"You saw nothing, you'll say nothing"

[ElizabethHarris]

Anyone else think the odd removal of body parts could have been some sort of symbolism? They removed their eyes, perhaps they had seen something they shouldn't have. They removed Ludmilla's tongue so perhaps it was the killers' way of making sure she didn't speak about what she saw. Who knows. Probably just another coincidence.

[sarapuk]

The injuries are similar to some other human mutilations and cattle mutilations recorded in modern times. No human technology capable of such surgery.

[Perplexe]

Mais oui entièrement d accord

[ElizabethHarris]

Could you translate in english for me?

No human device could fully remove eyeballs, is that what you mean? Hmm...good point. I think the autopsy only said that they were absent, not removed, right? And same was said about the tongue. Maybe it was beyond forensic capabilities of the time, but I wish there was more specificity about those injuries. Today we would know if they were animal bites or sharp force injury or whatever else. We are so bound by 1950s forensics with this case. Wish they could exhume the bodies to reexamine but that's not gonna happen

[Jean Daniel Reuss]

              Reply #1
...................... No human technology capable of such surgery.

              Reply #3
Could you translate in english for me?
No human device could fully remove eyeballs, is that what you mean?........

No human technology capable of such surgery ---> I do not understand this argument at all. Is it black humor  ??

In case of fighting, war or crime, various mutilations of the dead bodies of the opponents are not infrequent.
And even more horrible is the mutilations of immobilized but still living opponents...

To remove the eyes, it is advisable to use a small ordinary spoon, the edges of which have been sharpened with a file or a grinder.

The "operation" is very easy and fast and does not require any particular training.

The cutting of the tongue with a small knife (shorter than a dagger) is also very simple to perform.
But it is obviously wise to prevent the victim's jaws from closing again in the case the victim is not completely dead.
 
In the twentieth century, during the Yugoslavian wars, one could see collections of human eyes in glass jars.

Some US soldiers preferred well-cleaned skulls of Japanese enemies - it is easier to keep them for a long time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_mutilation_of_Japanese_war_dead

Do I need to continue to provide more arguments on this obvious subject ?............

[ElizabethHarris]

Jean Daniel, thank you for clarifying. I thought as much but didn't have enough information to argue the point. Let us not forget also that all the blood in Lyuda's stomach means that she was alive when the tongue was removed. So many ppl disregard this point entirely but for me, is proof positive that these deaths were not natural and in no way accidental.

[Ziljoe]

Jean Daniel, thank you for clarifying. I thought as much but didn't have enough information to argue the point. Let us not forget also that all the blood in Lyuda's stomach means that she was alive when the tongue was removed. So many ppl disregard this point entirely but for me, is proof positive that these deaths were not natural and in no way accidental.

Please explain why she was alive, what "all"the blood In lyudas stomach is ? And where this blood came from. . From what scientific do you base this on.

[Игорь Б.]

Содержимое желудка и тонкого кишечника красного цвета - это кисель:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=90808
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=92227
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=91073
P.S. Как варят кисель:


Отсутствие глаз у трупа в воде - обычное дело:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=61104

Язык и диафрагма рта Дубининой вмёрзли в лавинный снег в ручье и были вырваны при переворачивании и сползании тела с уступа:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=64056

Лавинный снег в ручье образовался после обрушения снежного укрытия. Доказано радиограммой Ортюкова:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=64055

[Ziljoe]

              Reply #1
...................... No human technology capable of such surgery.

              Reply #3
Could you translate in english for me?
No human device could fully remove eyeballs, is that what you mean?........

No human technology capable of such surgery ---> I do not understand this argument at all. Is it black humor  ??

In case of fighting, war or crime, various mutilations of the dead bodies of the opponents are not infrequent.
And even more horrible is the mutilations of immobilized but still living opponents...

To remove the eyes, it is advisable to use a small ordinary spoon, the edges of which have been sharpened with a file or a grinder.

The "operation" is very easy and fast and does not require any particular training.

The cutting of the tongue with a small knife (shorter than a dagger) is also very simple to perform.
But it is obviously wise to prevent the victim's jaws from closing again in the case the victim is not completely dead.
 
In the twentieth century, during the Yugoslavian wars, one could see collections of human eyes in glass jars.

Some US soldiers preferred well-cleaned skulls of Japanese enemies - it is easier to keep them for a long time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_mutilation_of_Japanese_war_dead

Do I need to continue to provide more arguments on this obvious subject ?............

Do I need to continue to provide more arguments on this obvious subject ?............


Yep,,,, you do need provide more arguments on this obvious subject. ....

[ElizabethHarris]

I believe it's right there in the autopsy report but I'll check again. I've read that multiple times btw.

[ElizabethHarris]

Ziljoe, it's on dyatlovincident.com as follows:

Her injuries included: missing tongue and hypoglossal muscle and muscles of the floor of the mouth (2); soft tissue around eyes, eyebrows, and left temporal area missing with the bone partially exposed (1); missing eyes (1); nose cartilage broken and flattened; #2, 3, 4, and 5 ribs broken on the right side with two fracture lines visible (3); #2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 ribs broken on the left side with two fracture lines visible (4); soft tissues of the upper lip missing, revealing teeth and upper jaw; massive hemorrhage in the heart’s right atrium (5); a bruise in the middle of the left thigh (6); damaged tissues around the left temporal bone (7) about 100 g of coagulated blood in her stomach (suggesting that she was alive and her heart was still beating when her tongue and oral muscles were removed).

