The Autopsies

[sarapuk]

The autopsies have been refered to many times in this Forum. But what exactly should we have expected from such autopsies. There does appear to be a certain vagueness about the autopsies. On the face of it at first they seem fairly detailed but it soon becomes clear that some things appear to be missing or just not explained properly.
''The question whether an injury was sustained during life or not is one of the most important subjects in forensic medicine''. ''Therefore, vital reactions have been a main research topic in forensic medicine for a long period and many renowned forensic pathologists have devoted important papers to this field''. In the former USSR forensic science was well established. Therefore we should have expected more thorough autopsy reports in the Dyatlov Case. Or are those reports not published, and we are given briefer reports. Just one or two points to start with [1] The inspection of the Brains, vague. [2] The reference to the missing tongue, vague.

[Игорь Б.]

9 мая в СССР - Праздник Победы. Все выпивают и закусывают.
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=90046

[marieuk]

I realise I'm speaking from a different country and time, but wouldn't you be expected to do your job properly, even if it was a day of celebrations?  I'm hoping that there are more detailed reports hidden away and one day they'll be revealed. 

[Ziljoe]

Possibly they weren't that concerned on the details. They had already found the first 5 bodies which were basically frozen and that from their perspective had died from leaving the tent , hypothermia etc.The second group of four were found over 2 months later and had decayed.

How good the communication was between the searchers , investigators and doctors , we will never know. The people doing the autopsy might not have been informed that the ravine four were found under several feet of hard snow, or face down in a stream.

We are looking at this mystery with a different narrative to those at the time. The people doing the autopsy weren't looking for murder, aliens, or wolverines. They probably didn't have any connection with the victims and did autopsies as a day job. Perhaps , from their perspective there was no great mystery. Just a group of people that had died in a very remote area after leaving their tent. Why would they look to complicate things? There's a day off coming up and a celebration , death happens in the cold all the time. I would guess they wanted  to finish the sad business and return the bodies to the families.

I know also that laziness happens in UK and genuine mistakes. Friday afternoons, Monday mornings , incompetent etc.

[sarapuk]

Possibly they weren't that concerned on the details. They had already found the first 5 bodies which were basically frozen and that from their perspective had died from leaving the tent , hypothermia etc.The second group of four were found over 2 months later and had decayed.

How good the communication was between the searchers , investigators and doctors , we will never know. The people doing the autopsy might not have been informed that the ravine four were found under several feet of hard snow, or face down in a stream.

We are looking at this mystery with a different narrative to those at the time. The people doing the autopsy weren't looking for murder, aliens, or wolverines. They probably didn't have any connection with the victims and did autopsies as a day job. Perhaps , from their perspective there was no great mystery. Just a group of people that had died in a very remote area after leaving their tent. Why would they look to complicate things? There's a day off coming up and a celebration , death happens in the cold all the time. I would guess they wanted  to finish the sad business and return the bodies to the families.

I know also that laziness happens in UK and genuine mistakes. Friday afternoons, Monday mornings , incompetent etc.

It was a criminal case and the forensics would have been told that and therefore they should have acted accordingly.

[Ziljoe]

Where does it say it was a criminal case?
I don't think it was CSI Miami. Investigation yes.....but we're they looking for murder or just ticking boxes?

[sarapuk]

Where does it say it was a criminal case?
I don't think it was CSI Miami. Investigation yes.....but we're they looking for murder or just ticking boxes?

Look at the Case Files.

[Игорь Б.]

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%D0%BF%D1%8C%D1%8F%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5+%D0%B2%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%87%D0%B8

[marieuk]

Just wanted to say that what I said before was not meant as any criticism at all and simply that I thought they would be unlikely to not do their job properly because a holiday was coming up.  In other words, maybe there's another reason why all the information is not there.

[Ziljoe]

Maybe the KGB had guns pointed to their heads when they were doing the autopsy. Saying "write anything down that tells the true story, we will shoot you!".

