Fall from tree

[Loose}{Cannon]

No body no crime? 

[GlennM]

The lack of facts is also a fact.

[Missi]

The lack of facts is also a fact.

You're right there. And said fact of lacking facts brings me to one of two possibilities:
A There was an involvement of someone or maybe a group of people. They tried to cover up what has happened.
B The investigation was one of the worst I've ever heard of.

[GlennM]

The lack of facts is also a fact.

You're right there. And said fact of lacking facts brings me to one of two possibilities:
A There was an involvement of someone or maybe a group of people. They tried to cover up what has happened.
B The investigation was one of the worst I've ever heard of.

A. Means, motive and opportunity.
B. It certainly has not weathered well.

[Missi]

The lack of facts is also a fact.

You're right there. And said fact of lacking facts brings me to one of two possibilities:
A There was an involvement of someone or maybe a group of people. They tried to cover up what has happened.
B The investigation was one of the worst I've ever heard of.

A. Means, motive and opportunity.
B. It certainly has not weathered well.

Actually, I believe it's a mixture of both. I find Teddy's theory is pretty convincing.
A The motive is, the leading people of the area were afraid, that the death of the hikers was not completely due to natural circumstances, but there was an interference by the prospecting group. That leads to the fear of being held accountable and - as happened to others - being punished. Nobody wants to be punished, plus they all had families, they wanted to protect (at least from ending up without a father to provide money and therefore food).
The opportunity arises because they found the dead first or at least some of them. Customs and regulations allow for a silent "investigation" that was supposed to lead to the conclusion the hikers were frozen and a burying in Ivdel. It was common and no one would have suspected anything. If not the hikers had been registered as missed before they could find everyone, making it necessary to stage the scene in order to cover up all intervention up to this point.
The means were largely the structures of the time being, the size of the USSR and therefore the amount of different offices, committees and responsible people.
They were lucky, that the investigation was such a mess. Or maybe it wasn't luck in the first place, but it became that messy because of their interference.

I find it hard to explain A without B. It's easier the other way around.

[Почемучка]

B The investigation was one of the worst I've ever heard of.

Вы имеете неверное представление, поскольку не смотрели - как расследовались другие дела в то время. Вы ничего и ни с чем не сравнивали. На то чтоб Вас убедить - недостаточно 2,5 минут что я имею на пост. Например, катастрофа вертолета Гладырева - тоже в части расследования имеет недостатки. А там - был Драпкин Л.Я.

You have the wrong idea, because you did not look at how other cases were being investigated at that time. You haven't compared anything to anything. In order to convince you, 2.5 minutes is not enough that I have for a post. For example, the crash of Gladyrev's helicopter also has shortcomings in terms of investigation. And there was Drapkin L.Ya.

[Missi]

B The investigation was one of the worst I've ever heard of.

Вы имеете неверное представление, поскольку не смотрели - как расследовались другие дела в то время. Вы ничего и ни с чем не сравнивали. На то чтоб Вас убедить - недостаточно 2,5 минут что я имею на пост. Например, катастрофа вертолета Гладырева - тоже в части расследования имеет недостатки. А там - был Драпкин Л.Я.

You have the wrong idea, because you did not look at how other cases were being investigated at that time. You haven't compared anything to anything. In order to convince you, 2.5 minutes is not enough that I have for a post. For example, the crash of Gladyrev's helicopter also has shortcomings in terms of investigation. And there was Drapkin L.Ya.

You want to say, that investigations in the USSR were always or almost always as bad? Wow, you're right, I wouldn't have thought that and I have no other cases in the USSR to compare with. I compare with those I know, which are based in the western countries.
Nevertheless, it's still one of the worst investigations I came to know...

[anna_pycckux]

You want to say, that investigations in the USSR were always or almost always as bad? Wow, you're right, I wouldn't have thought that and I have no other cases in the USSR to compare with. I compare with those I know, which are based in the western countries.
Nevertheless, it's still one of the worst investigations I came to know...

