The wind plays its own music

[sarapuk]

Hello everyone ,
I am an old member of the facebook group, but this is my first time writting here. I decided to finally write here and exacrly in this topoc,because this is where I have a personal experience. And when I first read about Dyatlov Pass and tried to compare it to my own experience my first thought was that extreme cold could cause panick in a way they really could have abandon their tent. But let me explain I support the theory only about hy they have left thw tent. Ravine 4 are really a mistery. But..... If we assume their body damages are POST mortem then they are not...
I will not write more about Dyatlov group. I will try to present my experience in similar situations and also only the experience of when me and my friends were in our early 20s.
My father is a mountaineer and I was on ski since the age of 3. The mountain near my home city is not very high (2025m) ,but is famous for its bad weather, and the said strong downhill winds. Let's say I have been there every weekend from December til May for more then 20 years.
These winds are strong,yes. And by strong I mean they are possible to turn you on the ground. In that said mountain there are even cases of turned trees ,but very rare. The point is I  familiar with their sound,strength ,coldness etc... I know that a tent layed down the slope will resist them ,because it is low and these winds act mostly in vicinity. But... This is easy to be said in theory and in day light and in normal situation. What happened once to me and my friends is to show me that in reality people react differently in spite of knowledge and yes sounds of winds and dark and cold CAN effect your reason.
10 years ago me and two guys were up there to ski in fresh snow . It was almost spring and the weather was relatively warm so we wanted to sleep in our tent and catch more fresh snow in the morning. Our tent was in a forest . At about 12 am temperatures dropped , and because we were half asleep probably 2-3 hours passed without us realising that we are actually freezing . By freezing I mean, fingers already numb, speech is hard to be maintained,severe shaking. Imagine waking up in such state. You are already in a bad shape and what you realise is that tent is NOT safe place,because you cannot move to slow down the freezing. Our fingers were so numb we couldn't zip our jackets or unzip the tent. The fingers were numb and twisting like there were no bones and muscles in them. So,even though all of us knew the mountain,knew we are just 40 mins ride from nearest city and even a forest hut was nearby, we were in panic. We couldn't even open the tent,we knew if we stay we may not die,but for sure our limbs would be damaged. So what we did was very similar to what Dyatlov tent looked like. We teared the canvas with lighter - modern tents are polyester I think, so the fire of the lighter melted the fabric and then from the melted holes just stretched the holes with our elbows and bodies. Shoes were impossible to be put on without working fingers . We were well and with no severe frost bite,just because there was a hut with people and fire just 100-200m away. I don't know if there wasn't a hut nearby,if we would have escaped the tent too. I suppose yes, we would have done it and  maybe die or not,but in this situation staying IN the tent was = sertain freezing if not to death to loosing limbs. And in such state you don't think clear no matter the experience. Very experienced mountaineers die too from irrational decisions . Nobodies experience is stronger than cold and nature. And Dyatlov group were just a 20 years old , with not so many winter expeditions behind their backs. Pitching a tent on bare slope without firewood is already a play with death....
But I can't explain the severe body damages to ravine 4 .... I am starting to think that broken ribs are sustained post mortem and that the coroner just did slopy work...who knows.... What do you think?

This is an interesting story. But can we really use it to help us with the Dyatlov Mystery ? Actually yes we can. It helps to highlight one of the contentious issues. The issue of the COLD. I to have been out on a Mountainside in freezing conditions but not camped out. I can visualize the danger of cold but if I was camping out in a remote area like the Dyatlov Group were I would want to be sure of having adequate clothing and equipment for the location and any severe weather conditions. And the Dyatlov Group did have adequate clothing and equipment. Having said that we know that many Himalayan expeditions get into difficulty with extreme low temperatures and unfortunately many people die as a result. However with the Dyatlov Group, by all accounts, they all managed to leave the Tent but some better clothed than others. They then walk a mile or so and set up a fire after having climbed a tree and some appear to have tried to make a Den  !  ?  You wouldnt do any of this if you were in a state of severe cold verging on FROSTBITE etc. And of course there are the extraordinary injuries and possible RADIATION  etc.

[Ehtnisba]

Hello everyone ,
I am an old member of the facebook group, but this is my first time writting here. I decided to finally write here and exacrly in this topoc,because this is where I have a personal experience. And when I first read about Dyatlov Pass and tried to compare it to my own experience my first thought was that extreme cold could cause panick in a way they really could have abandon their tent. But let me explain I support the theory only about hy they have left thw tent. Ravine 4 are really a mistery. But..... If we assume their body damages are POST mortem then they are not...
I will not write more about Dyatlov group. I will try to present my experience in similar situations and also only the experience of when me and my friends were in our early 20s.
My father is a mountaineer and I was on ski since the age of 3. The mountain near my home city is not very high (2025m) ,but is famous for its bad weather, and the said strong downhill winds. Let's say I have been there every weekend from December til May for more then 20 years.
These winds are strong,yes. And by strong I mean they are possible to turn you on the ground. In that said mountain there are even cases of turned trees ,but very rare. The point is I  familiar with their sound,strength ,coldness etc...