I thought it was a public inquest where they investigate and try to establish the deaths of the group which would have lead to a criminal case. It started out as a search and rescue but they found the first 5 bodies quickly. Hypothermia was said to be the cause of the deaths. It was mostly students,friends and teachers in the search party ,which would suggest no one was trying to hide anything.

The 4 in the ravine changed things slightly because they couldn't explain the rib and skull fractures. The media has over sensationalised the missing tongue and eyes and fails to mention,eyebrows , lips,skin were missing and they were in a stream under 3-4 meters of "hard compacted" snow.   

I don't know how much time or effort goes into each autopsy, or what they look for. (I do know of a case where things went wrong for good intentioned reasons.
Bodies couldn't be fitted into the body boxes so someone made the bodies fit , where bones were broken. Stressful for all but a mistake. )

All the autopsy could report was broken ribs and bones. They had no idea how it happened or how to explain it other than saying overwhelming force.

[Игорь Б.]

Самая популярная версия в России, что дятловцев убили сотрудники ЦРУ. США должны признать, что ЦРУ - террористическая организация и выплатить репарации. Доказательств не требуется, все и так ясно.

[Ziljoe]

Igor b, thanks that solves it all, we all knew that anyway! . 

Самая популярная версия в России, что дятловцев убили сотрудники ЦРУ. США должны признать, что ЦРУ - террористическая организация и выплатить репарации. Доказательств не требуется, все и так ясно.

Самая популярная версия в России, что дятловцев убили сотрудники ЦРУ. США должны признать, что ЦРУ - террористическая организация и выплатить репарации. Доказательств не требуется, все и так ясно.

Translated :

The most popular version in Russia is that the Dyatlovites were killed by CIA officers. The US must acknowledge that the CIA is a terrorist organization and pay reparations. No proof is required, everything is clear anyway.

[Игорь Б.]

9 мая в СССР - Праздник Победы. Все выпивают и закусывают.
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=90046

Скетч-шоу из Екатеринбурга "Уральские пельмени" о пьяных врачах в праздник:



К сожалению, перевод субтитров ужасен, но можно насладиться мимикой и интонацией.

[Ziljoe]

I hope that's not all your doctor's ! I could imagine them trying to hurry the job.

[Manti]

Something that never sat right with me is the mention of sending tissue samples for toxicological analysis. First of all the results are not in the case files. But also, most toxins break down over time, so there is very little hope of finding anything 1 month after death (let alone 3 months after).

Other than that, the autopsies look like a fairly thorough job: they determined time of death relative to their last meal, they determined it wasn't rape, and they tried to determine cause of death... this is not easy in case of hypothermia, made even harder by the long delay in finding the bodies. Even today, in many cases an autopsy will simply state that the cause of death couldn't be determined. If anything, maybe that would have been a more honest thing to put as a conclusion, especially in the case of the Ravine 4.

[sarapuk]

Something that never sat right with me is the mention of sending tissue samples for toxicological analysis. First of all the results are not in the case files. But also, most toxins break down over time, so there is very little hope of finding anything 1 month after death (let alone 3 months after).

Other than that, the autopsies look like a fairly thorough job: they determined time of death relative to their last meal, they determined it wasn't rape, and they tried to determine cause of death... this is not easy in case of hypothermia, made even harder by the long delay in finding the bodies. Even today, in many cases an autopsy will simply state that the cause of death couldn't be determined. If anything, maybe that would have been a more honest thing to put as a conclusion, especially in the case of the Ravine 4.

Well the bodies were well preserved because of the freezing conditions, so any tissue samples should have been useful. Also I mention something very important and that is ''Vital Reactions''. Do the Autopsy Reports do justice to the matter of ''Vital Reactions''.

[Ziljoe]

I completely agree with Manti on this one.I think the freezing of the bodies and the length of time before they were recovered is part of the problem. It complicates the data from any vital reactions. For example, freezing of a body has been found to cause skull fractures(Slobodin?) and slowing down the reaction of bruising/blood flow.

