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Author Topic: The Biggest Mystery Of All...  (Read 12919 times)

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February 27, 2024, 07:56:58 AM
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MDGross


There are mysteries galore in this most mysterious case.

• How were Lyuda, Tibo and Sasha fatally injured?

• Where was the tent pitched – mountain slope, forest, somewhere else?

• Were the bodies moved and the entire scene staged?  And by whom?

• Was there a government coverup of the facts that has now lasted for 65 years?

• Was the side of the tent cut from the inside or outside?

• But for me, the biggest mystery is why, except for Tibo and Sasha, did the others flee barefooted or stocking footed and only in the clothes they were sleeping in? These were experienced cold-weather hikers. They knew that in the Siberian winter the greatest danger was the freezing weather.

In deference to GlennM, I can’t understand how a natural occurring phenomenon would cause them to flee in such an ill-prepared state. Did they believe that their lives were in immediate danger? Only time to slice the tent open and flee. But then why did they walk in such an orderly fashion as it appears? The terrain in not conducive to avalanches, even snow slips. And if they were suffering from hypothermia inside the tent, why would they entertain themselves by writing the satirical “Daily Otorten”? It appears they were relaxed and enjoying themselves.

As I’ve said before, the only satisfactory answer for me is that they were forced to exit the tent so poorly dressed by an armed third party. I favor the KGB. But arguments could be made for the CIA, escaped convicts, a murderous group intent on killing them, perhaps even Mansi.

If this particular mystery could be incontrovertibly solved, then everything else would fall into place.
 

February 27, 2024, 08:58:51 AM
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Axelrod


But arguments could be made for the CIA...
It will be very intersting to hear such arguments!
 

February 27, 2024, 11:01:14 AM
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Ziljoe


There are mysteries galore in this most mysterious case.

I agree but some of these mysteries have been enhanced by speculation and media, to the point our minds run wild with imagination.

• How were Lyuda, Tibo and Sasha fatally injured?

I look at the location of the bodies. 3-4 meters of snow on top of them, a ravine with a drop, the serious injuries relate with the hard surface of the ground as opposed to the upper body. To me ,this suggests a crush injury by a force towards the stream bed.



• Where was the tent pitched – mountain slope, forest, somewhere else?

All intial evidence points to the tent being pitched on the slope , tent found on slope  , footprints towards the forest. No indicators of others. I think this is important, any stagers would not know that footprints, showing detail of socks or toes would last 3 weeks or what prints they would leave behind. It's quite a unique set of snow conditions. I don't think stagers or outsiders would know what would prints would be left behind. It's such a random variable, I can't see that being staged.


• Were the bodies moved and the entire scene staged?  And by whom?


I can't see it as there's no evidence for anyone else being there.

• Was there a government coverup of the facts that has now lasted for 65 years?

Million dollar question , no matter how corrupt our governments are or can be, they also occasionally tell the truth. The is the possibility that they just didn't know, or care, it was 65 years ago, things were different then, no lawyer's and cash payments. It would have already cost money and resources, there were errors by the organisation of the hike and risk assessments. Embarrassing all round. I'm pretty sure if the government wanted to blame people for murder they could have blamed the Mansi or framed them. If there was a cover up , this would have been the easiest thing to do to close the case.



• Was the side of the tent cut from the inside or outside?

Both probably, no way to know fur sure.



• But for me, the biggest mystery is why, except for Tibo and Sasha, did the others flee barefooted or stocking footed and only in the clothes they were sleeping in? These were experienced cold-weather hikers. They knew that in the Siberian winter the greatest danger was the freezing weather.

This suggests that they had to leave the tent with what they had. Although it can be freezing cold it can be relatively mild also. The decision must have been made that descending to the forest was better than staying at the tent for any length of time.


In deference to GlennM, I can’t understand how a natural occurring phenomenon would cause them to flee in such an ill-prepared state. Did they believe that their lives were in immediate danger? Only time to slice the tent open and flee. But then why did they walk in such an orderly fashion as it appears? The terrain in not conducive to avalanches, even snow slips. And if they were suffering from hypothermia inside the tent, why would they entertain themselves by writing the satirical “Daily Otorten”? It appears they were relaxed and enjoying themselves.

