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Author Topic: PASS without DYATLOV  (Read 17636 times)

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December 07, 2022, 06:08:27 AM
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Teddy

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I am preparing a Xmas special for you.
It has nothing to do with my theory but something that is new for me. It opens a new dimension into the case.
The idea is not out of the world or calling for a dwarf kingdom under the mountain. It is not one person who talks about it.
It turned out many solemn Russian obsessives believe in it and I just heard about it in person from someone I deeply respect, one of the key figures in the 1959 search.
I urge you to hit that Notify button at the bottom. I will publish it right here when I am ready.
For the story to be complete I need to translate a few more interviews or else you won't know the grounds for this speculation.
It is a big surprise, I promise you. I will try to be ready for Xmas morning, when presents are opened.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2022, 11:10:37 AM by Teddy »
 
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December 25, 2022, 05:49:07 AM
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Teddy

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I said I will try. Since I made the announcement I packed the computer and it is today that I am taking it out of the box. I relocated to a new home. Please bear with me, enjoy your eggnog or whatever, but find something to enjoy. The publication date is now moved to December 31, 2022.
My New Year's wish will be not for the ability to keep my promises but for the wisdom not to make such that I can not keep.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2022, 11:10:47 AM by Teddy »
 
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December 25, 2022, 05:58:27 AM
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GlennM


That's both understandable and cute! Get settled, get warm and comfy. All else will happen in time. Glenn in USA
« Last Edit: December 30, 2022, 11:10:57 AM by Teddy »
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

December 30, 2022, 10:27:34 AM
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Teddy

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First thing on the wall. I got it in Yekaterinburg in September. The same map hangs in the Dyatlov foundation.

 

December 30, 2022, 10:37:08 AM
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Teddy

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Askinadzi wrote to me a month ago: "I don't know if this book will be a welcome gift, but I will send it at my own risk. Please take a look. I believe the book deserves your attention. I would like to hear your opinion on it." Askinadzi is one of the most respected searchers alive that has his faculties and memory intact, but what is so charismatic about him is that he is rational, down to earth, approachable, very knowledgeable, a scientist. They all are, after all they all graduated from a prestigious institute. I am putting an emphasis on why I am offering the book to your attention. Vladimir Askinadzi is vouching for it!

I read it. I wouldn't have, at least not to the end, if it wasn't for Askinadzi. Problem is the (1) tone and the (2) fakes. But if you pass that you will learn a lot. Let's get it out of the way so we don't have to discuss it.

(1) Askinadzi worked with Bobrikov on the book for a long time. The first version was very crude, since Bobrikov was not a hiker. He offered Askinadzi co-authorship, but the latter said that the book should lose its aggressive and offensive tone, and stick to the facts. Bobrikov criticize Varsegova, Bartolomey, Sogrin, Blinov, everyone actually. Askinadzi believes that the criticism is not fair, because at the time they were no more than 22 years old. Askinadzi says that they were "under the pressure of the authorities, the information was then, and still is, hidden from us! ... they deliberately powdered our brains so that, God forbid, being eyewitnesses, we would see and guess what the authorities wanted to hide." Askinadzi says that this book especially angers the supporters of the criminal versions because it "pulls the rug from under their feet".

(2) The fakes don't really do anything for me because I know that all the free software e.g. Forensically that the sites (this book included) cite are for digital photography. Bobrikov says that the negatives are manipulated but he proves it with software that tracks changes on a digital image. Once scanned, whatever is done with the negative will not show as a defect. So I don't pay attention to "the fakes". I also tried to reproduce the results from the book and it turns out Bobrikov first did things in Photoshop to enhance the contours whatever to make his point, but in any rate I will not engage in discussing fakes. Askinadzi: "There are many sites using other methods and programs that speak of mass falsification of both photos and diaries, etc. Dyatlov researchers have been exposing falsifications of documents for a long time. After all, the fact that Dyatlov reached the northern side of Otorten was known (or guessed!) by Maslennikov (his son-in-law speaks about it), Tempalov, Ortyukov, Cheglakov (*). And those are just the ones I know of. They knew about the existence of a military training ground on the northern side of Otorten."