Interesting story.  I can understand how the cold can make your arms and hands useless.  I have experienced a much more simple situation that was not life threatening.  I was skiing and forgot toput my gloves on which were clipped together on my jacket.  I got onto a chair lift and by the time I got to the top I couldn't use my hands to unclip my gloves.

Let me ask.  When you did leave the tent what did you take with you?  Did you put any outer clothes on?  Did you carry your shoes?  Did you slip your feet into your shoes without fastening them?

In the Dpi there is evidence that they left in areal hurry.  Slobodin did manage to put one boot on, but not the other.  Some of the group were better dressed - Semyon and Kolevatov.  They could have helped the others to put on their warm clothing.

They were able to use matches to light a fire, and they were able to cut fir tree branches with a knife.  They could climb trees and they could use a flashlight.

It doesn't seem like they were all suffering numb fingers and hands.

Regards

Star man

You are absolutely right. It would be impossible to hold  and press a fire stick and produce fire with numb fingers. You can hold it,but it would be impossible to apply the pressure needed to fire it... That's the miatery about this case - nothing fits all. But,yeah,they were more people. And the not so frozen ones could have helped and dress the others.... This what never fits with the tent. In any situation natural they would have definetely took their clothes and shoes. Dead matches prove that therr were people with working limbs among them....
But let me answer your questions :
.  When you did leave the tent what did you take with you?
We were asleep for about 2-3 hours, and when we woke in panick with humb limbs it was a little bit past 12 am. Very important and different fact from DPI,is that we KNEW that there is hut with people nearby, so knowing this we took nothing. My ID and money were in my inner pocket . Telephone was next to my head so I took it and managed to put it in my outher pocket. But  I am sure that even without hut nearby in that state I wouldn't bother to think about other valuables . But I would have thought of getting at least a little bread in my other pocket or raw bars (food) . Very important to preserve your body temperature longer. So here it is another oddity. If they were leaving the tent due to freezing and wind why not try to take at least a little food that searchers said was spread all over. Or maybe they have taken food with them,that's why the bread crusts and other left overs messed in the tent??? Is that possible?

  Did you put any outer clothes on?
We were sleeping with almost all clothes on,only jackets were off in a pile and shoes off too. We took our jackets, hats and face masks. Skishoes are from hard plastic and not able to walk in them. Our "indoor" shoes were just normal city boots , UGG type, so you could say similar to valenki . They seem so easy to put on, but when when your fingers can't hold the end so you could push your foot in them ,this was a task impossible. We left them. But again we knew there is hut. If therr wasn't I am almost sure that I would have try even with my teeth to put those shoes on or at least take them somehow with me,maybe the way Rustem was wearing his insoles,by putting them under my clothes ....but I really don't know if this was possible. Couls only imagine it in situation in wilderness....

  Did you carry your shoes?
Hah, already answered. No, because we couldn't use hands to put them on our feet. But in inhabited area would at least take them somehow
 Did you slip your feet into your shoes without fastening them?
They were UGG type ,valenki type,so no laces which made them.harder to put with no way of widening the foot entrance .

Whole situation was very far from DPI, but I just wanted to give as an example how easy you could be in panick no matter that you are familiar with the area and how much you know in theory and from previous experience. And how you could overestimate weather and personal strenght. Because almost everyone implies "Dyatlov group were experienced"... Yes, but not immortal, and still humans with psychological reaction like panick,stress, dizziness from cold and tiredness. So, yes, it is very likely the made a mistake. Maybe they wanted to prove themselves by sleeping on an open slope. I remember this desire for proving yourself and others how tough and brave you are when you are in your early 20s. Now and then young people share same traits and foolishness. We have to admit that.
But everything else after the escape of the tent doesn't fit at all.... Everything else screams "murder" to me. Why? By who? How? .... If natural cause, then why all the inconsistencies in the investigation - wrong dates, slopy authopsies with missing words (Dubinina after hyoid bone xxxxx ) , testimonies that differ from each other, missing radiograms from the day Patrushev said he had seen two bodies next to tent, his very soon death after few years, etc,etc.....

[Ehtnisba]

You wouldnt do any of this if you were in a state of severe cold verging on FROSTBITE etc. And of course there are the extraordinary injuries and possible RADIATION  etc.

Yes , this exactly were the theory ends. Like I answered Star Man, you wouldn't be able to use your hands for fire sticks, and you would.definetely at least take some shoes and jackets. If all of them were with jackets and shoes but only unzipped and unbuttoned then we could have explained that with frozen numb limbs...

