Order of deaths

[Star man]

Dyatlov could be almost to the cedar when he is tied and dragged until stuck in the bush and left there to die of cold.

Don't know how did I get separated by so many posts, I thought I am right behind Ehtnisba. If Dyatoov never made it ot the fire when did he get the vest from Doroshenko?

I'm highly sceptical of any murder theory, but the vest in itself might be a red herring. People share clothes on camping trips all the time, Igor could have been wearing it all day. It wasn't even really Doroshenko's - Yuri Yudin lent it to Doroshenko before he turned back.

I think there is a good possibility that Dyatlov got the sweater before the event.  Especially given the number of pieces of clothing that were lying around in the so called den . It could be said that these items were spare and yet the trio could have made good use of them but didn’t.? Suggests that they were not with the other two groups. 

Regards
Star man

[Teddy]

https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-11-20
Sheet 13
Who exactly does Yudin gave the vest to and how is this pertinent to the question how did the vest got on Dyatlov on the way from the tent if he never made it to the tent. The speculation that he wore it all day long doesn't map out because he had his own.

But I am with you about being sceptical of any murder theory. I very rarely engage in discussions and it never gets me anywhere.

[Ehtnisba]

Dyatlov could be almost to the cedar when he is tied and dragged until stuck in the bush and left there to die of cold.

Don't know how did I get separated by so many posts, I thought I am right behind Ehtnisba. If Dyatoov never made it ot the fire when did he get the vest from Doroshenko?

I'm highly sceptical of any murder theory, but the vest in itself might be a red herring. People share clothes on camping trips all the time, Igor could have been wearing it all day. It wasn't even really Doroshenko's - Yuri Yudin lent it to Doroshenko before he turned back.

I thought the same. Plus as WAB mentioned, Dyatlov is 50/50 ,did he go to cedar and right after up again for Zina ,or did he stop there and die...

[Ehtnisba]

The only thing that rings murder to me are the autopsy reports... Fight wounds.... Otherwise ,I don't know... Nothing adds up and I passed through 100s of possibilities, so I look at that case like everything is a "right' theory. I am only discounting the yeti and animal attack .

[Nordlander]

In the case of the Khanty "collective sacrifice" of eight Soviets, the members of the agit-brigade were initially taken as hostages. They were going to be used to exchange for some of the Khanty men in custody for the murder of Polina Schneider and other incidents in the Kayzhm rebellion. But then a shaman said they had to be put to death instead. If we think of this event as a possible precedent--though I'm not sure it is though the fact that the only nearby people were the "five wild Khanty" is suggestive--then I wonder if one group of the Dyatlovs were taken as hostages at some point. The first five seem like they were all tied up at some point, with the pugilistic stances and the abrasions on Zina's eyelids from a possible blindfold to the marks on Dyatlov's ankles that were more severe than those that are left by bands around the boots. I've used those rubber binders myself and they don't leave rope burn like Igor had.


So I am wondering if one group was hostages and the other got away at some point. Not sure exactly how that would work. I also think it is possible that one of them--Alex K or Tibo or Semyon--was not there during the initial march to the cedars. It looks like there were only eight sets of footprints if that.


Based on the group psychology, I think Rustem was the first to die. Unfortunately, I have been in fights or muggings and seen them (notice the US flag: lots of violence here, especially in the 70s), and it is pretty typical for an attacker to try to neutralize the strongest person. And often the strongest or biggest man will be the first to resist since he feels responsible for the rest. Also seems to fit with Rustem's psychology: he was the child of academics and knew a lot about different cultures, and he was likely the first to realize they were in deep, deep trouble and not just being robbed or searched. But, again, just speculation.


For the record, I think the ravine four were also tied up and laid down in the den. At first I thought the den was a typical of a WWII snow shelter and that Semyon had built it; it's the same kind we Cold War kids were taught to make. But when you think that they didn't have shovels, and that there is conflicting evidence about whether they had a knife to cut down the tree boughs and to cut off their clothes, I think it's more likely the attackers made it and that a sledge was run over them or that they were jumped on. How these wounds happened is to me the most mysteries part of the incident. Northern peoples are good at covering snow tracks. Then they were placed in the stream that became a mass grave, with some of them still alive.

