Thinking out Loud

[Manti]

An incision was performed during the autopsy to determine if subnormal hemorrhage was present.

True, this is the most plausible.. and the person making the autopsy keeps describing their own actions so it's not out of the ordinary here.

[DAXXY]

If that is the case then there is still the small puncture wound and surrounding discoloring and swollen hand.  It's an odd place for a small puncture wound.  I wish the pathologist had taken photos.  But he also had no verbal context from anyone which could have suggested what to look for.

[tekumze]

When asked by a snake expert: What is the chance that a snake will bite us at minus degrees in February? The answer was: None at all.

[Nigel Evans]

When asked by a snake expert: What is the chance that a snake will bite us at minus degrees in February? The answer was: None at all.

Maybe it wasn't minus degrees.... There's several things that point to unusually warm conditions, lack of frostbite, condition of snow on and around the tent, signs of wet snow in photos of footsteps.

[tekumze]

Maybe if the temperature was higher than 10 degrees Celsius. Snakes are animals with erratic body temperature. When ambient temperatures drop, their life processes slow down and they are also cold to the touch. To be able to become active, they warm the body by sunbathing. Unlike amphibians, which have moist and mucous skin, the body of snakes is covered with horny scales without mucous glands, so their skin is smooth and dry to the touch.

[DAXXY]

When I first mentioned this it was just as an example of yet another type of plausible unprovable scenario that suggested a reason why the 2 Yuris might have become stuck at the cedar tree causing the others to leave the tent to search for them.  The suggestion was that one of the 2 Yuris disturbed a hibernation site of snakes while gathering firewood and got bitten. Also that a snake could have been hibernating inside a hollow piece of firewood that one picked up which then emerged and bit his lower inner forearm.  Maybe the snake was hibernating under a log that one of them picked up and one of the Yuris picked up the snake thinking it dead.  The snake warmed up in his hands from his body heat and bit him.  Cold blooded animals do this.   

Then the small oval puncture wound was suggested which could also support this idea.  Snakes shelter and hibernate under piles of logs in forests and in underground dens around tree roots etc.  There is not much difference between someone actually looking for sheltering snakes in the forest under logs and someone collecting firewood.  That's why people get bitten collecting firewood.   

I agree, In that area in February a snake bite wouldn't be high on a list of plausible scenarios because it wasn't warm weather when snakes are normally active and there could have been some sort of accidental encounter,  but all of the ingredients are there for this scenario to be plausible.  Especially if they picked up a hibernating snake which then warmed up.  There is also the puncture wound, and also the known risk of anaphylaxis.

We often say snakes hibernate but it isn't actually true. Snakes do not hibernate, rather they become less active during cold weather. It is called "brumation."  Brumation is an extreme slowing down of their metabolism. Snakes are awake, but just very lethargic so you don't see them moving around.

[sarapuk]

When asked by a snake expert: What is the chance that a snake will bite us at minus degrees in February? The answer was: None at all.

Siberian Vipers hibernate during the winter months. Siberian Bears also hibernate, and if they are disturbed they can turn nasty.

[tekumze]

To wake a snake from a state of brumation we need quite some time and special conditions. It's not that easy.
Since snakes are cold-blooded animals, they will become less active in the cooler months because they will be lethargic from the cold temperatures. During the winter months, snakes and other reptiles will enter brumation. ... Brumation does not require the same amount of sleep as hibernation.
If you were to wake up a brumation animal midwinter It would use up so much energy warming itself up.

[DAXXY]

To wake a snake from a state of brumation we need quite some time and special conditions. It's not that easy.
Since snakes are cold-blooded animals, they will become less active in the cooler months because they will be lethargic from the cold temperatures. During the winter months, snakes and other reptiles will enter brumation. ... Brumation does not require the same amount of sleep as hibernation.
If you were to wake up a brumation animal midwinter It would use up so much energy warming itself up.

Yes but if they picked it up it could warm up from their body heat.  I did this with a bat I found once which had come out of its hibernation place.  It looked dead on the ground but just moved slightly.  I carried it in my hand wrapped in tissue paper to a rescue place.  By the time I got there he was happy and awake and crawling around. 

Maybe he picked up the snake and laid it on his upturned left forearm to look at it, and his body heat warmed it up and it bit him just as a defensive reaction from being disturbed..

‘Hibernating’ snakes are occasionally active to warm themselves. They will also react if you touch or pick them up, wrapping around your hand if they’re a constrictor. The same goes for sleeping snakes, which will look around as if startled when you wake them up. Dead snakes are completely cold and unresponsive.
https://www.snakesforpets.com/is-my-snake-dead-or-hibernating/

[tekumze]

I agree that in some very complex theory this is also possible.

