October 28, 2020, 01:24:12 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Infrasound? Most unlikely.  (Read 18030 times)

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December 28, 2019, 01:23:07 PM
Reply #90
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
My answer written was gone 2 days ago. I should repeat it


For one, the jiu jitsu elbow strikes would be expected to cause precisely such injuries as found on the rib cages of the two who suffered this kind of injury.

Do not tell obvious nonsense. If you have clung to these conjectures that it unequivocally shows that you do not understand the mechanic. Do not understand at all.
Count please (if you it allows you scientific level) localisation of pressure from «an elbow joint», points of the greatest pressure in edges, and with what speed should strike «an elbow joint». At all without considering possible reaction striking about a substrate and clothes reaction.
Still nobody could cancel Newton's third law.
And if you not in a condition such to make, and it is not necessary to tell the first got to a head (excuse for this word) "thought". It has not something in common with the validity.
Demolition of edges simultaneously from two parties and in those places where they are described by the expert, could be only at reaction with a platform of the big size. Большей than the area of a thorax. If you and it do not understand, in general it is better not to tell anything on this theme.
This direct consequence from mechanics of crises how them describe. If you do not understand it, it is rather a pity that you say wrong words of that you do not have not enough scientific preparation and you tell obvious nonsense.

[....]

Prove you assumption!
That says what it was murder? You can list on points signs and the facts from documents?
Or you consider, what everything about what you do not know are can always be only murder?
You can result nothing in this respect, except conjectures and is weaved any. It is because you do not have real and actual material, and all of you replace only with the imaginations.
But not it is the most important thing. The most important thing is that you cannot result and really prove the reason for this purpose that them have killed. And without this reason all conversations on "murder" mean nothing. It simply words for which is no point.

[....]

Your persuasive attempt by all ways to translate attention from usual accident on murder involuntarily reduces all to conspirology. You do not accept any arguments and calculations in a unique science which can yield result - to the biomechanic, instead of it constantly repeating the same mantra: it was murder! Without resulting any arguments in a substantiation. About that there is no reason and possibility it to make on that place, you start to say that the district here is not necessary. Tell, please, and if it was on the North Pole, it too would be insignificant?


First: Why all this intense aggression?

Then: Newton's third law only says that for every physical action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Sorry, but I have to tell bluntly that there is nothing in Newton's law that contradicts the obvious fact that the injuries found on the nine bodies are all completely consistent with human attack by force. Please refrain from invective, because foul language and accusations of conspiracy thinking only shows that the originator of such language has a rather weak case.

It is true that for every physical action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. These reactions create impacts that lead to injury and death, when force strikes human bodies as was demonstrably the case in the Dyatlov pass tragedy. I must repeat that there is no difficulty for a human trained in close combat to crush rib cages by elbow strikes. The great force of which a trained killer is capable of generating, is more than enough to cause the injuries of Dubinina and Zolotaryov.

Also, let us point out a major error in reasoning:

"But not it is the most important thing. The most important thing is that you cannot result and really prove the reason for this purpose that them have killed. And without this reason all conversations on "murder" mean nothing. It simply words for which is no point."

Comment to the above:

Written into more fluent English, the above sentence states that "the most important thing is that you cannot really prove the reason for why they were killed." - Unfortunately, that is a truly fundamentally erroneous approach.

The question is this: When one, two, nine or more bodies are found, what should then be done?

Should we first ask: "Is there a clear motive for anyone to have caused these deaths?" and then dismiss the possibility of murder unless there is an obvious motive which is found immediately?

Or, should we rather ask: "What was the cause of these deaths, and how can we ascertain the cause of death?"

Of course, the latter approach is the only sensible and scientifically acceptable one. We must first and foremost find out the cause of death, in order to then investigate further into the matter.

Lastly, the infrasound theory is just a little bit less speculative than the aliens theory. After all, infrasound does exist. But there is no experimental of empirical evidence that infrasound can compel nine intelligent and healthy human beings to lose their senses completely in the same way and simultaneously. We can safely put the infrasound theory to rest.

Have you ever been involved in any Court Case in a Court Of Law  ?  All the evidence is presented and the outline of the known events and then you get cracking on trying to solve the Case.
DB

February 11, 2020, 09:04:32 AM
Reply #91
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Per Inge Oestmoen


Have you ever been involved in any Court Case in a Court Of Law  ?  All the evidence is presented and the outline of the known events and then you get cracking on trying to solve the Case.