[cennetkusu]

When three people from the group wanted to return to the tent, the superman decided to attack them. Because he wanted them to run into the tent and freeze to death. But instead of dying from the cold, the group wanted to take the risk and return to the tent. That was a great courage. Because the superman scared them a lot, and even without wearing his shoes, they ran away. But they were still willing to risk the cold, rather than die. And the most courageous İGOR RÜSTEM and ZİNA decided to return. And Superman attacked them from behind. İGORA ..... then RÜSTEM ... and ZİNA .... Rüstem was very sweaty running for running away. And the place where she died died of ice ... And Superman killed two Yuris. Then he attacked the last 4 feathers. There in the first place Kolevatov Tibo Semyon and the last Dubinina ...... He must have left his tongue out

[cennetkusu]

Most logical explanation should be such friends. It must be the order of death. And I'm sure this superman has a shock wave. Rib fractures can only be explained in this way. So the superman must be able to kill without touching it. I think the fire in the cedar tree did not burn long enough for the decision to return to the tent was effective. The fact that they cannot catch the fire can be because the trees are moist from snowfall and the weather is windy. That's why they decided to return to the tent.

[Ehtnisba]

I love the superman theory !

[cennetkusu]

I love the superman theory !

Because there is no other explanation for this incident. It could be superman or jinn.
 But I don't think the jinn can do that. Because I've never heard the demons kill people this way.And I haven't read it anywhere.

[WAB]

I think to me it is necessary write answer small parts because here too very much difficult it text is formatted.

Haha well thanks WAB, I may have never been there, but I am skiing in the mountains since 3 years old, so a common sense about falling comes to mind. Also from experience when I needed to climb uphill I know that 100m up are like 1000km down.

I think that it is small exaggeration, but I have understood sense of this phrase.

 But if you have walked a mile downhill bare feet in the dark , you will definitely not have the strength to go that much uphill again .

I would not tell so. We did such experiment in February 2014. My friend Shura in the same socks and in almost equivalent clothes, at temperature nearby-20C (-4 F) has passed all way from tent to cedar and back. Here video of this experiment:

There is some remarks in Russian but it have no value, because they exclusively technical.
After that Shura has made such platform which Dyatlov group should make. It was direct after returning to this place from cedar. It too is on video: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6J-XIhYsx39ZWlHOXkwZmVVbjg/view?usp=sharing
Possibilities of such actions are not defined only by clothes and cold, Dyatlov group had stress from the reason escape from tent, darkness of night, additional wind throughout half of slope and uncertainty of the position. I and Shura we know this place not worse than own ranch, and they at all did not know it, because have come here for the first time and already at decreasing illumination. Therefore it is necessary understand their actions on the basis of psychology of extreme situations.
In February of this year to Dyatlov pass go TV channel Discavery group left. Before their trip we long corresponded also I it suggested psychological experiment go on night on this slope when each of two different could insure I and Shura. We could guarantee safety if clients obey us implicitly and not do that was forbidden at first. We would not allow to them get to dangerous situation which was represented by stones on slippery slope. We would force them bypass this place, but have noted (and we have shown them) possible consequences.
They have kept silent about it, and have then got to the big frost on pass and I do not know that they there could shooting in general.

And this is not an even ski road like nowadays but wild slope .So yes going up after going down seems impossible to me.

It depends on that, results falling were how much serious. If they such as at Tibo or Slobodin, therefore Tibo could not go independently as 100 %, and Slobodin could creep only or at it the consciousness very quickly came to an end it could fall again there and then on place. Therefore it has frozen. Axelrod pays attention that under Slobodin there was snow layer, with ice signs. It means that the person lay on snow still very warm and slowly died.

Branch under Dyatlov arm is really messing up considerations of up or down. People believe that he as a leader decided to go up searching for Zina and he is relatively close to fire.
But I am wondering why Zolotaryov and Tibo didn't distributed clothes among the others with less, or you think both of them were injured and others decided they need clothes the most?

