Evidence of other parties

[Ziljoe]

And I am sorry that after 8 years, you are tired and jaded.

I wish you weren't. You have a keen old brain and I'd like to make use of it.

Bless you. It's just all been discussed. Unless someone at the time comes out with hard evidence or direct context it will remain the same. The lack of anyone involved coming forward by now only adds to the fact that the government were not involved. If all the events can be argued that it happened under a natural occurrence, which I believe they can, then that's what we are left with. Just need to cross t's and dot the I's....

[amashilu]

By the way, in response to your thinly disguised suggestion that "new members" read the old posts ... I have read through all the old posts on this forum.    Yup, all 30 pages. For example, I saw how many times MDGross tried to discuss the flashlight but how those conversations didn't get much traction, though they should have. That is one thing that inspired me to bring it up now and fold it into a larger topic of "all" the possible evidence of outsiders being present. Looking for traction in an already-trampled field.

[Ziljoe]

By the way, I have read through all the old posts on this forum.    yup, all 30 pages. I saw, for example, how many times MDGross tried to bring up the flashlight, but the resulting conversations did not seem to get much traction. This is one of the things that inspired me to try to gather all the apparent evidence of other people being present ... Looking for traction in an already well-trampled field.

No probs. The speculation that I can recall is.

1) left at the entrance of tent for pee breaks, may have fallen down on collapse of tent.

2) left there when exiting the tent from snow collapse.

3) potentially left there by first searchers,

4)outsiders in some capacity.

5) that it was Igor's actual torch.

It may have been buried and exposed several times over the 3 weeks. There is argument that the batteries would still work after 3 weeks irrelevant of the cold( I'm sure it's in this forum) . I am no expert on 1950's batteries , USSR or west...

[amashilu]

And what happens when you apply your own logic?
Mine says, if it was left there by one of the hikers 3 weeks ago, it should have at least SOME snow on it, and the battery would most likely be dead. (We used to bring our car battery inside at night and put it back in the morning or it wouldn't start. Three weeks and there would be no hope of resurrection!)

[GlennM]

Just for the sake of clarification,,just exactly where was the alleged flashlight with regards to the tent? Was,it on the upright tent poles, laid on top of the collapsed middle, or on the ground above or below the tent?  Was it pointing upslope or,downslope? Was it it secured with a lanyard?  Was it painted in Russian military colors or was it unpainted metal? Were the batteries civilian or military issue?

Of significance is that if the flashlight was found on the snow pile in the middle of the collapsed tent, then the slab slip proceeded the placement of the light. Too, it borders on the absurd to think nine people who just cut their way out of a tent at night after the slide would leave it there if they were headed for the woods, they would carry it for illumination! Too we must recall that as soon as the tent was found, human impact contaminated the scene.However, if the light was on a lanyard on a tent pole then it may safely be assumed it was there for the user to return to the tent after evacuating bladder and bowel a discrete distance away. 

[anna_pycckux]

There's nothing to refute . Your context is all over the place. To run your model of thinking to the extreme, they could have been all raped and put there pants back on. Maybe the Yuri's torn trousers ment they were were raped. Talk sense !!!

Speak sensibly! I don't understand your logic! Do you really think that after the rape, the underwear will not be torn? Naturally, underwear had to be changed when washing corpses in the morgue. Lyudmila was dressed absurdly in what was found in the Gulag. And this proves the presence of outsiders. We think too straightforwardly.

[Ziljoe]

There's nothing to refute . Your context is all over the place. To run your model of thinking to the extreme, they could have been all raped and put there pants back on. Maybe the Yuri's torn trousers ment they were were raped. Talk sense !!!

Speak sensibly! I don't understand your logic! Do you really think that after the rape, the underwear will not be torn? Naturally, underwear had to be changed when washing corpses in the morgue. Lyudmila was dressed absurdly in what was found in the Gulag. And this proves the presence of outsiders. We think too straightforwardly.

Case solved then,they were liquidated by the liquidators from the allegations from wanting to leave the country which was unfounded , had their faces chewed by dogs after running around the slope , then raped in - 20c  and it was all hidden from the public, along with your book.

[anna_pycckux]

Ziljoe
Everything that aroused the slightest suspicion of the presence of outsiders was hidden or destroyed. I think that Lyudmila's real, torn underwear was thrown into the fire. The investigator did not take the remains of the fire for analysis. The tragedy at the pass is a big criminal scam. Your version of "died of freezing".- this conclusion was sought by criminal authorities who killed innocent guys in order to keep their warm official places.
Journalist Yuri Yarovoy, who was present at the pass in 1959, wrote a book. Its original version specifically stated: "THERE WAS A CONTRACT KILLING HERE," Akishev said at a 2017 conference.

[anna_pycckux]

Case solved then,they were liquidated by the liquidators from the allegations from wanting to leave the country which was unfounded , had their faces chewed by dogs after running around the slope , then raped in - 20c  and it was all hidden from the public, along with your book.

You're fooling around. Yes, the guys had to fight and run away from the liquidators with dogs. The murder of 9 young guys is not an easy story. There's no point in talking to you. You think like an oak table. Stay with your opinion.

[Ziljoe]

Case solved then,they were liquidated by the liquidators from the allegations from wanting to leave the country which was unfounded , had their faces chewed by dogs after running around the slope , then raped in - 20c  and it was all hidden from the public, along with your book.