After reading the book I decided to ask Bobrikov questions. And then the bomb dropped: Bobrikov is dead. He gave his book to Askinadzi, they worked on it for a long time, and then one day Bobrikov stopped answering. This might also account for his self-assertive language. Askinadzi calls it a "swan song". So sentiments aside, what is the value of this book? Askinadzi: "I sent a book to many of my, as it seemed to me, like-minded people, so that they could get acquainted with a completely new approach to interpreting well-known documents, statements, memoirs of those whom they themselves take to be authoritative informants, which documents they perceive as reliable, devoid of fakes."

My heart changed about this book because this is exactly what drove me and Igor to seek explanation. If you compare the testimonies of "authoritative informants" then as Bobrikov says: "I had a feeling of a logical hallucination when I tried to comprehend and combine the stories of Akselrod, Slobtsov, Sogrin and some other participants in the epic search on Kholat Syakhl pass. It’s as if a dream interferes with reality, where some absurdities from the real world suddenly become quite understandable and natural. I'm already beginning to fear for my mental state and at the same time, an understanding of what this did to the Dyatlov case researchers treading these waters for decades... There is a confusion in the dates and sequence of events. Why back in the time no one feared that they would be taken all all together in one place and forced to tell the truth? They were not afraid because the "roof" was serious and reliable and reinforced a concrete legend. Everyone is already accustomed to the fact that it was on the slope of Kholat Syakhl, exactly under the cedar tree... exactly the flooring... exactly barefoot... exactly naked... exactly they got scared, they cut the tent..."

In our book "1079" Igor Pavlov and I explain the inconsistencies with the bodies being found twice. Bobrikov is placing the Dyatlov group on Otorten, not Kholat Syakh, but in the process of reading the book I also found out not without a surprise (Bobrikov is criticizing them) that a large circle of Dyatlov obsessives think there was a second group that was on Otorten with a special mission, that this whole charade was to cover the liquidation of the other group (in which they were pretty much successful since no one knows about them), and that the Dyatlov group was just a collateral damage that no one anticipated.

The book "PASS without DYATLOV'' has a very exploratory comparison of witness testimonies and fact discrepancies, it points out errors and omissions that one could usually attribute to the time that has passed. In any case it is a book that Askinadzi stands by and will introduce to this year's annual conference. Here is a chance for a sneak peek. I will continue adding to the post as I find more information referenced in the book or by Askinadzi (*). I think you have enough to give it a chance, sorry that it is in Russian but I believe you can use Google translator. You should be used to by now who the Woodpeckers are :)

Bottom line: this book highlights passages that we rarely read side by side with other testimonies, challenges old perceptions, and personally made me seek and translate new sources instead of feasting during the holidays. Last but not least - opens a line for communication with Vladimir Askinadzi which to me is the most precious gift. He is an extraordinary person.

Vladimir Askinadzi Who is Who: "Vladimir Mihaylovich Askinadzi (Владимир Михайлович Аскинадзи) born in 1937, in 1959 - 5th year student of the Physics and Technology Faculty of the UPI (Department of Experimental Physics, group 517, specialty №24); lived at the address: Room 303, 66 Lenin St, Sverdlovsk; the head of the search party UPI Apr 25 - May 8. Born on Apr 10, 1937 in Voronezh in a family of builders. In 1945, after his father was recalled from the active army, he was sent to build a plant manufacturing weapons-grade plutonium in Novouralsk (Sverdlovsk-44), where his family moved in 1946. Graduated from high school №49 in Sverdlovsk (in Sverdlovsk-44). In 1954 he became a 1st year of the metallurgical faculty of the UPI (specialty - ferrous metallurgy), later (apparently - from the 2nd semester) he transferred to Phystech; from September 1959 - in pre-diploma practice. After graduating from UPI in 1960 he was assigned to All-Russian Research Institute of Technical Physics (Chelyabinsk-70, Snezhinsk), where he completed his postgraduate studies and worked for 13 years. In 1973 for family reasons was forced to move to Sevastopol. In total, he worked in the defense industry for 35 years, also as the head of department and a chief designer of specialized design-engineering department (Sevastopol). Since 1996 he has been teaching at the university. Currently - a lecturer at the Sevastopol National University of Nuclear Energy and Industry. Master of Sports of the USSR in tourism 1970. Specialty - water tourism."


