suitcase bomb

[Игорь Б.]

Колеватов сделал сани из обрезков лыж. Их видно на фотографии:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=6688&view=findpost&p=70067

[tenne]

my idea is that they didn't finish the route like they were going to once they found out the sled didn't work to pull the tent along with them. Given the fact it took so long to get permission and if they went back early they could be in as much trouble as being late, IMO, they simply skied around the area they last used tried to pull the tent on

Are you suggesting that if the hikers did not finish when they said they would, then they would not get their certification?
Is this the trouble they would get into?

I trust we are not talking about a suitcase bomb on the ski sled. Wouldn't Yuri Yiden's supplies be the thing carried on the sled? After all, hemwent home early. Please comment.

No, I am suggesting that a trip that got someone interested enough in it to insert a KGB member into it, would have a lot of explaining to do why they didn't do the trip. From my limited understanding, any deviation of plans in the soviet union were harshly examined.

No, not the suitcase bomb on the sled, the sled was to be used for pulling the tent along and it didn't work, so IMO, they didn't try to finish because there is no way a frozen canvas tent could be put into a back pack and carried. My question about the suitcase bomb was about the 'device' that was tested. they used the term sled for skis used to pull stuff on so did they mean a sled? mis translation?

[Почемучка]

I can't fully remember Charles scenario. I might have it saved on my posts. Any how, as I recall , it was the timeline of meetings at the railway station. I can't remember who's father it was that was killed. I get too busy trying to cross examine looking on the internet to double check but it seemed plausible. In my goofing around on the web , I came across a reference to a nuclear disaster in 1957. Allegedly one of the hikers father's worked there. He left and was ordered to go back, he wouldn't. The father of the hicker had some title , "" general" , but not in a military sense . Kyshtym disaster. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyshtym_disaster. Whether this is what Charles meant I don't know. Unfortunately with Charles , we ended up going down other paths, it got left behind and things evolved to other ideas.

Зачем Вы гуляете в каком-то левом интернете? Все и абсолютно все есть на этом ресурсе. Документально.
Не отец, а сам Георгий Кривонищенко попал по распределению после окончания Уральского политехнического института - туда, где уже состоялась Кыштымская авария. Его отец строил будущую атомную станцию - Белоярскую. На момент гибели сына - там были только еще стены. Никакой действующей атомной электростанции. Он действительно был - военным строителем при достаточных погонах. На стройке работало много зэков и конфликты там были делом житейским. Известно происшествие когда недовольные большой нагрузкой зэки явились к нему на разборки. Все обошлось и трения сторон обошлись по-мирному.

Причем тут Саша Колеватов? У которого отец попал под поезд в 1944 году и который был инвалидом еще со времен революционной борьбы 1917 года? Отец Саши Колеватова воевал на стороне белых и был сильно травмирован. Увечье позволяло работать только на легком труде. Таком как бухгалтерия.

Why are you walking in some left Internet? Everything and absolutely everything is on this resource. Documented.
Not the father, but Georgy Krivonischenko himself, got into distribution after graduating from the Ural Polytechnic Institute - to the place where the Kyshtym accident had already taken place. His father built the future nuclear power plant - Beloyarskaya. At the time of his son's death, there were only walls there. No operating nuclear power plant. He really was - a military builder with sufficient shoulder straps. Many convicts worked at the construction site, and conflicts there were a matter of life. An incident is known when prisoners, dissatisfied with the heavy workload, came to him for a showdown. Everything worked out and the friction of the parties managed peacefully.
And what about Sasha Kolevatov? Whose father was hit by a train in 1944 and who had been disabled since the revolutionary struggle of 1917? Sasha Kolevatov's father fought on the side of the whites and was badly injured. The injury allowed him to work only on light labor. Sort of like accounting.

[Ziljoe]

[

Why are you walking in some left Internet? Everything and absolutely everything is on this resource. Documented.

Почемучка ,Sometimes I roam long distances like the Wolverine. I like to look and occasionally it leads down rabbit holes which it leads to things I've not read. I do not know if everything is on this resource and I like to triangulate my information.

I take what others say as the truth but sometimes it is lost in interpretation. I have not yet read every article supplied here.

If this is not allowed, I will stop.

[Почемучка]

Почемучка ,Sometimes I roam long distances like the Wolverine. I like to look and occasionally it leads down rabbit holes which it leads to things I've not read. I do not know if everything is on this resource and I like to triangulate my information.

Поверьте уж мне. Здесь самый полный архив чем где-либо. Российские источники давно стали ссылками в никуда. Теодора очень вовремя все у себя собрала по большей части. Информация не хранится на ресурсах вечно, потому что ресурсы не вечны. У нас столько хороших площадок и исследователей рухнуло, потому что исследователи обрели свою точку зрения и расстались с темой.