The lack of bruising on the ravine 4 would suggest that they died quickly after the injuries received. The decomposition and location of the ravine 4 adds to a host of variables with anything that could be determined by an autopsy. With modern forensic techniques they may have been able to narrow down some of these variables .

The autopsies were maybe not the best by today's standards and I believe the skills of the people that do this work vary considerably to this day but at what point do you stop looking for cause of death and how much resources/money/time did they have ?. If the government was trying to cover something up it would have been easier to frame the local people or do the autopsy in secret and make up something to keep everyone quiet.

They didn't find anything obvious that supports foul play and couldn't determine if some of the injuries were after death.
It would have been easier if they had found stab wounds , bullet holes , mine shrapnel or defence wounds......but they didn't.

[sarapuk]

We dont know if we have the full autopsy reports or just edited versions. And could anything be lost or misconstrued in translation. There is certainly room for variables, and of course thats why we are at such a disadvantage with so many years having past since the event. And it took so long to find those 4 bodies at the ravine. Imagine if the event had happened this year, what a different outcome there would probably be.

[Игорь Б.]

We dont know if we have the full autopsy reports or just edited versions.

После эксгумации Золотарёва знаем - акты вскрытия подлинные. Судмедэксперт Возрожденный не обнаружил у Золотарёва только трещины лопатки, что не удивительно. Он и не мог их обнаружить:

Вот так определяем, сломаны ли ребра — их просто надо отделить друг от друга и немного пошатать.

https://mr-volkov.livejournal.com/113051.html
(Предупреждение - по ссылке фото вскрытия трупа!)

Сколько лопатку не шатай - трещины не обнаружишь.

[Manti]

And it took so long to find those 4 bodies at the ravine. Imagine if the event had happened this year, what a different outcome there would probably be.

The incident of hiker Esther Dingley in the Pyrenees happened last year. It took 7 months to find her. Although the autopsy was conclusive even after such a long time..


Brian Laundrie was found after 5 weeks.

Lisanne Froon and Kris Kremers have never been found.These are just some examples of people who have disappeared in the wilderness.

[Ziljoe]

And it took so long to find those 4 bodies at the ravine. Imagine if the event had happened this year, what a different outcome there would probably be.

The incident of hiker Esther Dingley in the Pyrenees happened last year. It took 7 months to find her. Although the autopsy was conclusive even after such a long time..


Brian Laundrie was found after 5 weeks.

Lisanne Froon and Kris Kremers have never been found.These are just some examples of people who have disappeared in the wilderness.

Lisanne Froon and Kris Kremers is a compelling case. Lots of similarity to the Dyatlov pass, deaths of others after the event, photos/ manipulation, poor investigation and bad media hype for clicks. I believe they recovered parts of the bodies.

I'm cautious of mentioning this case because it's recent and out of respect to families.

[RMK]

And it took so long to find those 4 bodies at the ravine. Imagine if the event had happened this year, what a different outcome there would probably be.

The incident of hiker Esther Dingley in the Pyrenees happened last year. It took 7 months to find her. Although the autopsy was conclusive even after such a long time..


Brian Laundrie was found after 5 weeks.

Lisanne Froon and Kris Kremers have never been found.These are just some examples of people who have disappeared in the wilderness.

Lisanne Froon and Kris Kremers is a compelling case. Lots of similarity to the Dyatlov pass, deaths of others after the event, photos/ manipulation, poor investigation and bad media hype for clicks. I believe they recovered parts of the bodies.

I'm cautious of mentioning this case because it's recent and out of respect to families.

Yeah, they definitely found partial skeletal remains of Froon and Kremers.

[Manti]

And it took so long to find those 4 bodies at the ravine. Imagine if the event had happened this year, what a different outcome there would probably be.

The incident of hiker Esther Dingley in the Pyrenees happened last year. It took 7 months to find her. Although the autopsy was conclusive even after such a long time..


