a test today on lighting matches

[tenne]

Not sure if anyone is interested but it is -26 today where I live and I just dropped my nephew off for a cross country ski trip so I thought I would see if I could light big old fashioned matches in -26 with no gloves

 I was out in the cold for exactly 3 min 25 seconds when I tried to light the matches. I did not have the dexterity to do so and with big mitts on, that was also impossible. I was not in the wind at all, as I assume being under the cedar would most likely block the wind

so how the survivors managed to light a fire in that cold is beyond me

[Ziljoe]

I have had the same thoughts tenne. The only other option is the weather was warmer and less wind.

[tenne]

it looks like the weather under the cedar was -17.7 to -30.8
from 11pm to 7am according to the weather chart I found on this page

[Ziljoe]

The reports on the weather varey quite a bit depending on what resource. The evidence for it being warmer is the raised foot prints. They need a certain temapture / conditions for them to have remained so long. A warm front then , to freeze, or so I believe. I'm not an expert , but it kind of makes sense. I've not experienced that type of cold.

[GlennM]

Ziljoe, do you think it possible for the hiker with the matches to  put their hand inside the parka, next to the skin of their body to get the necessary warmth to handle the match? If we can not assume hikers lit their own fire, what a can of worms that will be!

[tenne]

Ziljoe, do you think it possible for the hiker with the matches to  put their hand inside the parka, next to the skin of their body to get the necessary warmth to handle the match? If we can not assume hikers lit their own fire, what a can of worms that will be!

given my experiments at different temps, and the fact that as far as anyone can see they didn't have any tinder to light so it would take quite a few matches, no, it wouldn't help. once the fingers are frozen and stiff it is very hard to get the working for fine things like lighting matches

[tenne]

The reports on the weather varey quite a bit depending on what resource. The evidence for it being warmer is the raised foot prints. They need a certain temapture / conditions for them to have remained so long. A warm front then , to freeze, or so I believe. I'm not an expert , but it kind of makes sense. I've not experienced that type of cold.

the footprints drive me up the wall because I have tried at different temps to leave tracks and I can't. not like that. I just went out, its now -21 in a wool and a cotton sock. the snow stuck to both, much more to the wool of course and my prints didn't melt and won't. From what I have done, walking in snow in socks, the snow sticks to the sock and then freezes, the snow on the ground doesn't freeze from the foot

[Ziljoe]

Ziljoe, do you think it possible for the hiker with the matches to  put their hand inside the parka, next to the skin of their body to get the necessary warmth to handle the match? If we can not assume hikers lit their own fire, what a can of worms that will be!

Hi GlennM.

Well , there was a fire, burnt/singed  socks, handkerchief found. To get a log, branch going would be difficult. They may have got the sap from the branches of the fir tree. It's maybe why they broke them where they did. Close to the trunk. One could use teeth to hold the box and get a match in the first I suppose. There would be a number of ways, especially if there's more than one person. The tinder is an interesting point. But maybe enough small twigs with a bit of clothing could get things going but that kind of rules out strong winds?

[Ziljoe]

The reports on the weather varey quite a bit depending on what resource. The evidence for it being warmer is the raised foot prints. They need a certain temapture / conditions for them to have remained so long. A warm front then , to freeze, or so I believe. I'm not an expert , but it kind of makes sense. I've not experienced that type of cold.

the footprints drive me up the wall because I have tried at different temps to leave tracks and I can't. not like that. I just went out, its now -21 in a wool and a cotton sock. the snow stuck to both, much more to the wool of course and my prints didn't melt and won't. From what I have done, walking in snow in socks, the snow sticks to the sock and then freezes, the snow on the ground doesn't freeze from the foot

Igor b , in this forum posts his experiment's. I think he managed to replicate it. These foot prints seem to happen and have been documented. It might have something to do with the humidity also. I'll try and find Igor's b link.

[tenne]

it was also night and while there was an almost full moon, it would be difficult to find tinder in the dark under the cedar tree

[tenne]

The reports on the weather varey quite a bit depending on what resource. The evidence for it being warmer is the raised foot prints. They need a certain temapture / conditions for them to have remained so long. A warm front then , to freeze, or so I believe. I'm not an expert , but it kind of makes sense. I've not experienced that type of cold.

the footprints drive me up the wall because I have tried at different temps to leave tracks and I can't. not like that. I just went out, its now -21 in a wool and a cotton sock. the snow stuck to both, much more to the wool of course and my prints didn't melt and won't. From what I have done, walking in snow in socks, the snow sticks to the sock and then freezes, the snow on the ground doesn't freeze from the foot

Igor b , in this forum posts his experiment's. I think he managed to replicate it. These foot prints seem to happen and have been documented. It might have something to do with the humidity also. I'll try and find Igor's b link.