Trust me. Here is the most complete archive than anywhere else. Russian sources have long become links to nowhere. Theodora collected everything at her place very timely for the most part. Information is not stored on resources forever, because resources do not last forever. We have so many good sites and researchers collapsed, because the researchers found their point of view and parted with the topic.

[tenne]

Почемучка ,Sometimes I roam long distances like the Wolverine. I like to look and occasionally it leads down rabbit holes which it leads to things I've not read. I do not know if everything is on this resource and I like to triangulate my information.

Поверьте уж мне. Здесь самый полный архив чем где-либо. Российские источники давно стали ссылками в никуда. Теодора очень вовремя все у себя собрала по большей части. Информация не хранится на ресурсах вечно, потому что ресурсы не вечны. У нас столько хороших площадок и исследователей рухнуло, потому что исследователи обрели свою точку зрения и расстались с темой.

Trust me. Here is the most complete archive than anywhere else. Russian sources have long become links to nowhere. Theodora collected everything at her place very timely for the most part. Information is not stored on resources forever, because resources do not last forever. We have so many good sites and researchers collapsed, because the researchers found their point of view and parted with the topic.

I just want to make sure I understand what you are saying here, you believe that everything the soviet government released was the truth?

while I agree that this is the best site hands down for the official government documents, etc, I do doubt the truth of the reports, lying was the norm in soviet russia to protect both one's self and their family. there is a special name for those lies, I can't remember what it is, but I was told this by a person who spoke russian that there is a special name for lies told to people who know they are lies but have to continue to support that lie for their own safety, mainly in the military area. official lies I guess they would be called?. I could be wrong of course, I do not speak russian

[Почемучка]

I just want to make sure I understand what you are saying here, you believe that everything the soviet government released was the truth?

while I agree that this is the best site hands down for the official government documents, etc, I do doubt the truth of the reports, lying was the norm in soviet russia to protect both one's self and their family. there is a special name for those lies, I can't remember what it is, but I was told this by a person who spoke russian that there is a special name for lies told to people who know they are lies but have to continue to support that lie for their own safety, mainly in the military area. official lies I guess they would be called?. I could be wrong of course, I do not speak russian

Если под советским правительством Вы понимаете выводы в документе о прекращении уголовного дела, то я отвечаю. Да, итоги расследования определили причиной неблагоприятные погодные условия. 

If by the Soviet government you understand the conclusions in the document on the termination of the criminal case, then I answer. Yes, the results of the investigation identified the cause of adverse weather conditions.

[Почемучка]

I can't remember what it is, but I was told this by a person who spoke russian that there is a special name for lies told to people who know they are lies but have to continue to support that lie for their own safety, mainly in the military area. official lies I guess they would be called?. I could be wrong of course, I do not speak russian

Это слово - дезинформация. Оно не особо русского происхождения. Это опять латынь. У дезинформации всегда цель подать что-то в нужном аспекте. Необходимость может диктоваться разными необходимыми причинами для государства.
Чаще всего - это используется во внешней разведке. Для той страны, которая имеет смутное представление о делах другой страны.
Например, в коммерческой деятельности конкурирующие компании часто используют для своих конкурентов - именно дезинформацию. О том что компания - сделала какое-то важное открытие, патент, который выведет её в лидеры рынка.
Дезинформация для своего населения - это когда специальными мерами внедряется не тот уровень обстоятельств, что был на самом деле. Например, в ковиде обвиняли Китай и активно обвинял США. Оказалось, США - и были главным шеф-поваром этой неприятности.

This word is disinformation. It is not of particularly Russian origin. It's Latin again. Disinformation always has the goal of presenting something in the right aspect. Necessity may be dictated by various necessary reasons for the state.
Most often - it is used in foreign intelligence. For a country that has a vague idea of ​​the affairs of another country.
For example, in commercial activities, competing companies often use misinformation for their competitors. The fact that the company has made some important discovery, a patent that will make it a market leader.

Disinformation for its population is when the wrong level of circumstances is introduced by special measures that was in fact. For example, China was blamed for covid and the United States was actively blamed. It turned out that the USA was the main chef of this trouble.

[RMK]

For me , he came up with the best motive .

Surely, you don't find a Kolevatov-assassination scenario credible?!

I disagree with his diagram and use of statistics.

In what ways?

Hi RMK.

I can't fully remember Charles scenario. I might have it saved on my posts. Any how, as I recall , it was the timeline of meetings at the railway station. I can't remember who's father it was that was killed. I get too busy trying to cross examine looking on the internet to double check but it seemed plausible.

[snip]

His illustration doesn't work when he spreads his fractures across the group. When he uses world wide statistics , all variables are lost. The the stats cover all fractures . For the sample, the fractures from RTA would need to be put together , then a pattern would appear, then question , were they wearing seat belts, then how old was the car, what model, did it have air bags etc.

