Theory of DP group killed by false denunciation

[anna_pycckux]

Many people have died in the world because of false denunciations. Because of a false denunciation, Jesus Christ was crucified. Why does anyone believe false denunciations??

[anna_pycckux]

Группа Дятлова погибла по ложному доносу.
Dyatlov's group died on a false denunciation

[GlennM]

[quote author=Missi
How dense was the population of Russia in those days? Would it be possible without taking great chances, to ski the way to a border? Wouldn't they have to pass cities?

They were probably of normal intelligence. Some of our contemporaries on the forum, I'm not as sure.

That was meant as a joke, right? In that case: 
[/quote]

Yup!

[anna_pycckux]

How dense was the population of Russia in those days? Would it be possible without taking great chances, to ski the way to a border? Wouldn't they have to pass cities?

Не пришлось бы... это все ваши фантазии и фантазии глупых партийных боссов.
No. ...it's all your fantasies and the fantasies of stupid party bosses.

[Ziljoe]

anna_pycckux

You say Yuri Yudin said this below. What was the full sentence?.

There are serious false denunciations here: they want to escape abroad, this group is "spies and the devil knows what" (words of Yuri Yudin).

Also, would the KGB not ask questions of the informer and double check the facts? Would they not do surveillance of the group and contacts?

I understand students have been part of change and political movements in all countries over the decade's but there's a lot of hiking taking place in Russia at the time with positive happy photos. There are photos of normal life and the diaries of love and ambition . Singing in railway stations, being told off by the transport police, telling stories to children of their adventure's . My point is, they were not hiding in the shadows , surly if people were following them they would see no sign of an alleged escape and use common sense?

[Missi]

How dense was the population of Russia in those days? Would it be possible without taking great chances, to ski the way to a border? Wouldn't they have to pass cities?

Не пришлось бы... это все ваши фантазии и фантазии глупых партийных боссов.
No. ...it's all your fantasies and the fantasies of stupid party bosses.

What exactly is my fantasy? I don't get the context, sorry.

[anna_pycckux]

Also, would the KGB not ask questions of the informer and double check the facts? Would they not do surveillance of the group and contacts? .......surly if people were following them they would see no sign of an alleged escape and use common sense?

Вы ждете от КГБ здравый смысл? Напрасно! они лишь выполняли волю КПСС.
Do you expect common sense from the KGB? In vain! they were only fulfilling the will of the CPSS.

[anna_pycckux]

What exactly is my fantasy? I don't get the context, sorry.

простите, ничем не могу вам помочь....
I'm sorry, but I can't help you....

[Ziljoe]

anna_pycckux

You say Yuri Yudin said this below. What was the full sentence?.

There are serious false denunciations here: they want to escape abroad, this group is "spies and the devil knows what" (words of Yuri Yudin).

Also, would the KGB not ask questions of the informer and double check the facts? Would they not do surveillance of the group and contacts?

I understand students have been part of change and political movements in all countries over the decade's but there's a lot of hiking taking place in Russia at the time with positive happy photos. There are photos of normal life and the diaries of love and ambition . Singing in railway stations, being told off by the transport police, telling stories to children of their adventure's . My point is, they were not hiding in the shadows , surly if people were following them they would see no sign of an alleged escape and use common sense?

Also, would the KGB not ask questions of the informer and double check the facts? Would they not do surveillance of the group and contacts? .......surly if people were following them they would see no sign of an alleged escape and use common sense?

Вы ждете от КГБ здравый смысл? Напрасно! они лишь выполняли волю КПСС.
Do you expect common sense from the KGB? In vain! they were only fulfilling the will of the CPSS.

Above is my full quote. As for KGB , I don't think they were that stupid that they would kill on mass without questioning first. There has to be a modicum of truth before you go liquidising?.

[anna_pycckux]

Above is my full quote. As for KGB , I don't think they were that stupid that they would kill on mass without questioning first. There has to be a modicum of truth before you go liquidising?.