See photos of Vladimir Askinadzi then and now →
« Last Edit: December 30, 2022, 11:09:54 AM by Teddy »
 
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December 30, 2022, 10:53:31 AM
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Teddy

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You can see Potyazhenko's landing site and Syunikaev's unit 6602 camp on these maps. But take a closer look. Potyazhenko drew his landing site on a rock on the steep slope of Otorten. Semiletov and Bobrikov based their maps on the one Potyazhenko drew and gave Kuntsevich, but they moved Potyazhenko's landing site on the Lunthusaptur lake, the first place where a helicopter could have landed south of Otorten. The route on the last (simplified, no contour lines) map is drawn by Potyazhenko himself in 2014 during an interview by Irina. The route is clearly not ending on Otorten but the Dyatlov Pass. In that same interview Irina says that she had given up showing Potyazhenko other maps he can't see well. His sight has not gotten any better in four years when he circled in 2018 where he landed in 1959. Also he had taken picture of the rock where he landed and that is the rock with the monument plaque on the Dyatlov Pass. In another interview by Olga Potyazhenko clearly says that he "landed near a rock on the saddle between Auspiya and Lozva". When Potyazenko was shown a modern photo of Kholat Syakhl and the outlier rock: "here I was sitting (landed near the rock), there is a descent (points south to the Auspiya valley), in this place there was the soldier's camp..." Where did he see the tent of the Dyatlov group, he points to the Kholat Syakhl slope, "700 meters from the rock".

Controversial map by pilot commander Victor Potyazhenko 2018

Map by Pyotr Semiletov based on the map by Potyazhenko 2018

Map by Aleksandr Bobrikov based on the map by Potyazhenko 2022




« Last Edit: December 30, 2022, 11:10:20 AM by Teddy »
 

December 30, 2022, 12:14:10 PM
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Почемучка


А это произведение только читать или отзыв предполагается давать? В.А.Аскинадзи, понятное дело, по тематическим форумам не сидит безвылазно. Поэтому для него тезисы из этого творения вроде как новость. А так-то русские мученики темы Перевал Дятлова - уже давно прошли пятиногую лошадку дедушки Славы...

Is this work read-only or is it supposed to be a review? V.A. Askinadzi, of course, does not sit idle on thematic forums. Therefore, for him, the theses from this creation seem to be news. And so the Russian martyrs of the Dyatlov Pass theme have long passed the five-legged horse of grandfather Slava ...
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 

December 30, 2022, 12:14:49 PM
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GlennM


If the DP9 were collateral damage, does this imply the military knew they harmed the innocent hikers? If yes, they have a choice to render assistance or abandon the hikers to their fate. The latter choice is inherently risky. If even one hiker makes it to safety, the military will be exposed as perpetrating murder. It will not go unnoticed officially or in legend. It would be better to render assistance.

If the military did not know what they accidentally did,  then just what it that they did? Munitions, I would suspect. Surely, there would be blast debris, upturned earth, shards, and damaged trees to corroborate this idea. Next, to hide their sins, the military would go into the area, and hide evidence by cleaning up. The trouble is that a cleanup leaves evidence of cleanup. When you enter some space, you always bring something into that space (clue), and you always take something when you leave (clue). There is no perfect crime.



We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

December 30, 2022, 12:33:49 PM
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Почемучка


Вот только что рассматривала на https://taina.li/ именно такие трюки с данными. Есть архив - это "Особая папка" Хрущева Н.С. за 1959 год.
I just looked at https://taina.li/ just such tricks with data. There is an archive - this is the "Special Folder" of Khrushchev N.S. for 1959.

http://docs.historyrussia.org/ru/nodes/263217?query=%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BD#mode/inspect/page/6/zoom/4




Сто лет тому назад это все обсудили. Но опять наблюдательные головы узрели факт конспирации. Ну как же. Документ же за 7 марта, а в нем упоминается 21 февраля. А тогда еще и поиски-то не начинались толком. Ну все - прокололись власти.
А ведь чего проще - пойти глянуть запись за 21 февраля в той же папке. А там и понятно, относительно какого происшествия - эта дата в 21 февраля.

