About radioactivity.

[Axelrod]

I was busy today with transcript of Valentin Degteriov.

It is posted here.

https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1768.0

(Proto if Yuri Kriin front of tree of signs is also dusucessed there. Also comment from Teddy...Therefore I started work with that topic...)

I think how to explain my thouthts about tale with Ivan. I do it later, and in appropriate ptopic.
Here this importatnt research will be innoticeable.

[Ziljoe]

Well , for what's is worth.

Herses a link to the tree bark sign posts. How qualified it is I don't know but it makes sense.

If we travel to other countries with different means of communication, then of course it seems mysterious..I have to praise big bad Russia on this, the Soviet Union or whatever we call it. The Soviet Union wasn't trying to convert all these tribes into Christianity or communism, they left them alone , that is the manti , khanty and all the rest of the tribes

The sign posts on the tress are exactly that , communication.

It's an interesting read, https://www.folklore.ee/folklore/vol3/soros4.htm#:~:text=On%20the%20Shtshutshye%20River%20near,Photo.

Please indulge and have a read. I don't think it's made up and it has logic.

[Axelrod]

I have to praise big bad Russia on this, the Soviet Union or whatever we call it. The Soviet Union wasn't trying to convert all these tribes into Christianity or communism, they left them alone

In 1979, at the suggestion of E. I. Rombandeyeva, signs for denoting long vowels were included in the Mansi alphabet (by adding a macron). Before that, in 1978, in the publication of V. I. Lenin's brochure "The Tasks of Youth Unions", the stress mark was used to denote long vowels.

[Ziljoe]

I have to praise big bad Russia on this, the Soviet Union or whatever we call it. The Soviet Union wasn't trying to convert all these tribes into Christianity or communism, they left them alone

In 1979, at the suggestion of E. I. Rombandeyeva, signs for denoting long vowels were included in the Mansi alphabet (by adding a macron). Before that, in 1978, in the publication of V. I. Lenin's brochure "The Tasks of Youth Unions", the stress mark was used to denote long vowels.

Yes, you cite from Wikipedia?.

The reference I gave is about the tree signs and meaning of them . How and why they were used. It may have been mysterious to the Dyatlov group but not mysterious to the Mansi . The photo of the chum could be a sign post for a trail , interestingly this signage is mentioned in the link I supplied and could be linked to the ceder. Food for thought.

[Axelrod]

In order to discuss here the signs on the trees of the Mansi, it is necessary to create a topic with a separate name. People who are afraid or do not understand the topic of radiation, rarely will get into this topic to find here the signs of the Mansi.

As for the physics of radiation itself, it seems to me that the author of the topic understands it as some kind of incomprehensible mystical phenomenon. Other people can repeat what they learned at school or college.

It seems to me that the topic of nuclear physics is as murky a topic as the Dyatlov Pass.
People do not understand this topic as a whole conception.

I studied at the Physics and Technology Institute in Moscow, but we studied the topic of nuclear physics quickly and superficially, like,  studying astronomy at school, for example. This is a very specialized topic. There are many other relevant topics in physics.

As for beta radioactivity, I used to think that this type of radiation is associated with the emission of an electron. Recently I noticed that there is also a neutrino or anti-neutrino in the decay equation. Now I wonder which of these components is more important.

Now I am at an age to not only remember, but also to rethink theories. Recently I thought that beta decay may not occur by itself - as we were taught. Maybe it can be provoked by a stream of neutrinos that comes from the Sun and other stars and that constantly occurs around us, but the impact of which is not yet studied in science.

[GlennM]

I find curious two things. First, radiation was found on the clothing of the hikers. Secondly, radiation detection equipment was brought to the scene of the tragedy. I find it hard to believe that rescuers in the dead of winter had any practical need for Geiger counters to effect a rescue. I find it significant that no additional investigation was brought into evidence ascertaining the source of the radioactive contamination.

Since there was no appreciable radiation detected in snow, tree, rock or flesh anywhere else at that time, I must conclude that the contamination was inadvertent, coming from the student's work place. Was the radioactive material distributed on garments and subsequently detected in order to support a conspiracy to defect theory? Nonsense on stilts!

I can not support conspiracy. I think that conservation of State property, was why a Geiger counter was there at the time. A particularly lousy time for prospecting, I would add.