According to logic of events it turns out that they have been already wounded, when they have incorporated to others. But if Zolotaryov carry Tibo from place where that was traumatised, and the others (Dubinina and Kolevatov) have joined them later all turns out very logically. It is necessary understand only that all this group operated independently from other participants of Dyatlov group. Then there will be no contradictions. All actions should be considered in space and in time. And, under laws of the information entropy, each following action should be proved the purpose, possibility it make and sufficient time for this purpose. Anything from arises nothing and does not disappear completely. It have established Michael Lomonosov and Antoine Lavoisier in a XVIII-th century. From these positions also it is necessary consider all actions.

As I remember one of them had gloves in his pocket ,,, why nobody used them? And why the unbuttoned pockets and jackets . I thought that with very frozen fingers you are unable to button or zip a jacket. Sometimes even unable to put gloves on cause fingers are like cheese bending and totally dead from cold. I wrote this theory in the topic Katabatic Wind

I have quickly seen it messages and I will not speak yet about details, but I can tell that here play dominant role not only the frozen fingers.

end #1

[WAB]

Yes,because of the blood searchers reported and also from the look of her head in the morgue. But I am not a pathologist to consider it for sure.
Seeing the terrain in your photo makes sense that a person walking in the dark could cause a severe injuries to himself . I imagined it only snow . She was only 500-800 m from the tent. Is it possible her strength to be so small that she didn't make it further? Especially in survival mode? Or if she was walking alone lost from the group this made a crucial impact ot her will and psychological state so she just gave up?

Most likely, not that if you have resulted it. Many of those who knew it, characterise it as the person strong-willed and strong in the sense. It is more probable that she long wandered on slope, for example, because it seemed to it that where that nearby is other people, and she wanted approach to them. The distance on straight line on which it has been found, does not speak about what. Its way and time for this purpose could be very big. Besides, she could earlier start search for possibility come to tent. But that it has not come to fire and cedar is already enough obvious.

weather reports were minimum -10 C that night.

The information from meteorological station Burmantovo does not coincide that was on pass. Besides, it is necessary know precisely for what moment of time there is necessary information. In that day and night from the North the cold front of anticyclone moved ahead. Its speed was to 40 km/hour (21,5 kt).
In January 2015 when we were on pass and sat under wind as 30 m/s at temperature-18C …-20C, the weather archive on Burmantovo gave speed of wind 3 … 4 m/s and temperature-10C …-12C With the same success it was possible take temperature in London, for example … 

Could you freeze so fast at -10 ?

Could. Even at +2С could, it is possible for more period. I gave example such case.

I had mild hypothermia symptoms at -1 in the UK after 5-6 hours outside in light clothes ,but humidity and wind were really high.
So at -10 and wind without clothes maybe an hour or 2 hours?

No. Here statistics is not correct criterion. The more general case, it is when analyzed balance losses of heat and possibility compensate it. While the human can move to he not cold. Sometimes even hot. Probably for this reason and some participants of Dyatlov group did not use some things. But it is necessary stop (on strong frost) and very quickly muscles will cease work well enough. Sometimes it is border between life and slow dying on cold.

you maybe see that I am    between several theories and one of them is that outsider/s made the group escape the tent on gunpoint.

Before develop this theory, it is necessary think logistics of how these strangers could get there in due time and how (and what for?) they could find tent. After it will be found out that it in 1959 was almost impossible, all these theories will leave at once in recycle bin. The question with that that is not present traces is separate theme, but I know that it is impossible hide traces in the winter. If for them searched well and it competent people, did this one more acknowledgement from absence of strangers. And that pass (especially in the winter 1959), it is not Gajd-park, and the nearest people there is for 60 … 80 km (35 … 50 mi), is additional trump against strangers.
Once again I remind analysis method: the purpose, possibilities physical, possibilities on time, realities 1959.

In different topics in the forum I am expressing different thoughts and this way trying to find the right ones. For example in the topic for Katabatic Wind ,I wrote about personal experience how me and my friends escaped from a tent due to extreme cold and frozen limbs and suggested it for a reason.