КГБ выполняли приказы КПСС без обсуждения. Существует архивный документ, называется протокол 200, который подтверждает это. Жаль, но сейчас на форуме нет возможности загрузить фото. Есть так же видео-документ на русском языке. Если вас интересует - дам ссылку.

The KGB carried out the orders of the CPSU without discussion. There is an archival document called Protocol 200 that confirms this. It's a pity, but now there is no way to upload photos to the forum. There is also a video document in Russian. If you are interested, I will give you a link.

[Ziljoe]

Above is my full quote. As for KGB , I don't think they were that stupid that they would kill on mass without questioning first. There has to be a modicum of truth before you go liquidising?.

КГБ выполняли приказы КПСС без обсуждения. Существует архивный документ, называется протокол 200, который подтверждает это. Жаль, но сейчас на форуме нет возможности загрузить фото. Есть так же видео-документ на русском языке. Если вас интересует - дам ссылку.

The KGB carried out the orders of the CPSU without discussion. There is an archival document called Protocol 200 that confirms this. It's a pity, but now there is no way to upload photos to the forum. There is also a video document in Russian. If you are interested, I will give you a link.

If it's in English or can be subtitles. Why can't bwe upload photos?  Surly the cpsu would want facts? Or at least integration. ?

Actually sounds a great system , I could make accusations against anyone and the cpsu tells the KGB to liquidate . We need this in the west.

[GlennM]

Perhaps the Russian goons did as they were bid, just not on 1079. This is just a fantasy to sell books to gullible book club members.

[anna_pycckux]

Actually sounds a great system , I could make accusations against anyone and the cpsu tells the KGB to liquidate . We need this in the west.

Да, так и было бы, если б вы были в высоком руководстве КПСС и жили в середине 20 века.
Yes, it would be so if you were in the top leadership of the CPSU and lived in the middle of the 20th century.

[anna_pycckux]

Perhaps the Russian goons did as they were bid, just not on 1079. This is just a fantasy to sell books to gullible book club members.

тысячи и тысячи невинных людей гибли в СССР в 30-50-е годы от ложных доносов и это не фантазия. Иисус Христос погиб по ложному доносу. не знали?

thousands and thousands of innocent people died in the USSR in the 30-50s from false denunciations, and this is not a fantasy. Jesus Christ was crucified by false denunciation. didn't you know?

[Ziljoe]

Perhaps the Russian goons did as they were bid, just not on 1079. This is just a fantasy to sell books to gullible book club members.

тысячи и тысячи невинных людей гибли в СССР в 30-50-е годы от ложных доносов и это не фантазия. Иисус Христос погиб по ложному доносу. не знали?

thousands and thousands of innocent people died in the USSR in the 30-50s from false denunciations, and this is not a fantasy. Jesus Christ was crucified by false denunciation. didn't you know?

Jesus is a different concept or context. ( Although I have a soft spot for the Jesus narrative) . We can argue that Jesus needed to be denounced in order to safe human kind. Jesus has nothing to do with the dp9. Off topic. Step back from the controversy. I'm sure there's rules on the forum..

[anna_pycckux]

Jesus is a different concept or context. ( Although I have a soft spot for the Jesus narrative) . We can argue that Jesus needed to be denounced in order to safe human kind. Jesus has nothing to do with the dp9. Off topic. Step back from the controversy. I'm sure there's rules on the forum..

Речь идет о ложных доносах.
we are talking about false denunciations

[Ziljoe]

Jesus is a different concept or context. ( Although I have a soft spot for the Jesus narrative) . We can argue that Jesus needed to be denounced in order to safe human kind. Jesus has nothing to do with the dp9. Off topic. Step back from the controversy. I'm sure there's rules on the forum..

Речь идет о ложных доносах.
we are talking about false denunciations

No proof of Jesus existing. Or any denunciations. As you reference many times, fantasy.

[anna_pycckux]

No proof of Jesus existing. Or any denunciations. As you reference many times, fantasy.

