Possible sexual assault?

[ElizabethHarris]

I've always wondered if this was also a sexual attack upon one or both women. I know the autopsy disputes this for Zina but I don't entirely trust those autopsy results. Seems like the kind of thing authorities might want to omit back then. Just as they "omitted" the fact that a serial rapist/murderer had killed 100 plus people before the citizens even knew about it. Soviets were good about withholding information from their own people. But we'll never know.

[Manti]

If it was sexual assault, what do you think is more likely? Someone from the group having committed it or an outsider?

[ElizabethHarris]

An outsider, no question. Def NOT any of the 9.

[ElizabethHarris]

Upon looking into this further, there is NO evidence of sexual assault on either woman. This idea is therefore debunked.

[Manti]

Yes, the autopsies state that both Lyuda and Zina were virgins. When I read it, I had some doubts about this (due to their age), but the 1950s were different times...

By the way, the pathologist even checked for signs of rape on the men. Again, the case files are highly recommended reading.. on this topic Zolotaryov's autopsy is probably the one containing some surprising information for me... anyway, nothing much significant.

[ElizabethHarris]

You're right, I think it would be unusual for the 50s if they were unmarried and not virgins. Whatever happened here, at the very least thank god they didn't have to go through that...

[Jean Daniel Reuss]

              Reply #3
Upon looking into this further, there is NO evidence of sexual assault on either woman. This idea is therefore debunked.

Hold on, not so fast.  I believe, on the contrary, that we can find subtle but important clues in the topic=433.0
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.0
    Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death

By the way, it is not a strange premonition but merely a feminine intuition and sensivity.

The complete change in Dubinina's behavior and personality after January 25 is a fact of psychological nature, both proven and extraordinary, which is essential.

In order to understand the DPI, you must give it your full attention and not overlook it.

I modify a little and select some passage from BottledBrunette's  post to make you understand me.

August 26, 2019, 08:36:05 AM   Reply #16
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.msg6905#msg6905

[Very young, sensitive and inexperienced girls] who are sexually assaulted, ... by attempted rape or just being fondled, or harassed, their personalities change.....She said [during the group's sojourn in Vizhay, on January 25 and 26] something what was construed as being above her place or snotty, what have you, to one of the men, and he tried to rape her, or manhandle her a bit, but, either she fought him off or it was interrupted somehow. Sometimes or often  vulnerable young ladies may undergo profound psychological changes in their personalities.  Anger, lethargy, depression, self blaming, etc. That was why she wrote she was so angry as heck and she felt horrible, the place was horrible. 

She thought she would get over it, but, didn't, and that's why she was so 'hostile' and not wanting to participate, help with the chores, hiding out from the rest of the group, stopping any kind of writing in her personal diaries.

Dubinina was psychologically disturbed, but the other 8 guys who were preoccupied with other things did not notice anything.

As concerns Kolgomorova, she probably sensed the hostile atmosphere of Vizhay,  but the entry in her diary is particularly difficult to interpret...

"I talked a lot about things which are completely unfamiliar to me and I scarcely do, but I tried, sincerely. But this is all nonsense.".

[marieuk]

You make some very good points.  I really think something was going on with Lyuda, because she was behaving out of  character.  Maybe she felt let down by the rest of the group in some way also.  The next sentence in Zena's diary is interesting "But again the words of Volt come to mind. How well did he say it".  There was a writer called Volt - is that who she's referring to?  Anyone any idea?

[ElizabethHarris]

In a mystery such as this, with so many questions abounding, of course we are going to come up with certain speculative scenarios or explanations but sticking to factual evidence (as hard as it is here) is our best course. Could one of the girls have been fondled at Vizhay, anything is possible, but my point was that perhaps whoever killed them had an original sexual motive because there were 2 women with the group. When the ME checked for signs of sexual assault, he found none and even went so far as to conclude that neither woman was or had been sexually active. Ever. So that's why I debunked my original idea that this was somehow a sexual crime. A lot has been made about Lyuda's sudden strange behavior that was out of character for her and how this ties into the deaths but I think it's much more plausible that this was a young girl who was probably very, very tired as they all were and after spending as much time together with the group as she did, in very close quarters no less, plus the normal mental/physical exhaustion that accompanies such an undertaking, her behavior makes perfect sense to me. I know that if I went hiking in abysmal conditions for weeks with 8 of my friends, I would have moments of aggravation/bitchiness/ and needing my own space. When I look at this story, I try to put the facts into the most explainable terms as possible. Ludya being exhausted and probably, at least temporarily, sick of her companions likely made for her behavior change. And that too, is speculation, but it just makes sense to me, putting myself in her shoes.