[Star man]

Hello everyone ,
I am an old member of the facebook group, but this is my first time writting here. I decided to finally write here and exacrly in this topoc,because this is where I have a personal experience. And when I first read about Dyatlov Pass and tried to compare it to my own experience my first thought was that extreme cold could cause panick in a way they really could have abandon their tent. But let me explain I support the theory only about hy they have left thw tent. Ravine 4 are really a mistery. But..... If we assume their body damages are POST mortem then they are not...
I will not write more about Dyatlov group. I will try to present my experience in similar situations and also only the experience of when me and my friends were in our early 20s.
My father is a mountaineer and I was on ski since the age of 3. The mountain near my home city is not very high (2025m) ,but is famous for its bad weather, and the said strong downhill winds. Let's say I have been there every weekend from December til May for more then 20 years.
These winds are strong,yes. And by strong I mean they are possible to turn you on the ground. In that said mountain there are even cases of turned trees ,but very rare. The point is I  familiar with their sound,strength ,coldness etc...

Interesting story.  I can understand how the cold can make your arms and hands useless.  I have experienced a much more simple situation that was not life threatening.  I was skiing and forgot toput my gloves on which were clipped together on my jacket.  I got onto a chair lift and by the time I got to the top I couldn't use my hands to unclip my gloves.

Let me ask.  When you did leave the tent what did you take with you?  Did you put any outer clothes on?  Did you carry your shoes?  Did you slip your feet into your shoes without fastening them?

In the Dpi there is evidence that they left in areal hurry.  Slobodin did manage to put one boot on, but not the other.  Some of the group were better dressed - Semyon and Kolevatov.  They could have helped the others to put on their warm clothing.

They were able to use matches to light a fire, and they were able to cut fir tree branches with a knife.  They could climb trees and they could use a flashlight.

It doesn't seem like they were all suffering numb fingers and hands.

Regards

Star man

You are absolutely right. It would be impossible to hold  and press a fire stick and produce fire with numb fingers. You can hold it,but it would be impossible to apply the pressure needed to fire it... That's the miatery about this case - nothing fits all. But,yeah,they were more people. And the not so frozen ones could have helped and dress the others.... This what never fits with the tent. In any situation natural they would have definetely took their clothes and shoes. Dead matches prove that therr were people with working limbs among them....
But let me answer your questions :
.  When you did leave the tent what did you take with you?
We were asleep for about 2-3 hours, and when we woke in panick with humb limbs it was a little bit past 12 am. Very important and different fact from DPI,is that we KNEW that there is hut with people nearby, so knowing this we took nothing. My ID and money were in my inner pocket . Telephone was next to my head so I took it and managed to put it in my outher pocket. But  I am sure that even without hut nearby in that state I wouldn't bother to think about other valuables . But I would have thought of getting at least a little bread in my other pocket or raw bars (food) . Very important to preserve your body temperature longer. So here it is another oddity. If they were leaving the tent due to freezing and wind why not try to take at least a little food that searchers said was spread all over. Or maybe they have taken food with them,that's why the bread crusts and other left overs messed in the tent??? Is that possible?

  Did you put any outer clothes on?
We were sleeping with almost all clothes on,only jackets were off in a pile and shoes off too. We took our jackets, hats and face masks. Skishoes are from hard plastic and not able to walk in them. Our "indoor" shoes were just normal city boots , UGG type, so you could say similar to valenki . They seem so easy to put on, but when when your fingers can't hold the end so you could push your foot in them ,this was a task impossible. We left them. But again we knew there is hut. If therr wasn't I am almost sure that I would have try even with my teeth to put those shoes on or at least take them somehow with me,maybe the way Rustem was wearing his insoles,by putting them under my clothes ....but I really don't know if this was possible. Couls only imagine it in situation in wilderness....

  Did you carry your shoes?
Hah, already answered. No, because we couldn't use hands to put them on our feet. But in inhabited area would at least take them somehow
 Did you slip your feet into your shoes without fastening them?
They were UGG type ,valenki type,so no laces which made them.harder to put with no way of widening the foot entrance .

Whole situation was very far from DPI, but I just wanted to give as an example how easy you could be in panick no matter that you are familiar with the area and how much you know in theory and from previous experience. And how you could overestimate weather and personal strenght. Because almost everyone implies "Dyatlov group were experienced"... Yes, but not immortal, and still humans with psychological reaction like panick,stress, dizziness from cold and tiredness. So, yes, it is very likely the made a mistake. Maybe they wanted to prove themselves by sleeping on an open slope. I remember this desire for proving yourself and others how tough and brave you are when you are in your early 20s. Now and then young people share same traits and foolishness. We have to admit that.
But everything else after the escape of the tent doesn't fit at all.... Everything else screams "murder" to me. Why? By who? How? .... If natural cause, then why all the inconsistencies in the investigation - wrong dates, slopy authopsies with missing words (Dubinina after hyoid bone xxxxx ) , testimonies that differ from each other, missing radiograms from the day Patrushev said he had seen two bodies next to tent, his very soon death after few years, etc,etc.....

I think you make an important point about the cold.  It's important to understand how the cold can affect the body.  It may be that the cold had some part to play in the events, but I think at least some of the group were able to use their hands and fingers.  It also appears that they left the tent and camp in a hurry.  Again this is a perception based on them leaving their shoes, clothes and other equipment, but it could be wrong.

I don't think there was any murder or foul play, but this is just an opinion.

