Lack of tissue damage

[Star man]

What if they were propelled off of the ravine by some sort of explosion?

Weren't there burns on some of the ravine 4's clothing? Or is that assumed to be clothing worn by the Yuri's burned by the fire at the Cedar?
I suppose then there would have been damage to the trees above the ravine? And I'm assuming there would have been damage to skin from an explosion, unless they were insulated somehow.

What do you think of the bodies' orientation with regards to the stream? I think its weird they all landed up in a stream of flowing water. Do you assume it was running when they died? Or they lay upon a frozen over stream and died?

If it was unfrozen, perhaps they were trying to drink the water and were impacted, fell over into the water and died of their injuries?

Just trying to get an idea of why they were partially submerged. The bodies wouldn't have flowed downstream I don't think. The water flow doesn't seem strong enough, especially if it was partially frozen at that time. And Lyuda's body doesn't speak to that either. Am I correct in assuming she was found kneeling sort of upright with her stomach over rocks? Was there flowing water around her?

Or were the bodies moved into the water by the searchers for some reason??

May I ask why its assumed the Den never existed? If it didn't then the whole timeline is shot. I mean, I would assume those were the last 4 alive and that they had time to build a den. If it was a plant then they wouldn't have had time to build a shelter and they all likely died at the same time?? Is that what you are suggesting?

I think if there was a blast near the forest then there would be evidence in terms of damaged trees.

I don’t think the stream was flowing when they died.  It more began to flow during the thaw.

The position of the bodies indicates that they were lying together more or less, suggesting that they either went there themselves or were carried there.

The time line is something to be careful with. It appears that the rav 4 died before the two Yuris but I think that is about all we can conclude.

This is just an opinion though.

Regards
Star man

[Clacon]

Hi All,

Thanks for the reply. I was just confused because I thought the Ravine 4 were wearing some of the Yuris' clothing items, meaning they had taken them off them after they had already expired? Which would mean the Yuri's died first?


Also, how can we be sure that the clothes were burned by drying them on the stove and not by falling into the fire from the tree? I've seen only one photo of a jacket burned bc of the stove and am not sure if this item of clothing was found on anyone or if it was in the tent?


I was just thinking that the 2 Yuris' had sustained burns to skin and hair, so surely they're clothes were also burned. I was thinking the source of the burned clothing found on the other bodies was the clothing on the Yuris, burned by the fire at the Cedar?

[Nigel Evans]

Hi All,

Thanks for the reply. I was just confused because I thought the Ravine 4 were wearing some of the Yuris' clothing items, meaning they had taken them off them after they had already expired? Which would mean the Yuri's died first?Most people seem to agree with the Yuri's dying first.


Also, how can we be sure that the clothes were burned by drying them on the stove and not by falling into the fire from the tree? I've seen only one photo of a jacket burned bc of the stove and am not sure if this item of clothing was found on anyone or if it was in the tent?Well Lyudmila was wearing burnt and torn trousers so it's a reasonable assumption that they belonged to Yuri K. The problem with the burnt clothing is that the evidence is ambiguous, was it burnt that night or previous nights on the stove? We'll never know for sure.


I was just thinking that the 2 Yuris' had sustained burns to skin and hair, so surely they're clothes were also burned. I was thinking the source of the burned clothing found on the other bodies was the clothing on the Yuris, burned by the fire at the Cedar?I'd agree with that but when were they burnt?...

[Star man]

What if they were propelled off of the ravine by some sort of explosion?

Weren't there burns on some of the ravine 4's clothing? Or is that assumed to be clothing worn by the Yuri's burned by the fire at the Cedar?
I suppose then there would have been damage to the trees above the ravine? And I'm assuming there would have been damage to skin from an explosion, unless they were insulated somehow.

What do you think of the bodies' orientation with regards to the stream? I think its weird they all landed up in a stream of flowing water. Do you assume it was running when they died? Or they lay upon a frozen over stream and died?

If it was unfrozen, perhaps they were trying to drink the water and were impacted, fell over into the water and died of their injuries?

Just trying to get an idea of why they were partially submerged. The bodies wouldn't have flowed downstream I don't think. The water flow doesn't seem strong enough, especially if it was partially frozen at that time. And Lyuda's body doesn't speak to that either. Am I correct in assuming she was found kneeling sort of upright with her stomach over rocks? Was there flowing water around her?

Or were the bodies moved into the water by the searchers for some reason??

May I ask why its assumed the Den never existed? If it didn't then the whole timeline is shot. I mean, I would assume those were the last 4 alive and that they had time to build a den. If it was a plant then they wouldn't have had time to build a shelter and they all likely died at the same time?? Is that what you are suggesting?

I think if there was a blast near the forest then there would be evidence in terms of damaged trees.

I don’t think the stream was flowing when they died.  It more began to flow during the thaw.

The position of the bodies indicates that they were lying together more or less, suggesting that they either went there themselves or were carried there.

The time line is something to be careful with. It appears that the rav 4 died before the two Yuris but I think that is about all we can conclude.

This is just an opinion though.

Regards
Star man

Apologies.  I meant to say the two Yuris died before the rav 4.  Got wires crossed in my brain.

Regards

Star man

[Clacon]

That's okay - this case tends to do that to brains. :)

[sarapuk]

From my experience of people being hit by cars, quite often apart from some bruising which comes out a day or two after the collision there is often no evidence of tissue damage even though people end up with broken ribs.  Sometimes a bone will puncture through the tissue but this is usually for limbs.