Like wise, what are the stats for broken ribs by human violence, flali chest fractures etc. Ribs broken by land slides , so on.  My understanding of the broken/fractured  ribs is the were along a straight line. This implies that the force was applied over a large area of the chest. I don't think it's easy to do by human hands/feet /elbow. Possibly by having someone lie down, and then let the whole body weight of the attacker come down with force might do it. But it's a messy , inconvenient way to murder. IMO.

Well, OK, that's fair; in your post, you specifically referred to the "motive", and not to Charles' scenario as a whole.  I regard his scenario as a a whole to be too far-fetched and to rely too much on unlikely coincidence.  But, I will give him some credit for originality regarding the motive.  There are other homicide theories that propose that only one member of Dyatlov's group was the target, with the others being "collateral damage"...BUT, the one being targeted is usually proposed to be Dubinina (because her big mouth got her in trouble) or Zolotaryov (because his mysterious past caught up with him).  I've never seen a theory before that proposed Kolevatov as the the target!

Concerning the fractures...I understand the point you make about "all variables lost", and I do acknowledge here that limitation of Charles' argument:

It's unfortunate that the study you cite concerns (as aforementioned) "all-cause" morbidity of bone fractures, and does not present statistics stratified by cause-of-injury (e.g., misadventure/accident versus assault versus self-inflicted), but I think it is safe to assume that the vast majority of fractures occur due to misadventure or accident, and not due to human malice.  That is, we can treat the bodily distribution of fractures reported in the GBDS as being "approximately" typical of accidental fractures.

Think of it like this: if the Dyatlov Pass Incident was due to some misadventure, is it not surprising that we observe not even one fractured humerus, radius, or ulna?

[GlennM]

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Down came the Tzar, up goes the Communist. Now you say the Communist earn no trust so down they go. Why would the Communist lie about nine lonely people on a distant mountain who took a chance and froze? They were not rich, they had no power, they were deep in Soviet territory. They were loyal to the State. They had intelligence and skills. They were no threat. They were respected and accepted by their school. They acted appropriately for their age. There was certainly no bomb and certainly no soldiers to bother them.

Follow the money! If the hikers were killed, show who got a payment. Show who becomes a hero of the Soviet by murder. Show who can silence the familiesmof the dead and Yuri Yuden during his life.

A natural disaster in the snow makes much more sense. No more dreaming with eyes open.

[tenne]

I can't remember what it is, but I was told this by a person who spoke russian that there is a special name for lies told to people who know they are lies but have to continue to support that lie for their own safety, mainly in the military area. official lies I guess they would be called?. I could be wrong of course, I do not speak russian

Это слово - дезинформация. Оно не особо русского происхождения. Это опять латынь. У дезинформации всегда цель подать что-то в нужном аспекте. Необходимость может диктоваться разными необходимыми причинами для государства.
Чаще всего - это используется во внешней разведке. Для той страны, которая имеет смутное представление о делах другой страны.
Например, в коммерческой деятельности конкурирующие компании часто используют для своих конкурентов - именно дезинформацию. О том что компания - сделала какое-то важное открытие, патент, который выведет её в лидеры рынка.
Дезинформация для своего населения - это когда специальными мерами внедряется не тот уровень обстоятельств, что был на самом деле. Например, в ковиде обвиняли Китай и активно обвинял США. Оказалось, США - и были главным шеф-поваром этой неприятности.

This word is disinformation. It is not of particularly Russian origin. It's Latin again. Disinformation always has the goal of presenting something in the right aspect. Necessity may be dictated by various necessary reasons for the state.
Most often - it is used in foreign intelligence. For a country that has a vague idea of ​​the affairs of another country.
For example, in commercial activities, competing companies often use misinformation for their competitors. The fact that the company has made some important discovery, a patent that will make it a market leader.

Disinformation for its population is when the wrong level of circumstances is introduced by special measures that was in fact. For example, China was blamed for covid and the United States was actively blamed. It turned out that the USA was the main chef of this trouble.

it also has two words for lies: lozh (ложь) and vranyo (враньё)
You know I’m lying, and I know that you know, and you know that I know that you know, but I go ahead with a straight face, and you nod seriously and take notes.

[Почемучка]

it also has two words for lies: lozh (ложь) and vranyo (враньё)
You know I’m lying, and I know that you know, and you know that I know that you know, but I go ahead with a straight face, and you nod seriously and take notes.

Ложь и вранье - это методы достижения личных персональных целей. То есть одного и конкретного человека.
Пример, мне нравится фасон твоего платья и я хочу такое же. Но очень не хочу чтобы мы с тобою появились где-то - в одинаковом наряде. И тогда я тебе скажу - что тебе цвет не идет, что ты в нем как корова в седле и еще кучу минус-комплиментов. Если у нас взаимоотношения не лучших врагов, то платье ты поменяешь. Это будет моей ложью для моих целей.
Дезинформация - это государственные интересы. Когда что-то делается из соображений выгоды для большего числа населения. То есть для многих людей.