A hundred years ago, everyone discussed this. But again, watchful heads saw the fact of conspiracy. Well, how about. The document is for March 7, and it mentions February 21. And even then, the search did not really begin. Well, everything - the authorities were pierced.
But what's easier - go look at the entry for February 21 in the same folder. And there it is clear what kind of incident - this date is February 21.


Вот так и кипит дятловедение. То лошадь - с пятью ногами, то еще чего...
This is how woodpecker science boils. Either a horse - with five legs, or something else ...
« Last Edit: December 30, 2022, 12:40:11 PM by Почемучка »
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 

December 30, 2022, 01:36:44 PM
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Teddy

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five-legged horse of grandfather Slava ...
:))
Как угодно, I personally read your posts with very acute interest because you are bringing information, not just steering emotions. Something that you have been chewing for decades on taina.li is news here. Everything helps. Vietnamka once said that we want everything на блюдечке с голубой каемочкой (on a silver platter). Feed us information please.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2022, 02:55:42 PM by Teddy »
 
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December 30, 2022, 02:14:15 PM
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GlennM


five-legged horse of grandfather Slava ...

Does this expression have anything to do with virility?  It does in the USA.
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

December 30, 2022, 02:35:50 PM
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RMK


The "five-legged horse" refers to this photo, yes?

"Пятиногий конь" относится к этой фотографии, да?
 
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December 30, 2022, 02:54:43 PM
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Teddy

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Does this expression have anything to do with virility?

Only in your head :))
« Last Edit: December 31, 2022, 01:20:24 AM by Teddy »
 
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December 30, 2022, 09:39:39 PM
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Почемучка



:))
Как угодно, I personally read your posts with very acute interest because you are bringing information, not just steering emotions. Something that you have been chewing for decades on taina.li is news here. Everything helps. Vietnamka once said that we want everything на блюдечке с голубой каемочкой (on a silver platter). Feed us information please.
Теодора, когда всякий уважающий себя дятловед - видит в списке литературы ссылку на старика Кизилова, то он может спокойно и с чистой совестью не читать тот шедевр, в источники литературы которого вписан старик Кизилов. Слово на букву Р - репутация.

Theodora, when any self-respecting researcher of the topic sees a reference to the old man Kizilov in the list of references, then he can calmly and with a clear conscience not read that masterpiece, in the sources of literature of which the old man Kizilov is inscribed. The R word is reputation.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2022, 10:07:23 PM by Почемучка »
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 

December 30, 2022, 10:01:27 PM
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Почемучка


five-legged horse of grandfather Slava ...

Does this expression have anything to do with virility?  It does in the USA.
Пятиногая лошадь дедушки Славы - это такое устойчивое словосочетание типа иронии. Мем. Смысл - видеть то, чего нет и не было. В угоду своим представлениям. Соратники Кизилова, доказывая тотальную фальсификацию, - обнаружили на фото похода группы Дятлова пять ног у лошади.

The five-legged horse of Grandpa Slava is such a stable phrase like irony. Meme. The point is to see what is not and never was. For your own ideas. Kizilov's comrades-in-arms, proving a total falsification, found five legs on a horse in a photo of the campaign of the Dyatlov group.
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 
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December 30, 2022, 10:05:08 PM
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Почемучка


The "five-legged horse" refers to this photo, yes?