[DAXXY]

maybe not that complex.  I was just considering reasons for the 2 Yuris to become separated from the others while down in the forest.  Firewood seems obvious because of the stove.  They couldn't set it up until everyone was in the tent but the 2 Yuris didn't return with the firewood.  So why wouldn't they ?   There are 2 of them so why didn't even one make it to the tent ?
Maybe one became a casualty somehow and the other didn't want to leave him.  So what kind of situation does that to a fit healthy young man collecting firewood in a forest ?  It has to be something more serious than a broken ankle because he could just leave him and get to the tent and bring help.  So it is something serious, unconsciousness maybe, difficulty breathing ? These are symptoms of anaphylaxis and anaphylactic shock.
How can they come in to contact with a snake ? easy, they are both in the forest and lifting up logs. 
They stayed at the cedar tree with one climbing the tree to attract attention from the tent but couldn't.  They had firewood so lit a fire, one goes to dig a den.  Gets it all ready but hypothermia is setting in now, and before they can get inside the den collapses. Eventually they are found by the others but it's too late.  But like many others it's just another plausible theory.   

[sarapuk]

To wake a snake from a state of brumation we need quite some time and special conditions. It's not that easy.
Since snakes are cold-blooded animals, they will become less active in the cooler months because they will be lethargic from the cold temperatures. During the winter months, snakes and other reptiles will enter brumation. ... Brumation does not require the same amount of sleep as hibernation.
If you were to wake up a brumation animal midwinter It would use up so much energy warming itself up.

I doubt that a snake bite has anything to do with the demise of the Dyatlov group. Its doubtful to see any animal has having been involved, unless we go down the Yeti road.

[DAXXY]

Unfortunately doubt and doubtfulness is what keeps this case alive.  Instead we could be looking at levels of plausibility in the theories.  The theories should be explaining what little real evidence there is.  Why people had certain things on them ? What types of things compelled them ?  What conscious choices they actually made (like leaving the flashlights out to find their way back to the tent).  Like the rolled up newspaper Zolotaryov had.  Dyatlov giving his jacket to someone outside the tent to stand on while he quickly gave out instructions of how to search for the 2 Yuris.   Their choices tell us things.  So much of this whole incident is riddled with contradiction and lack of evidence that the only road left is one that looks for plausible scenarios involving the little evidence there is.  And there is more evidence of katabatic air flow and snakes in Siberia than Yetis or UFO's.     And it would explain why the 2 Yuris did not return to the tent with the firewood and the others had to leave to look for them. 

[sarapuk]

Unfortunately doubt and doubtfulness is what keeps this case alive.  Instead we could be looking at levels of plausibility in the theories.  The theories should be explaining what little real evidence there is.  Why people had certain things on them ? What types of things compelled them ?  What conscious choices they actually made (like leaving the flashlights out to find their way back to the tent).  Like the rolled up newspaper Zolotaryov had.  Dyatlov giving his jacket to someone outside the tent to stand on while he quickly gave out instructions of how to search for the 2 Yuris.   Their choices tell us things.  So much of this whole incident is riddled with contradiction and lack of evidence that the only road left is one that looks for plausible scenarios involving the little evidence there is.  And there is more evidence of katabatic air flow and snakes in Siberia than Yetis or UFO's.     And it would explain why the 2 Yuris did not return to the tent with the firewood and the others had to leave to look for them. 

But there is Evidence of Big Foot type creatures and UFO's. Plenty of sightings and other experiences.

[DAXXY]

I wouldn't count sightings as evidence.  Physical evidence like hair or skeletal remains would be evidence. Something that can be examined scientifically. 

[Ziljoe]

I don't think there's any evidence of yetis or aliens yet. Some intriguing eyewitness accounts though, but bottom of my list to this mystery.

[GKM]

I have never seen or read of any scientific evidence that yeti's exist. Unidentified flying objects do exist until they are quickly identified. Ufo's in relation to alien beings have not been proven to exist, at least not that I am aware of, although I could have missed the news that day.

[sarapuk]

I wouldn't count sightings as evidence.  Physical evidence like hair or skeletal remains would be evidence. Something that can be examined scientifically. 

Well in Law, sightings are Evidence. If a witness sees something, say a suspect, that is a sighting, and that is Evidence.

[sarapuk]

I don't think there's any evidence of yetis or aliens yet. Some intriguing eyewitness accounts though, but bottom of my list to this mystery.

There is Evidence. Sightings are Evidence.

[sarapuk]

I have never seen or read of any scientific evidence that yeti's exist. Unidentified flying objects do exist until they are quickly identified. Ufo's in relation to alien beings have not been proven to exist, at least not that I am aware of, although I could have missed the news that day.

Well thats more like it. Scientific Evidence. Obviously you are meaning physical proof of Yeti's. Well as far as we know there is none. We have Sightings but not Hairs or Scat etc that can be definitly Identified as Yeti. UFO's and Aliens, once again as far as we know there is no physical proof. But we have Sightings and other strange events.