Here at all that case. They have specially come on this place for this purpose what get used to such conditions. All has begun when there was external factor. I think that any group in this case would appear in the same position.

So about Rustem, what intrigues me is that he had injuries /bruising on both sides of his head . Which means that he had hit his head twice and chance of this happening on both his sides so symmetrical are odd. Also his eyes are reported to be bruised and swollen .
That is why he seem curious case for me. I will read your topic about him today.

Too it is possible explain this case. Only now it is necessary combine all signs together. At strong head injury these signs can be shown simultaneously from one reason. The brain bruise (probably very strong) gives all these signs together.

end #2

[WAB]

I saw the canvas bindings , I was thinking about the position of his hands on his chest. Usually tied hands are in this position and I read an article about Mansis way of killing by binding victims to die in the cold and dragged with sledges . Northlander found a book where a case from 1930s is reported about Russians killed by Mansi . 

Here there is misunderstanding, and very serious.
1.This very different time. З0-е years and the end 50, it is very different 2 epoch. You will not compare modern air liner and plane of Right brothers?
2.It is 2 different people. There it is question of Hunts. Certainly it is one ethnic group, but Mansi live in other conditions and at them slightly other customs. It is how compare Russian and Ukrainian or Englishman and Scotsman. And still it is necessary understand, in each people there are extremists. It is impossible smear all with one paint
3.It is not necessary refer to literature, only historic facts here suit. And authentic. History, sometimes, deform please to whom that specially. So it is possible reach what do conclusions on the basis of films of Hollywood.

So I am speculating about Dyatlov, because he is the only one with curious pose and questions about going up or down. Also who dies face up when cold? Usually you crumble .... 

By the way, it is necessary tell about poses. Look attentively at pictures from mortuary. Practically all of them first five, have curling elements “in pose as baby”. Elements because in the pure state it practically does not meet. As well as pure oxygen meets only in artificial vessels.
I do not know, that surprising in its pose? Probably, he at falling tried be late for branches. But their durability was small and it has fallen to back. In stage of strong overcooling brain work is very strongly complicated and many instinctive movements and instability.

But again I may say I remember that once out of complete exhaustion while climbing a slope in snow I laid face up due to easier breathing ,but my hands were spread along the body not on my chest. Maybe when he tried to get up he couldn't and his hand remained in this position holding the branch for support...

Can be and so, but it, at strong overcooling could not rise any more. And hands start tighten to trunk and be turned off when feel strong cold. At dynamic process of transition in uncontrollable phase of freezing, it is not observed almost curling signs. If only on instinct…

Unfortunately my time has ended today. If I can I will continue to write tomorrow. Excuse for inconvenient reading. I too do not love, when it is necessary to interrupt a continuity of thoughts.

[WAB]

I want continue and finish that has begun yesterday …

So you think Zolotaryov, Luda and Tibo had already been injured when they reached the fire?

I so think also I have found some indirect acknowledgement that they all did not approach to fire. Kolevatov because it unique who did not have wounds could make it only.

And that is why only 2 Yuris were climbing the tree for firewood? As I find fire to be the most important thing I think that more than 2 people should have been involved in keeping it with firewood.

No. There it is necessary do not so many actions as it seems at first. It is enough have work only for two man. In this winter Shura has found many any small fire wood for fire around it and did not get at all to cedar up. I understand that in such 1959 fire wood was much less because now the vegetation around cedar became thick, small fire wood has started grow more intensively. The climate became warmer on all earth, therefore so has occurred.
In 1959 it was less and man have been compelled break boughs from cedar. It was more diameter, than we could find now. The Shura`s fire is looked after it has gone out (picture 2). It was through 40 … 50 minutes after it has started it to light (picture 1).
 

Pic. #1
Fire at beginning.
 

Pic. #2
Fire at morning.

Also in autopsy report the coroner assumes that Luda had only 20 mins to live after her injury, so if she received it on the slope or in tent how she was still alive at fire and in the den .