[Ziljoe]

[

I find curious two things. First, radiation was found on the clothing of the hikers. Secondly, radiation detection equipment was brought to the scene of the tragedy. I find it hard to believe that rescuers in the dead of winter had any practical need for Geiger counters to effect a rescue. I find it significant that no additional investigation was brought into evidence ascertaining the source of the radioactive contamination.

Since there was no appreciable radiation detected in snow, tree, rock or flesh anywhere else at that time, I must conclude that the contamination was inadvertent, coming from the student's work place. Was the radioactive material distributed on garments and subsequently detected in order to support a conspiracy to defect theory? Nonsense on stilts!

I can not support conspiracy. I think that conservation of State property, was why a Geiger counter was there at the time. A particularly lousy time for prospecting, I would add.

As I understand it , a dosimeter was reported as being taken to the area , I honestly can't remember if that's in the case files or a later interview..( I'm sure it says something about clicking noises but that's not how a dosimeter works) the Geiger counter is late in the investigation, its after the ravine 4 are found and allegedly done because the clothes were seen to be glowing. As I understand it it , radiation doesn't glow

There may be other explanations for clothes glowing . For example there was some kind of forensic method for looking for blood .

Luminol test  below.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminol#:~:text=In%201937%2C%20German%20forensic%20scientist,of%20blood%20at%20crime%20scenes.

I think what must be observed, in tandem with the state of play, between the west and east in a cold war context is the political movements on nuclear weapons.

The Soviet Union was winning the race on distance on rockets and missiles. The r-5 m rocket was the first with a nuclear war head .in October 1958, the west( UK, USA) were trying to ban the testing of rockets/ missiles , this was agreed In principal with the Soviet Union at the time.

However, the  Soviet Union may have been doing tests with the rockets. The Soviet Union was supposed to have agreed to this ban on testing. This includes , air bombs, planes , etc etc.

The Dyatlov pass incident is right in the middle of this  arms race. Rockets are mentioned along with lights in the sky .

Could the Dyatlov pass have been used as red herring to the west? Radiation and all?..

Was the natural death of tourists  used as a question mark to the west ?.

There is a lot going on in the Kremlin at this point in history, the Soviet Union moved nuclear capable missiles it to east Germany in 1959...  The west side as behind and information was all over the place.

The distance of the middles was important, also the accuracy.

It was a time of top secrecy, I do wonder if the innocent deaths of the Dyatlov hikers were a pawn in a bigger picture of international . Just a convenient affair to confuse the west..

[GlennM]

Excellent points made regarding the state of affairs in 1959. What concerns me is that radiation in any way, shape or form that originated within the Soviet Union is an unlikely piece to play in internationa chess. It implies incompetence at some level. If, on the other hand, the hikers were affected by foreign contamination,  that would be different and provocative. As far as I know, the radioactive exposures were not mined for their propaganda value.

Of course we have the blurry photo of the light trails and we have the evidence of radiation on some, not all articles of clothing and zinc lined coffins. Personally, I do not think a radioactive sample drove the hikers from tent to the hereafter. The testing equipment may just have been handy at the time, nothing more. It may have just been a coincidence.

[Ziljoe]

Agree, I don't think the radio active clothing says much about anything and it may have happened in transit.

What I was trying to suggest is that the Dyatlov file is full of sightings of objects in the sky on various dates . These case files if seen by the public in 1959 could have been released/leaked to the west. It is the statements of these missile flights that could perhaps pin point the flights and testing locations of these missiles . The Soviet Union would not want that information going to the west as it may inform the west where to look for the secret launch facilities of which there were 4 I think and also the designated target zone.( Accuracy of these missiles was also secret)

The light phenomena in the sky were in the statements which includes important information like, the time of day , along with the rough location of the observer's. From this information, I'm pretty sure that the western secret services could estimate the launch site and test ranges and then send the U2 spy plane over head or infiltrate the secret facilities with spys. 

These test rockets and missiles were being developed as defence missiles ( interception) and ICBMs . The Soviet Union wanted these locations secret , they were built in secret.

The information in the case files is of national security at the time of 1959 . I wouldn't be surprised if this is why there was secrecy around the Dyatlov pass and it was locked away in some cupboard.  Too much loose information on real events with an individual Investigator adding his own speculation of radiation and rockets ....the very thing that was supposed to be a state secret .