Эти вещи прекрасно понимают люди имеющие образование. И мало понимают - с его отсутствием. Возможно Канада именно так смотрит на образование. Стране нужны люди просто эмоциональные и не знающие как их эмоциями режиссируют.
Знание русского языка тут не играет роли. Чтобы понимать суть - достаточно знать историю Вашей родной страны. А эта история - написана на Вашем языке. У Канады тоже есть исторические примеры игры в дезинформацию. И есть исторические примеры личной лжи для своих корыстных или неосознанных интересов.

Lies and lies are methods for achieving personal personal goals. That is one and the same person.
Example, I like the style of your dress and I want the same. But I really don’t want you and me to appear somewhere - in the same outfit. And then I'll tell you - that the color does not suit you, that you are in it like a cow in the saddle and a bunch of minus compliments. If our relationship is not the best of enemies, then you will change the dress. This will be my lie for my purposes.
Disinformation is in the public interest. When something is done for reasons of benefit for a larger number of the population. That is for many people.
These things are well understood by people with education. And they understand little - with its absence. Perhaps this is how Canada views education. The country needs people who are simply emotional and who do not know how they are directed by their emotions.
Knowledge of the Russian language does not play a role here. To understand the essence - it is enough to know the history of your native country. And this story is written in your language. Canada also has historical examples of playing disinformation. And there are historical examples of personal lies for their own selfish or unconscious interests.

[tenne]

not sure what your point is, the is didn't happen in canada, therefore canadian culture isn't at issue.

To compare apples to apples, are you saying that 1959 canada was a communist country with a dictator and gulags where enemies of the state were sent to?

Because that is the time frame and political climate we are talking about, not 2022 Canada and Russia

[Почемучка]

not sure what your point is, the is didn't happen in canada, therefore canadian culture isn't at issue.

To compare apples to apples, are you saying that 1959 canada was a communist country with a dictator and gulags where enemies of the state were sent to?

Because that is the time frame and political climate we are talking about, not 2022 Canada and Russia

Государственные интересы остаются государственными интересам при любой форме власти. Если у Вас произойдет утечка ядовитых веществ в прибрежные воды от какого-нибудь важного для государства предприятия и это будет угрожать политической стабильности власти при недовольстве населения, то опять применят такой фокус как дезинформацию.
И на 1959 год - подобные истории имелись и в Канаде. Все это в Ваших газетах - тех именно лет. Изучайте историю Вашей страны - и Вам станет понятно. Нет стран - идеальной как Вы понимаете честности. И в Канаде - есть группы населения, которые ставятся ниже других. Коренные народы Северной Америки - это далеко не французы. Почитайте как против них работает политика дезинформации.
Хотя о чем я? Вы же внучка потомственного зверолова. Такого, кто вытеснил с охотничьих угодий веками живших там индейцев и от них и мокрого места не осталось. И Вам внушили - что это правильно. Это теперь Ваше место - под солнцем над Канадою...
State interests remain state interests under any form of government. If you leak toxic substances into coastal waters from some important enterprise for the state and this threatens the political stability of the authorities and the discontent of the population, then again they will use such a trick as misinformation.
And in 1959 - there were similar stories in Canada. All this is in your newspapers - of those exact years. Study the history of your country - and you will understand. There are no countries - ideal as you understand honesty.And in Canada - there are population groups that are placed below others. The indigenous peoples of North America are far from French. Read how the policy of disinformation works against them.
Although what am I talking about? You are the granddaughter of a hereditary trapper. The one who drove out the Indians who lived there for centuries from the hunting grounds and there was not even a wet place left of them. And you were told - that this is correct. This is now your place - under the sun over Canada ...

[tenne]

okay..... as far as I can tell you are saying that canada in1959 was a communist country with a dictator and people were sent to gulags as political prisoners totally comparable with the soviet union and that culture. got it

You also believe that my grandfather was so powerful that he single handedly drove out the first nations from northern ontario (because he was a trapper? even though first nations didn't have metal before contact but whatever) got it

I am not sure what the first nations and the french have to do with it and why you think he was a hereditary trapper since he was the first generation to come over from Scotland in my paternal side of the family and be a trapper but in 100% honesty, I don't care why you think that

this incident took place in 1959 communist soviet union, and therefore what happens there is what is pertinent to this discussion although it is obvious that you do not understand what pertinent means so I am wasting my time talking to you

[Зайцев]

this incident took place in 1959 communist soviet union, and therefore what happens there is what is pertinent to this discussion although it is obvious that you do not understand what pertinent means so I am wasting my time talking to you

Чарлз, вы на самом деле зря тратите время. Своё, в том числе.
Charles, you are really wasting your time. Yours, including.