We don't know when that was written. They walked as this was this was obviously the best option.


As I’ve said before, the only satisfactory answer for me is that they were forced to exit the tent so poorly dressed by an armed third party. I favor the KGB. But arguments could be made for the CIA, escaped convicts, a murderous group intent on killing them, perhaps even Mansi.

Convicts, no theft of anything. I don't know what the CIA would be doing in the middle of nowhere. Same as the KGB, what motive does anyone have to kill young students, why?

If this particular mystery could be incontrovertibly solved, then everything else would fall into place.

There's snow, cold, wind, exhaustion and what looks like an attempt at survival. It does not look like murder in the slightest, if we could  find the conclusion as to why they left the tent , I don't think we would have so many other questions to the rest of the case.
 

February 27, 2024, 11:24:33 AM
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anna_pycckux


• But for me, the biggest mystery is why, except for Tibo and Sasha, did the others flee barefooted or stocking footed and only in the clothes they were sleeping in?
The fact that the group cut up the tent and ran away from some kind of danger is an imposed false scheme. Tourists could not cut the tent under any circumstances, and this could never happen. Tourists, on the contrary, sewed up a tent at each rest stop. According to my version, the guys were lured out of the tent by deception
(for example to help a wounded hunter), they came out warmly dressed.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2024, 11:30:00 AM by anna_pycckux »
 

February 27, 2024, 02:30:02 PM
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GlennM


Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence, for which there is none. Breathing, bleeding, broken bones and burns all take priority over dressing up. I submit that escaping the tent to prevent suffocation as being the leading cause. I do not rule out paradoxical undressing. I am certain, since rescuers ate the provisions that it was not toxicity.

There is no direct, nor indirect evidence to indicate the presence of man, nor beast affecting the hikers. Once that is ruled out, then the only remaining explanation must be natural reactions to natural events. Surely things happened in sequence. Each of us hypothesizes what that sequence is. If something appears odd, then it may only indicate the order if the sequence is incorrect, not that it did not happen.

We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

February 27, 2024, 03:22:53 PM
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Ziljoe


To add , the behaviour of the Dyatlov group showed no indication of some secret or paranoia that they were up to no good. To look at the diaries and photos , they show complete disregard to any guilt. It was a tourist hike , youth living their life and the joy of adventure. You don't sing in a railway station and attract attention, you don't go to a school and tell your adventures to children, socialise with the locals , sing songs , use a local to take your equipment by sledge and horse.

I don't think they could have drawn more attention to themselves if they tried. The group did not behave if they held some secret , political or scientific .

No one had reason to kill the hikers that we know of.
 
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February 27, 2024, 10:05:26 PM
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anna_pycckux


• Was there a government coverup of the facts that has now lasted for 65 years?
The fate of the Criminal case was decided by the party authorities, but not by the investigators.
proofs: interview with investigator Korotaev, prosecutor Okishev. A quote from a newspaper article by investigator Ivanov: "I am forced to fulfill someone else's will" as well as archival documents.
 

February 28, 2024, 07:14:55 AM
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amashilu

Global Moderator

• How were Lyuda, Tibo and Sasha fatally injured?

Teddy and Igor's book 1079 points out all the geologic explorations that were going on at the time in that area, and on pp 227 mentions that one technique the geologists would use is dropping charges into the treetops, and then setting them off.

"Air blasts could be used ... the expedition came to utilizing a method of earthquake ground excitation by air blasts. The charges ... were placed in the trees at a certain height."

Ever since I first read that, I wonder about the injuries of the three you mention, said to be similar to those caused by an air blast. I don't know how a charge could be placed in a tree in the first place, or what the ground earthquake would look like when the charge is set off. But I guess if one were near to it, their bodies could be thrown quite a distance and injured badly.

Of course, that still doesn't answer the question of why they left the tent in the first place.


 

February 28, 2024, 07:50:25 AM
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eurocentric


There is another possible explanation, one which does not include any third party. But it's the sort of thing where readers will allow their emotions to revolt against the very idea and find it disrespectful to even consider.

Had there been a dispute at the tent, Semyon finding the siting madness and his greater outdoorsman experience recognising the weather was closing in, then this could explain some damage to the tent when a standoff and mutiny took place, and an old soldier led a better dressed party downslope to make a snow den in which to hunker down.