Official cause of death: hemorrhage into the right atrium of the heart, multiple fractured ribs, and internal bleeding

[Игорь Б.]

(7) about 100 g of coagulated blood in her stomach

Неправда.

В желудке содержалось до 100 см.3 слизистой массы темнокрасноватого цвета.

https://sites.google.com/site/hibinaud/home/akt-issledovania-trupa-dubininoj

[RMK]

Ziljoe, it's on dyatlovincident.com as follows:

Her injuries included: missing tongue and hypoglossal muscle and muscles of the floor of the mouth (2); soft tissue around eyes, eyebrows, and left temporal area missing with the bone partially exposed (1); missing eyes (1); nose cartilage broken and flattened; #2, 3, 4, and 5 ribs broken on the right side with two fracture lines visible (3); #2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 ribs broken on the left side with two fracture lines visible (4); soft tissues of the upper lip missing, revealing teeth and upper jaw; massive hemorrhage in the heart’s right atrium (5); a bruise in the middle of the left thigh (6); damaged tissues around the left temporal bone (7) about 100 g of coagulated blood in her stomach (suggesting that she was alive and her heart was still beating when her tongue and oral muscles were removed).

Official cause of death: hemorrhage into the right atrium of the heart, multiple fractured ribs, and internal bleeding

But, the autopsy report from the case files says "The stomach contains up to 100 cm3 of dark brown mucosal mass."  As Igor B. posted, the original Russian is "В желудке содержалось до 100 см³ слизистой массы темнокрасноватого цвета."  The presence of "красн-" ("krasn-") in that compound word suggests to me that "dark red" is a better translation than "dark brown" (and Yandex Translate agrees).

My point, though, is that, If her stomach contained blood, Vozrozhdenny probably would have said so in the autopsy report.  He explicitly identifies blood as such in several places in the report.

[Ziljoe]

Ziljoe, it's on dyatlovincident.com as follows:

Her injuries included: missing tongue and hypoglossal muscle and muscles of the floor of the mouth (2); soft tissue around eyes, eyebrows, and left temporal area missing with the bone partially exposed (1); missing eyes (1); nose cartilage broken and flattened; #2, 3, 4, and 5 ribs broken on the right side with two fracture lines visible (3); #2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 ribs broken on the left side with two fracture lines visible (4); soft tissues of the upper lip missing, revealing teeth and upper jaw; massive hemorrhage in the heart’s right atrium (5); a bruise in the middle of the left thigh (6); damaged tissues around the left temporal bone (7) about 100 g of coagulated blood in her stomach (suggesting that she was alive and her heart was still beating when her tongue and oral muscles were removed).

Official cause of death: hemorrhage into the right atrium of the heart, multiple fractured ribs, and internal bleeding

But, the autopsy report from the case files says "The stomach contains up to 100 cm3 of dark brown mucosal mass."  As Igor B. posted, the original Russian is "В желудке содержалось до 100 см³ слизистой массы темнокрасноватого цвета."  The presence of "красн-" ("krasn-") in that compound word suggests to me that "dark red" is a better translation than "dark brown" (and Yandex Translate agrees).

My point, though, is that, If her stomach contained blood, Vozrozhdenny probably would have said so in the autopsy report.  He explicitly identifies blood as such in several places in the report.

I'm with RMK and Igor b on this one and it's why I asked about the blood. It's a problem with the Dyatlov case and how speculation and interpretation by various sites sensationalise the facts. I am also guilty of this and jumping to conclusions. It is hard work to look and do one's own research but I think the case files on this website are relatively reliable.


My only concern is my Google searches will make me look like some kind of potential murderer/ nutjob finding out how to dispose of humans and that I'm working for the Russians( for the amount of translations)  .  My algorithms will pinging up on the CIA computer! 

[Игорь Б.]

Судмедэксперт употребляет слово "красноватый". В русском языке - это слегка красный.

[ElizabethHarris]

Whilst I would love to be able to speak and read Russian, some of the comments here won't translate for me (a dumb American who only speaks english  ...) whether the results found were 'red matter', 'brown mucousa', 'brown matter" or "blood" doesn't help us, does it? I'm finding these translation issues to be an enormous roadblock. If the results have been translated into any/all of the above descriptions by different people, how are we to know what was actually found? Autopsy report included. If it can be interpreted in many different ways, how can it be interpreted at all?   With evidentiary questions in criminal trials in US, often if there is conflicting evidence that cannot be reconciled one way or the other because of too many opposing opinions, it is often just tossed up as inconclusive evidence that juries don't take into consideration when deliberating. In this case, all the differing interpretations make it impossible to know what is factual evidence and what are semantic differences in supposed conclusions. As a proponent of the murder theory, I take the findings to be blood. To one with the theory that the wound was postmortem, it could be interpreted as 'brown matter'....my point is, we tend to pick the translation that works best for our own theory and I'm trying not to do that. For the sake of Lyuda and her family, I hope I am wrong and the wound was in fact post mortem but I just don't believe so.