Regards
Star man

And your words ;
[[ I have estimated the forces involved to be between 2 and 2.5 tonnes delivered very rapidly.  In other words a fast impact.  Human beings can't deliver this level of force. ]]

[[ Thanks.  Yes pretty much like a car fall on you. ]]

I think the medical experts would say that there would definitely be skin damage after such a force hit the human body. SKIN / MUSCLE / BONE damage. Apparently Dubinina only had Bone damage  ! ?

From my experience, it seems that any cuts, abrasions and skin damage is a result of secondary impacts and scrapes as the body is propelled away, or if they go under the vehicle.

A fall for instance onto a relatively flat surface when you have layers of clothing on is more likely to cause an impact crush event, but only cuts to exposed skin of the head and hands etc.  obviously a fall from hundreds of feet would be a completely different ball game. 

Bruising is something that can take time to appear, but if you die before those bruises appear then it looks as if there is no tissue damage.

Regards

Star man

Yes a fall from hundreds of feet would definitely be a different ball game. From that sort of height we could expect such injuries to Dubinina's RIBS and also a lot more injuries to her body. And that really is the crux of this FALLING THEORY. The Ravine area didnt have any great height to it. And that is why even falling snow is highly unlikely to have caused any injuries to any of them.

[sarapuk]

What if they were propelled off of the ravine by some sort of explosion?

Weren't there burns on some of the ravine 4's clothing? Or is that assumed to be clothing worn by the Yuri's burned by the fire at the Cedar?
I suppose then there would have been damage to the trees above the ravine? And I'm assuming there would have been damage to skin from an explosion, unless they were insulated somehow.

What do you think of the bodies' orientation with regards to the stream? I think its weird they all landed up in a stream of flowing water. Do you assume it was running when they died? Or they lay upon a frozen over stream and died?

If it was unfrozen, perhaps they were trying to drink the water and were impacted, fell over into the water and died of their injuries?

Just trying to get an idea of why they were partially submerged. The bodies wouldn't have flowed downstream I don't think. The water flow doesn't seem strong enough, especially if it was partially frozen at that time. And Lyuda's body doesn't speak to that either. Am I correct in assuming she was found kneeling sort of upright with her stomach over rocks? Was there flowing water around her?

Or were the bodies moved into the water by the searchers for some reason??

May I ask why its assumed the Den never existed? If it didn't then the whole timeline is shot. I mean, I would assume those were the last 4 alive and that they had time to build a den. If it was a plant then they wouldn't have had time to build a shelter and they all likely died at the same time?? Is that what you are suggesting?

A lot of points raised here appear throughout the Forum. The DEN should really be considered a reference point because we dont really know if it was in fact a DEN.

[sarapuk]

Hi All,

Thanks for the reply. I was just confused because I thought the Ravine 4 were wearing some of the Yuris' clothing items, meaning they had taken them off them after they had already expired? Which would mean the Yuri's died first?


Also, how can we be sure that the clothes were burned by drying them on the stove and not by falling into the fire from the tree? I've seen only one photo of a jacket burned bc of the stove and am not sure if this item of clothing was found on anyone or if it was in the tent?


I was just thinking that the 2 Yuris' had sustained burns to skin and hair, so surely they're clothes were also burned. I was thinking the source of the burned clothing found on the other bodies was the clothing on the Yuris, burned by the fire at the Cedar?

Concerning the so called burnt clothing. We have no evidence to suggest how some of the clothing appeared to have been burned. Therefore like so many things in this mystery its any ones guess. Obviously the STOVE and the FIRE near the Cedar Tree are likely suspects for any burnt clothing. But there are some Investigators who think an ELECTRICAL phenomenon may have played a part.

[Star man]

From my experience of people being hit by cars, quite often apart from some bruising which comes out a day or two after the collision there is often no evidence of tissue damage even though people end up with broken ribs.  Sometimes a bone will puncture through the tissue but this is usually for limbs.

Regards
Star man

My thoughts are that they either fell from a ridge as they came down the slope, or from the cedar tree. 

Regards

Star man
And your words ;
[[ I have estimated the forces involved to be between 2 and 2.5 tonnes delivered very rapidly.  In other words a fast impact.  Human beings can't deliver this level of force. ]]

[[ Thanks.  Yes pretty much like a car fall on you. ]]

I think the medical experts would say that there would definitely be skin damage after such a force hit the human body. SKIN / MUSCLE / BONE damage. Apparently Dubinina only had Bone damage  ! ?

From my experience, it seems that any cuts, abrasions and skin damage is a result of secondary impacts and scrapes as the body is propelled away, or if they go under the vehicle.

A fall for instance onto a relatively flat surface when you have layers of clothing on is more likely to cause an impact crush event, but only cuts to exposed skin of the head and hands etc.  obviously a fall from hundreds of feet would be a completely different ball game. 

Bruising is something that can take time to appear, but if you die before those bruises appear then it looks as if there is no tissue damage.

Regards

Star man

Yes a fall from hundreds of feet would definitely be a different ball game. From that sort of height we could expect such injuries to Dubinina's RIBS and also a lot more injuries to her body. And that really is the crux of this FALLING THEORY. The Ravine area didnt have any great height to it. And that is why even falling snow is highly unlikely to have caused any injuries to any of them.