The hikers died by accident and bad luck, the investigation accidentally revealed unwanted state secrets (the potential location of test missile launch sites)and that was most likely why it was classified at the time. It is the very reason as to why it was "classified" that has spawned all the theories that something mysterious happened. To understand why the case was classified may help us to narrow down the cause of the incident?.

[GlennM]

Ziljoe, the suppression of information regarding lights in the sky certainly reinforces the secrecy surrounding the case, the alleged exclusion zone in the mountains, and the State's attempt to take a low key approach to the funerals. If the alternate routes, such as the Blinov party took also necame restricted, that would certainly reinforce the missiles making lights in the sky. Too, although the exposure was poor, maybe that light trail photo was related to a missile. I am doubtful since it occupied a large percentage of the frame. I think a successful laumch would produce a shaky streak on film, while a detonation would be much bigger. The chance that it would be caught is such a random manner, argues against it.

Yes, I think this thread about radioactivity may suffice to rule out it as a cause for leaving the tent.

Catabatic winds pushing snow drifts or slips onto an exposed broadside of a stitched together canvas tent seems more reasonable. ( perhaps a wolverine needed to get out of the weather??)

[Ziljoe]

Glenn ,I still have a soft spot for the wolverine theory. However , I shall leave that thought there.

As always it's difficult to backward engineer when  certain bits of the myths surrounding the case came to be.

I don't think a missile or rocket accident happened at 1079 or anywhere near the eye witnesses, I also don't think the photos are of anything to let wise. The only photo out of that grouping that gets my attention are the two eagle photos as they match up and I keep seeing a moose antler....

Back to the bit about radio activity, it could be to do with testing for fallout from the nuclear testing from these distant launch sites .

[Axelrod]

Look, I graduated from the Physics and Technology Institute in Moscow and studied computational mathematics and such.

If this doesn't mean anything to you, imagine that I graduated from MIT.

As for the Dyatlov Pass incident, in which my relative was involved, I want to state that this incident is not some simple incident,
or deliberately mystified.

This is not Loch Ness, where there are discussions after a log floated in 1933, which was mistaken for a monster,

The Dyatlov Pass incident is really strange, although GlennM constantly tries to refute it.

I don't know if I can pronounce the terms correctly, but when plotting graphs on the screen, there is an interpolation of functions by several points.

There are all sorts of shooting methods and other things. to guess the nature of this function, which gives such intermediate points.
This function is very mysterious for the graph.

And here you start using "leaps of faith", that it could be an avalanche, wolverine. other options.
Wolverine is not an interpolation for unknown events between February 1 and March 1, 1959.

If wolverine spoiled something, then this thing will not stop stinking after a month. Wolverine is not suitable for interpolation here. This is just a funny example.

[Ziljoe]

Look, I graduated from the Physics and Technology Institute in Moscow and studied computational mathematics and such.

Well done , good on you.

If this doesn't mean anything to you, imagine that I graduated from MIT.

Correct, your first statement means nothing to me ( might mean something to someone else). I am now imagining that you graduated from MIT..........

As for the Dyatlov Pass incident, in which my relative was involved, I want to state that this incident is not some simple incident,
or deliberately mystified.

If it is not some simple incident, then what is it? Unfortunately, it has been deliberately mystified my numerous media outlets and individuals , daily...

This is not Loch Ness, where there are discussions after a log floated in 1933, which was mistaken for a monster,

The loch Ness monster was first reported to have been seen by st Columbia in the 6th century where he used the cross to stop the beast from attacking. I have a relative involved in sightings of the loch Ness monster. I want to state I think it is a simple incident.

The Dyatlov Pass incident is really strange, although GlennM constantly tries to refute it.

I think GlennM is being factual. What is really strange about the Dyatlov pass?

I don't know if I can pronounce the terms correctly, but when plotting graphs on the screen, there is an interpolation of functions by several points.

There are all sorts of shooting methods and other things. to guess the nature of this function, which gives such intermediate points.
This function is very mysterious for the graph.

I would suspect it user error or incorrect data being entered.

And here you start using "leaps of faith", that it could be an avalanche, wolverine. other options.
Wolverine is not an interpolation for unknown events between February 1 and March 1, 1959.

Out of all the theories, an avalanche is the smallest "leap of faith" put forward. As for the wolverine, if it played a role , it was only on the 1st of February.  I believe some are saying this year's winter trip raised the possibility of an avalanche.