[tenne]

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Down came the Tzar, up goes the Communist. Now you say the Communist earn no trust so down they go. Why would the Communist lie about nine lonely people on a distant mountain who took a chance and froze? They were not rich, they had no power, they were deep in Soviet territory. They were loyal to the State. They had intelligence and skills. They were no threat. They were respected and accepted by their school. They acted appropriately for their age. There was certainly no bomb and certainly no soldiers to bother them.

Follow the money! If the hikers were killed, show who got a payment. Show who becomes a hero of the Soviet by murder. Show who can silence the familiesmof the dead and Yuri Yuden during his life.

A natural disaster in the snow makes much more sense. No more dreaming with eyes open.

If a natural disaster makes the most sense, then that should be an open and shut case as it is in every single northern country who has to deal with people freezing to death.

If this was a natural event, then it should have happened before and since and all the evidence should point to it and there is normally zero disagreement with what happened to X when they froze to death

[Почемучка]

Чарлз, вы на самом деле зря тратите время. Своё, в том числе.
Charles, you are really wasting your time. Yours, including.

Зайцев, у Вас тоже ощущение что бомбу натягивают на Гулаг?  А это уже по законам криминалистики - следы, улика...

Zaitsev, do you also have the feeling that a bomb is being pulled on the Gulag? And this is already according to the laws of forensic science - traces, evidence ...

[GlennM]

Tenne,  I agree that is should be open and shut. Why the mystery? I think that if it were an avalanche, the dead,would be found under the fan of snow. If it was murder, there would be no doubt. If it was an accident, there should be traces ( like a fallen tree in the woods with tent and blood on it).

It is not open and shut because of the bodies, the tent and away the investigation was done. If there is no deathbed confession, if there is no money trail, if there is no evidence in the forest, then we are left with death by natural causes, which is exactly what the evidence shows. It is just not that satisfying when conspiracy is much more exciting.

What do you think, my friend?

[tenne]

I have my doubts it was natural because of my own experiences in the forest, winter camping and cross country ski trips.

I can not see 9 experienced outdoor people panicking at the same time. One maybe or two but not 9, including a combat veteran. 

The 'evidence' as presented makes no sense to me:
walking in bare feet or socks in -17 does not leave freezing foot prints. walking in slush that freezes does but this happened at night and the temps were not near freezing

not lighting the camp stove, the very first priority when winter camping is to get a source of heat established. it is necessary for both heat and melting snow to drink, both of which are vital in these conditions. eating snow as a source of moisture is only done in extreme cases because it lowers the inner body temps too much to be worth it

walking down a slope for that far and then making a sharp turn to get to a cedar? if there is an avalanche or threat, you DO NOT go down hill, you go sideways into the trees

lighting a fire with frozen hands, in the dark (a full moon isn't much help under trees) finding tinder and firewood in the dark and with the wounds on the hands

the injuries do not make sense for a natural occurrence, nor does leaving a lit fire,

so I believe there was a cover up, a poorly done one because THEY were not used to having to cover things up. when THEY said X happened, everyone said yes it did, as was pointed out, these were people who questions would be asked

I do not believe it was intention murder, it was an accident that would expose or embarrass someone

[GlennM]

This is an excellent response, thanks.

I can not see 9 experienced outdoor people panicking at the same time. One maybe or two but not 9, including a combat veteran.

I agree, but what would affect them and force their action? The interior of the tent did not seem to point to a panic response.
The 'evidence' as presented makes no sense to me:
walking in bare feet or socks in -17 does not leave freezing foot prints. walking in slush that freezes does but this happened at night and the temps were not near freezing
Is not -1< far below freezing? Walking in bare feet of socks is simply crazy. I agree.

not lighting the camp stove, the very first priority when winter camping is to get a source of heat established. it is necessary for both heat and melting snow to drink, both of which are vital in these conditions. eating snow as a source of moisture is only done in extreme cases because it lowers the inner body temps too much to be worth it

I would certainly want a warming fire and hot food in those conditions.

walking down a slope for that far and then making a sharp turn to get to a cedar? if there is an avalanche or threat, you DO NOT go down hill, you go sideways into the trees
I believe that is true. It reminds me of swimming sideways to get out of a rip current.

lighting a fire with frozen hands, in the dark (a full moon isn't much help under trees) finding tinder and firewood in the dark and with the wounds on the hands

And yet a fire seems to have been made. Could it be from the rescue party? It is improbable that criminals would start a fire, unless to warm themselves while others suffer.

the injuries do not make sense for a natural occurrence, nor does leaving a lit fire,

I do not know what injuries would make sense, to be honest,it would make sense to leave a lit fire by bringing some to the next location.

so I believe there was a cover up, a poorly done one because THEY were not used to having to cover things up. when THEY said X happened, everyone said yes it did, as was pointed out, these were people who questions would be asked

There lies the problem. Just what is there to cover up that that would cost nine lives? A fallen tree? Who would be to blame?  A munition? How would anyone know where to look?  Yuri Yuden really suspected a military SNAFU.  If so, someone knows, even today.