1.Koroner be rights in the estimation. I tell it even because 3 days ago talked with Koroner dr. Edward Tumanov. It is and his estimation too
2.By my estimations it (and Simeon Zolotaryov simultaneously!) has got wound close (20 … 40 metrs) from that place where them have found. There is suitable place.
3.It did not approach to fire in general.
4.It has been found in 6 … 8 metrs from den.

Fire is estimated to be burning for 2 hours and going downhill an hour or so ..this makes it 3 hours in which all 6 were alive?

Yes. It is estimation of time burning fire with that fire wood which were 1959 in fire. It was given by Evgenie Maslennikov and much very qualified travellers. This estimation is quite competent in my opinion.
It has been begun from that time when the fire has inflamed, therefore consider here descent time not correctly. And this time considers that the fire was kindled by those two Yuras who have found about cedar.
To estimate who it was live (or who was already dead) concerning time of ignition or fire attenuation is impossible. There is no objective information. It is possible tell only that 2 Yuras were live when fire lighted, and could not that do when it has faded. The rest concerns variants which can be thought up, but it is impossible confirm.

Good point indeed. I am looking at peoples characters today and from my generation and experience. From old people I know the rule that in the mountain individualists are not accepted.
[/quote]

It was always at all people which constantly live in … or often face extreme situations. Without such way of life they would not manage survive in general.

[Ehtnisba]

Hi WAB,
The videos from the pass are very useful. I think you should put them in a sticky topic somewhere, because they show the place in a whole and as a feeling and vibes too. For me they work better than any 3D model or map or photos.
So from the video with Shura I see how he slips at some places . Also I noticed how quick he descended and didn't fall at all. Of course during daylight , but again even in the dark I find the abrasions on their bodies too much for this place. Also I noticed the tracks Shura left by walking relatively fast with small steps and now looking at steps photos from 1959 I may assume hikers were actually running or at least walking with a lot bigger space between steps. Opposite to Shura's walk who made it the right way to be safe. Hikers were probably running downhill,hence more falls and abrasions. Question is from what they were running?
Other thing I observed in the video is how vast is this place and how desolate it feels ... Also sun seems very close to the horizon and I suppose daylight in winter is few hours. So it is getting dark very early and even through the day sun is relatively low casting long shadows . They had little time to ascend the slope and pitch the tent ,maybe even they finished pitching it while already dark and made some mistakes due to poor visibility...
I really can't imagine how a person could survive in this area with so old equipment as one from 59... Kind of like they were going to a sure death there in these conditions. Amazing strength to make this trip !
Did Shura tore his socks? One main point people are noticing is that socks of hikers were intact ,no tears, no wear off ... They suppose that from the walk in the dark and the rocks they must have some tears.
And of course the main mystery - injuries in ravine 4.  Yes,both Vuzrojdenii and Tumanov confirmed they had around 20 mins to live so their injuries must have happened near the ravine. I have read your post about the dynamics of fall and calculations about their injuries. Do you remember in which topic is that post so I can see it again?

[Marchesk]

There is no clear order though. My guess:

• Slobodin
• Zina
• Igor
• Doroshenko
• Krivonischenko
• Lyuda
• Tibo
• Zolotaryov
• Kolevatov

(Bold is my addition)

Why would Zina have died second, potentially on the way down from the tent? I didn't think she had any life threatening injuries, and her cause of death was determined to be hypothermia. Which doesn't make a lot of sense given that she was fairly well dressed. And it makes no sense if she died descending. It would need to be hours later, unless there was some other cause such as poison or suffocation.

[Clacon]

Marchesk - interested to see what your take is on "order of death" and reasons why.

Are you still of the mindset that something kept them away from the tent for all those hours, or could they simply have been lost and disorientated and not able to find their way back?

Thanks :)

[Marchesk]

Marchesk - interested to see what your take is on "order of death" and reasons why.

Are you still of the mindset that something kept them away from the tent for all those hours, or could they simply have been lost and disorientated and not able to find their way back?

Thanks :)

I seriously doubt they were lost and couldn't find their way back to the tent. It's possible they became disoriented if poisoning were the cause. I think they couldn't go back to the tent for whatever reason, although it doesn't explain why it looks like two or three of them tried to in the end.