Those who went with him were the least fit of the group and entirely predictable in name, his new BFFL Tibo, and the 2 social misfits in this group, Alex and moody Lyuda.

The others remain at the tent, outraged at this, and Igor insisting they will be okay, that they have already dug a hole. Hypothermia slowly sets in and at some point they head downslope, perhaps determined by Zina when Yuri D begins to fade, and the party leave in a semi-dressed state due to the cognitive effects of the cold and make a fire in the forest, but this sees 2 of them die.

The remaining 3 are faced with a terrible decision, either lay down and die or take the sole remaining survivor resource, the den, which would be economically small and only fit 4 people. They cannot make their own, they are too exhausted and this would mean greater exposure outside the forest in rising winds.

So they'd take their torches and some fire logs and strike 3 weary and cold men in a hole in the ground across their heads to concuss them and drag them across to the ravine. Semyon's chest is flailed either as he hits the floor, or when Aleksander's unconscious body lands on him, this explaining the fractures happening during life. Semyon is found laid on his flailed right side.

Lyuda is spared being hit on the head, perhaps from an age where women were not struck, or they may have tried to convince her to remain with them, but she would protest, and to stop her screams, after removing her from the den as she scratched and kicked, one of them straddled her and pressed their thumbs into her throat, loosening her lingual bone until she eventually passed out, and she too was rolled into the ravine, possibly coming round again and trying to escape, sustaining a second set of fall fractures. She places her hat on Tibo after hearing slight groans in the darkness.

The survivors occupy the den, they are cold and in shock at what the human survival instinct has made them do and worrying how they are going to explain all this. Rustem has suffered a head injury during the fight, and Zina's hand is gashed when a knife was brandished. When the storm dies down they, or possibly just Rustem and Zina, head back to the tent but it's too late and they die of exposure. Igor follows, dragging himself out of the den.

The investigators suspect what has happened after finding the injured 4 bodies in a ravine close to a den for 4 people, and to spare the families, and to stop negative propaganda about Russians killing Russians, they close the case and prefer it to become a permanent mystery, one of thousands of State secrets.

When a group splits into two in an extreme environment they then become rivals for survival and will do anything to survive in what becomes a 'them or us' situation. This compelling force is not unknown.

I would of course prefer to think this never happened, but it, along with a poisoning, are the two theories I eventually arrived at in my own DPI journey, and perhaps internecine war in the extreme cold is the simplest Occam's Razor of all theories but is something of an unspeakable truth if that is what took place.

We'd all like to think that in those circumstances we'd behave differently, but I cannot say with 100% certainty what I would be like until I was there, and so I do not judge, and the hikers will always have my respect even if this took place, but when considering what might have happened all possibilities need to be considered.
My DPI approach - logic, probability and reason.
 

February 28, 2024, 08:26:52 AM
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Axelrod


I once read a book biography of Mikhail Khodorkovsky.
(I hope there is no need to explain who this is)

When he was a student, he had a summer internship on a Soviet collective farm.
There it was necessary to dig some kind of pit.
Because Mikhail Khodorkovsky was a student at the Chemical-Technological Institute,
He proposed using explosives for this.

The chairman of the collective farm was at first interested in his proposal,
but then I thought and doubted it. got scared and forced Khodorkovsky to dig a pit with a shovel all summer.

Perhaps blasting was used in places where it was difficult to gather students like Mikhail Khodorkovsky.

It is possible that those craters on the banks of the rivers are precisely the results of the explosions of Sulman’s helogical expedition,
Because by chance, when falling from the air, it is doubtful that the craters were located along the rivers.
Water does not have the same "magnetic attraction" for bombs.
===
Oroginal text in Russian:
Я когда-то читал книгу биографию Михаила Ходорковского.
(надеюсь, не надо объяснять, кто это такой)

Когда он был студент, он был летм на практике в советском колхозе.
Там надо было выкопать какой-то котлован.
Посклльку Михаил Ходорковский был студент химико-технологического института,
он предложил использовать для этого взрывчатку.

Председатель колхоза сначала заинтересовался его предложением,
но потом подумал, засомневался. испугался, и заставил Ходоковского всё лето копать котлован лопатой.