I do not believe it was intention murder, it was an accident that would expose or embarrass someone

That person was more important than the DPI 9. Any guesses?

[Ziljoe]

For me , he came up with the best motive .

Surely, you don't find a Kolevatov-assassination scenario credible?!

I disagree with his diagram and use of statistics.

In what ways?

Hi RMK.

I can't fully remember Charles scenario. I might have it saved on my posts. Any how, as I recall , it was the timeline of meetings at the railway station. I can't remember who's father it was that was killed. I get too busy trying to cross examine looking on the internet to double check but it seemed plausible.

[snip]

His illustration doesn't work when he spreads his fractures across the group. When he uses world wide statistics , all variables are lost. The the stats cover all fractures . For the sample, the fractures from RTA would need to be put together , then a pattern would appear, then question , were they wearing seat belts, then how old was the car, what model, did it have air bags etc.

Like wise, what are the stats for broken ribs by human violence, flali chest fractures etc. Ribs broken by land slides , so on.  My understanding of the broken/fractured  ribs is the were along a straight line. This implies that the force was applied over a large area of the chest. I don't think it's easy to do by human hands/feet /elbow. Possibly by having someone lie down, and then let the whole body weight of the attacker come down with force might do it. But it's a messy , inconvenient way to murder. IMO.

Well, OK, that's fair; in your post, you specifically referred to the "motive", and not to Charles' scenario as a whole.  I regard his scenario as a a whole to be too far-fetched and to rely too much on unlikely coincidence.  But, I will give him some credit for originality regarding the motive.  There are other homicide theories that propose that only one member of Dyatlov's group was the target, with the others being "collateral damage"...BUT, the one being targeted is usually proposed to be Dubinina (because her big mouth got her in trouble) or Zolotaryov (because his mysterious past caught up with him).  I've never seen a theory before that proposed Kolevatov as the the target!

Concerning the fractures...I understand the point you make about "all variables lost", and I do acknowledge here that limitation of Charles' argument:

It's unfortunate that the study you cite concerns (as aforementioned) "all-cause" morbidity of bone fractures, and does not present statistics stratified by cause-of-injury (e.g., misadventure/accident versus assault versus self-inflicted), but I think it is safe to assume that the vast majority of fractures occur due to misadventure or accident, and not due to human malice.  That is, we can treat the bodily distribution of fractures reported in the GBDS as being "approximately" typical of accidental fractures.

Think of it like this: if the Dyatlov Pass Incident was due to some misadventure, is it not surprising that we observe not even one fractured humerus, radius, or ulna?

I agree with you to a point. It is the lack of broken/ fractured bones in the humerus, radius and ulna along with no reported fractures in the hands and wrists. Dislocation , removed finger nails , fracture eye sockets. Skin/ cloth in finger nails. Broken toes if in socks if fighting. None of this in the autopsy. There no sign for fight against humans. Obviously there's a tipping point , if the outsiders had a gun, you would run for it or take them on. Use your teeth head, fist etc. Other than the rib fractures, I would expect more injuries . They other injuries are too light? If that makes sense.

[GlennM]

I have a vision in my mind about kids in blow up Sumo wrestler suits fighting each other. It's a funny sight. With that in mind, I can't see ( no pun intended) hand to hand combat out there in the snow in the dead of winter, in a blizzard at night. 

[Почемучка]

To compare apples to apples, are you saying that 1959 canada was a communist country with a dictator and gulags where enemies of the state were sent to?

Вот пример сравнения яблока с яблоком.
Here is an example of apple to apple comparison.
https://www.science.org/toc/science/140/3564
SCIENCE
VOLUME 140|ISSUE 3564|19 APR 1963

Ring-shaped cloud seen at sunset on 28 February 1963 in northern Arizona and areas of nearby states. The height, as estimated from four photographs made in Tucson, Arizona, about 190 miles to the south of the cloud (which appeared overhead near Flagstaff), is about 35 kilometers. This photo was taken by Clarence E. Peterson of Bremerton, Washington, while he was looking almost due north from near Camp Verde, Arizona. The unusual nature of the cloud was evident to observers who noted its striking luminosity long after the sun had set at ground level. It was at least 11 kilometers higher than the upper limit of possible jet contrail formation, and was at least 5 kilometers higher than previously reported nacreous clouds of the arctic type. Its true nature is still unknown; more photos are being sought for triangulation purposes. See page 292.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.140.3564.292.b

То был неудачный запуск

28 февраля 1963 года с авиабазы ​​Ванденберг была запущена ракета «Тор», которая вывела на орбиту спутник-шпион. Ракета сбилась с курса, и центр управления полетами взорвал ракету на высоте 44 км, прежде чем она смогла выйти на орбиту. В результате взрыва ракеты над юго-западом США появилось большое круглое облако. Из-за своей загадочной природы, появляющейся на очень большой высоте и видимой за сотни миль, облако привлекло всеобщее внимание и было опубликовано в средствах массовой информации.