Brian Laundrie was found after 5 weeks.

Lisanne Froon and Kris Kremers have never been found.These are just some examples of people who have disappeared in the wilderness.

Lisanne Froon and Kris Kremers is a compelling case. Lots of similarity to the Dyatlov pass, deaths of others after the event, photos/ manipulation, poor investigation and bad media hype for clicks. I believe they recovered parts of the bodies.

I'm cautious of mentioning this case because it's recent and out of respect to families.

Yeah, they definitely found partial skeletal remains of Froon and Kremers.

Yes. My point was intended to be that even today, even with intense media attention and completely free access to the area of disappearance, it takes a long time sometimes to find those missing. So I think the Ravine 4 being found only after 4 months is not suspicious or doesn't point to anything sinister.

[sarapuk]

And it took so long to find those 4 bodies at the ravine. Imagine if the event had happened this year, what a different outcome there would probably be.

The incident of hiker Esther Dingley in the Pyrenees happened last year. It took 7 months to find her. Although the autopsy was conclusive even after such a long time..


Brian Laundrie was found after 5 weeks.

Lisanne Froon and Kris Kremers have never been found.These are just some examples of people who have disappeared in the wilderness.


Yes hundreds of people go missing each year in strange circumstances. Check out ''David Paulides''  and Missing 411,  if you havnt already done so.

[ElizabethHarris]

Broken teeth and numerous abrasions on the hands and fingers of every hiker found under the tree are defense wounds.

[marieuk]

And it took so long to find those 4 bodies at the ravine. Imagine if the event had happened this year, what a different outcome there would probably be.

The incident of hiker Esther Dingley in the Pyrenees happened last year. It took 7 months to find her. Although the autopsy was conclusive even after such a long time..


Brian Laundrie was found after 5 weeks.


Lisanne Froon and Kris Kremers have never been found.These are just some examples of people who have disappeared in the wilderness.


Yes hundreds of people go missing each year in strange circumstances. Check out ''David Paulides''  and Missing 411,  if you havnt already done so.

Thanks DB.  I saw half of 'The Hunted' one the other day.  Unfortunately, missed the beginning.  I was really interested to hear he has a profile.  I'm trying to remember what was on the list, but can only remember some of them.   I'm sure you know more about this than I do.

- location - seemed to be remote places
- if found they often had shoe(s) and clothes missing
- extreme weather either just before or after disappearance
- missing person was on their own when they disappeared
- often found near bodies of water e.g. streams, rivers, lakes etc
- time of disappearance - usually afternoon/early evening

It made me think how it compares to this case.  What if they had walked down to the woods in the afternoon to do whatever things you do when you're camping.  So no rush or panic involved. One of them wanders off alone and it begins.  They scream and the others hear and go to help.  I still find it hard to believe they pitched the tent on the ridge to be honest, and even more so after seeing Teddy's video.

So back to the broken teeth.  I'm sure I read Igor had a missing incisor.  Who else had broken teeth?

[ElizabethHarris]

I also saw the Hunted, an amazing doc, but isn't that the one where they eventually suggest that Bigfoot is a highly likely candidate for the disappearances?

[marieuk]

I'm not sure I didn't see the whole thing, but it wouldn't surprise me if that was true. 

[sarapuk]

Broken teeth and numerous abrasions on the hands and fingers of every hiker found under the tree are defense wounds.

Yes, there is evidence to suggest that some of the injuries may have been caused by people acting in self defence. But what where those people defending themselves from.

[sarapuk]

I also saw the Hunted, an amazing doc, but isn't that the one where they eventually suggest that Bigfoot is a highly likely candidate for the disappearances?

The Bigfoot mystery is very popular in the USA as some of our American friends know only to well. And according to all the stories that come out of the USA in particular, concerning the Bigfoot creatures, other things are also reported. Orbs of light and UFO's are often reported at the same time as a Bigfoot sighting.