If wolverine spoiled something, then this thing will not stop stinking after a month. Wolverine is not suitable for interpolation here. This is just a funny example.

I have a lot of respect for the wolverine theory by Igor B. His work and how he communicates is extremely clear and easy to navigate . Igor B is a useful resource and a logical thinker .

Igor B , link below , you do not need to agree with the the wolverine theory.

http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=3d15ddc6c5a1e2a481c741d1ec2f325a&showtopic=5133&st=1080&p=69286&#entry69286

[mja Mahé]

Good morning.

  Sorry, I've had problems with my Dyatlov Pass Forum password.

 I come back about the symbol on the tree. I think that these are relative with amerindians symbols. I know that the genetic migration up to United States was through the Bering strait and and it's for this reason that I do this relation between Mansis and native american peoples.
In a first time I want to explain the symbol on the tree relative with the arrow of the native americans : protection.
Do you think also like me that's for this reason that Yuri Yudin gave up the group after had examine these symbols???
Here is a screenshot of some native american symbols. My choice is in a first time for the arrow and you'll can see some similar and relative symbols with this one of the tree but it seem really that Yuri Yudin has had a real protection and the story of the Dyatlov Pass learn to you that It was not the fact for the other members of the group!




Source of the image : https://xn--kateyaartamrindien-lwb.com/fr/blog/les-symboles-amerindiens-n21

Friendly.

[Ziljoe]

The symbols on the trees in the photos are representations of the hunt, the strokes above are the number of hunters and the strokes below are the number of dogs involved.

The symbols in-between the upper and lower strokes are the family names ( they can be seen on the Mansi witnesses statements)of the hunters involved , the scores to the sides of the shaved bark depict the animal killed in the hunt .

In Zina's diary where she draws these symbols , she has drawn what some people have alleged to be a club or an axe. It is actually the symbol for an elk . There is no argument about that or what these signs mean.

However , Zinas picture does look like it's been copied...?

[Axelrod]

Mansi Valery Anyamov in a video recording talks us about three people and three dogs.
But I doubt that this interpretation is correct. After 60 years, you can come up with anything as an explanation.

The entry in the diary helps to compare the photos with the dates.
January 28 - Yudin left.
January 29 - they walked a short distance, first along the Lozva River, then along the Auspia River.
I can assume that the 3 lines mean these rivers with water.
--------------------
I don't see this exact date October 5 on the photo of trees. It is present only in her diary.

[Ziljoe]

In this photo it shows 1958 and a possible 5 underneath..

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Krivonischenko-camera-film1-25.jpg

It also shows 3 scores above the family name of Anyamov. The three scores are 3 hunters , then family name ( Anyamov), then 3 dogs. The scores around the edges is the animal caught or hunted.

------------------------

Anyamov uses the family name ( full name Anyamov Andrey Aleekseevich ) to sign his statement in the case files on three pages, I'm not sure what name the other black mark is on the two pages but it seems to be a Mansi name.. perhaps this is the translators name in Mansi sign also?

Case files 230-233

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-case-files-230.jpg

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-case-files-230-back.jpg

-------------

Zinas diary picture of the Mansi signs and 1958 has the triple A, I'm not sure if she knows the name or has got the basic knowledge of Mansi signs because I don't know why she has rows of the letter A with other letters. A process of elimination? However , she has written the Mansi Anyamoy name and we know that the axe looking drawing means an elk .

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Zina-Kolmogorova-diary-12.jpg

----------------

Zina has drawn the Mansi signs from the trees , we know what's being represented is not mystical and we have been told by the Mansi themselves. , It is basically, hunter numbers, family name of hunters , number of dogs used and the animal they caught, elk , wolverine, bear etc.

The mystery is now, why do we have two drawings of the elk signd the same by two different tourists?  Could two people draw the same thing at different times and places from different signs that look extremely similar to each other. Perhaps one was told what to draw and the other drew it freehand from what was Infront of her.

Or was everyone copying each others homework before they presented their hiking report to pass the certificates to the UPi?

[GlennM]

Axelrod, I think you are telling the forum that Mansi signs do not have a single purpose. Instead, they are similar to traffic signs, except they convey more information. They can be directional  educational and perhaps mystical.
You suggest that Mansi signs may be sophisticated enough to introduce choices in the symbols. If this is true and reliable, I commend your scholarship.