Наверное мы живем на разных планетах. В России есть 306 статья Уголовного Кодекса за ложный донос.
We probably live on different planets. In Russia, there is article 306 of the Criminal Code for false denunciation.

[Ziljoe]

No proof of Jesus existing. Or any denunciations. As you reference many times, fantasy.

Наверное мы живем на разных планетах. В России есть 306 статья Уголовного Кодекса за ложный донос.
We probably live on different planets. In Russia, there is article 306 of the Criminal Code for false denunciation.

Is Jesus truth or fantasy?

[Ziljoe]

What does article306 say.....out of interest.

[anna_pycckux]

Is Jesus truth or fantasy?

Это все не по теме.
Есть в России журналистка Юлия Латынина. Она написала книгу "Иисус. Историческое расследование", в которой рассказывается и доказывается, что Иисус принадлежал к  секте террористов.
Про 306 статью узнай сам.

This is all off topic.
There is a journalist Yulia Latynina in Russia. She wrote the book "Jesus. Historical investigation", which tells and proves that Jesus belonged to a terrorist sect.
Find out about article 306 yourself.

[Ziljoe]

Is Jesus truth or fantasy?

Это все не по теме.
Есть в России журналистка Юлия Латынина. Она написала книгу "Иисус. Историческое расследование", в которой рассказывается и доказывается, что Иисус принадлежал к  секте террористов.
Про 306 статью узнай сам.

This is all off topic.
There is a journalist Yulia Latynina in Russia. She wrote the book "Jesus. Historical investigation", which tells and proves that Jesus belonged to a terrorist sect.
Find out about article 306 yourself.

You started the Jesus bit. 

No room for quoting article 306 then stating , "find it yourself" . Say what you mean, mean what you say. Stop leaving the guessing games.

You had a good point on the dp9 being accused of wanting to leave USSR. By some other people saying so. Please back it up.

[eurocentric]

I would have thought that any threat passed to a security service, in this case the KGB, would need to be considered credible, and would be assessed before any action was taken, such as flying out there to murder everyone. Otherwise nobody would ever bother hiring a hitman when they can get the State to bump someone off for them in exchange for some malicious rumours.

As others have pointed out, the hikers were in the middle of Russia, and in the dead of winter. They would need a far larger food supply than they had with them to make it north, and need rifles and snares to live off the land for such an extended trek, their daily calorie intake requirement far higher during freezing weather. It would have been easy for the KGB to check this potential out by referencing copies of their inventory and hiking plans at the UPI.

Here's a list of all known defectors from the former Eastern Block. There were only 6 defections from Russia during the whole of the 1950s, and all of those were already stationed abroad and simply didn't return. Not one single defection, across any decade, involved a student. Indeed the typical age was mid-thirties upwards; time enough to have become disenfranchised with the communist system and be prepared to kiss goodbye to all contact with your family.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Soviet_and_Eastern_Bloc_defectors

Of those who defected from behind the Iron Curtain it seemed to involve heading over water, across the Baltic, not trekking all the way Finland or Norway's narrow Northernmost tip.

Even if the KGB felt it worth checking out - let's say they were intrigued by Semyon paying to join this hike at the eleventh hour after quitting his job and telling suspicious colleagues he was off to make history - once arriving at 1079 by helicopter it should have been easy to establish their activities were legit from their diaries. And the fact they'd stored most of their food in a labaz showed an intention to return.

If the KGB decided to liquidate them then this same fate should have befell Yuri Yudin, and would-be 10th hiker Slavic Bienko, and if they were going to stage their deaths due to hypothermia they wouldn't risk a pathologist noting that Lyuda had been raped.

[Missi]

What exactly is my fantasy? I don't get the context, sorry.

простите, ничем не могу вам помочь....
I'm sorry, but I can't help you....

I'm sure you could, if you wanted to.

I asked whether it was possible to make the way from the Otorten area to the border without meeting people and raise suspicion.