The order of death depends on the theory, but I'll stick with the two Yuri's dying around the fire first. I have no idea where to slot Rustem's death. I don't know whether his head injury came before his final resting spot, and whether that occurred at or inside the tent.

The whole thing is a mystery with seventy-some possible explanations in which none of them is completely consistent with all the known evidence. And that's probably because some of the evidence is wrong, given how the investigation went down.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Exactly Chivruay and Korovina group shows us a pettern that people act on their own when they face death. I don't see activity except for the 2 at cedar. Other 4 were in my opinion separate from the fire for reasons unknown..maybe Zolotaryov argued that much better strategy is to find shelter instead of building fire and they just split. If I was there I would choose to believe in the strategy of a wwII veteran and will stick to him,hence more people in the ravine and only 2 at cedar .

At the DPI i see a group of previously friendly people with a lot of energy engaged in tasks that take significant time, collecting firewood, cutting down saplings, building a fire, building a den floor (at the very least), climbing a tree. But they've abandoned their friends to die a few hundred metres away? No way it doesn't fit.

They collected next to nothing in regards to firewood and the only dry wood is hanging dead on the cedar.

They cut a handful of saplings, and saplings by their very definition are small hence easy to break/cut.

How long do you suppose it took 9 people to start a fire with twigs? 

The den...... mother of all possible conspiracy theories, and it had like 8 twigs. 

I call BS.... they didn't accomplish very much. 

[Clacon]

It took a long time to start the fire. That accounts for a lot of time, actually....time I couldn't account for until now. But why not go back to the tent??

We "know" it burned for two hours. So it probably wasn't the first project they started after fleeing the camp. perhaps they went to the Ravine first then?

And how did they start the fire anyway?? Matches? Kolevatov and Rustem were the only ones with them on them and they weren't at the Cedar when they died?

Another conundrum :(

[Loose}{Cannon]

Nobody knows how long it took to start the fire, and it does not require 9 people.

[Clacon]

Thanks.

[cennetkusu]

Nobody knows how long it took to start the fire, and it does not require 9 people.
The researchers found many dozens of matches near the cedar tree. This proves that they've been working a long time to burn the fire. (And since it is already covered with snow, the trees are wet, which makes it difficult to light the fire and take a long time.)

[Loose}{Cannon]

Anyone ever time how long it takes to light 24 wood matches?   You realize that in a situation like this, you would light several matches at the same time?

[cennetkusu]

Anyone ever time how long it takes to light 24 wood matches?   You realize that in a situation like this, you would light several matches at the same time?

24 matches only. It is very likely that there are many matches that are not found and burned. Both very cold windy and moist branches are very difficult to burn. It probably took them a long time to light the fire. And there are already many dry branches around the fire. That means they didn't catch the fire for a long time. They decided to return to the tent if they could not fire for a long time and faced death. Kolevatov Semyon Tibo and Dubinina would not leave the fire if they continued to burn fire for a long time.The question is: Semyon and his friends are doing it in the snow because they can't keep the fire going. But why do 2 Yuri stay near the fire ??? Why are they not leaving the fire ???

[cennetkusu]

Maybe only 2 Yuri died from hypothermia. Others stayed with them until they died. Then they made 4 caves in the snow. And all three decided to go back to the tent. But the death of a person at -20 degrees Celsius is normally 5-6 hours. But if the person is in fear and sweaty, it may be 1-2 hours. Probably young people were fearful and sweaty. Rustemin's evidence. When Rustem died, his ice was cold. This is proof that his body is very sweaty and warm. It was all that was possible.

[cennetkusu]

I'm sure the attacker is too fast. Because young people have never found time to defend themselves. This is from the death positions. Especially the four-side side. They couldn't escape the attack. Only Dubinina 2-3 mt. He was able to get away. I think it is a sudden wave of heart to death because of the shock wave. Hands are usually seen close to the heart ...

[Clacon]

Cennetkusu….I'm agreeing. It must have taken a long time to start a fire under those conditions i.e. damp twigs. What did they use for kindling?? Besides little damp twigs?? Articles of clothing? Either way, I don't see them lighting a fire fast.