Облако было показано на обложке журнала Science Magazine в апреле 1963 года, журнала Weatherwise Magazine в мае 1963 года, а полностраничное изображение было опубликовано в майском номере журнала Life Magazine . Профессор Джеймс Макдональд из Института физики атмосферы Университета Аризоны исследовал это явление и связал его с запуском ракеты «Тор» после контакта с военнослужащими на базе ВВС Ванденберг. Когда позднее записи о пусках были рассекречены, ВВС США опубликовали служебную записку, в которой объяснялось, что облако стало результатом военной операции.

That was a bad launch.

On February 28, 1963, a Thor rocket was launched from Vandenberg Air Force Base, which put a spy satellite into orbit. The rocket veered off course and mission control detonated the rocket at an altitude of 44 km before it could reach orbit. As a result of the rocket explosion, a large round cloud appeared over the southwestern United States. Due to its mysterious nature, appearing at a very high altitude and visible hundreds of miles away, the cloud has attracted worldwide attention and has been published in the media.
The cloud was featured on the cover of Science Magazine in April 1963, Weatherwise Magazine in May 1963, and a full-page image was published in the May issue of Life Magazine. Professor James McDonald of the Institute of Atmospheric Physics at the University of Arizona investigated the phenomenon and linked it to the launch of a Thor missile after contact with military personnel at Vandenberg Air Force Base. When the launch records were later declassified, the US Air Force released a memo explaining that the cloud was the result of a military operation.

Вот список произведенных запусков с информацией об удачном запуске и неудачном.
Here is a list of launches made with information about successful launch and failure.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Thor_DM-18_launches

Так сколько и где наблюдалось странных явлений в небе над США? И как скоро население получало ответы о природе того, что оно наблюдало? А в это время что-то происходило и в Англии. Программа по развертыванию в Великобритании новых БРСД получила наименование "Project Emily". Для наблюдения и технической поддержки при развертывании новой системы оружия САК ВВС США в феврале 1958 года активировало 705-е стратегическое ракетное крыло на авиабазе Лэйкенхит, Великобритания. Оборудование и системы, подлежащие развертыванию, начали перебрасываться в Великобританию в августе 1958 года. Первая БРСД была передана Королевским ВВС в сентябре того же года. История умалчивает - о нештатных событиях при этой вооружаемости и разумеется обучению пользоваться новым оружием. А тактико-технические характеристик ракеты планировали её падение на Москву при записке из Англии.
Причем не только на Москву, но и дальше, по мишеням в глубине СССР.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PGM-17_Thor

So how many and where were observed strange phenomena in the sky over the United States? And how soon did the population get answers about the nature of what they observed? At the same time, something was happening in England. The program for the deployment of new IRBMs in the UK was named "Project Emily". In February 1958, the US Air Force activated the 705th Strategic Missile Wing at Lakenheath Air Force Base, UK, to monitor and support the deployment of the new SAC weapon system. The equipment and systems to be deployed began moving to the UK in August 1958. The first IRBM was handed over to the Royal Air Force in September of the same year. History is silent about emergency events with this armament and, of course, learning to use new weapons. And the performance characteristics of the rocket planned its fall on Moscow with a note from England. And not only to Moscow, but also further, on targets in the depths of the USSR.

++++++++++++++++++

Так чем различаются яблоки? Где разница, если речь идет об интересах государства?
So how are apples different? Where is the difference when it comes to the interests of the state?

[tenne]

Is not -1< far below freezing? Walking in bare feet of socks is simply crazy. I agree.

freezing rain officially starts at -0.1 so -1 isn't that cold and any snow from it, at least here where I live, would be rain or slush


I would certainly want a warming fire and hot food in those conditions.

the fire also has a very very important task of ensuring the clothing for the next day is dry, starting out in wet, damp clothing in winter is literally a killer so I can't think of a single reason to not have it lit


I believe that is true. It reminds me of swimming sideways to get out of a rip current.

I do not know what a rip current is so I will believe you.


And yet a fire seems to have been made. Could it be from the rescue party? It is improbable that criminals would start a fire, unless to warm themselves while others suffer.

we don't know when the fire was lit, it could have been there from another party or the criminals used it to flush out freezing victims (if you think the killers were there)



I do not know what injuries would make sense, to be honest,it would make sense to leave a lit fire by bringing some to the next location.