Честным было расследование преступления или фальшивым – зависело от заинтересованности власти КПСС. Если власти было выгодно утаивать и фальсифицировать дело – прокуроры и следовали выполняли команду партийцев. Так было с делом дятловцев. Имеются документы и свидетельства того, что власть контролировала дело, принуждала прокуроров фальсифицировать расследование и вела следствие в нужном направлении. Во времена власти КПСС – все структуры были в ее полном подчинении.
Если партийцы действительно хотели наказания преступников – то следовали добросовестно (а порой и рискуя своей жизнью) раскрывали дело и преступники были наказаны по суду. Как это было с реальной бандой убийц и грабителей «Черная кошка» и с бандой Леньки Пантелеева. Эта банда держала в страхе весь Петроград. И даже когда Ленька был застрелен чекистом – народ не верил и продолжал бояться. Тогда власти приказали выставить труп Леньки на всеобщее обозрение в морге Обуховской больницы. Есть и другие примеры честных расследований и поимки преступников, но, повторюсь, только в том случае, если власть приказывала поймать и наказать.

Whether the investigation of the crime was honest or fake depended on the interest of the CPSU authorities. If it was profitable for the authorities to conceal and falsify the case, the prosecutors followed the command of the party members. So it was with the Dyatlovtsev case. There are documents and evidence that the authorities controlled the case, forced prosecutors to falsify the investigation and conducted the investigation in the right direction. At the time of the power of the CPSU – all structures were in its complete subordination.
If the party members really wanted to punish the criminals, they followed the case in good faith (and sometimes risking their lives) and the criminals were punished by the court. As it was with the real gang of murderers and robbers "Black Cat" and with the gang of Lenka Panteleev. This gang kept the whole of Petrograd in fear. And even when Lenka was shot by a security officer, the people did not believe and continued to be afraid. Then the authorities ordered to put Lenka's corpse on public display in the morgue of the Obukhov hospital. There are other examples of honest investigations and the capture of criminals, but, again, only if the authorities ordered to catch and punish.

[Почемучка]

You want to say, that investigations in the USSR were always or almost always as bad? Wow, you're right, I wouldn't have thought that and I have no other cases in the USSR to compare with. I compare with those I know, which are based in the western countries.
Nevertheless, it's still one of the worst investigations I came to know...

Небрежности Вы обнаружите - даже если пойдете с свой архив и там попросите дать Вам хоть одно дело по расследованию.
Мне пришлось до Вас - писать статью. Именно под Ваш вопрос. Там еще немного собрано - мы только начали мутить эту воду на свой вкус и цвет.
You will find negligence - even if you go to your archive and ask there to give you at least one investigation case.
I had to write an article before you. Just for your question.
There is still a little collected - we have just begun to muddy this water to our taste and color.
http://dyatlovpass1.ru/viewtopic.php?id=17#p43

[Missi]

Thanks for the invitation, but I can't read russian (as of yet), so it'd be too difficult for me.

[Почемучка]

Thanks for the invitation, but I can't read russian (as of yet), so it'd be too difficult for me.

У меня здесь всего 2,5 минуты - я даже не успеваю исправить орфографические ошибки.
Тем не менее - даже при отсутствии у Вас навыком общения с русским языком - Вы можете в свободную минуту: почитать то что я привожу в качестве примера.
Пример - гибель летчика, который тоже участвовал в поисках группы Дятлова.
У нас все по-честному. Я вынуждена читать все из иностранного что мне приводят как аргументы. Я в библиотеке Дрездена !!! - находила и скачивала книгу по истории коммунистической партии Германии. Читала и рассматривала иллюстрации. Это мне нужно было чтоб опровергнуть версию одного из русских авторов. Он писал что в той книге - есть доказательства его версии.
Эх, как я почитала эту книгу на немецком... Благо в школе учили этот язык. Нет ничего - невозможного.

I have only 2.5 minutes here - I don't even have time to correct spelling errors.
Nevertheless - even if you do not have the ability to communicate with the Russian language - you can in your spare time: read what I give as an example.
An example is the death of a pilot who also participated in the search for the Dyatlov group.

We are all fair. I am forced to read everything from a foreign language that is given to me as arguments. I'm in the Dresden library!!! - found and downloaded a book on the history of the Communist Party of Germany. Read and look at illustrations. I needed this to refute the version of one of the Russian authors. He wrote that in that book - there is evidence of his version.
Oh, how I read this book in German ... Fortunately, this language was taught at school. Nothing is impossible.

[anna_pycckux]

We are all fair. I am forced to read everything from a foreign language that is given to me as arguments. I'm in the Dresden library!!! - found and downloaded a book on the history of the Communist Party of Germany. Read and look at illustrations. I needed this to refute the version of one of the Russian authors. He wrote that in that book - there is evidence of his version.
Oh, how I read this book in German ... Fortunately, this language was taught at school. Nothing is impossible.

Почемучка продолжает уводить в сторону от темы. Ее задача - увести в  тупик, изгадить тему.
Почемучка continues to lead away from the topic. Her task is to lead to a dead end, to spoil the topic.