That would be great if you could find it, humidity and cold do not usually go hand in hand, not the extreme cold anyway. for example its -21 here and the humidity is 67%

[GlennM]

Tenne,
Please make this clear to me.
Did you make impressions in the snow with your socks?
 Was the wool impression larger than the cotton impression?
 Did the impressions continue to grow larger as you walked in the snow as the the show accumulated on the socks?
Were the footprints in the snow solid enough to become raised like the footprints the rescuers found.

Also:
Can you also do a boot print in the snow, similar to the one Teddy believes is a boot print.
Teddy thinks a print in the snow looks like a boot heel, but what about the sole of the,foot print? Would it preserve as well as a heel print?
What kind of snow boots do you think were used by people in 1959?

You are doing something good! Please continue your research.

[tenne]

Tenne,
Please make this clear to me.
Did you make impressions in the snow with your socks?
 Was the wool impression larger than the cotton impression?
 Did the impressions continue to grow larger as you walked in the snow as the the show accumulated on the socks?
Were the footprints in the snow solid enough to become raised like the footprints the rescuers found.

Also:
Can you also do a boot print in the snow, similar to the one Teddy believes is a boot print.
Teddy thinks a print in the snow looks like a boot heel, but what about the sole of the,foot print? Would it preserve as well as a heel print?
What kind of snow boots do you think were used by people in 1959?

You are doing something good! Please continue your research.

Yes, I made prints in the snow. with the cotton sock my toes could be clearly seen (we had about 3 cm of new snow that I walked in). the prints never became solid enough because the snow didn't melt to then freeze in the extremely short time a foot presses into the snow while walking. the prints just blew away

the snow was so dry it never really formed much larger tracks but I also didn't walk for too far as it was so cold. the snow didn't melt on my sock until I came in but I was only out for a very short time, maybe 3 min because it was too cold and frost bite isn't my friend

not sure what you mean about boot prints? all boots leave tracks in the snow but they don't freeze in very cold weather, they blow away.

[Игорь Б.]

all boots leave tracks in the snow but they don't freeze in very cold weather, they blow away.

Да, поэтому установлено, что обледеневшие следы-столбики были оставлены днём 1 февраля при потеплении перед приходом холодного атмосферного фронта:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=114039

[Ziljoe]

all boots leave tracks in the snow but they don't freeze in very cold weather, they blow away.

Да, поэтому установлено, что обледеневшие следы-столбики были оставлены днём 1 февраля при потеплении перед приходом холодного атмосферного фронта:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=114039

Thank you Igor b.

Tenne this is the translated  page, you will need to look at his page for the you tube video and chart photos.


Yesterday, on March 28, 2022, weather conditions in Yekaterinburg were almost the same as on the Dyatlov Pass at the time of the incident on February 1, 1959.

There was thick wet snow. The air temperature in the shade was about +1°C, but at ground level the temperature remained below zero. The snow did not melt and did not freeze around the tracks.

Attached image

On the freshly fallen layer of snow, traces of a cold boot were left. The next day, March 29, after a frosty night, when the tracks were frozen, an imitation of blowing out the tracks was made by sweeping with a very hard brush:

Attached image


The tracks turned out to be very strong, semi-icy on top. They broke with difficulty:

Attached image


Unlike footprints formed from dry snow in frosty weather:


the wind does not have such traces inflate.

But traces-columns of the Dyatlovites most likely iced up in two stages.
First, on the day of the incident on February 1, and then, having already been blown out during the next warming on February 13, the tracks finally iced up under the influence of the sun, not only from above, but also from the sides.

[tenne]

"But traces-columns of the Dyatlovites most likely iced up in two stages.
First, on the day of the incident on February 1, and then, having already been blown out during the next warming on February 13, the tracks finally iced up under the influence of the sun, not only from above, but also from the sides."



Are you saying the tracks happened during the day when it was warm and the snow was wet or did it happen after 11pm when the snow would have been frozen?

According to the documents on this site, the weather on Feb 1-2 never got above -12 so I am a bit confused that you say the temps were above freezing at that time
and i will watch them, thank you

[tenne]

"Yesterday, on March 28, 2022, weather conditions in Yekaterinburg were almost the same as on the Dyatlov Pass at the time of the incident on February 1, 1959.

There was thick wet snow. The air temperature in the shade was about +1°C, but at ground level the temperature remained below zero. The snow did not melt and did not freeze around the tracks."

according to the official records, the temp didn't go up past -12 so are you saying that the official reports are wrong?

[Manti]

I have somehow missed this thread until now.

I also wondered about the conditions on the slope. I have a shocking idea. The raised footprints can also form even if it's very cold - as you say the temperature never went above -12C and that is not measured on the pass but further away (Burmantovo), the pass would have been colder.

