow that has blown from afar and has a higher density. If the top layer becomes thick and heavy enough, the weak layer may collapse, triggering an avalanche. Another, more dangerous weak layer can form without significant weather changes but requires continuous severe cold with little wind. This layer consists of frost rime on top of the snowpack and can be more than 1 cm thick. The layer is known as facet crystals stacked on top of each other, resembling small shot glasses. If new snow built up on top and the weight becomes significant enough, these crystals shatter, acting like a ball bearing layer for the top layer to slide out. Such a weak layer is persistent and very difficult to identify without digging in the snow, unlike a layer of loose snow, which consolidates after a certain time. I find it quite surprising that G&P are putting all their efforts into supporting their theory with a thick layer of loose snow covered by a heavier, harder top layer, considering the temperatures in the Ural region during January and February. In the end, all these specific assumptions are built into the statistics for terrain slopes that trigger avalanches. So the dangerous slopes cover all kind of preconditions.
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Back to the slope angle of the top layer. According to the data I have, the critical threshold for triggering avalanches is approximately 25 degrees. At 25 degrees, about 1% of all avalanches are triggered. Using the beta distribution on the figures I have, the probability is reduced to 1 per mil at a slope angle of 23 degrees. At a slope angle of 20 degrees, the statistical probability is virtually zero. (Probability is a number between 0 and 1, but in everyday language, we talk about 0 to 100%.)
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However, this isn't really the most interesting part. What should be of interest is that avalanches on slopes less than 30 degrees require very specific conditions. It's not useful to search for a slope angle between 20 and 30 degrees to determine if an avalanche can release. For an avalanche to release at 20 to 25 degrees, the slope must converge to a steeper incline below. Only then does the tension at 20-25 degrees become significant. On a mountainside where the incline doesn't converge but remains consistently less than 18 degrees, no avalanche releases, regardless of weak layers, and regardless of whether someone has dug a pit in the snow. The slope where the tent was pitched is between 15 and 16 degrees. No avalanche runs there. There were no avalanche. The authentic picture from the scene proves it. If an avalanche had hit the tent, it would have been completely flattened. Neither ski poles nor skis, used as anchors for the tent guy ropes, would have remained standing. The picture tells everything. Igor Dyatlov and his friends' tent was not hit by an avalanche.
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G&P have presented their theory in two publications. In their first publication, they state that they obtained digital terrain data from multiple sources. The issue with their references is that digital terrain data with elevation references from this area is only available from the NASA product SRTM3. Towards the end of my comment, I will thoroughly revisit this and other points I have mentioned here. In their second publication, they claim to have laser scanned the area with a resolution of 9 cm. I have requested their point cloud, which forms the basis of their model, without success. If one claims science, it is common courtesy in academia to release all models used in an analysis so that others can test the hypotheses independently. The point cloud G&P claim to have used should be made available to this forum for further study immediately. The points must be located in UTM zone 41. (As Cartesian coordinates)
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So, let's take a slightly deeper dive into G&P's theory. They argue that the slope above the tent was much steeper than 20 degrees, implicitly suggesting that an avalanche could have been triggered. However, they then abandon this line of reasoning and claim that a layer of snow built up over the tent, slid off, and fell down, trapping the Dyatlov group beneath the canvas. Willing minds support this and add that the Dyatlov group cut their way out of the tent to escape. Such argumentative techniques do not belong in academia. But let's take them at their words.
They have an illustration showing a wind blowing across the tent and leaving snow above it. This does not align well with weather observations. The tent was oriented in a north-south direction, and the wind came from the northwest. The wind would have hit the side wall/roof of the tent at an angle between 35 and 75 degrees. This can be assumed even if the orientation of the tent is not precisely specified and even if the wind passing over the shoulder above may have veered more to the east. The canvas would have deflected the wind, creating a wind flux along the tent, not across it. The illustration they used is only credible if there is a wind blowing at an ideal angle to the tent, with ideal wind speed, for very many hours. The wind speed was about 8-10 meters per second. The illustration also shows an extremely thick "weak layer." Where did it come from, and when was it formed under the weather conditions prevailing for several days before the disaster?
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It is impossible that a small avalanche could have caused the injuries the victims had. A larger avalanche would have swept away everything in its path. So, what is the purpose of G&P's theory? It does not prove that a small avalanche occurred, nor does it prove with high enough confidence that an avalanche could occur. The risk of avalanches increases with weather changes from colder to warmer conditions, combined with strong winds, regardless of the layering of the snow on the mountainside. When temperatures rise sharply from -5 to -10 degrees Celsius or colder and approach 0 degrees Celsius and above, alarm bells ring for those living in avalanche-prone areas. The opposite occurred in Dyatlov Pass in February 1959. Temperatures dropped significantly, reaching as low as -30 degrees Celsius.
The G&P theory should be removed from the table and filed under the title " For educational purposes.”
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In their first publication, G&P stated that they had downloaded terrain data, citing several sources. However, only the NASA product SRTM3 is available from this source. I have downloaded data from there and built a terrain model. It is too coarse to definitively characterize the terrain but can serve as an illustration. The image "SLOPE" depicts the slope of the terrain in the area. Approximately 180 meters south of the tent, the terrain slope can reach up to 30 degrees at a few points, which could be shown in a finer mesh model. Above the tent, the slope can reach up to 25-26 degrees, but if an avalanche were to occur there, it would have a reach that would sweep away anything protruding from the snow and flatten the tent.
The images mod1 to mod3 show the model from different angles. Image mod5 is created after the coarse model is broken down into squares of 25 cm, and all dimensions of the tent are incorporated into the model. Nothing is drawn by hand. With a fine mesh model, one would be able to create a completely realistic depiction of the situation, both before and after the collapse of the tent.
The images "standard" and "lag" illustrate the forces at play in an avalanche.
The image STREKK shows the stetch in the toplayer right before avalanche.
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Regarding G&P's theory, I have two more things to say. A theory claiming to be based on science must be both valid and reliable, and it must be supported by observations. Secondly, all models used in the study must be open to scrutiny by others, so they can be tested by independent individuals. For it to be considered scientific, the calculation model itself must be thoroughly explained, and the detailed terrain model they claim as a basis must be released. Without this happening, their publications cannot be regarded as serious.

