[anna_pycckux]

Мне пришлось до Вас - писать статью. Именно под Ваш вопрос. Там еще немного собрано - мы только начали мутить эту воду на свой вкус и цвет.
There is still a little collected - we have just begun to muddy this water to our taste and color.

Почемучка, может хватит "мутить воду на свой вкус и цвет"??

Почемучка, don't you stop "muddying the water to your taste and color"??

[Missi]

Thanks for the invitation, but I can't read russian (as of yet), so it'd be too difficult for me.

У меня здесь всего 2,5 минуты - я даже не успеваю исправить орфографические ошибки.
Тем не менее - даже при отсутствии у Вас навыком общения с русским языком - Вы можете в свободную минуту: почитать то что я привожу в качестве примера.
Пример - гибель летчика, который тоже участвовал в поисках группы Дятлова.
У нас все по-честному. Я вынуждена читать все из иностранного что мне приводят как аргументы. Я в библиотеке Дрездена !!! - находила и скачивала книгу по истории коммунистической партии Германии. Читала и рассматривала иллюстрации. Это мне нужно было чтоб опровергнуть версию одного из русских авторов. Он писал что в той книге - есть доказательства его версии.
Эх, как я почитала эту книгу на немецком... Благо в школе учили этот язык. Нет ничего - невозможного.

I have only 2.5 minutes here - I don't even have time to correct spelling errors.
Nevertheless - even if you do not have the ability to communicate with the Russian language - you can in your spare time: read what I give as an example.
An example is the death of a pilot who also participated in the search for the Dyatlov group.

We are all fair. I am forced to read everything from a foreign language that is given to me as arguments. I'm in the Dresden library!!! - found and downloaded a book on the history of the Communist Party of Germany. Read and look at illustrations. I needed this to refute the version of one of the Russian authors. He wrote that in that book - there is evidence of his version.
Oh, how I read this book in German ... Fortunately, this language was taught at school. Nothing is impossible.

I'd be completely willing to try to read in French, which I learned at school. Even Swedish, which I started learning on my own some years ago. But in Russian I only read the letters by now and don't know any words. It will take me quite some time, to be able to really understand something. And I plainly refuse to skip the Swedish for learning Russian just now.

[Почемучка]

I'd be completely willing to try to read in French, which I learned at school. Even Swedish, which I started learning on my own some years ago. But in Russian I only read the letters by now and don't know any words. It will take me quite some time, to be able to really understand something. And I plainly refuse to skip the Swedish for learning Russian just now.

Я могу приколоться и в пику здешнему анголоязычному предпочтению/давлению - перевести там на немецкий язык.
Я там могу - редактировать свой пост хоть до моркорвкиного заговенья.
А давайте - пошпрехаем. Sprechen Sie deutsch...Ведь я осилила книгу на 700 страниц о компартии Германии.

I can joke and in defiance of the local English-speaking preference / pressure - translate there into German.
I can edit my post there, even to Morkorvkin's spell.
And let's go ahead. Sprechen Sie deutsch...After all, I mastered a book of 700 pages about the Communist Party of Germany.

[Почемучка]

And I plainly refuse to skip the Swedish for learning Russian just now.

Смотрите - какую книгу я читала. Шрифт - просто сказка. Вы возможно - о существовании такой и не знаете.
Словарь мне нужен был - только раз семь.
See what book I read. The font is just fabulous. You may not even be aware of the existence of such a thing.
I needed a dictionary - only seven times.

[Missi]

I'm impressed!

[Почемучка]

I'm impressed!

А то ж. Это - я еще за Гёте в подлиннике не бралась...

And then. This is - I have not taken Goethe in the original yet ...

[Missi]

Goethe is even for us Germans not easy to understand. It's old language and much room for interpretation.

[Почемучка]

Goethe is even for us Germans not easy to understand. It's old language and much room for interpretation.

Да, получается - он очень теперь русский автор. Можно перечитать немецкий со смыслом сто тысяч оттенков. Супер. Повезло Германии.
Такие древние мосты - на Россию.

Yes, it turns out - he is now a very Russian author. You can reread German with the meaning of a hundred thousand shades. Super. Lucky Germany.
Such ancient bridges - to Russia.

[GlennM]

You both have strayed far from the topic. This is about a fall from a tree. Can you explain or defend the idea of someone climbing a tree in winter? Is there a single defensible reason? Do you believe any of the injuries the hikers had were tree related?