Возможно, взрывные работы использовались там, куда было сложно собрать студентов вроде Ходорковсокго.
Возможно, что те воронки на берегах рек - как раз результат взрывов геологической экспедиции Сульмана,
потому что при случайном падении из воздуха сомнительно, чтобы воронки были именно вдоль рек.
Вода не обладает таким "магнитным притяжением" для бомб.


 

February 28, 2024, 09:19:47 AM
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Ziljoe


No judgement from me eurocentric.

It is recorded that there were other disputes on other hikes. One lead to the deaths of some of tourist's but i think it was rafting. Others split and one describes how they wanted to fight. So it's a possibility I guess.

If I remember correctly, one of our other members highlighted the satirical newspaper humour about Zina and Yuri having the fastest time to put up the stove as 1hour or something. She brings our attention to the fact of Zinas love for Yuri and his rejection of that love. Why this hour of putting up the tent is mentioned is obviously someone's idea of a joke.

But when in love it is no joke , it is humiliation, add to the fact , if I understand correctly, the satirical newspaper is what would be left behind on mt Otoren . Zinas humiliation would be for all to see. It is the newspaper that is first found lying in the tent. Could it have the trigger for a fight or Zina to cut her way out of the tent as they laughed?
 

February 28, 2024, 01:01:50 PM
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MDGross


eurocentric, I agree that all possibilities should be considered. Over the years, this forum has provided a great way for posters to do just that. And perhaps the simplest explanation is the best – poor judgment, horrific weather conditions and exhaustion resulted in tragedy. Involvement by a third party brings so much complexity to the incident. But I feel like the ONE mistake that the hikers would never make is to walk away from the safety of their tent shoeless and in the few clothes they were sleeping in. As experienced as they were, they surely knew that they had almost no chance of surviving the night. If for some reason they couldn't retrieve their shoes and coats, they could have at least exited the tent with the blankets and sleeping bags that were keeping them warm. For me, this is the most puzzling piece of this tragedy. Why would anyone walk in an orderly fashion to near certain death? Unless they had no choice. Unless they were forced by an armed third party to walk to the forest with almost no protection from the deadly cold.
 
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February 28, 2024, 04:09:40 PM
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GlennM


Interesting hypotheses. The diffuculty with them is that the poster chooses a sequence of behaviors that confirms their point of view but marvels at the discrepent or behaviorally illogical aspects. Again, I submit that because something is logically consistent,  it need not be the truth. During the incident on 1079, physical evidence was produced. When it happened and how, are open ended questions. We also have opinions that are taken as fact. Cuts on the tent are a prime example. How is it that the tent was cut, but the interior was free of snow? How can a flashlight be perched on a layer of snow on the tent?

 We have a supposed chain of events premised on the tent in the woods, another premised on the tent on slope. Both are logical. Both are mutually exclusive. Both have logical constructs. There can not be two truths.

In logic, this might be compared to an " approach-approach" dilemma. In common terms it is the donkey who starves by being tethered between two stalls of hay and can not decide one to choose.

To break the dilemma, we see tactics to discredit opinion, devalue testimony or do the exact opposite to force a conclusion. Teddy and others go to the woods to find evidence 65 years old. It is commendable. I suspect the missing clue will be found in an archive, yet to be revealed.




« Last Edit: February 29, 2024, 06:40:56 AM by GlennM »
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

March 03, 2024, 12:30:33 PM
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ilahiyol


It is clear that this event is not an ordinary freezing or avalanche event. Or it is obvious that it is not a missile or poisoning. Even discussing these is a waste of time. There is a panoramic situation in this event. Or there is a creature that is not an animal and can think. It's not clear what this is. We'll probably never know.
 