You said it was my fantasy. I didn't state anything. I was asking a question. So what do you consider fantasy here?

Yes, you stated, the hikers didn't want to defect. I understood that. And I don't think they wanted that, either.

[anna_pycckux]

I asked whether it was possible to make the way from the Otorten area to the border without meeting people and raise suspicion.
You said it was my fantasy. I didn't state anything. I was asking a question. So what do you consider fantasy here?
Yes, you stated, the hikers didn't want to defect. I understood that. And I don't think they wanted that, either.

1. Все разговоры о бегстве ребят за границу - это фантазии. Эти разговоры бессмысленны. Бегство придумали враги и завистники Дятлова - стукачи и доносчики, агенты КГБ.
2. Дойти пешком из района Отортена до границы - невозможно. Если только сесть в поезд.

1. All the talk about guys running abroad is a fantasy. These conversations are meaningless. The escape was invented by Dyatlov's enemies, informants and KGB agents.
2. It is impossible to walk from the Otorten district to the border. Only by train.

[anna_pycckux]

If the KGB decided to liquidate them then this same fate should have befell Yuri Yudin, and would-be 10th hiker Slavic Bienko, and if they were going to stage their deaths due to hypothermia they wouldn't risk a pathologist noting that Lyuda had been raped.

1. повторяю: ребята никуда бежать не собирались. Эти сообщения - ЛОЖНЫЕ доносы стукачей и осведомителей КГБ. Вероятно у Дятлова было много завистников и врагов в УПИ
2. Юрий Юдин не был уничтожен, наоборот, его карьера пошла  в гору. Он получил квартиру в Соликамске и даже должность зам. мэра Соликамска. Есть вероятность, что он сам не желая того, предал ребят, сообщив их кгб точный маршрут туристов. Для того и вернулся со 2 Северного.

1. I repeat: the guys were not going to run anywhere. These reports are FALSE denunciations of informers and informants of the KGB. Probably, Dyatlov had many envious and enemies in the UPI
2. Yuri Yudin was not destroyed, on the contrary, his career went uphill. He got an apartment in Solikamsk and became deputy mayor of Solikamsk. There is a possibility that he unwittingly betrayed the guys by telling the KGB the exact route of tourists. That's why he came back from the 2nd North.

[Missi]

I asked whether it was possible to make the way from the Otorten area to the border without meeting people and raise suspicion.
You said it was my fantasy. I didn't state anything. I was asking a question. So what do you consider fantasy here?
Yes, you stated, the hikers didn't want to defect. I understood that. And I don't think they wanted that, either.

1. Все разговоры о бегстве ребят за границу - это фантазии. Эти разговоры бессмысленны. Бегство придумали враги и завистники Дятлова - стукачи и доносчики, агенты КГБ.
2. Дойти пешком из района Отортена до границы - невозможно. Если только сесть в поезд.

1. All the talk about guys running abroad is a fantasy. These conversations are meaningless. The escape was invented by Dyatlov's enemies, informants and KGB agents.
2. It is impossible to walk from the Otorten district to the border. Only by train.

Ah, now I understand. Thanks for clarifying.

I'm wondering:
We both agree, that it is impossible to escape the USSR when starting around Otorten. I'm quite sure most people in the USSR would agree as well. That means, those denunciations are untenable. It's obvious, that they are lies.
So why, instead of keeping with the story of the hikers trying to leave the country, not just kill them and let the bodies disappear? Where's the difference to telling a story, nobody really believes anyway?

[anna_pycckux]

I'm wondering:
We both agree, that it is impossible to escape the USSR when starting around Otorten. I'm quite sure most people in the USSR would agree as well. That means, those denunciations are untenable. It's obvious, that they are lies.
So why, instead of keeping with the story of the hikers trying to leave the country, not just kill them and let the bodies disappear? Where's the difference to telling a story, nobody really believes anyway?