In another vein, Teddies hypothesis addresses a lot of the mystery including means, motive and opportunity. The major disconnect is where the tent actually was found. There would be no need to relocate it, and there would certainly be no reason to climb an adjacent tree after one had just crushed your tent.The former only raises unnecessary questions, the latter  would be simply childish behavior.

[anna_pycckux]

You both have strayed far from the topic. This is about a fall from a tree. Can you explain or defend the idea of someone climbing a tree in winter? Is there a single defensible reason? Do you believe any of the injuries the hikers had were tree related?

According to my version, tourists climbed a tree to escape from the dogs of the liquidators. On the posthumous photos of tourists, on their faces and hands - there are traces of jaws and claws of dogs.

I'm familiar with Teddy's version, but not from the book. I have a lot of questions for Theodora:
1. If a tree fell from a geological explosion, then there must be many fallen trees, not one. The search engines did not notice completely fallen trees in the area. And there was no crater from the explosion. Why did the geologists not immediately call a helicopter with medics on the radio?
2. If there was only one fallen tree, then why would geologists take the blame for this one fallen tree?
3. Why drag the tent? They would have photographed the tree that fell on the tent, handed it over to the investigators. The party organs would not have dealt with this matter.... And even the funeral would be at the expense of the parents, but not on party money. (maybe geologists would help a little)........
I respect Theodora, her wonderful forum. I consider her version to be original, but unsubstantiated.

[GlennM]

Thank you Anna for a thoughtful reply. I believe that if geologists were doing government business,they should have nothing to fear. Accidents happen. Trees do fall, but who will choose to place their camp by an unhealthy tree? I would expect tree debris on the tent and human blood too. I do not think the three hikers found going toward the tent on 1079 would have a reason to do so if there was no tent there until they died. Yes, a state funded funeral for a personal tragedy seems add, unless that was a government guarantee for communists.

If a tree fell on the tourists, I can think of no acceptable reason why any,one would climb up a tree thereafter. I would think survivors would gather food and bandages, go to the labaz and then home. The would go anywhere, but not back to an empty spot on a bare mountain side.

[Почемучка]

You both have strayed far from the topic. This is about a fall from a tree. Can you explain or defend the idea of someone climbing a tree in winter? Is there a single defensible reason? Do you believe any of the injuries the hikers had were tree related?

In another vein, Teddies hypothesis addresses a lot of the mystery including means, motive and opportunity. The major disconnect is where the tent actually was found. There would be no need to relocate it, and there would certainly be no reason to climb an adjacent tree after one had just crushed your tent.The former only raises unnecessary questions, the latter  would be simply childish behavior.

Мне давать пояснения - в шестой раз? Они есть в этой теме. Кое-кто даже их наконец-то увидел, правда с пятого разу. Missi - был этим внимательным читателем. Поэтому пока все нас догоняют - мы беседуем о Гёте.

Should I give an explanation - for the sixth time? They are in this thread. Some even finally saw them, though from the fifth time. Missi - was this attentive reader. Therefore, while everyone is catching up with us, we are talking about Goethe.

[Почемучка]

You both have strayed far from the topic.

А - поцеловать почитать?
A - kiss read?
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1322.90
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1322.msg21171#msg21171
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1322.msg21175#msg21175

[Missi]

You both have strayed far from the topic. This is about a fall from a tree. Can you explain or defend the idea of someone climbing a tree in winter? Is there a single defensible reason? Do you believe any of the injuries the hikers had were tree related?

In another vein, Teddies hypothesis addresses a lot of the mystery including means, motive and opportunity. The major disconnect is where the tent actually was found. There would be no need to relocate it, and there would certainly be no reason to climb an adjacent tree after one had just crushed your tent.The former only raises unnecessary questions, the latter  would be simply childish behavior.

Yes, you're right, I'm sorry.
I don't think they did climb the tree. As far as I remember, there is no evidence that proves they did. Traces of wood and needles and some injuries can as well be attributed to a tree falling on them. I'm with Teddy on this one.
There would be a reason in relocating the tent, if you wanted to keep the place of the accident secret in order to not arise questions. And no, no tree climbing.

You both have strayed far from the topic. This is about a fall from a tree. Can you explain or defend the idea of someone climbing a tree in winter? Is there a single defensible reason? Do you believe any of the injuries the hikers had were tree related?

According to my version, tourists climbed a tree to escape from the dogs of the liquidators. On the posthumous photos of tourists, on their faces and hands - there are traces of jaws and claws of dogs.