Regards

Star man

[Ehtnisba]

The last theories to be probable in my opinion are the natural ones.... It just doesn't seem natural. Yeah, for sure , nature has big role for their deaths. But their injuries are so obviously injuries caused by some attack or weapon or ..something that is not cold,wind,avalanche,animal,bacteria,decomposition or so. The theory about gravity fluctuation is the craziest one :O
https://dyatlovpass.com/theories#gravity
https://dyatlovpass.com/theories#gravity

Auhtorities even wanted to bury the hikers in Ivdel so less people attend the funerals and ask questions. Nobody does this with natural cause of death,,, like so many inconsistencies,,,missing case number, wrong date as 6.II , missing radiogram from 25th February while all other days are present, and 25th is the day pilot Karpushin reported about seeing two bodies NEXT to the tent,,, so no radiogram of that day...Now this new body , that probably is Kolevatov with missing eyes found in February , not in May after decomposition,,etc,etc.

But yeah I also think that sleeping in extreme conditions and waking in the middle of the night half frozen could cause panick and irrational thinking, and could make people leave their shelter because they could freeze in it if not moving. This could be the start of all other events that happened after they left their tent in fear of dying from cold. Maybe the hostile thing/people saw them in the forest because of the fire and then the violence started for some reason . This is why I wanted to explain my thoughts about leaving the tent due to extreme weather conditions, but not their deaths and all after.

[sarapuk]

The last theories to be probable in my opinion are the natural ones.... It just doesn't seem natural. Yeah, for sure , nature has big role for their deaths. But their injuries are so obviously injuries caused by some attack or weapon or ..something that is not cold,wind,avalanche,animal,bacteria,decomposition or so. The theory about gravity fluctuation is the craziest one :O
https://dyatlovpass.com/theories#gravity
https://dyatlovpass.com/theories#gravity

Auhtorities even wanted to bury the hikers in Ivdel so less people attend the funerals and ask questions. Nobody does this with natural cause of death,,, like so many inconsistencies,,,missing case number, wrong date as 6.II , missing radiogram from 25th February while all other days are present, and 25th is the day pilot Karpushin reported about seeing two bodies NEXT to the tent,,, so no radiogram of that day...Now this new body , that probably is Kolevatov with missing eyes found in February , not in May after decomposition,,etc,etc.

But yeah I also think that sleeping in extreme conditions and waking in the middle of the night half frozen could cause panick and irrational thinking, and could make people leave their shelter because they could freeze in it if not moving. This could be the start of all other events that happened after they left their tent in fear of dying from cold. Maybe the hostile thing/people saw them in the forest because of the fire and then the violence started for some reason . This is why I wanted to explain my thoughts about leaving the tent due to extreme weather conditions, but not their deaths and all after.

There is no known explanation for GRAVITY. It is still a completely unknown quantity. No scientist has ever explained exactly what this so called Gravity is all about. The Russian Scientists are merely guessing with their Gravity Fluctuation Theory. It is beginning to look like the reason that the Dyatlov Group left their Tent also played a part in their demise. So I personally rule out Weather as a factor in driving them out of their Tent.

[Aspen]

The document below includes photos of the 1978 Anaris incident in Sweden.   Included are graphic photos of injuries to hands from digging snow den with bare hands, and frostbite.
http://www.alpine-rescue.org/ikar-cisa/documents/2019/ikar20190101006177.pdf

Another medical paper mentions the Anaris disaster, page 141 & 142:
https://www.socialstyrelsen.se/Lists/Artikelkatalog/Attachments/10940/2002-110-14_200211014.pdf
Apparently they had sleeping bags, but did not use them.  Quoting the above document:
“Equipment that stays in rucksacks because they cannot be opened with frozen hands is worthless.  Mittens must be attached to clothing.” 

I could not find much else on the internet in the English language about this Anaris tragedy.

In the case of the Dyatlov group, their tent was found by the rescuers mostly intact and still partially standing, including a pair of skis standing in the snow next to the tent.  In my opinion that rules out hurricane or avalanche.


It is concerning that some of the comments in the above posts could mislead some people to make dangerous decisions.  Some southern folks come to Canada unaware of how to handle the cold winter, and some end up losing hands or feet to frostbite, or dead.  So, a bit of advice.

First, do not burn holes in your tent when inside, that is very dangerous.  If you can handle a lighter, then you can probably unzip the tent first…

Warm up numb hands by placing them under your jacket directly against the skin of your stomach, until you can move the fingers again.

Second, the author says that the Dyatlov group “wisely” left their tent because of increasing wind.  No, it was not a ‘wise’ decision to walk away from the tent half dressed, it was a deadly and desperate decision.  An extraordinary thing happened to cause them to do that. 

In the case of an increasing storm, if you are already in your tent, best to stay there and put on all of the warm clothes & blankets you have, until the storm has passed.  Keep your hands warm.  Stay dry.

[Aspen]

It might be helpful to insert here a photo of the tent as the rescuers found it... but I can't figure out to do that...  Perhaps the moderators would kindly do that when they have the time.  Thank you.