[Ziljoe]

In a mystery such as this, with so many questions abounding, of course we are going to come up with certain speculative scenarios or explanations but sticking to factual evidence (as hard as it is here) is our best course. Could one of the girls have been fondled at Vizhay, anything is possible, but my point was that perhaps whoever killed them had an original sexual motive because there were 2 women with the group. When the ME checked for signs of sexual assault, he found none and even went so far as to conclude that neither woman was or had been sexually active. Ever. So that's why I debunked my original idea that this was somehow a sexual crime. A lot has been made about Lyuda's sudden strange behavior that was out of character for her and how this ties into the deaths but I think it's much more plausible that this was a young girl who was probably very, very tired as they all were and after spending as much time together with the group as she did, in very close quarters no less, plus the normal mental/physical exhaustion that accompanies such an undertaking, her behavior makes perfect sense to me. I know that if I went hiking in abysmal conditions for weeks with 8 of my friends, I would have moments of aggravation/bitchiness/ and needing my own space. When I look at this story, I try to put the facts into the most explainable terms as possible. Ludya being exhausted and probably, at least temporarily, sick of her companions likely made for her behavior change. And that too, is speculation, but it just makes sense to me, putting myself in her shoes.

You have a serious point here . If I was stuck in a tent with you, I might kick off!! 

[ElizabethHarris]

Oh I agree. I think the two of us would be spraying each other with wolverine juice until one of us passed out.  (said with love...lol)

[Jean Daniel Reuss]

              Reply #8
................................
 I think it's much more plausible that this was a young girl who was probably very, very tired as they all were and after spending as much time together with the group as she did, in very close quarters no less, plus the normal mental/physical exhaustion that accompanies such an undertaking, her behavior makes perfect sense to me. I know that if I went hiking in abysmal conditions for weeks with 8 of my friends, I would have moments of aggravation/bitchiness/ and needing my own space. When I look at this story, I try to put the facts into the most explainable terms as possible. Ludya being exhausted and probably, at least temporarily, sick of her companions likely made for her behavior change. And that too, is speculation, but it just makes sense to me, putting myself in her shoes.

I agree with you, ElizabethHarris , that the hikers were murdered.

But I totally disagree with what you wrote in Reply #8: you are going down a wrong path.
I don't have the same view as you on what the mentality and enthusiasm of young Soviet sportsmen during the Krushchev Thaw period (1953-1964) might have been.

Dyatlov had wisely selected the participants of his group (except Zolotaryov who was imposed).
The 2 girls and 7 boys were well prepared physically, morally and mentally.
They had all passed at least some winter category II and had proven themselves on previous tours
https://dyatlovpass.com/dyatlov-group-members-treks

The ski stages from 28 January to 1 February were short, the nights of rest were long (since at the end of January at 61 degrees north latitude the days are short).

  None of the hikers were unusually tired. The hike went normally even if the soft snow slowed down the progression (but category III is mainly a test of resistance and adaptation to the climatic conditions, not of speed).
The hikers could even reserve some of the available time for chatting and taking humorous photos.

(Yuri Yudin, slightly bothered by sciatic pain, voluntarily gave up this ride so as not to risk slowing down the others.
I say "slightly" because apparently he had no difficulty in returning to Vizhay alone).

So in my opinion Dubinina was not physically exhausted, her torment was of a different nature. This is what BottledBrunette found out thanks to her feminine intuition.

[It just makes sense to me, putting myself in her shoes.  --->

I rather think that you fail to put yourself in Dubinina's shoes, simply because :

You did not live in the USSR between 1938 and 1959.
You did not spend your early years in Arkhangelsk: 60° 33' north latitude
You did not receive a rifle bullet in the leg far from an aid station.
You have not participated in 6 hikes organised by the UPI Route Commission, 4 of which were Category II.
You do not understand that to obtain category III was to be part of a kind of moral elite which demonstrates that thanks to its mental strength and its will it (this elite) is able to overcome without weakness material difficulties and physical sufferings.
   etc...etc.