I'm familiar with Teddy's version, but not from the book. I have a lot of questions for Theodora:
1. If a tree fell from a geological explosion, then there must be many fallen trees, not one. The search engines did not notice completely fallen trees in the area. And there was no crater from the explosion. Why did the geologists not immediately call a helicopter with medics on the radio?
2. If there was only one fallen tree, then why would geologists take the blame for this one fallen tree?
3. Why drag the tent? They would have photographed the tree that fell on the tent, handed it over to the investigators. The party organs would not have dealt with this matter.... And even the funeral would be at the expense of the parents, but not on party money. (maybe geologists would help a little)........
I respect Theodora, her wonderful forum. I consider her version to be original, but unsubstantiated.

1. As much as I understood it, it was not an explosion causing the tree to fall, but the effect of wind. We know, that there are high winds in the area. The corpses were not found immediately, but only some time later.
2. You often talk about the atmosphere at the time, the influence of Stalin still kinda present. There are cases of people being send to gulags for reasons much smaller (or thought up). Teddy especially mentions an example of a hero of war who was stripped of his medals and titles and send to prison, because some of "his" workers died in a fire accidentally. I'd not be surprised if there were people fearing for their lives when while working in the area, some tourists were killed by a tree.
3. The fear of being made the culprits for the death. I find that plausible.

Thank you Anna for a thoughtful reply. I believe that if geologists were doing government business,they should have nothing to fear. Accidents happen. Trees do fall, but who will choose to place their camp by an unhealthy tree? I would expect tree debris on the tent and human blood too. I do not think the three hikers found going toward the tent on 1079 would have a reason to do so if there was no tent there until they died. Yes, a state funded funeral for a personal tragedy seems add, unless that was a government guarantee for communists.

If a tree fell on the tourists, I can think of no acceptable reason why any,one would climb up a tree thereafter. I would think survivors would gather food and bandages, go to the labaz and then home. The would go anywhere, but not back to an empty spot on a bare mountain side.

The tree was not unhealthy. The geologists chopped trees. And the injuries were mostly internally. Scratches might not have bled at all or small traces were left in blankets. Did anyone check the blankets for blood?
The diaries mention the hikers saw the planes in the area, used by the geologists' expedition. Those, who wanted to go on the mountain tried to do so, to catch the attention of the pilots to get help. They didn't make it, unfortunately.
Isn't there a report from some pilot who saw shapes like bodies on the slope around Feb 2nd? Maybe I'm remembering wrong...

[Почемучка]

Объясните мне хоть кто-нибудь - почему нельзя упасть с дерева
1) если лезешь на него с целью обломать ветки, которые нависают над костром
2) с этих нависших веток тающий снег - заливает костер
3) этот костер с таким трудом создан и он важен

Ау, люди, где вы?

Explain to me at least someone - why you can not fall from a tree
1) if you climb on it in order to break off the branches that hang over the fire
2) melting snow from these overhanging branches - floods the fire
3) this fire was created with such difficulty and it is important

Hey people, where are you?

[eurocentric]

What type of injuries do you suppose can result from a fall like this…. hitting multiple branches on the way down and god knows what on the ground?

Are we certain this didn’t happen? If so, is it possible an injured person was moved to the ravine? 

I could have made this video an hour long but I’ll spare you the cringe….  lol.

I think we men sometimes need to be fitted with airbags between our legs.

I'm not sure the DPI fractures are explained by falling from the cedar, but instead of Zina being whacked with a stick by an attacker, as some would have it, I can easily imagine her falling and hitting her side on a lower branch, which saves her from more serious injury hitting the ground but delivers a 'baton' bruise. And Igor, rather than being hung upside down by his ankles, or bound by them while his wrists were curiously left free, might cross his legs for grip around a tree trunk or when crawling along branches and that created his pressure marks.

To have cold people with inadequate footwear and no gloves, losing the feeling in their digits, at night, climbing trees with the tops of branches covered in snow or ice - it'd be pretty remarkable if nobody slipped at all.

[GlennM]

Just so all understand that this whole tree climbing line of inquiry is imaginative. It is investigative dead wood.

What we are told is that this cedar was both known and used previously by Mansi hunters. They would have a far better reason and gear to use the tree for animal spotting and procuring branches for an outdoor fire making than the DP9.

There is little, if any practical reason for half frozen kids to attempt to climb up slick branches to get some favorable point of view. I mean, they already know the way back!

I know! But what do hunters ( assasins) do when the turkey sticks its head out?