Ziljoe, I agree that all my searches for torture tactics and dismemberment photos might end up getting me on the FBI's person of interest list. 

[RMK]

Whilst I would love to be able to speak and read Russian, some of the comments here won't translate for me (a dumb American who only speaks english  ...)

I can read Russian Cyrillic, but I do not speak Russian, and I only know a few words and phrases from its lexicon.  I rely on translation machines to get by.  Give Yandex Translate a try if you haven't already (Yandex is a technology company based in the Russian Federation).

whether the results found were 'red matter', 'brown mucousa', 'brown matter" or "blood" doesn't help us, does it? I'm finding these translation issues to be an enormous roadblock. If the results have been translated into any/all of the above descriptions by different people, how are we to know what was actually found?

As far as color is concerned...  Yandex renders "В желудке содержалось до 100 см³ слизистой массы темнокрасноватого цвета" as "The stomach contained up to 100 cm3 of a dark reddish mucous mass".  As Igor B. stated in his most recent comment, the Russian word for the color means "slightly red", hence, it translates to "reddish" in English.  I believe "dark brown" has to be an error by the human translator.

ElizabethHarris, what do you make of the fact that Igor B.--a native speaker of Russian--suggests that the reddish color of Dubinina's stomach contents comes from eating/drinking kissel as part of her last meal?

As for the actual substance...  Whoever wrote that Dubinina had blood in her stomach was making an unfounded inference from the primary-source documents.  Mucosa is not blood, and Vozrozhdenny, a physician and forensic examiner, would not confuse the two.

[sarapuk]

Could you translate in english for me?

No human device could fully remove eyeballs, is that what you mean? Hmm...good point. I think the autopsy only said that they were absent, not removed, right? And same was said about the tongue. Maybe it was beyond forensic capabilities of the time, but I wish there was more specificity about those injuries. Today we would know if they were animal bites or sharp force injury or whatever else. We are so bound by 1950s forensics with this case. Wish they could exhume the bodies to reexamine but that's not gonna happen

If you trawl the internet you will find examples of human mutilation. I have seen at least one excellent example that looks exactly like the facial injuries to Dubinina. Also you will note similarities with cattle mutilations.

[ElizabethHarris]

RMK, I think Dr V. (can't spell his name for my life) would have recognized a food substance in the stomach contents too. If 'kissel' is a common Russian item, I think the ME would suggest that?? Not sure. Anything is possible but then we'd have to know what the hiker's ate, if they had access to that food item etc. and then we're really going down the rabbit hole trying to determine their diet in the days before the deaths. But I also think Dr. V left out a lot of things in the report or was very vague about some findings. Maybe intentionally.

[Ziljoe]

RMK, I think Dr V. (can't spell his name for my life) would have recognized a food substance in the stomach contents too. If 'kissel' is a common Russian item, I think the ME would suggest that?? Not sure. Anything is possible but then we'd have to know what the hiker's ate, if they had access to that food item etc. and then we're really going down the rabbit hole trying to determine their diet in the days before the deaths. But I also think Dr. V left out a lot of things in the report or was very vague about some findings. Maybe intentionally.

He recognised it wasn't blood is the point.

[RMK]

RMK, I think Dr V. (can't spell his name for my life) would have recognized a food substance in the stomach contents too. If 'kissel' is a common Russian item, I think the ME would suggest that?? Not sure. Anything is possible but then we'd have to know what the hiker's ate, if they had access to that food item etc. and then we're really going down the rabbit hole trying to determine their diet in the days before the deaths. But I also think Dr. V left out a lot of things in the report or was very vague about some findings. Maybe intentionally.

He recognised it wasn't blood is the point.

Yes, that's what I was trying to convey: Vozrozhdenny recognized that what was in Dubinina's stomach was mucosa, not blood.  However, ElizabethHarris has a fair point here: if Dubinina's stomach contents were reddish because she had eaten/drunk kissel, and if Vozrozhdenny could discern that was so, wouldn't he mention that in the autopsy report?  Of course, that second "if" is kind of a big "if"...

[ElizabethHarris]

One last point about this...wasn't the same substance found in Igor's stomach according to Vozrozdhenny? 

[Игорь Б.]

if Dubinina's stomach contents were reddish because she had eaten/drunk kissel, and if Vozrozhdenny could discern that was so, wouldn't he mention that in the autopsy report?

Ответ на этот вопрос может дать только судебный химик. А результатов химической экспертизы в деле нет.
Задача Vozrozdhenny была лишь правильно изъять, упаковать и отправить внутренние органы на химическое исследование, что и было сделано.

Изъятие и направление трупного материала на лабораторные исследования:
https://sudact.ru/law/prikaz-minzdrava-rf-ot-10121996-n-407/11/

P.S. Красноватое содержимое было не только в желудке, но и в тонком кишечнике некоторых дятловцев:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=91073