« Last Edit: March 30, 2024, 03:48:23 AM by amashilu »
 
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March 29, 2024, 07:08:54 PM
Reply #39
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WinterLeia


A secondary avalanche would be next to impossible. Even people who believe the theory say that. It’s not a place where avalanches occur naturally. The slope is too shallow and the fierce winds keep the snow from accumulating. Unfortunately, though, sometimes humans can inadvertently trigger an avalanche in areas where they would not have occurred otherwise, which is what some people think happened that night. I obviously don’t agree, but setting that aside for the sake of argument, once the slab fell on them, there would have been no other snow for a second avalanche to draw from. The snow that did fall on them came from them digging into the snow to set up the tent. Now, I don’t know that they would have necessarily known that. They still could have thought another avalanche was possible and fled down the slope to the forest. But I’m always left wondering with this theory how long would they have sat there in freezing cold temperatures and severely underdressed while nothing else happened.
 
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March 29, 2024, 08:06:58 PM
Reply #40
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GlennM


If the hikers found a natural hillock on the mountain side and if they dug down on the leeward side in order to level their tent, then there would be a situation where blowing snow could accumulate on the crest of the hillock. Perhaps the buildup of wind driven snow on the hillock and the excavation of snow to level the tent is all that is necessary for a collapse onto the tent.

The slab slip would be sufficient to cause them to evacuate the tent. The uncertainty of whether another larger snow slide would follow might be sufficient reason to leave the tent until morning opting for the relative safety of the forest below.
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

March 29, 2024, 08:21:37 PM
Reply #41
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GlennM


We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 
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April 04, 2024, 08:09:26 AM
Reply #42
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WinterLeia


I do not believe they would have sat out there for that long, especially if they had injured companions or something else went catastrophically wrong, as must have happened if the injuries didn’t come from the avalanche that started it all. And as I stated previously, proving that an avalanche wouldn’t have left many traces three weeks after it happened still leaves you with little evidence that it happened. There are also weapons that could have been tested that leave no mark on the environment. The government could have killed everyone and staged the scene. You could say these are highly improbable events and there are elements that argue against them. And to that I would agree. But the same thing is true of an avalanche on that slope at that particular spot. The investigation was right in 1959 to leave it at an unknown compelling force, an unsatisfactory answer, I admit, but the only one that was possible due to the lack of evidence. To embrace a theory based on a computer model that showed something wasn’t impossible in certain areas where a slope was not as steep as 30 degrees, but not at that particular place, with little evidence to support it and having to tiptoe around the evidence that refuted it (like saying that the avalanche missed the entrance, with no evidence to support that, except that an avalanche would have flattened the entrance, which they know didn’t happen) is as bad as Ivanov stating that a fireball attacked Semyon, Luda, and Nicolai, because none of the burned trees were in a concentric circle and they were the only ones injured. That is not evidence of that happening. And it doesn’t matter how the evidence is lost; whether it’s covered up, trampled all over, or through natural processes. All that matters is the evidence is lost and you cannot base any theories on it, because you don’t have any evidence to indicate that such occurred.

Now,there is a phenomenon known as Occam’s Razor to use in such situations, which is largely the reason why the original investigation was comfortable in saying it was an unknown compelling force rather than murder or military testing, as those would be far less likely in such an environment and would require far more of an explanation regarding where the evidence went, motive, and all that. Nature isn’t really as complicated as human beings. But it is powerful and able to overcome even the strongest, most experienced, and most prepared humans. But when it comes to nature or weather related causes, an avalanche certainly does not follow Occam’s Razor when you need computer models, complicated formulas, and pictures to even suggest such a thing is possible, and with none of that applied to the case at hand. Nothing about that indicates that the newer investigation got any closer to solving the Dyatlov Pass mystery than an unknown compelling force. That was and should continue to be the official theory, and the fact that they were willing to compromise the fidelity of their investigation based on such evidence indicates an ulterior motive to me, which puts the theory they are backing into serious questions, as well as any other information they pass on.



 

April 04, 2024, 10:01:22 AM
Reply #43
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gunmat


"The tent of Dyatlov and his friends was not hit by an avalanche. A finely-tuned data model would provide even more precise information from the scene. Up until now, people are arguing without having a clear picture of this terrain, as if words alone are sufficient to progress in the investigation. Avalanche deposits do not disappear within a couple of weeks. Next, I want to draw attention to the short distance the group traveled on February 1, 1959. It's very peculiar that this hasn't attracted more attention."
 
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April 04, 2024, 11:19:53 AM
Reply #44
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GlennM


It may be too simplistic to look at an avalanche( read slab slide) in isolation. They were in crazy cold, windy, perhaps foggy weather with horizontally blowing snow. The standard canon is they cut their way out, but consider that if the tears originated spontaneously, there would be no time to sew anything up. The fabric would be like whips. The point being that if it were a single cause, they could attend to it, but there is only so much we can control or adapt to in the wild. Its Darwinism out there, " things change, the strong survive". Nature makes no value judgements.

We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

April 04, 2024, 01:10:08 PM
Reply #45
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gunmat


Myths have long lives.."They cut themself out of the tent"...
 
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