"Пятиногий конь" относится к этой фотографии, да?
О, да Вы в теме. Замечательно.
Oh yes, you are on point. Amazing.
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 
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December 30, 2022, 10:09:35 PM
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Почемучка


Feed us information please.
Не моя идея и сам В. А. Аскинадзи как-то сказал про то, что ветераны-поисковики договорились так вспоминать былое и пережитое на поисках, чтобы не бросать тень на участников группы Дятлова. Что собственно и наблюдаем в действиях Согрина, Бартоломея, Аскинадзи и так далее. Все что угодно, только не.
Теодора, вся загвоздка в том, что чем больше они стараются спрятать причину, тем больше она светится из-под этих неродных ей кирпичей-идей. Я написала на мой взгляд самое лучшее из полотен на тему разгадки. Да, полотно составное. Потому что такая история. Панорамная живопись. Так звезды сложились.
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1190.msg20006#msg20006
Not my idea, and V. A. Askinadzi himself once said that veteran searchers agreed to remember the past and experienced in the search so as not to cast a shadow on the members of the Dyatlov group. What we actually observe in the actions of Sogrin, Bartholomew, Askinadzi and so on. Anything but not.
Theodora, the catch is that the more they try to hide the cause, the more it shines from under these non-native idea bricks. I wrote in my opinion the best of the paintings on the topic of clues. Yes, the canvas is composite. Because such a story. Panoramic painting. That's how the stars aligned.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2022, 10:18:51 PM by Почемучка »
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 

December 31, 2022, 01:19:30 AM
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Teddy

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when any self-respecting researcher of the topic sees a reference to the old man Kizilov in the list of references, then he can calmly and with a clear conscience not read that masterpiece...
You are preaching to an audience that doesn't know what Kizilov stands for, but now maybe their interest will pick up and they will learn so they can get the picture. My role is not to tell what I think is worth reading but to make available as many references as I could. Let's say - if you are graduating, we are still in first grade.
 

December 31, 2022, 02:03:33 AM
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Почемучка


when any self-respecting researcher of the topic sees a reference to the old man Kizilov in the list of references, then he can calmly and with a clear conscience not read that masterpiece...
You are preaching to an audience that doesn't know what Kizilov stands for, but now maybe their interest will pick up and they will learn so they can get the picture. My role is not to tell what I think is worth reading but to make available as many references as I could. Let's say - if you are graduating, we are still in first grade.
Кто ж с этим Вашим тезисом - захочет поспорить? Но мысль в том, что Майя Пискарева начинала с Кизиловым, потом разумеется они сильно и принципиально разошлись во взглядах. Настолько, что у старика Кизилова даже смерть Майи - тоже стала очередной бредовой конспирологической теорией и фальсификацией. Кизилов - это такие исходные данные, которые сразу можно считать тупиковой веткою.

Who wants to argue with this your thesis? But the idea is that Maya Piskareva started with Kizilov, then, of course, they strongly and fundamentally differed in their views. So much so that even the death of Maya for old Kizilov also became another delusional conspiracy theory and falsification. Kizilov is such initial data that can immediately be considered a dead end branch.
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 

December 31, 2022, 02:16:21 AM
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Teddy

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Почемучка, I believe it is a culture that one has to adopt if you are going to stay on the Dyatlov case for longer hoping not to lose your mind and getting angry all the time at "people inadequacy". When I start reading something it's like getting on a roundabout which starts spinning, spinning and soon enough getting out of control. The trick I learned is to hold on for your dear life and sometimes, only sometimes unfortunately, it pays off. Example:
Она с одной стороны тетради писала песни, а с другой - дневниковые походные записи.
She wrote songs on one side of the page, and diary entries on the other.


I disagree that Grigoriev would have missed two-sides page entries. Read the transcript and translation here →.



But instead of spinning off the roundabout I hold on and read to the end.

This is my lyric digression. I haven't encounter one single piece written on the subject of the Dyatlov group demise which is not plunging everyone into arguments before it ends. How one react to things he disagrees with is telltale of their character. I don't want to argue with you about your small speculation but to show the readers that Grigoriev actually saw and described the notebook you are referring to.


« Last Edit: December 31, 2022, 02:25:50 AM by Teddy »
 

December 31, 2022, 02:21:31 AM
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Почемучка



Она с одной стороны тетради писала песни, а с другой - дневниковые походные записи.
She wrote songs on one side of the page, and diary entries on the other.


I disagree that Grigoriev would have missed two-sides page entries. Read the transcript and translation here →.