85.7% of deaths were due to asphyxiation, 8.9% were due to a combination of asphyxiation and trauma, and 5.4% were due to trauma alone. Head injuries were frequent in those killed solely by trauma.

[tenne]

In an avalanche, the main danger is getting trapped by the ice it creates. when the snow comes down, the speed of it melts its self and when it stops moving it freezes so the person is trapped in ice.

That is why back country location devices are so important on the body, so the rescuers can find you and get you out of the ice pocket before you run out of oxygen.

[Ziljoe]

No one is arguing the point of an avalanche as we see on TV.  A snow slope or slide is the argument,

[Ziljoe]

Is not -1< far below freezing? Walking in bare feet of socks is simply crazy. I agree.

freezing rain officially starts at -0.1 so -1 isn't that cold and any snow from it, at least here where I live, would be rain or slush


I would certainly want a warming fire and hot food in those conditions.

the fire also has a very very important task of ensuring the clothing for the next day is dry, starting out in wet, damp clothing in winter is literally a killer so I can't think of a single reason to not have it lit


I believe that is true. It reminds me of swimming sideways to get out of a rip current.

I do not know what a rip current is so I will believe you.


And yet a fire seems to have been made. Could it be from the rescue party? It is improbable that criminals would start a fire, unless to warm themselves while others suffer.

we don't know when the fire was lit, it could have been there from another party or the criminals used it to flush out freezing victims (if you think the killers were there)



I do not know what injuries would make sense, to be honest,it would make sense to leave a lit fire by bringing some to the next location.

85.7% of deaths were due to asphyxiation, 8.9% were due to a combination of asphyxiation and trauma, and 5.4% were due to trauma alone. Head injuries were frequent in those killed solely by trauma.

We can argue the temperature all day long, but the raised footprints were recorded. It happens, it is fact. Weather they are the foot prints from the dp9 or later , can be argued.

Drying clothes mean they get wet, older clothing , canvas etc is actually better than modern clothing in wicking sweat etc. We have weight v sweat. There would be little moisture from cold snow. Breathable clothes are important. I read somewhere that a person that went out in cold conditions would wear an under cloth , like a condom ( heaven forbidden) . The sweat would between his skin and and the condom skin. When making camp. Off with the body (condom suit). Then back into the normal clothing.

If the stove was used to dry clothes , it would only create steam. I'm no expert in such cold cold conditions.

But tourism is a big passtime in Russia. It shouldn't be a problem.

[tenne]

I can only attest to what the conditions here are and that may have as much to do with humidity as anything. Wet clothing is only going to steam if it is put too near a heat source too quickly and the vast majority would be damp, not wet. If the clothing isn't too wet, you can dry it by sleeping with it so steam isn't an issue. Extra moisture freezing outside the tent, yes but the gain of dry clothing would be well worth that price.

Not sure where you are going with the inner layer because you would still have to take that layer off and dry it out before putting it back on the next morning. these were not disposable like condoms.

clothing always gets damp, snow lands in places it shouldn't from other skis, trying to sit down, falling, snow blowing etc so I am not sure it would ever be possible to do a hard ski in deep snow and not literally work up a sweat

It isn't a problem, these conditions, they are a fact of life. People deal with it. Here, where I live, we have special racks that go over the register to hold boots and gloves, hats etc open so the heat can dry them (boots and mitts upside down so fingers point to the ceiling so heat can enter). It's a long slow dry so even winter boots with rubber can be safely dried

[Ziljoe]

I can only attest to what the conditions here are and that may have as much to do with humidity as anything. Wet clothing is only going to steam if it is put too near a heat source too quickly and the vast majority would be damp, not wet. If the clothing isn't too wet, you can dry it by sleeping with it so steam isn't an issue. Extra moisture freezing outside the tent, yes but the gain of dry clothing would be well worth that price.

Not sure where you are going with the inner layer because you would still have to take that layer off and dry it out before putting it back on the next morning. these were not disposable like condoms.

clothing always gets damp, snow lands in places it shouldn't from other skis, trying to sit down, falling, snow blowing etc so I am not sure it would ever be possible to do a hard ski in deep snow and not literally work up a sweat

It isn't a problem, these conditions, they are a fact of life. People deal with it. Here, where I live, we have special racks that go over the register to hold boots and gloves, hats etc open so the heat can dry them (boots and mitts upside down so fingers point to the ceiling so heat can enter). It's a long slow dry so even winter boots with rubber can be safely dried

My apologies tenne.

People have been hiking for years, wool, rabbit, cotton, canvas clothes etc.

There are weaves of cloth that keep heat and avoid wind , whilst not freezing. It depends on exertion. It's a trade off.

The tourist/hikers, of USSR are no different  to USA, Europe etc of that time period and clothing.  Ww2 and ww1 were fought in cold climates. They all did not die from cold and they would not have had a heat source. Even the expositions to the south pole, or the north.