March 03, 2024, 12:51:53 PM
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ilahiyol


As can be seen, the incident probably started when the hikers were walking into the forest after camping on the mountain. The Unknown Force, whatever it was, must have somehow started to disturb the hikers(?)...However, the hikers may have set up camp in the forest. But here too the unknown Power must have continued to disturb them. I don't know how this disturbance happened (???) Sound or image or both..... The young people must have thought that they could not stay in the forest any longer and ran away to the mountain... Because the mountain was an open area and the unknown Power could not disturb them from behind the trees. But the unknown Force followed them. Maybe 1-2 hours later. Because they needed 1-2 hours to set up their tents on the mountain. So definitely the unknown Power had planned it all!!! It wasn't a random attack. Everything was staged!!! Possibly the unknown Power was invisible to the eye under normal circumstances. And he went towards the tent and asked the young men to come out of the tent. The young people resisted at first and did not want to leave the tent. Because leaving the tent meant death within 1-2 days. But the unknown Power probably did not work with knife, axe, or punch. And the unknown Power threatened them and finally drove them out of the tent. But the young people did not run. Because running and sweating meant death. They had to stay dry. That's why two people among them first wanted to run and escape, but they must have thought it would be wrong and joined the group later. I understand this from the footprints. The group walked desperately into the forest and what happened next happened.
 

March 03, 2024, 01:05:40 PM
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ilahiyol


The event is definitely the execution of a well-thought-out plan. The attacker had been watching them since the beginning of the march. He was seeing every move they made and listening to their conversations. So the attacking Power was not an ordinary attacker. He was a very smart, very knowledgeable being who saw and knew most things and was aware of everything. And this event is the most mysterious event in the history of the world that reflects on people. There have been many mysterious events in world history, but there is no other event as clear and obvious as this one. Generally, corpses disappear in such incidents. Or there may not be much left of the corpses. Believe me, if this event had happened in our time, the world would have been shaken. The fact that it happened during the Cold War period made the incident seem like an ordinary event. And the incident was not focused on much. If the tragic event had happened in our time, it would have been approached with much more importance and we could have achieved very different results with the development of technology. I ask God for forgiveness and mercy for those who died. They all go to Heaven, God willing
 

March 03, 2024, 01:29:12 PM
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Axelrod


The attacker had been watching them since the beginning of the march. He was seeing every move they made and listening to their conversations. So the attacking Power was not an ordinary attacker. He was a very smart, very knowledgeable being who saw and knew most things and was aware of everything.
And his name is Fantômas !
 

March 03, 2024, 05:18:20 PM
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Ziljoe


The attacker had been watching them since the beginning of the march. He was seeing every move they made and listening to their conversations. So the attacking Power was not an ordinary attacker. He was a very smart, very knowledgeable being who saw and knew most things and was aware of everything.
And his name is Fantômas !

Fantômas is not real Axelrod? . Just in case you don't understand.
 
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October 25, 2024, 04:34:05 PM
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
It is clear that this event is not an ordinary freezing or avalanche event. Or it is obvious that it is not a missile or poisoning. Even discussing these is a waste of time. There is a panoramic situation in this event. Or there is a creature that is not an animal and can think. It's not clear what this is. We'll probably never know.

I think you mean PARANORMAL not panoramic.
DB
 

October 25, 2024, 05:22:02 PM
Reply #19
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GlennM


"And if they were suffering from hypothermia inside the tent, why would they entertain themselves by writing the satirical “Daily Otorten”? It appears they were relaxed and enjoying themselves."

Another forum investigator suggested to me that it may be possible that the hikers might have worked it like this. They bring enough wood for a single night. They setup the stove to melt water, dry socks, prep food and heat the tent. During this time perhaps they shared the Daily Ortoten and were of good cheer. When the stove cooled, they dumped the ashes outside and packed it away. Either right then or soon after, the snow slid on the tent.

Imagine. Blackness. The tent canvas pressed on your face, a tangle of a cloth divider and you wrapped up in your sleeping gear. You are shoulder to shoulder,head to foot,with eight others. Nobody knows if it is going to get worse. Your choice is to worm out the front flap or cut your way out quickly. If everyone,worms out, the tent and expedition are saved. If the tent is cut, the expedition is over.
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

October 28, 2024, 01:51:08 PM
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MDGross


Certainly a plausible scenario. I wonder though, after they had extricated themselves from the collapsed tent, why not stop and assess the situation? Then send one or two team members back inside the tent and gather shoes, coats, gloves and blankets. These experienced cold-weather hikers would have known the greatest danger was hypothermia.
 