Мне придется Вам сейчас пересказывать рассказ Г.К.Григорьева. Он писал, что просил у Иванова другие дневники группы. Тот давал ему личный дневник Зины и тетрадь с песнями, которые Григорьев уже видел. И больше ничем Иванов  ему помочь не мог. Общий дневник - Григорьев тоже видел. Григорьев хотел больше подробностей про сам поход. Вы же в курсе, что дневник Люды - не имеет этого содержания. Тем не менее - в документе об обнаружении палатки упоминается дневник Колмогоровой, где четко датирована последняя запись.
Освежите это в своих знаниях. Другого ничего нет - из вариантов. У Зины была тетрадь для песен. Именно отдельная тетрадь.
Поисковики имели все дневники и могли определить почерк. Зинин почерк - очень характерен. Есть образцы почерка всех туристов. Они - в личных делах и собственноручно написанные автобиографии.

I will have to retell the story of G.K. Grigoriev now. He wrote that he asked Ivanov for other diaries. He gave him Zina's personal diary and a notebook with songs that Grigoriev had already seen. And Ivanov could do nothing more to help him. General diary - Grigoriev also saw. Grigoriev wanted more details about the trip itself. You are aware that Lyuda's diary does not have this content. Nevertheless, the document about the discovery of the tent mentions Kolmogorova's diary, where the last entry is clearly dated.
Refresh it in your knowledge. There is nothing else - from the options. Zina had a notebook for songs. It's a separate notebook.
The search engines had all the diaries and could determine the handwriting. Zinin's handwriting is very characteristic. There are handwriting samples of all tourists. They are in personal files and self-written autobiographies.

Quote
Блокнот Г. К. Григорьева Ураган в горах-3
https://proza.ru/2013/11/21/1193
Quote
Из дневника погибшей группы Дятлова (общий дневник, вели по очереди)                [а где даты (???)? 3.2.90г]
1) Колмагорова. В 571? идут последние приготовления. Конс.банки с консервами, пачки с крупой (???) кашей и т.п. заталкиваем в рюкзаки. Оказалось, что забыли соль. 3кг соли в нескольких пачках расталкиваем по рюкзакам. Ищем 15коп позвонить. Берем мандолину. -пимы забыли
2) В вагоне (едут уже на север) за окном встала тайга
3) В Серове ночевали на вокзале. Им дали теплой воды напиться, натопили ком.хорошо. Пели песни. Милиционер запретил петь. У Золотарева много новых песен.
4) Встреча с учениками в Серове. Золотарев им рассказывает, что такое туризм.
5) В Ивделе на вокзале ночевали.
6) В автобусе утром отправились на Вижай. Народу и рюкзаков, лыж, было так много, что нагрузили в проходе до потолка. В одном месте пришлось вылезать и автобус вытаскивать.
7) Ночевали на Вижае, затем на 41(пос.лесорубов), потом на 2-ом Северном.
-9-Тут ночевали в избушке, забыли закрыть вьюшку и к утру все выстыло.(Где-то расстались с гр.Блинова, которая пошла по другому маршруту. Эта группа с собой взяла собаку)
8) Со 2-го Чеверного пошли на лыжах. Температура была -17-8-26град. Похолодание вечером. Ветер больше дул западный.
9) Ночевка в лесу в палатке. От печки жарко. Палатку делят на два отсека, т.е по обе стороны печки. Зина лежала с Рустиком и спор(?) начнется с Колеватовым. Так в лесу ночевали в палатке несколько раз. Раскидывали палатку обычно вечером при костре, на котором готовили пищу.
10) Последние записи говорят о том, что идти очень трудно. Лыжи постоянно утопают в снегу. Несколько раз пробовали идти по реке Ауспии, но часто под снегом попадалась вода (наледь), лыжи постоянно покрывались льдом. Приходилось останавливаться счищать его. Уходило много времени. Снова покидали реку и уходили на ее берега, и снова глубоко тонули в снегу. Через каждые 10 минут меняли первого, часто отдыхали. Дятлов разработал новый способ идти. Первый, положив рюкзак в снегу, шел 5мин. Затем отходил в сторону, его менял второй. А он возвращался за рюкзаком и догонял группу. Так шли лучше и беспрерывно, до этого метода
-10-очень часто отдыхали. При таком методе очень трудно идти второму.
10) Дорогой встречали следы манси, их знаки, засечки. Местами шли по их тропам.
11) При костре растянули палатку. Для костра не стали рыть в снегу яму: очень устали. Закусили в палатке и легли спать. Поднимались в 8(???) Уходили около 10ч
12) Есть такая запись. Как хорошо, тепло в палатке. Не верится, что здесь, за многие десятки километров от селения(?), около подножия Ур.хребта можно так хорошо уснуть в палатке.
13) Последняя запись гласит о том, что ветер со скор.взлетающего самолета. Все метет. Деревья чахлые. Идти очень трудно.
14) Рюкзаки тяжелые. Говорится, что когда ехали на 2-ой север, т.е когда рюкзаки везли на лошади, идти было очень хорошо!
15) Почему Юдин ушел. Пишут о Юдине, который остается и провожает их до 2-го Северного только лишь затем, чтобы там для коллекции институту набрать камней. Но там особенно ничего не нашли. Побывали в камералке.
9. Юдин не заболел. Этот дневник о походе, общий Иванов Л.Н. назвал самым полным и подробным. Затем он мне дал рукописный дневник, как он сказал – это З.Колмогоровой. Но он у меня переписан и я взамен попросил дру
-11-гой, так как он все дневники мне не дал. Тогда он дал дневник, как сказ(?) З.Колмогоровой, но это оказалась записная книжка с песнями, которые они переписывали у Золотарева.