              Reply #9
You have a serious point here . If I was stuck in a tent with you, I might kick off!! 

You have a serious point here ---> So you seem to agree with ElizabethHarris (reply #8)

If I was stuck in a tent with you, I might kick off!! ---> Your wording is really too concise for me.
As I use automatic translators, even with "DeepL.com/en/translator"  which brings nuances and variants in the translations, I do not understand what you want to express here.

[ElizabethHarris]

Very true, as an American who is not a professional hiker I do not understand either culture or experience. I was just looking at it from the point of a young girl, hiker or not. In Teddy's book, she stated that the hikers were typical young people, singing, having fun and 'looking for love.' It seems more likely to me that her reasons for being sulky were less ominous and more of a normal emotional reaction for a young woman, who knows for what reason, but of course I speculate as we all must. But thank you so much for your insight! Russian culture fascinates me and I want to learn as much as I can.

Oh and Ziljoe does not agree with me on the post. He's trying to insult me so you aren't missing anything of value with his remark.

I look forward to reading more of your posts!

[Ziljoe]

Very true, as an American who is not a professional hiker I do not understand either culture or experience. I was just looking at it from the point of a young girl, hiker or not. In Teddy's book, she stated that the hikers were typical young people, singing, having fun and 'looking for love.' It seems more likely to me that her reasons for being sulky were less ominous and more of a normal emotional reaction for a young woman, who knows for what reason, but of course I speculate as we all must. But thank you so much for your insight! Russian culture fascinates me and I want to learn as much as I can.

Oh and Ziljoe does not agree with me on the post. He's trying to insult me so you aren't missing anything of value with his remark.

I look forward to reading more of your posts!

I don't think it's anything to do with sexual assault. It has been discussed previously. No intention to insult you .

[Jean Daniel Reuss]

                     Reply #8
..................................................
 When the ME checked for signs of sexual assault, he found none and even went so far as to conclude that neither woman was or had been sexually active. Ever. So that's why I debunked my original idea that this was somehow a sexual crime.
.....................................................

                     Reply #13
....................................................................
I don't think it's anything to do with sexual assault....

I realise that I had already written explanatory hypotheses for the surprising change in Dubinina's behaviour which excluded elements of a sexual nature.

On the contrary, I had emphasised Dubinina's righteous rage and healthy anger at the humiliation inflicted on Dyatlov's group in the so-called hotel in Vizhay on 25 and 26 January.

Jean Daniel Reuss  :
Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death ---> Reply #17
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.msg10160#msg10160

Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death ---> Reply #46
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.msg16299#msg16299

Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death ---> Reply #51
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.msg17918#msg17918

So Ziljoe and ElizabethHarris you are entirely right,

 I abandon the false lead cautiously suggested by :
     BottledBrunette  : Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death ---> Reply #16
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.msg6905#msg6905
Note :
    BottledBrunette's Reply #16 could be interpreted as :

« Sensitive young girls who are just being fondled, or harassed, then undergo a profound psychological changes in their personality: Anger, lethargy, depression, self blaming, etc... »

[Ziljoe]

                     Reply #8
..................................................
 When the ME checked for signs of sexual assault, he found none and even went so far as to conclude that neither woman was or had been sexually active. Ever. So that's why I debunked my original idea that this was somehow a sexual crime.
.....................................................

                     Reply #13
....................................................................
I don't think it's anything to do with sexual assault....

I realise that I had already written explanatory hypotheses for the surprising change in Dubinina's behaviour which excluded elements of a sexual nature.

On the contrary, I had emphasised Dubinina's righteous rage and healthy anger at the humiliation inflicted on Dyatlov's group in the so-called hotel in Vizhay on 25 and 26 January.