[sarapuk]

The document below includes photos of the 1978 Anaris incident in Sweden.   Included are graphic photos of injuries to hands from digging snow den with bare hands, and frostbite.
http://www.alpine-rescue.org/ikar-cisa/documents/2019/ikar20190101006177.pdf

Another medical paper mentions the Anaris disaster, page 141 & 142:
https://www.socialstyrelsen.se/Lists/Artikelkatalog/Attachments/10940/2002-110-14_200211014.pdf
Apparently they had sleeping bags, but did not use them.  Quoting the above document:
“Equipment that stays in rucksacks because they cannot be opened with frozen hands is worthless.  Mittens must be attached to clothing.” 

I could not find much else on the internet in the English language about this Anaris tragedy.

In the case of the Dyatlov group, their tent was found by the rescuers mostly intact and still partially standing, including a pair of skis standing in the snow next to the tent.  In my opinion that rules out hurricane or avalanche.


It is concerning that some of the comments in the above posts could mislead some people to make dangerous decisions.  Some southern folks come to Canada unaware of how to handle the cold winter, and some end up losing hands or feet to frostbite, or dead.  So, a bit of advice.

First, do not burn holes in your tent when inside, that is very dangerous.  If you can handle a lighter, then you can probably unzip the tent first…

Warm up numb hands by placing them under your jacket directly against the skin of your stomach, until you can move the fingers again.

Second, the author says that the Dyatlov group “wisely” left their tent because of increasing wind.  No, it was not a ‘wise’ decision to walk away from the tent half dressed, it was a deadly and desperate decision.  An extraordinary thing happened to cause them to do that. 

In the case of an increasing storm, if you are already in your tent, best to stay there and put on all of the warm clothes & blankets you have, until the storm has passed.  Keep your hands warm.  Stay dry.

The Tent enigma reminds of Me of something else that often crops up. What to do when a Boat is sinking. The answer is the same for both. Stay with the Boat as long as possible. Stay with the Tent as long as possible. Yes something happened that drove the Dyatlov Group from the Tent and it wasnt cold weather.

[CalzagheChick]

So I don't have time to put together a nice detailed post, BUT I just wanted to stop in and say that by far, the katabatic wind theory has become my favorite theory. Since I read the articles of the 60 year commemoration trip.

[Marchesk]

I just watched the Youtube video about this:   



It's a good theory, but like all the rest, it doesn't quite explain all the evidence. The biggest detail would be abandoning the tent without proper clothing and other supplies that would have helped them survive in the woods below. The cold wasn't going to kill them immediately, so they had time to dress and grab other stuff from the tent. If they took the time to pack snow onto the tent to try and secure it, then they had time to dress properly. Which you would if you were going to walk a kilometer in the wind for shelter among the trees.

Also, the tent with 9 warm bodies already inside is a lot different circumstance than the Swedish skiers being outside when the cold hit them and having to dig a makeshift shelter in the snow, causing their hands to be too frozen and bloody to unpack the rest of their belongings. We know the Dyatlov group were comfortable enough to take off their outside wear, eat and compose a satirical newspaper before the incident took place. So their hands weren't in the same bad condition if/when the Kabatic wind started hitting the tent.

Another detail left unexplained is the camera around Zolotoryov's body in the ravine. He was a bit better dressed, there was a urine stain found outside the tent, and his photos had bright spots on them. So maybe he was taking pictures of a light source in the sky when the incident occurred. Or he was just messing around with the camera in the tent, but then why would he take it with him if they abandon the tent because of the cold? Again, the cold isn't going to kill them immediately, so they had time to make decisions on what to take and what to leave behind.

[Lupos]

Hello,
I'm new here. I am very interested in the Dyatlov case. I am a physicist and I have been involved in meteorology for 30 years. So I have been designing a work for almost 3 months with the goal of describing the "Katabatic Wind" on the Kholat. I  save the work as a PDF file in my "Magenta Cloud" of German Telekom.  If the link is open, you can save the work. The German company guarantees that the downloads are virus-free.
Unfortunately, the text is only available in German.
The new version will be published here in early 2021.


Kind regards
Guenter Wolf

[WAB]

Hello,
I'm new here. I am very interested in the Dyatlov case. I am a physicist and I have been involved in meteorology for 30 years. So I have been designing a work for almost 3 months with the goal of describing the "Katabatic Wind" on the Kholat. I have saved the work as a PDF file in my "Magenta Cloud" of German Telekom. The link can be found below. If the link is open, you can save the work. The German company guarantees that the downloads are virus-free.
Unfortunately, the text is only available in German. But Google can help:-)