П.С. У меня не домыслы. У меня исключительно тщательный анализ имеющихся данных. И выводы не на пустом месте.
Личный дневник Зины - ни следствие, ни поисковики не решались делать вещественным доказательством. Да и найден он был скорее всего в Ивделе. Не думаю, что Зина бросала его на показ. Это было очень личным.

P.S. I don't have speculation. I have an exceptionally thorough analysis of the available data. And the conclusions are not empty.
Zina's personal diary - neither the investigation nor the search engines dared to make material evidence. Yes, and it was most likely found in Ivdel. I do not think that Zina threw him to the show. It was very personal.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2022, 02:57:17 AM by Почемучка »
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 

December 31, 2022, 02:52:19 AM
Reply #22
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Manti


The "five-legged horse" refers to this photo, yes?

"Пятиногий конь" относится к этой фотографии, да?
I see four legs and a tail.


 
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December 31, 2022, 03:00:01 AM
Reply #23
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Почемучка



I see four legs and a tail.
Это хорошая примета.
This is a good omen.
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 

December 31, 2022, 03:06:33 AM
Reply #24
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Teddy

Administrator
Zina's personal diary - neither the investigation nor the search engines dared to make material evidence. Yes, and it was most likely found in Ivdel. I do not think that Zina threw him to the show. It was very personal.
Are you saying there is a diary missing, not this one: https://dyatlovpass.com/zinaida-kolmogorova-diary
and not what Grigoriev refers to as a notebook with songs?
« Last Edit: December 31, 2022, 03:11:20 AM by Teddy »
 

December 31, 2022, 03:12:11 AM
Reply #25
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Почемучка



You are saying there is a diary missing, not this one: https://dyatlovpass.com/zinaida-kolmogorova-diary ?
Этот личный дневник Зины до сих пор хранится вроде у родных Зины. Его вернули родным.
Нет тетради с песнями. Которая видимо и служила для дублированных записей о событиях на маршруте.
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-case-files-29.jpg
Это нормальная практика у советских студентов. Писать с обоих сторон. Если с бумагой - дефицит. Гляньте в дневник Люды. У неё не было личной тетради для песен, она писала песню - в свой дневник.


