Violence, order and geometry

[Charles]

Charles replaced his posts with the text "nothing here" before deleting his account from the forum.
I am cleaning his mess.
Admin

[GlennM]

Those dead at the cedar were laid out by respect from the living. Those in the ravine were situated for warmth and shelter. Those proceeding back to the tent fell inline as they succumbed. I personally attribute no symbolism, nor occult meaning to their arrangement. On the other hand, if it was murder and mayhem, I'd expect the criminal investigation would indicated it. I would argue that careful murderers hide their crime. I would argue careless murderers would not care where the victims fell, nor would they pose the remains.Does treating this tragedy as a conspiracy result in giving the surviving relatives some false hope that they will be paid for their loss? Since it is unlikely that conspiracy hypotheses will  be proven, this is going to endure like Jack the Ripper.

As far as I can tell, only the findings from tissue samples are missing. My guess is that when found, they will be unremarkable.

[Игорь Б.]

Доказано, что двое у кедра лежали головами к ветру.
Доказано, что трое на склоне лежали на прямой к палатке.
Доказано, что трое в ручье лежали укрывшись куртками.
Доказано, что тело Дубининой перевернулось и сползло с уступа.

[Ziljoe]

I don't think anyone is implying panic, as for films , much of our representations in all walks of life are influenced by them, just like your love and passion clips etc. The same could be said for any genre of film. Life is much more humdrum.

As for the ravine four, the injuries are consistent with a snow collapse breaking the ribs, and skull fracture. Lying down next to each other for warmth is good practice, especially if there was  space available , perhaps from a naturally formed snow cave.  The bodies wouldn't curl up in a ball in that situation because it would appear that was the postion they were in when it the roof potentially collapsed. If you do some research you will see how bodies come to rest from exposure to the cold.

I don't think anyone mentioned a stampede. Maybe panic is the wrong word, alarmed , fright, fear may be more appropriate. Obviously ,the reason to leave the tent is an important factor in how we look at the events that followed.

To ask the question if they panicked is sensible. They may have got a fright, heard or saw a gun shot, gas canister, snow slip, wind or Wolverine. 

An open mind is useful instead of having a predetermined conclusion and forcing the evidence to fit. But carry on. I'm interested in this violence , order and geometry thing...

[Ziljoe]

Charles, as I said maybe panic is the wrong word, it fits with , fright, alarm, spooked etc. It's the unknown. But I was referring to your "true panic" . However the previous discussion was if the panicked in the sense that they ran down hill and as I understand it , other members were putting there thoughts forward and discussing why they left the tent. I think it was mostly concluded that they made a decision to move towards the ceder , not by panic but it seemed the best option. It's you that uses the phrase true panic and stampeded.

"So the hikers panicked at the tent, a true panic, the one corresponding to a stampede when herds run for their lives, then they experienced extreme suffering, and finally they died and laid as in a cemetery, and found time to pay some respect to the dead... Another fairytale?"

Anyway get back to your geometry thing....I canna wait ....

[GlennM]

I see no link between a vengeful assassin and the location of nine bodies. It is the geometry of coincidence if anything. At the cedar, clothing was appropriated and the bodies laid out respectfully. In the ravine, those huddling for mutual warmth would do a poor job if their knees were at their chest. I have no good explanation for why all four in the ravine were not huddled as a group unless one rolled off and tried to get back. Those who blazed a trail back to the tent fell in a line.

Evacuating the tent was deliberate as evidenced by prints in the snow. When the slab slip happened,  breathing is first priority. Warming is second. Staying warm( shelter) is third. All these things were done. They died because Nature was too severe.

Can one have defensive wounds against the elements? I think so.

[GlennM]

Hi Charles,
To be clear, I agree with the latest official findings by the Soviet authorities. If anything, I parrot what is for most people common knowledge about the incident. As such, when I am mocked for my point of view, I feel that the mockery is also directed at the official explanation. Indeed, it may extend beyond that to others who have divergent points compared to yours.
I think as an expert on the subject, a post about the position of the deceased is really a digression from your thesis. Does it require this kind of bolstering? I thought your general  research was very good, though unprovable. Then again all of this discussion is unprovable.


Since I do not have a time machine, I can only comment that the resting place of the deceased is more easily explained as a consequence of how they perished than the work of some ghoul. From what I know of such matters,,which is not a lot, when corpses are posed, it is obvious that they have been manipulated. There is usually a message to be inferred. In this regard, much has been made of how the hikers suffered and died, the villains leaving no clues for authorities to start an investigation such as yours. If I understand this right, you are apparently positing the opposite. Am I reading that the murderers intentionally posed the dead hikers for effect?  If so it was certainly private symbolism at best and incredibly risky to boot. Personally, I remain unconvinced. In fact the only real question is why they left their tent. Since we are all of separate opinions in the absence of definitive proof, the tragedy lives on. I just prefer the explanation that requires fewer assumptions. Your turn.

[GlennM]

Charles, recently there has been a breakthrough in a infamous American murder mystery, the Zodiac killer. It seems that there are enough circumstantial evidence pointers to get people excited about it. The case is 50 years old, yet a new revelation is discovered.

With regard to the DPI, I am reminded that everyone who visits a place leaves something of themselves behind. Can you forge such a definitive link between the culprits and victims? Of course, there are currently no artifacts to yield fingerprint nor DNA evidence, It would be compelling if you could find something. I encourage you to redouble your effort in this regard. Somebody knows something. Somebody left evidence of their presence. Follow the money. Follow the travels. Follow the circle of friends. Supplies and silence have a price. If there is a lead to follow, then by all means do so. Bring us something material and move us closer to resolution. It will be appreciated by all. If Zodiac can be solved, DPI can too. Good luck.

[GlennM]

Charles, who do you think will do the archival search? Which Russian DPI investigator is supporting your hypothesis? I hope you can inspire someone to make the search. If they corroborate your hypothesis, what is the next step?