But the footprints can form in cold powder snow even. If... you make them with wet socks.

Wild theory but is it possible they accidentally stepped into the stream that has its source on that slope, and then left the footprints downslope of where that happened?

[tenne]

I would think that if a person stepped in the powder snow with wet socks, the snow would stick to the sock and freeze and make a very distorted print, but I'm not going to try. This is just based on what wet mitts and gloves do when a person tries to make a snow ball with wet gloves...

as far as I can see, the only snow conditions that would produce those prints are the same ones that would allow a person to make a snow ball, or at least here that is true. the snow has to have enough moisture in it to hold its shape, all a wet glove does is make the snow stick to it and you lose the snow ball fight, or at least I usually did. one main reason, IMO, that most people wear nylon outside lining gloves, so the snow doesn't stick to them

[Ziljoe]

Here's some information on raised foot prints.  They are more common than I would have guessed. Alaska to UK .

It says they can last for several months but this bit is interesting.

"Because it requires more than a gale to blow away snow, raised footprints are often taken as an indicator of windslab and in mountain slopes, as potential avalanche danger. "

https://www.amusingplanet.com/2013/04/raised-footprints-in-snow.html

[tenne]

the main cause of avalanches here, in the mountains, is the layers of snow that are very powdery and other layers that are very wet, like a layer cake, the dry powder snow is a layer of powdered sugar (instead of icing) and the wet snow is the cake, pile it high enough and the cake will slide off the powdered sugar, if that makes sense.

so yes I can see them being an indicator of avalanches. I would also like to see how deep the snow was that was compressed and how heavy the people were that made it. Were they heavily loaded and walking in deep snow? that could make a print I think, but someone light walking in socks on packed snow, even if with a light layer of powder on it? I don't know

[Ziljoe]

I don't know either tenne but it does fit with what we know. There were raised foot prints. The thickness of the layers would change constantly over the season. Freezing, thawing a bit, dry snow, wind and snow , wet snow and all the combinations . As you say, like a layer cake. They did dig a trench for the tent and if more snow fell during the time in the tent, a slab of snow sliding on a hard layer just may be enough to make them think worse. Once the first bit slides it makes everything above have the possibility to slide.

It's all about how they perceived the danger. They may not of been certain where they pitched the tent as the photos show poor visibility .If it was day time and good visibility they might have laughed and saw that they were in no immediate danger but if it was night, poor visibility and the first bit has collapsed the tent and more keeps sliding , not a lot but enough to make you not know, you must make a choice to move somewhere.

With their experience , they will have realised they cut in to a slope. Do you stay ? Or do you go?.

[GlennM]

To sum up at this point, striking matches in frigid conditions with mittens is failure prone, though someone claims to be able to achieve it. The topic veered off into raised prints in the snow. The consensus seems to be that a special set of conditions are needed. Finally, unstable snow could have impacted the tent. Uncertaintymover what would follow was sufficient reason for the hikers to leave.

In fact, a fire was built,foot prints were found and the tent was abandoned and found in snow. There was structural,damage.

It appears to me that a hurried decision was made to leave the damaged tent, but the egress was controlled. When the forest was reached,,skilled hands were able to set a,fire. If the weather relented, they could have survived. The corpses and the snow cave demonstrate that the inclement weather persisted. This is the compelling force. Everything else that happened appears to be a consequence of well intentioned, but futile efforts to outlast the weather. This is a good thread. Actual experimentation happened.

[tenne]

"In fact, a fire was built, foot prints were found and the tent was abandoned and found in snow. There was structural,damage."

All the above are true however there is no proof that these were done by the hikers. The fire, the foot prints and the tent all could have been put there by the people who staged it, if as I do you believe that. If not then you believe the hikers did it. Sadly, unless someone saved some important papers and photos, I don't think we will ever know

[Ziljoe]

To sum up at this point, striking matches in frigid conditions with mittens is failure prone, though someone claims to be able to achieve it. The topic veered off into raised prints in the snow. The consensus seems to be that a special set of conditions are needed. Finally, unstable snow could have impacted the tent. Uncertaintymover what would follow was sufficient reason for the hikers to leave.

In fact, a fire was built,foot prints were found and the tent was abandoned and found in snow. There was structural,damage.

It appears to me that a hurried decision was made to leave the damaged tent, but the egress was controlled. When the forest was reached,,skilled hands were able to set a,fire. If the weather relented, they could have survived. The corpses and the snow cave demonstrate that the inclement weather persisted. This is the compelling force. Everything else that happened appears to be a consequence of well intentioned, but futile efforts to outlast the weather. This is a good thread. Actual experimentation happened.