Yes, I have been present in two long court cases. But these cases were not about homicide.

We are however not close to a court case here. Before a trial, evidence has to be produced.

I assure you, the first thing that has to be done of a corpse (or several) are found is to ascertain the cause of death. That is how investigation starts, in order to find evidence.

Investigators do not ask whether there is an obvious motive for murder, and then conclude that the death(s) are natural unless there is an obvioius motive.

They start with a thorough examination of the dead person(s), with the purpose of finding the exact cause of death.

In this case, that was not done. On the contrary, there were orders from Moscow that the investigation must conclude that the Dyatlov group perished from an accident. But that was not the case. 

February 13, 2020, 11:37:32 AM
Reply #92
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Have you ever been involved in any Court Case in a Court Of Law  ?  All the evidence is presented and the outline of the known events and then you get cracking on trying to solve the Case.


Yes, I have been present in two long court cases. But these cases were not about homicide.

We are however not close to a court case here. Before a trial, evidence has to be produced.

I assure you, the first thing that has to be done of a corpse (or several) are found is to ascertain the cause of death. That is how investigation starts, in order to find evidence.

Investigators do not ask whether there is an obvious motive for murder, and then conclude that the death(s) are natural unless there is an obvioius motive.

They start with a thorough examination of the dead person(s), with the purpose of finding the exact cause of death.

In this case, that was not done. On the contrary, there were orders from Moscow that the investigation must conclude that the Dyatlov group perished from an accident. But that was not the case.

I dont know which Country you were in Court. In England it matters not what the offence is. A Jury will go about it the same way, ie, they will be presented with the outline of the case, and depending on the facts it could be a very detailed outline. Eventually as the Trial proceeds evidence will be presented in Court.
DB

October 11, 2020, 02:16:20 AM
Reply #93
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Per Inge Oestmoen



I dont know which Country you were in Court. In England it matters not what the offence is. A Jury will go about it the same way, ie, they will be presented with the outline of the case, and depending on the facts it could be a very detailed outline. Eventually as the Trial proceeds evidence will be presented in Court.


In this case, all of the available evidence was not considered, and the case was shut down with an officially dictated conclusion. Which unequivocally tells us that the official conclusion - then and now - is state-mandated and wrong.

October 13, 2020, 02:40:20 PM
Reply #94
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient

I dont know which Country you were in Court. In England it matters not what the offence is. A Jury will go about it the same way, ie, they will be presented with the outline of the case, and depending on the facts it could be a very detailed outline. Eventually as the Trial proceeds evidence will be presented in Court.


In this case, all of the available evidence was not considered, and the case was shut down with an officially dictated conclusion. Which unequivocally tells us that the official conclusion - then and now - is state-mandated and wrong.

Well there does appear to be missing evidence and the way that the search was conducted leaves a lot to be desired. Along with the Autopsies that appear to fall short of thorough. Imagine being in a Court of Law and having to decide what happened given this inadequate case material. Impossible I would say.
DB

October 18, 2020, 03:05:21 PM
Reply #95
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Jean Daniel Reuss



   Reply #94
..............................
Well there does appear to be missing evidence and the way that the search was conducted leaves a lot to be desired. Along with the Autopsies that appear to fall short of thorough. Imagine being in a Court of Law and having to decide what happened given this inadequate case material. Impossible I would say.

 • Researches for the reconstitution of the DPI are now clearly historical researches that should not be constrained by any legal considerations.

 • Indeed, scientific and historical research calls upon all the resources of human reason which are often incompatible with particular and sometimes even tendentious legislation.

 • If you want to find one or more plausible explanations to the DPI, you should not imagine yourself in a court of law, nor should you be concerned about the legality of the evidence or clues.

           Reply #88
.................
It is not credible that the traumas and deaths were due to natural causes. We should consider all the injuries as described in the autopsy reports available on this site.
............
As for the infrasound theory: The infrasound theory is just a hair less fantastic than the Yeti and aliens theories. Infrasound definitely disturb humans, but we are talking about nine resourceful human beings who leave their tent during the winter night with no proper clothing.
..............
 There is absolutely no scientific reason or empirical support to the theory that it happened in this case.