[Manti]

Maybe it wasn't minus degrees.... There's several things that point to unusually warm conditions, lack of frostbite,

They had severe frostbite. The thing is, the way we usually see frostbite is on persons who have warmed up and survived, and their tissues start dying weeks(!) after the fact, and start rotting. When you are just frozen, and quite quickly at that in around -20 degree temperatures, the typical appearance of frostbite doesn't develop until well after you are defrosted, but because they were dead, all parts would start rotting not only the ones with frostbite...

Nevertheless, and I couldn't get myself to look at all the postmortem photos but there are clearly frostbitten ears visible, for example

[DAXXY]

Sightings are not evidence they exist.  They are just evidence that someone thought they saw something that resembled a creature they know from folklore.  Or they saw something they couldn't explain so used the yeti to explain it.  They had a mental reference for it already in their imagination.  Evidence can be fact or opinion.  Someone saying they saw a yeti is just stating their opinion.  In a forest people's imagination can play tricks on them.  There's usually a rational explanation.  A deer moving through undergrowth, a bear, a badger digging around tree roots making the tree mysteriously shake.  A prey animal screaming as it's caught by a predator.  It's like the Loch Ness Monster,  Great for tourism and TV shows.  If they existed we would have found, caught, or killed one by now, especially in Siberia because of all the people living in the forests and the military and oil and gas and mining workers.  Stories of creatures dwelling in the forest were told to children so they didn't stray off the forest paths they knew and went exploring and got lost.   

[Ziljoe]

I don't think there's any evidence of yetis or aliens yet. Some intriguing eyewitness accounts though, but bottom of my list to this mystery.

There is Evidence. Sightings are Evidence.

Thanks sarapuk. I should have said no proof. 

[GKM]

If we think of "Sightings " as "Evidence " then we are required to look at the "Sighting " of the tent by the Yak pilot on February 24th 1959 as "Evidence ". He claims to have "Sighted " the tent being staged with two dead bodies beside it, a man and woman. On the other hand if "Sightings " are not "Evidence " but only a preconceived image of what someone expected to see then we can dismiss all "Sightings " as merely a trick of the mind and is proof of absolutely nothing.

[DAXXY]

We say 'take it with a pinch of salt'.  ie with caution.

[Jay]

Wood was found in the tent, in one corner of it.
At this web site:



"D in the far part of the tent where stored the food - cereals, cans, sugar, and wood for the stove"

Nobody gets used to such plummeting temperatures, they were not superhumans, and if you do adjust, for a time, that will be limited by your liver's ability to keep on producing blood sugars and burning off fats to regulate your core temperature, in the human stove, to normal levels.

With -31C wind chill outside frostbite is risked within 20 to 30 minutes.

Sorry - just thinking out aloud - looking at the tent diagram, where is there space for 9 people to sleep? I am sure that they would want to stay close to each other to stay warm but still - where is the space without encroaching on the other items in the tent?

[Игорь Б.]

The expert incorrectly measured the length of the tent. In fact, the length of the tent was 5 m. 33 cm.
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=56502

[sarapuk]

Sightings are not evidence they exist.  They are just evidence that someone thought they saw something that resembled a creature they know from folklore.  Or they saw something they couldn't explain so used the yeti to explain it.  They had a mental reference for it already in their imagination.  Evidence can be fact or opinion.  Someone saying they saw a yeti is just stating their opinion.  In a forest people's imagination can play tricks on them.  There's usually a rational explanation.  A deer moving through undergrowth, a bear, a badger digging around tree roots making the tree mysteriously shake.  A prey animal screaming as it's caught by a predator.  It's like the Loch Ness Monster,  Great for tourism and TV shows.  If they existed we would have found, caught, or killed one by now, especially in Siberia because of all the people living in the forests and the military and oil and gas and mining workers.  Stories of creatures dwelling in the forest were told to children so they didn't stray off the forest paths they knew and went exploring and got lost.

Nevertheless Sightings are still considered to be Evidence. How one interprets that Evidence is another matter. For instance in many Crimes Evidence is what someone has seen, and that could be someone fleeing the scene of a Crime. A Sighting. Or it could be someone seeing a Car leave the scene of a Crime. A Sighting.

[sarapuk]

If we think of "Sightings " as "Evidence " then we are required to look at the "Sighting " of the tent by the Yak pilot on February 24th 1959 as "Evidence ". He claims to have "Sighted " the tent being staged with two dead bodies beside it, a man and woman. On the other hand if "Sightings " are not "Evidence " but only a preconceived image of what someone expected to see then we can dismiss all "Sightings " as merely a trick of the mind and is proof of absolutely nothing.

Sightings are Evidence. How one interprets Sightings is another matter.