Today I'm stuck on the matches used to start the fire at the Cedar.

Coz they must have used matches right?

Q1: Whats the consensus on the matches in terms of:
1) the only box of matches found outside the tent were on Rustem and Kolevatov (please correct me if I'm wrong) but neither of them were found at the Cedar,   
    so....one of them helped start the fire at the Cedar and so one of them was AT the Cedar and then set off into the Ravine or back up the slope.....
OR
2) The Yuris started the fire and used up their matches.

If 1 then:
a) Rustem helps start the fire and then goes back to the tent - evidence he dies on the way back to the tent and not going to the Cedar;
bi.) Kolevatov helps start the fire and then goes to the Ravine - evidence that he spent an amount of time at the Cedar; OR
ii.) Kolevatov takes matches AND clothes from the Yuris and goes back to the Ravine (evidence of just that)

I'm just trying to establish who might have been where at what time....

Q2) If the fire took a while to start, had others set off into the Ravine to find shelter in the meantime?
Possible answer: Not likely because the Yuris' clothes were distributed amongst the Ravine 4 - UNLESS they came back to the bodies to retrieve the clothing??

Q3) If it took 2 of the Rav 4 to succumb to their injuries in 20 minutes, then
a.) they were injured in the Ravine OR
b.) They were not injured in the Ravine but elsewhere and were taken to the Ravine by the others....who did not realize their comrades were likely already dead (this is of course contingent on how long it took to get to the Ravine from either the tent or the Cedar....I believe I read somewhere it took longer than 20 minutes to reach the Cedar from the tent)

Thoughts?? Feelings??

[Star man]

Cennetkusu….I'm agreeing. It must have taken a long time to start a fire under those conditions i.e. damp twigs. What did they use for kindling?? Besides little damp twigs?? Articles of clothing? Either way, I don't see them lighting a fire fast.

Today I'm stuck on the matches used to start the fire at the Cedar.

Coz they must have used matches right?

Q1: Whats the consensus on the matches in terms of:
1) the only box of matches found outside the tent were on Rustem and Kolevatov (please correct me if I'm wrong) but neither of them were found at the Cedar,   
    so....one of them helped start the fire at the Cedar and so one of them was AT the Cedar and then set off into the Ravine or back up the slope.....
OR
2) The Yuris started the fire and used up their matches.

If 1 then:
a) Rustem helps start the fire and then goes back to the tent - evidence he dies on the way back to the tent and not going to the Cedar;
bi.) Kolevatov helps start the fire and then goes to the Ravine - evidence that he spent an amount of time at the Cedar; OR
ii.) Kolevatov takes matches AND clothes from the Yuris and goes back to the Ravine (evidence of just that)

I'm just trying to establish who might have been where at what time....

Q2) If the fire took a while to start, had others set off into the Ravine to find shelter in the meantime?
Possible answer: Not likely because the Yuris' clothes were distributed amongst the Ravine 4 - UNLESS they came back to the bodies to retrieve the clothing??

Q3) If it took 2 of the Rav 4 to succumb to their injuries in 20 minutes, then
a.) they were injured in the Ravine OR
b.) They were not injured in the Ravine but elsewhere and were taken to the Ravine by the others....who did not realize their comrades were likely already dead (this is of course contingent on how long it took to get to the Ravine from either the tent or the Cedar....I believe I read somewhere it took longer than 20 minutes to reach the Cedar from the tent)

Thoughts?? Feelings??

It would seem Kolevatov was definitely at the cedar.  He may have taken the matches from the Yuris as you suggest.  I think the Yuris or possibly all of them in the group tried to lite the fire as the evidence suggest they harvested branches from the cedar to make the fire.  If Kolevatov had found the Yuris I doubt he would have tried to lite the fire and spent the time harvesting the branches when his other friends were injured in the ravine.  So it's likely that:

Either the Yuris lit the fire and their matches/match box was taken or
There were other group members there who helped to lite the fire.

Regards

Star man

[sarapuk]

The Order Of Deaths should have been established at the Post Mortem. So how on Earth do you think you are going to establish it now 60 years later   !  ?