Part 1

As Per Inge Oestmoen, I think it is extremely unlikely that the DPI could have been caused by infrasounds

Dyatlov's group was a homogeneous and coherent group of 9 sportsmen and women trained in winter conditions, in perfect physical and mental conditions.
The hikers only encountered bad weather that was normally predictable and they were not tired having made (wisely) short stages.
In a word, the group's margin of safety was huge.

One factor that seems not to have been emphasized is that, living in Siberia in the 1940s and 1960s, hikers were acclimatized to the cold. Also for hiking the food provided seems to have been abundant.

That is to say, to keep to an order of magnitude estimate, I can assume that each had a digestive system capable of assimilating a food ration of 6,200 kilocalories per day.
So each hiker had an average power (thermal and mechanical) of 300 watts, (and not 100 watts as in the case of a city dweller in 2020).

At night, in the small tent where they were huddled together, there was the equivalent of a 9×300 = 2700 watts radiant heater.

As a result, even without using the stove, the temperature inside the tent was significantly higher than outside.

Little by little, under the influence of Eduard Tumanov and Per Inge Oestmoen...and others, I am moving towards solutions involving the action of attackers. These are solutions that have the tremendous advantage of being able to explain all the findings currently available. Thus, for example, it was the attackers who obviously cut the tent canvas on the morning of February 2, 1959, before quietly leaving for Vizhay or Settlement 41.


Part 2

The DPI fits easily and naturally into the history of the Khrushchev thaw period (1953-1964).
The DPI is typically an ordinary attack of a terrorist nature, resulting from the dismantling of the Gulag wanted by Khrushchev, one consequence of which was the purging of Stalinist NKVD(=MVD + MGB after 1946) personnel  by KGB agents.

Reminders :
          Death of Stalin: 5 March 1953.   
          Creation of the KGB: 13 March 1953.
          Arrest of Beria, head of the NKVD: 26 June 1953.

Acceleration of destalinisation by the secret speech, 25 February 1956, to the 20th CPSU (Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union).
          Death sentence on Boris Rodos: 26 February 1956
      21st CPSU: 27th January to 5th February 1959
      Dyatlov's group truck journey from Vizhay (13:10) to settlement 41 (16:30): 26 January 1959
 See :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De-Stalinization
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Soviet_Union_(1953%E2%80%931964)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KGB
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NKVD

A terrorist attack is a strategy in civil psychological warfare that had been frequently used in Russia as early as the 19th century; for example, the attacks from Narodnaya Volya that caused the death of Alexander II on 1 March 1881.

The terrorist attack is generally characterised by :
  Surprise and unpredictability
  Its effectiveness is due to the contrast between the smallness of the necessary means and the importance of the consequences, which are, however, often unexpected and sometimes even counterproductive. (cf. heterotelistic activity).

It is necessary to stress that a terrorist attack can either be prepared for a long time by a powerful organisation or, on the contrary, be spontaneously improvised by a single determined individual.

It would take a specialised historical study to know to what extent the DPI attack could have contributed to the fall of Khrushchev on 13 October 1964, to whom Brezhnev and his cronies blamed the disastrous consequences of the dismantling of Gulag carried out without sufficient precautions.

             The DPI is a small episode in the struggle of the NKVD Stalinists against the thaw of Khrushchev. The message that was thus sent to the Kremlin was: beware, do not tackle us, because we are ready to do absolutely everything to defend ourselves and preserve our privileges.


Part 3

Aleks Kandr proposes a complete reconstruction of the DPI which I believe is probable and from which I have drawn a great deal of inspiration.

It is not prisoners (zeks) who escaped from the Ivdellag camps, nor ex-zeks, who are suspected, but on the contrary guards (or ex-guards) of the Gulag camps in the Vizhay region.

They were therefore civil servants, which explains the cover-up of the thruth both by Khrushchev's government and also by Putin's present government.

An NKVD commanding officer, frightened by the consequences of the 20 th and 21 th CPSU,  had hired 3 Gulag camp guards specialised in the pursuit and destruction of the zeks who had escaped from the camps.

 See in Russian (I use Yandex translate) :

http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova
http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova-2
http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova-3
   https://taina.li/forum/index.php?topic=1002.0
   https://taina.li/forum/index.php?topic=12235.0
   https://taina.li/forum/index.php?topic=14852.0


Part 4

         WHY  :  Examples of moral depravity among some Gulag camp guards. 