Sorry GlennM,

Didn't mean to go off topic. You know how it is , one thing leads to another.

"In fact, a fire was built, foot prints were found and the tent was abandoned and found in snow. There was structural,damage."

All the above are true however there is no proof that these were done by the hikers. The fire, the foot prints and the tent all could have been put there by the people who staged it, if as I do you believe that. If not then you believe the hikers did it. Sadly, unless someone saved some important papers and photos, I don't think we will ever know

It's logical to work to the simplest explanation and work outwards from there. Thehikers could make fire, there's no doubt about that. They did it the days before. They had matches and paper. I don't think people would have staged the foot prints, they would not know if they would be found? If they thought of this they would have all their other prints up and down the slope/wood/tent/ landing pad. Lifting up and putting down bodies , sledges , you name it. All with the possibility of being spotted by Mansi.

I think the hickers could and knew how to light a fire.

[tenne]

The hikers absolutely knew how to make fires and could make them. The question is could they make them at night, in the cold, at night, under those conditions? their fingers are freezing, which quickly reduces how much mobility a person has with their fingers, very little dry anything to start the fire with and its dark and they are freezing so not only is the mobility in their fingers greatly reduced, so is the body.

I wonder if the tent was placed there so the stagers could guarantee that it was found, along with everything else and I am not convinced yet that they could have carried the tent on their backs. All I can see is one photo in the official archives of them with the tent set up. Am I missing something? I know people have posted a tent used before and said it was that one but I can only see one photo of this group using it

[tenne]

I don't know either tenne but it does fit with what we know. There were raised foot prints. The thickness of the layers would change constantly over the season. Freezing, thawing a bit, dry snow, wind and snow , wet snow and all the combinations . As you say, like a layer cake. They did dig a trench for the tent and if more snow fell during the time in the tent, a slab of snow sliding on a hard layer just may be enough to make them think worse. Once the first bit slides it makes everything above have the possibility to slide.

It's all about how they perceived the danger. They may not of been certain where they pitched the tent as the photos show poor visibility .If it was day time and good visibility they might have laughed and saw that they were in no immediate danger but if it was night, poor visibility and the first bit has collapsed the tent and more keeps sliding , not a lot but enough to make you not know, you must make a choice to move somewhere.

With their experience , they will have realised they cut in to a slope. Do you stay ? Or do you go?.

Well, all I know is with avalanche training here, you don't go down the slope to avoid an avalanche, you go sideways to cut across. Would they go down hill single file walking if they were concerned about their safety?

[tenne]

To sum up at this point, striking matches in frigid conditions with mittens is failure prone, though someone claims to be able to achieve it.

I just want to clarify in case you missed it, I tried with both bare hands and thick gloves. I went back out after my hands warmed up to try with the gloves. Its a good thing my life didn't depend on it because I couldn't get a match to light and I used the big wooden ones, although I don't know if they are the same as what was used in 1959

[Ziljoe]

Tenne, if my understanding is correct, they may have moved down the slope because it was gentle, I think if they were to side ways they would have to go up ?. I also think the foot prints weren't in single file but side by side. If the slab slide happened around their tent they might have thought it the safest option to walk away from it, as walking side ways( in their mind)  might trigger more slides. There are lots of variables , was there wind at that time, was it dark. All these factors also add to the being able to start a fire. It makes sense to get to the ceder for fire wood. This suggests some sort of visibility , even if it's just silhouettes against the sky.

Having looked into wind slabs more, this may have been the problem. They said the wind was like a jet plane in their diary. This was the day before I think. It may not have being snowing but it's when the wind blows the fallen snow from one slope over to the other. This what makes the fluffy pillow blankets of snow, usually deeper higher up the mountain at the ridges. It's this snow that lies on top of the ice or harder layer. With temperature change it can become more unstable. So , perhaps, going side ways may have concerned them to trigger more. I'm no expert on snow....

But I think it would be possible to start a fire with good knowledge.

[Ziljoe]

The hikers absolutely knew how to make fires and could make them. The question is could they make them at night, in the cold, at night, under those conditions? their fingers are freezing, which quickly reduces how much mobility a person has with their fingers, very little dry anything to start the fire with and its dark and they are freezing so not only is the mobility in their fingers greatly reduced, so is the body.

I wonder if the tent was placed there so the stagers could guarantee that it was found, along with everything else and I am not convinced yet that they could have carried the tent on their backs. All I can see is one photo in the official archives of them with the tent set up. Am I missing something? I know people have posted a tent used before and said it was that one but I can only see one photo of this group using it

There are many pictures of the same tent or kind of tent being used in the tourism but I know by experience that canvas tents are heavy . Given all the other food, clothing and equipment , it seems like extremely hard work.