https://www.magentacloud.de/lnk/VcMYlGtI

Kind regards
Guenter Wolf

Dear Guenter !
I am with great interest I have read your message and have fluently seen your article. It is very interesting information. I am much confident that your knowledge and desire study this theme very much will help will come nearer to true.
However, that I very badly know semantics of German and I can use only the technical translator (it much better Google, but “it has no scientific degree”  ) should very carefully and understand attentively that there is written.
Already now I have some critical remarks because I very well know that place. Especially it concerns that I many times was there in the winter.
For example, you have very carefully disassembled influence solar insolation for February, 01st and 02, however at that time there was low and continuous overcast, therefore these factors can influence only in the most insignificant degree.
Example 2. There it is possible wind exposition formation of only to 2 directions: NorthWest or nearly so Western and Northern only. A statistical parity of probability these approximately directions this winds is 8 … 10: 1. Under the available data (data received from participants of search and our statistics) during events there was NorthWest wind (heights 700 … 1000 m н at m.).
If you can read in Russian, I have article (by results of our expeditions) about weather supervision, analysis of the various weather phenomena and estimation of aerodynamics local streams on site: “tent – cedar”.
You will find my e-mail in personal messages, and can send inquiry in case of need.
Unfortunately I cannot promise send my remark under article very quickly, at me it is too much concomitant circumstances which to it can disturb.
   Thank you for your information.
          Kind regards
                        Wladimir,
                 PhD by aeronautics
                  Moscow,Russia

[Teddy]

[itWasTheCIA]

Very interesting thread. Too bad I'm a bit late to the party.

I first would like to say how much respect I have for everyone that made the journey to the Dyatlov Pass. With your dedication, your opinions are much more worth than mine.

I never heard of katabatic winds before, but it turns out that I live (part-time) in a region, where a kadabatic wind is very common, it's called Bura. It is a highly dangerous wind, and it kills many tourists each year, because it's strong and can appear all of a sudden. Children here are warned very early on about it. However, the danger typically is when you're at sea.

In my experience in mountaineering, there is a golden rule. You do never leave the safety of the tent. Even if I think of the most heavy (unrealistic) wind, I cannot imagine that it would drive the whole group out of the tent.

There are many documented cases of very inexperienced people in Antarctica. You leave the tent, you die. Others stayed in the tent for eleven consecutive days (or longer) and survived. Granted, there are no woods you could run to.

I think the katabatic wind theory had the best presentation I've seen in recent years, but I still do not believe in it.

I like the second part, though, this seems quite plausible, with the den crushing the four poor souls. I also talked to doctors and it turns out that it's not always easy to determine what happened pre- and postmortem. While you can figure out if a broken rib happened pre- or postmortem, you cannot exactly tell how much it was further damaged postmortem.

What I liked best about this new theory, is the connection to another, similar case. They did not have a tent though! We should look for other similar cases worldwide. There has had to be similar incidents as this one! Maybe they just didn't got so infamous, because nobody died? After all, the Dyatlov group could all have survived this incident... I wonder, if they would have found all nine around the fire, dying from hypothermia. The mystery about leaving the tent would be the same, but no flickering lights, no missing tongues, no radioactive clothes, no crushed heads or chests. Would this case have become as infamous as it did? I doubt so...

[Teddy]

We are all late, the party started 60 years ago and there were no invites.
As far as I am concerned nobody knows who attended.

[Marchesk]

What I liked best about this new theory, is the connection to another, similar case. They did not have a tent though! We should look for other similar cases worldwide.

That is a big difference. The Swedish skiers were caught out in the open, tried to dig a shelter with their hands, and then their hands were too numb to get their warmer gear out of their packs. This is very different from being inside the tent with your warmer clothing unpacked.

But the theory does use an interesting comparison to another case that would have remained a mystery if not for the one survivor.

[Star man]

One of the problems with this theory is the way that they left the tent.  Even if there had been an extreme weather event there is no good reason why you would not get dressed before heading down the mountain.  The shoes and boots were accessible.  Also why cut your own tent due to extreme weather?

Regards

Star man

[Lupos]

Hello,
I'm new here. I am very interested in the Dyatlov case. I am a physicist and I have been involved in meteorology for 30 years. So I have been designing a work for almost 3 months with the goal of describing the "Katabatic Wind" on the Kholat. I have saved the work as a PDF file in my "Magenta Cloud" of German Telekom. The link can be found below. If the link is open, you can save the work. The German company guarantees that the downloads are virus-free.
Unfortunately, the text is only available in German. But Google can help:-)

https://www.magentacloud.de/lnk/VcMYlGtI

Kind regards
Guenter Wolf

Dear Guenter !
I am with great interest I have read your message and have fluently seen your article. It is very interesting information. I am much confident that your knowledge and desire study this theme very much will help will come nearer to true.
However, that I very badly know semantics of German and I can use only the technical translator (it much better Google, but “it has no scientific degree”  ) should very carefully and understand attentively that there is written.
Already now I have some critical remarks because I very well know that place. Especially it concerns that I many times was there in the winter.
For example, you have very carefully disassembled influence solar insolation for February, 01st and 02, however at that time there was low and continuous overcast, therefore these factors can influence only in the most insignificant degree.
Example 2. There it is possible wind exposition formation of only to 2 directions: NorthWest or nearly so Western and Northern only. A statistical parity of probability these approximately directions this winds is 8 … 10: 1. Under the available data (data received from participants of search and our statistics) during events there was NorthWest wind (heights 700 … 1000 m н at m.).
If you can read in Russian, I have article (by results of our expeditions) about weather supervision, analysis of the various weather phenomena and estimation of aerodynamics local streams on site: “tent – cedar”.
You will find my e-mail in personal messages, and can send inquiry in case of need.
Unfortunately I cannot promise send my remark under article very quickly, at me it is too much concomitant circumstances which to it can disturb.
   Thank you for your information.
          Kind regards
                        Wladimir,
                 PhD by aeronautics
                  Moscow,Russia