The DP9 were intrigued by the Mansi characters, as shown in diaries. I have yet to read anyone who posts an interpretation of symbols on a blazed tree which translate as, " don't go there" This would be cautionary for hikers, if and only if they understood the signs.

Finally, if the signs were so important, I think Forester Rempel would have instructed Igor during their meeting. Igor would be irresponsible to ignore the warnings. As it turned out, the hike, if not irresponsible was unarguably unfortunate.

[Axelrod]

I prefer the idea that the 3 lines denotes a road from east to west, as a person moves along the Auspia River.
The sign to the left of this road indicates someone's hunting territory or the presence of some animal.

There is no sign to the right of the road, because it is cold in the north, there are no animals, it is not a hunting area and certainly not some kind of property. Similar territory in the north of Europe called as Lapland, literally empty land.

[Ziljoe]

It's all here.

'In the evening, after a hearty dinner, during which we finished almost a bucket of elk meat bought from the Mansi, we sit for a long time by the "potbelly stove" and talk with Alexander Prokopyevich. We settled around him on the skins laid on the floor, and he sat on a block and loaded cartridges. We asked the owner about the signs that we encountered in the taiga on the trees. When a Mansi hunter kills an animal, he goes out on the trail and makes a notch on a tree in a conspicuous place in joy and in memory of his success. First, he-carves out the figure of the animal. Animals have their own conventional notches (see Fig. 6). Notches are made above the figure of the animal. Notches are also made under the figure of the animal, The upper notches indicate the number of hunters participating in the hunt. The lower notches indicate the number of dogs, in the middle of the notch. the Mansi puts their family sign, katpos (see Fig. 7). Sometimes there are several notches at the top of the notch, but only one family sign. This means that the father and his sons were hunting. Until they start their own family, the sons put their father's katpos. The katpos is usually first cut out with an axe and then blackened with coal. There are many such monuments to successful hunting in the taiga.'

In fact , Karelins sports report reads almost like the Dyatlov diaries , missing the train, staying at a school , visiting museums , running out of time,trying a new stove designed by the engineer , holes in the tent from sparks, sewing the tent and socks and boot covers, the explanation of the duty officers, hot and cold parts of the tent that hikers thought too hot , spare skis, how the group reported that sending tourists ahead to make a path and the rest follow taking turns, the set up of a tent and the flooring , it's all in the report.  It's like the Dyatlov group with out the sad ending???

I never read it in detail before but it's quite uncanny. Fig 6 and fig 7 show the same wood sign as Zinas( it represents an elk) and the same family names on the trees and as in the diary ,and the statement signed in Mansi .

[Ziljoe]

This is fig 6.

https://www.tlib.ru/doc.aspx?id=28951&page=47

A bear , elk and wolverine are depicted in the diagram by Mansi . This is what the tree signs are supposed to communicate.

[Ziljoe]

Sorry , and the family names with lines from different groups and families that lived by hunting.

This is just a small group of names but is evidenced in the 1959 hike report which matches the description as to what the Karelin group were told when they stayed with the Mansi in February 1959.

For English readers the writing says this if my translation is correct.

Fig. 7. Catpos puc.

Maxian family signs



https://www.tlib.ru/doc.aspx?id=28951&page=48

[Arjan]

Radio Activity revisited

If I remember well, one book descibes the next scenario:
- the Dyatlov group had for most group members an unknown encounter at the tent site with two or three foreign spies for the transfer of radio-active samples,
- the Dyatlov group had been driven by the armed spies from the tent site to the ravine area at the beginning of the night.
- The Dyatlov group did not survive the cold night
- The two/three spies vanished in oblivion in history.
Radio-active samples had been state confidential at that time, due to its unique radiation pattern that revealed the place of mining.

In theory the spies might have entered the tent site in the track made by the group and returned to Vizhay in the same track. In this manner these spies did not leave many traces to and from the tent site.
The spies may have survived the cold night in the tent.

Against this theory:
- No returning footprints visible from the ravine to the tentsite.
- These spies should have travel allowances one way or another.     

Anyway, this book is a classic in my opinion, in the sense that nearly all investigators disagree with the theory, but one has to know this theory in order to exploring the unknown parts of this case.