Jean Daniel Reuss  :
Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death ---> Reply #17
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.msg10160#msg10160

Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death ---> Reply #46
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.msg16299#msg16299

Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death ---> Reply #51
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.msg17918#msg17918

So Ziljoe and ElizabethHarris you are entirely right,

 I abandon the false lead cautiously suggested by :
     BottledBrunette  : Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death ---> Reply #16
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.msg6905#msg6905
Note :
    BottledBrunette's Reply #16 could be interpreted as :

« Sensitive young girls who are just being fondled, or harassed, then undergo a profound psychological changes in their personality: Anger, lethargy, depression, self blaming, etc... »

Hi Jean Daniel Reuss ,

Thank you for being flexible in your opinions and thoughts.

 Z

[anna_pycckux]

Большая вероятность, что Люда была изнасилована: чужое нижнее белье, гематома бедра, рваное в промежности и в обл резинки трико, багрового цвета слизистая, которая при наличии девственности не могла быть видна.

[Почемучка]

I've always wondered if this was also a sexual attack upon one or both women.

Возрожденный Б.А. тоже задавался этим вопросом. Причем профессионально и имея на столе трупы для вскрытия.
Девушки были целомудренны. Это он отразил в Актах СМИ. Не стану спорить, что это - не доказательство.
На те годы в СССР были известны и другие способы сексуального насилия. Гулагом были отшлифованы все виды половых вариаций удовлетворения. Впрочем, все они были известны - еще древним египтянам.
Поскольку в древней гробнице почему-то обнаруживается мужская мумия, которую пытались изначально похоронить как женщину, да потом видимо рассмотрели анатомические несоответствия
http://www.plam.ru/hist/tainy_arheologii_radost_i_prokljatie_velikih_otkrytii/p12.php

Очень многие обращают внимание на повреждения одежды девушек. Особенно той, что ниже пояса.
Отчего пропускаются мимо глаз - упоминания заплаток на одежде? Разве в лыжном походе мало причин порвать одежду и не успеть починить? На Людмиле - трусы мужского кроя. Но это не значит что это не её личные трусы. Женщины в СССР сами шили себе белье по книгам, которые назывались "Домоводство". Застежка у таких предметов белья была на пуговицах. Судебно-медицинский эксперт при описании одежды на Зине и Люде - делает акцент, что  Людмила часто выбирает как бы мужские модели, то есть унисекс.
У неё и куртка застегивается на мужскую сторону. И трико порвано - потому что мужская модель рассчитана на мужскую фигуру. Анатомически на мужскую фигуру. Каждая мужская вещь сядет на женщине так, что порваться - раз, два и готово.
Людмила любила одежду носить по фигуре. Подчеркивая свою изящность.
Вообще тема одежды в СССР периода 1959 года - это не для выискивания в ней улик. Не надо искать подвохи где есть только наши русские возможности и выходы из положения
https://bigpicture.ru/interesnye-foto-modelej-kristian-dior-v-moskve-1959-goda/


Resurrected B.A. also wondered this surprise. Has a natural and natural shape on the surface of the body for dissection.
The girls were chaste. He reflects this in the Media Acts. I will not argue that this is not evidence.
In those years, other facts of sexual violence were discovered in the USSR. The Gulag polished all kinds of sexual variations. However, all of them were discovered by the ancient Egyptians.
for some reason they turn to the revealed tomb, they find a male mummy, they discover the discovery of a burial as a woman, and then they find signs of anatomical inconsistencies

A lot of people pay attention to the damage to girls' clothes. Especially the one below the waist.
Why are the mentions of patches on clothes overlooked? Isn't there enough reason to tear your clothes and not have time to fix them on a ski trip? Lyudmila is wearing underpants of a male cut. But this does not mean that these are not her personal underpants. Women in the USSR sewed their own linen according to books called "Housekeeping". The fastener for such items of underwear was on buttons. When describing clothes for Zina and Lyuda, the forensic expert emphasizes that Lyudmila often chooses, as it were, male models, that is, unisex.
She also has a jacket buttoned on the male side. And the leotard is torn - because the male model is designed for a male figure. Anatomically on the male figure. Each man's thing will sit on a woman so that it breaks - one, two, and you're done.
Lyudmila loved to wear clothes according to her figure. Emphasizing your elegance.
In general, the topic of clothing in the USSR during the period of 1959 is not for looking for evidence in it. No need to look for dirty tricks where there are only our Russian opportunities and ways out