Dear Vladimir,

Thank you very much for your mail, which I received at the end of August. You have made a lot of effort and the inaccuracies of my representations explained and completed very precisely. I then tried to include all corrections in a new version of my work. In addition, I have completely revised my work and worked out different details better.
Unfortunately, the text is still written in German. Only when all corrections have been made will I translate the text into English.
I would like to thank you again for your help without which I would have had many mistakes in my work.


With best regards
Guenter Wolf
Master of Physics
Germany

[Jacques-Emile]

As to simply wind I say no. Katabatic wind energy comes from the plunging of cold air into the lighter warm air below. It must descend altitude significantly to pick up kinetic energy. At most tent only 200m. lower in altitude. Katabatic wind seems to need thousands of meter descent.
HOWEVER this publication by Wolf is absolutely written as expert and I am "Tietzel nachher" (meint Wichtigtuer.)  Please go on, help with my question.

[Jacques-Emile]

This link seems to be archaic.  There is some PDF with Dyatlov topic and Borzhenkov author.  Is that the document?

[Lupos]

In a few days I will post a new link here that contains all of Dr. Borzenkov corrections. It contains and explains in detail the theory of "Katabatic Wind" more exactly. Unfortunately again in German. The translation into English is too complex. But the text can be understood with a translation program.

After correcting some errors that friendly and interested users informed me, I create a new version 2021.

[Ferri Brodge]

One of the problems with this theory is the way that they left the tent.  Even if there had been an extreme weather event there is no good reason why you would not get dressed before heading down the mountain.  The shoes and boots were accessible.  Also why cut your own tent due to extreme weather?

Regards

Star man

My POW:

1) Why do they leave a tent?
As written multiple times above - I suppose, they were in a situation of certain death in a tent. I fully believe, they were sure they will die because of cold. What will you do in a situation of a temperature drop, when you wake up with your limbs ice cold, unable to properly speak. Wait for a dawn and pray or try to obtain some fire?

Also - every single improvement may get feel you better. You are going with the wind - you will feel calming warm in your stomach. Lower you are, better you feel. For a short moment, of course, but this may have a really great psychologicall effect that can lead you down the slope and persuade you to carry on. Also - the vision of a saving fire can be really strong.

2) Why they left their boots behind?
Have you ever tried to put up a leather boot when its ice cold? Its impossible. Especially when you are not able to motor your fingers and your foot is barely movable. This is why you have to sleep with your boots in a sleeping bag. As far as I know, there was a strange pile of everyones boots in one corner of a tent. Maybe they were not carefull enough and left their boots near the enterance - and the late night cold made the leather boot iron. This is also how to explain one-shoe person. He was able to put up just one.
And also - I walked several times without boots in the snow, not just short distances. Really soon, you will feel nothing. Lack of shoes is the last thing you will feel, feet will addapt. If they were in a hurry, boots should seem redundant in a moment.

3) Why they left their clothes behind
This is the weakest part. I don't know. Maybe just the thing they were not able to reach clothes from show-covered tent, maybe the suffer from icy wind and cold was so incredible they cant last any longer

4) Why was the ten torn?
According to diaries, there was an argument about sewing a tent. Isn't it possible that strong wind opened once-sewed hole in a tent and they made it worse trying to fix it from the inside? Maybe this once-sewed hole was made from the inside before and now just apprear againt - this is why the forensis analyzed it as an "inner job". Maybe the torn of the tent was made unintentionally during the nigtime or later evacuation and this made them believe there is no need to stay in a tent.

5) 2 persons with better equipement
In diaries, there are notes about 2-men night watches. So I presume people on the nigth watch were full-equipped. Dyatlov tried to keep the discipline (i.e. the rule "nobody sits near the fire before everything is done), the rule of the full-equipped watch seems realistic to me - just as a policy and sleeping prevention. Maybe these two called for help during the gale and other with no equipement tried to save the tent, then evacuate the campsite in a hurry for the reasons I wrote above (nothing to loose).

Something of these things matches my experience. A many years ago, I went hiking with my friends. Both terrain and weather was really comfortable, nevertheless we were in the situation when we felt live-threatened. Second night of our trip was a temperature drop (from -5 to cca -20 outside) and our sleeping bags were not warm enough. And I can assure you, you will be able to sleep in these conditions and wake up in the moment, when you are not able barely move. First thing we were trying to do is go outside of the tent with no shoes and gear and jump, try to warm yourself up. Last thing you want to try in this state of mind is to put up cold shoes and frozen jacket. Just because you will not feel the difference. All you want is to find out you are still able to move and live.