This personal diary of Zina is still kept by Zina's relatives. He was returned to his family.
There is no songbook. Which apparently served for duplicate records of events on the route.
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-case-files-29.jpg
This is a normal practice among Soviet students. Write on both sides. If with paper - shortage. Look at Luda's diary. She did not have a personal notebook for songs, she wrote a song - in her diary.
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 

December 31, 2022, 03:07:03 AM
Reply #26
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Teddy

Administrator
They all write on both sides of the page. What I meant songs on one side and something else on the other. Isn't this what you mean?
I am not arguing, I am trying to clarify your point. You are saying that there is a yet another diary, we haven't seen, that has songs on one side of the page and personal entries from Zina on the other side of the page?
 

December 31, 2022, 03:15:05 AM
Reply #27
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Почемучка


They all write on both sides of the page. What I meant songs on one side and something else on the other. Isn't this what you mean?
I am not arguing, I am trying to clarify your point. You are saying that there is a yet another diary, we haven't seen, that has songs on one side of the page and personal entries from Zina on the other side of the page?

Это остатки нам от того, что было песенником Зины. Иванов давал его Григорьев как дневник. Песен в нем было много, а записей походных - всего две. Поэтому Григорьеву этот документ ничем не помог. Он про это и записал. Он посчитал его песенником. А Иванов посчитал - дневником. С точною датою. А в личном дневнике Зины - там вообще 30 февраля 1959 года.

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-case-files-29.jpg

Вы же видите даты?
24 января - когда Зина видит Юру Дорошенко на перроне Свердловского вокзала с другою девушкою.
30 января - это после разговоров с итогом "Ловелас так ловелас"

These are the remnants to us from what was Zina's songbook. Ivanov gave it to Grigoriev as a diary. There were a lot of songs in it, but there were only two recordings of marching songs. Therefore, this document did not help Grigoriev. He wrote about it. He considered him a songwriter. And Ivanov considered it a diary. With the exact date. And in Zina's personal diary - she is generally on February 30, 1959.

Do you see the dates?
January 24 - when Zina sees Yura Doroshenko on the platform of the Sverdlovsk railway station with another girl.
January 30 - this is after talking with the result of "Lovelace so Lovelace"
« Last Edit: December 31, 2022, 03:53:27 AM by Почемучка »
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 

December 31, 2022, 03:31:00 AM
Reply #28
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Teddy

Administrator
This is when it pays to hold on! This is a revelation for me, that the copy of the diary that is in the case files as Kolmogorova's is actually Kolmogorova's, but they didn't publish all pages, did I get it right?

Added later: But you are saying that the rest were songs only.
 

December 31, 2022, 03:45:24 AM
Reply #29
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Почемучка


This is when it pays to hold on! This is a revelation for me, that the copy of the diary that is in the case files as Kolmogorova's is actually Kolmogorova's, but they didn't publish all pages, did I get it right?

Added later: But you are saying that the rest were songs only.
Другого из имеющейся информации - не получается. Я это открытие сдела в прошлом году. Осенило, когда была очередная битва с оппонентами. Основная масса текста - были песни. Как и положено в песеннике. И только с другой стороны - две записи про дни похода. Самые тяжелые дни для Зины.

Г. К. Григорьев - это вообще потерянный клад. Он знал Н.Огнева еще в 1958 году. Писал о нем в статье. Такую колоритную личность - трудно не запомнить. И вот он первым из всех читает личный дневник Зины Колмогоровой и там полное описание внешности Н.Огнева.
Какие как Вы думаете он шаги - мог предпринять? Наверное искать встречи с Огневым? Пытаться с ним поговорить позже?

Other of the available information - does not work. I made this discovery last year. It dawned on me when there was another battle with opponents. The bulk of the lyrics were songs. As it should be in a songbook. And only on the other hand - two entries about the days of the campaign. The most difficult days for Zina.


GK Grigoriev is generally a lost treasure. He knew N. Ognev back in 1958. Wrote about it in an article. Such a colorful personality is hard not to remember. And now he is the first of all to read the personal diary of Zina Kolmogorova and there is a complete description of the appearance of N. Ognev.
What steps do you think he could take? Probably look for a meeting with Ognev? Try to talk to him later?
« Last Edit: December 31, 2022, 03:51:52 AM by Почемучка »
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 
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