Mistreatment and torture (encouraged by Joseph Stalin himself) perpetrated by some guards in the Gulag camps.
              Examples reported and drawn by Danzig Baldaev (1925-2005).

The drawings that Baldaev made when he was an official of the Soviet penitentiary administration (NKVD), give for the first time the opportunity to have a picture of the ordinary functioning of the Soviet camps, precisely in their most terrible and most violent aspects.
...obviously there was some persent of sadists among NKVD personnel
  ( law enforcement, army and service in penetenciary system attract more % of sadists then ordinary proffessions as it is proved by psychologists) .........
Danzig Baldaev was a camp gard (NKVD officer) of the Gulag. Denounced to the KGB, he was surprisingly allowed to continue to publish his drawings.
   See :
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/17/drawings-gulag-danzig-baldaev-review
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0956356249/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i2


Part 5

       WHO  :  An example of a client (commander) that might look like the initiator of the DPI.

The commander ( mastermind, client..) was a Stalinist officer of the NKVD whose situation had some similarities with that of Boris Rodos (1905-1955).
Boris Rodos built an extraordinary career as a torturer and executioner in Soviet dictator Josef Stalin's dreaded secret police, the NKVD.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Rodos
https://russian7.ru/post/boris-rodos-chto-stalo-s-samym-zhestokim/
https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-rodos-stalinist-executioner-son-nkvd-stalin/28249918.html

NKVD torturer and executioner Boris Rodos was sentenced to death one day after being denounced by Nikita Khruschev in his secret de-Stalinization speech of 1956.

Rodos was arrested in October 1953, sentenced to death on February 26, 1956, and was executed on 20 April 1956.


Part 6

       HOW   :  Some salient aspects of the "Altercation on the pass".

The hikers had (too) talked to Vizhay and Settlement 41 and the future attackers knew approximately where the hikers were going.

North-2 was quickly reachable by truck or sled and could serve as a shelter for an intermediate stage from which the attackers could rush.

     
The track left by the hickers in the snow is easy to follow and starting from North-2, it was possible to reach the tent in less than a day's skiing.

         
     
There was an attack by a trinome of Gulag camp guards who were specialised in the hunting down and killing of fugitive zeks and who were accustomed to some impressive mutilations of corpses.

The precipitous escape from the tent without holding the axes and the ice axe can result :

   a) Either a tear gas grenade introduced by surprise inside the tent.

   b) Or more likely a classic war trick of which I gave an example in an answer to WAB 
==>    Theories Discussion > General Discussion > Question List => September 22, 2020, 09:43:24 AM,  Reply #21
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=717.msg10826#msg10826

The trinome of mercenaries attackers had no firearms, which explains why it took them several hours to defeat the 9 hikers.

In a night hand-to-hand combat a great advantage of using a blunt object wrapped in rags is that it makes it possible to dicretly and silently, or almost silently, stun any victim who strays a little from the group.

At the level of the cedar it is possible that the most politically aware (Thibo, Kolevatov, Zolotatariov) preferred to hide in the Den protecting Dubinina,
while the remaining (3?, 4?, 5?) others opted to light a fire as a priority.

    The rib fractures can be explained by funny trampoline demonstrations on the elastic thoracic cages of the agonizing people ;
 ( 80 kg falling from 3 meters ==> 2400 joules).


 
  Planned continuation at
  Altercation on the pass > Altercation on the pass
 https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.30
Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.

October 20, 2020, 03:30:10 PM
Reply #96
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Jean Daniel Reuss. The way a Criminal Investigation takes place is very important for the final outcome. In the Dyatlov Case we do not have a final outcome because it hasnt been proved exactly what happened. In other words, any Investigation that has taken place since 1959 has failed to give us the exact reason for the demise of the Dyatlov Group. Therefore it follows that if any Investigation findings were put into a Court of Law it would be impossible for a Jury or Judges to come to a final decision. The same applies to Civil Investigations, its very important that the Investigation is carried out properly. This Forum and the Web Site that Teddy has created allows anyone to have their say on what they think may or may not have happened since, and including, the actual event in 1959. The fact is that we still do not have enough Information to be able to say exactly what happened. Simple as that. Plenty of room for speculation. But thats all it is, speculation. The initial Investigation in 1959, had some very serious flaws. And as a result of that we are where we are today. If any thing is being held back by the Russian Authorities then there must be a very good reason for that.
DB