6) What happend then?
They try to escape extreme cold, used flashlights as a beacon. Near the cedar, they split their roles - one part was trying to obtain green brushwood as an insulation, second part was setting up fire, third was digging a den. After the fire was set and they felt more comfortable, they decided to reach back the tent - three of them died en route. Fire-keepers that borrowed some of their clothes to the friends were not able to keep fire lit and froze to death - maybe the den party was not aware of that and when they come back, they tried to warm-up unconsious friends and accidentally burnt them a bit.
The rest was described many times - last survivors were crushed in their shelter by falling iceroof.

What you think?

[Star man]

One of the problems with this theory is the way that they left the tent.  Even if there had been an extreme weather event there is no good reason why you would not get dressed before heading down the mountain.  The shoes and boots were accessible.  Also why cut your own tent due to extreme weather?

Regards

Star man

My POW:

1) Why do they leave a tent?
As written multiple times above - I suppose, they were in a situation of certain death in a tent. I fully believe, they were sure they will die because of cold. What will you do in a situation of a temperature drop, when you wake up with your limbs ice cold, unable to properly speak. Wait for a dawn and pray or try to obtain some fire?

Also - every single improvement may get feel you better. You are going with the wind - you will feel calming warm in your stomach. Lower you are, better you feel. For a short moment, of course, but this may have a really great psychologicall effect that can lead you down the slope and persuade you to carry on. Also - the vision of a saving fire can be really strong.

2) Why they left their boots behind?
Have you ever tried to put up a leather boot when its ice cold? Its impossible. Especially when you are not able to motor your fingers and your foot is barely movable. This is why you have to sleep with your boots in a sleeping bag. As far as I know, there was a strange pile of everyones boots in one corner of a tent. Maybe they were not carefull enough and left their boots near the enterance - and the late night cold made the leather boot iron. This is also how to explain one-shoe person. He was able to put up just one.
And also - I walked several times without boots in the snow, not just short distances. Really soon, you will feel nothing. Lack of shoes is the last thing you will feel, feet will addapt. If they were in a hurry, boots should seem redundant in a moment.

3) Why they left their clothes behind
This is the weakest part. I don't know. Maybe just the thing they were not able to reach clothes from show-covered tent, maybe the suffer from icy wind and cold was so incredible they cant last any longer

4) Why was the ten torn?
According to diaries, there was an argument about sewing a tent. Isn't it possible that strong wind opened once-sewed hole in a tent and they made it worse trying to fix it from the inside? Maybe this once-sewed hole was made from the inside before and now just apprear againt - this is why the forensis analyzed it as an "inner job". Maybe the torn of the tent was made unintentionally during the nigtime or later evacuation and this made them believe there is no need to stay in a tent.

5) 2 persons with better equipement
In diaries, there are notes about 2-men night watches. So I presume people on the nigth watch were full-equipped. Dyatlov tried to keep the discipline (i.e. the rule "nobody sits near the fire before everything is done), the rule of the full-equipped watch seems realistic to me - just as a policy and sleeping prevention. Maybe these two called for help during the gale and other with no equipement tried to save the tent, then evacuate the campsite in a hurry for the reasons I wrote above (nothing to loose).

Something of these things matches my experience. A many years ago, I went hiking with my friends. Both terrain and weather was really comfortable, nevertheless we were in the situation when we felt live-threatened. Second night of our trip was a temperature drop (from -5 to cca -20 outside) and our sleeping bags were not warm enough. And I can assure you, you will be able to sleep in these conditions and wake up in the moment, when you are not able barely move. First thing we were trying to do is go outside of the tent with no shoes and gear and jump, try to warm yourself up. Last thing you want to try in this state of mind is to put up cold shoes and frozen jacket. Just because you will not feel the difference. All you want is to find out you are still able to move and live.

6) What happend then?
They try to escape extreme cold, used flashlights as a beacon. Near the cedar, they split their roles - one part was trying to obtain green brushwood as an insulation, second part was setting up fire, third was digging a den. After the fire was set and they felt more comfortable, they decided to reach back the tent - three of them died en route. Fire-keepers that borrowed some of their clothes to the friends were not able to keep fire lit and froze to death - maybe the den party was not aware of that and when they come back, they tried to warm-up unconsious friends and accidentally burnt them a bit.
The rest was described many times - last survivors were crushed in their shelter by falling iceroof.

What you think?

One key aspect for you to think about:

Rusted managed to put on one boot.  Just one.  If the boots were too cold or his hands inoperable how did he get the first boot on?  If he had time and the ability to put on one boot, why not the other? 

All indications seem to point to them being awake.  Neatly layed blankets.  Food prepared for eating.  The two people on duty - would they not warn the others if there was a sudden extreme weather event? Even if they had been sleeping.

After travelling down the slope in freezing conditions and poorly dressed they were still able to make a fire, cut clothing with a knife.

I don't think it was a weather event that caused them to leave the tent.

Regards

Star man