Очень трудно иностранцам понять политику СССР того времени.
1. Система сохранялась посредством слежкой за народом. Любое подозрение на оппозицию - сурово пресекалось.
2. Власть охранялась при помощи КГБ. КГБ подключали к работе тысячи осведомителей.
3. В нашем случае на Дятлова и его друзей враги и завистники писали доносы, что они антисоветчики и шпионы. За это в СССР была смертная казнь. Судить 9 молодых людей - значит поднять шум.. Суд мог обернуться осуждением политики КПСС.
4. Убить в походе и спрятать 9 тел - по-тихому никак бы не получилось. У всех ребят была многочисленная, образованная родня. Сфальсифицировать гибель сразу всех от замерзания по вине самих туристов - это казалось прекрасным для кгб  вариантом. Но не все прошло гладко.

1. The system in the USSR was maintained by monitoring people. Any suspicions of the opposition were brutally suppressed.
2. The power was guarded with the help of the KGB. Thousands of informants were involved in the work of the KGB.
3. In our case, enemies and envious people wrote denunciations of Dyatlov and his friends that they were anti-Soviets and spies. For this, the USSR had the death penalty. Judging 9 young people means making a fuss.. The trial may turn into a condemnation of the CPSU policy.
4. To kill in a campaign and hide 9 bodies - it would not work quietly in any way. All the children had many educated relatives. To stage the death of everyone at once from freezing due to the fault of the tourists themselves - it seemed to the KGB an excellent option. But not everything went smoothly.
на скриншоте интервью Ю ЮДина, в котором он рассказывает о сборе компромата на Дятлова и его друзей.
in the screenshot of the interview Yu . Yudin, in which he talks about collecting compromising material on Dyatlov and his friends.

[Ziljoe]

Hi anna_pycckux

This what I've managed to translate from the first half of the text you present in your photo( in bold). Is this taken from the transcript of the video? Is it verified ?context is everything and is the whole transcript available?

Let's just say, the only witness of all times and peoples."

Yudin: “Yes, yes, this is all possible and more, as far as I am concerned. I was told by an acquaintance who ... compromising evidence was collected there. Compromising evidence was collected even before it officially became known that the group had disappeared there. Since the case was opened immediately upon the fact of the tragedy, all at once, it was instantly revealed. Well, everyone already knows about it. Therefore, they worked as they should, that we were all spies there, that we were there, the devil knows what, and collected compromising evidence. "Meeting through the trade union committee of our institute. This is a bunch of people, they were dumbfounded, surprised why they were collecting compromising evidence on everyone. And they rejected everything else. And they told me that we defended you there so much that God forbid. But I didn’t knew.

What are other forum members thoughts on this evidence?

[Ziljoe]

Second bit of photo. @teddy , do we have any of this on dyatlovpass archives? In english.

Navig: There, where was it protected?

Yudin: Yes, at the institute, when I was studying. Well, I was a student. Here they are, they knew everything there, and all this business, including the interrogation of these witnesses ... "(NoOO" INTERNET CENTER of the Dyatlov tragedy, 2008. Text of the conversation "CENTER for civil investigation of the Dyatlov tragedy", NAVIG with Yudin Yu. in the case of Dyatlovtsev 01.02.2008)

It was Yu. Yudin who first spoke about what he was told in the trade union committee of the institute (evaluate the right move: I am talking about what I did not give a subscription to), when he first appeared in class after the holidays.

Yuri Efimovich reported that people in civilian clothes came to the trade union committee of the institute and began to ask about the students, members of I. Dyatlov's group, collected compromising evidence, whether they were politically reliable. The employees demanded characteristics for these members of the group (Dyatlova, Kolmogorov. Yudina, Doroshenko, Dubinina. Kolevatova) Let's omit the lyrics of those who told Yuri Efimovich about the event, they say, we didn’t say anything bad about you. But the characteristics were given and are still now in one of the KGB cases about the Dyatlov group, which, I hope, are still stored in the archives. I did not make a reservation about the death of the Dyatlov group; there are at least two cases opened in different cities and with different wording.