October 28, 2024, 02:28:57 PM
Reply #21
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GlennM


Your point is a good one. It vexes all of us who are in favor of the natural causes explanation. It has been claimed the single set of all the tourists footprints descended the slope show a walking pattern. For me, this means they had the presence of mind to control their actions, including going back in the tent as an option. Something precluded that choice. Since the tent is now gone and its location on 1079 is arguable, we are at a loss for a clue. That said, during all the time the tent was in storage, we have nothing to indicate there was anything about it to stimulate further examination ( blood,,scent,,sap,,scorch,,etc.)
For me, I support the idea that they didn't because they couldn't..as in bringing down more slab onto the tent. I think too that they underestimated the distance to the woods,,especially at night.

It was pointed out by another forum veteran that whereas Soviet hiking expeditions were a "thing", calamity and fatality did happen. It would be snarky of me to say," common sense ain't so common". It may go back to hubris on their part.  Sometimes this exercise reminds me of standing on the edge of a swimming pool and trying to deduce what was tossed in the other end by only looking at the,ripples.
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

October 28, 2024, 03:27:49 PM
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MDGross


Yes, "looking at the ripples." Great description of what we're all doing.
 

October 28, 2024, 04:23:09 PM
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Ziljoe


Unfortunately, deaths and injury are common with those that partake in outdoor activities.

In the UK and Scottish Mountains there seems to be an average of 600 incidents a year with an average of around 20 deaths .

I would suspect the rest of the world will have similar statistics of accidents or nature overpowering those that do such activities, it is also the nature of the human spirit to take risks for adventure , all be it sad to the regrettable outcomes.

Everything points to the group not being able to gather further equipment from the tent, so from that view point we argue our opinions. We have 2 main arguments as to why leave the tent and leave that tent without more equipment. One being forced by outsiders or secondly something in the environment or nature.

As Glennm quite rightly highlights , any kind of collapse of the tent would cause havoc to those inside packed like sardines. Even if it were to be from the simplest thing as a main rope giving way or a tent pole snapping , those inside are now covered with unsupported canvas. On a campsite next to civilization, this would maybe found funny and time would be taken to slowly crawl out of the entrance .

When we transport the concept of the tent collapsing on an exposed mountain slope with snow and strong winds as opposed to a campsite , actions by those inside would differ because of real potential dangers.

If the wind had been strong and the hikers feared some imminent weather condition, I suspect they would be better dressed expecting to maybe have to take action why they slept. This doesn't seem to be the case, the hikers seem relaxed and without any fear or suspicion of impending emergency action.

About the only set of circumstances that seems to tick most boxes is some kind of snow avalanche or build up of snow that simulates a dangerous avalanche in the hikers mind. It initially causes the collapse, If they stay there in the darkness to try and assess what happened to the tent and how severe this snow collapse/slide was , they fear it may trigger more snow. The decision is made to make a fire in the woods and return in daylight to reclaim their equipment .
 

November 04, 2024, 06:51:28 AM
Reply #24
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GlennM


MDGross favors the hikers being driven from their tent by KGB. Anna argues they were lured out by malefactors under false pretenses. Why? It seems that these things would happen if the tourists had contraband such as State secrets, or more mundanely, something of theirs which would sustain their malefactor in achieving an escape.

I find not a single instance in the case files where these ideas get additional support. Nor do I see blatant coverup and suppression.

Another astute forum member supposes that the DPI incident which is but one of any number of wintertime hiking tragedies and become mythologizes and inflated with drama to rival the Bermuda Triangle. The area is now a tourist destination.
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

November 04, 2024, 09:40:03 AM
Reply #25
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Axelrod


In the history of the Bermuda Triangle there is such an event as the disappearance of the 19th link (did I write it correctly?).

We are talking about a squadron of military aircraft in the middle of the last century, which left from a military base
on a training flight and did not return. The reason for the mass inadequacy of people is not explained. But thanks to this event, everything happened. For some reason, this event struck the minds of more people than the disappearance of ships in that region for decades.

The Dyatlov group is probably the same 19th link.
 
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November 04, 2024, 01:28:55 PM
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GlennM


In the USA, it is referred to as Flight 19. Good point Axelrod.
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

November 04, 2024, 03:13:31 PM
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Ziljoe


Flight 19 got lost ,  no mystery here .
 
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