You're fooling around. Yes, the guys had to fight and run away from the liquidators with dogs. The murder of 9 young guys is not an easy story. There's no point in talking to you. You think like an oak table. Stay with your opinion.

Unfortunately there is no subtitles with your videos. You say they were murdered , I don't know what you want or expect me to say?

Trained dogs don't bite the face, they go for the thigh or arm. Dogs  don't nip a face with one bite and release their hold.

[anna_pycckux]

Trained dogs don't bite the face, they go for the thigh or arm. Dogs  don't nip a face with one bite and release their hold.

really??
...

[Ziljoe]

Trained dogs don't bite the face, they go for the thigh or arm. Dogs  don't nip a face with one bite and release their hold.

really??
...

Your first picture here is of a dog being trained. The man is in a suit to protect him when getting pulled down.. You will notice he has no face protection. 

In your second photo, it's a stray dog that bites the child when the child approached the sleeping dog.

Your third picture looks like a dog nip to the face.

Your forth picture is from the funeral I believe. I do not recall any observer recording dog bites or any other type of bite.

[amashilu]

By the way, you can edit, too. We all can. You have a period of five minutes from the point of posting.

[GlennM]

Returning to the topic, regarding evidence of other parties, the sticking point is timing. All evidence for murder, assault and induced mayhem are ex post facto arguements. They can be put down to rescue/recovery artifacts, post morten physicalmchanges and a not so subtle desire for recognition, then and now. The only single explanation which need not be defended by these curious spins on the facts is a weather related tragedy. The hikers were I'll equipped, not cohesive as a group, overly confident of their abilities in exploring a poorly mapped area. They were not equal to the Russian winter.

[tenne]

The den is evidence of other people in my opinion. I can see no way that 4 people can dig a den  3.5 m deep in hard packed snow, based on the photos and being called a snow drift, with their bare hands, with no proper winter wear in the middle of the night. a knife sheath was found there only, not the knife, so either the initial report was wrong or it was stolen. given that corruption was investigating corruption, thinking we are going to find any truth shows how naive we are

" Kurikov followed some small fir tree branches in the snow till 50 m (164 ft) down from the cedar they led into the snowdrift. Rescuers began to dig and at a depth of 3.5 m they found cut branches covered with clothes"

the torch found down the slope shows other parties because it seems strange that they would they had time to grab a flashlight but not clothing. If anyone was outside with a lit flashlight, then there would be no reason to run from the 'unknown force' because they had light outside the tent to see it. If they were worried about a slab avalanche, they had a lit flashlight to see the snow

"Second flashlight was found switched on and depleted battery 450m down the slope."

bodies were repositioned, although this could have been done by the other members, it is still mind boggling that they sat there? while two members died of hypothermia, turned them over and then left.

"Livor mortis spots were located at the back of the neck, torso and extremities, which was not consistent with the position of the body in which it was found. This means the body was moved some time after the blood stopped circulating." Yuri Doroshenko

[GlennM]

The den is evidence of other people in my opinion. I can see no way that 4 people can dig a den  3.5 m deep in hard packed snow, based on the photos and being called a snow drift, with their bare hands, with no proper winter wear in the middle of the night. a knife sheath was found there only, not the knife, so either the initial report was wrong or it was stolen. given that corruption was investigating corruption, thinking we are going to find any truth shows how naive we are

" Kurikov followed some small fir tree branches in the snow till 50 m (164 ft) down from the cedar they led into the snowdrift. Rescuers began to dig and at a depth of 3.5 m they found cut branches covered with clothes"

the torch found down the slope shows other parties because it seems strange that they would they had time to grab a flashlight but not clothing. If anyone was outside with a lit flashlight, then there would be no reason to run from the 'unknown force' because they had light outside the tent to see it. If they were worried about a slab avalanche, they had a lit flashlight to see the snow

"Second flashlight was found switched on and depleted battery 450m down the slope."

bodies were repositioned, although this could have been done by the other members, it is still mind boggling that they sat there? while two members died of hypothermia, turned them over and then left.

"Livor mortis spots were located at the back of the neck, torso and extremities, which was not consistent with the position of the body in which it was found. This means the body was moved some time after the blood stopped circulating." Yuri Doroshenko

And yet, in spite of the stated difficulties,  four people were found embedded in that cave. They got there some how, some way. This same overburden of heavy snow could well be the source of the crushing injuries.

For me, the depleted flashlight indicates it was used at night. Since it is not military issue, I think that the hikers had blinding wintry darkness. The light was likely lost when someone took a tumble,  or jettisoned as spent. Significantly, it implies there was a transit to the woods from the slope, not the reverse. Again, this points to the tent always being on 1079.

I think it possible, assuming that livor mortis was described at autopsy, not in the field, Igor may well have been turned after death. I opt for Rustem doing it, It strikes me as odd that a Mansi would turn him over and leave him that way. It I simply too obvious a hint there was tampering before the rescue effort. As a Mansi  who wished for no trouble, you would think Igor would be returned to his original position.

[Manti]

By the way, you can edit, too. We all can. You have a period of five minutes from the point of posting.

We can't. I suspect it's five minutes from clicking "Reply" and by the time you click "Post", it's already past those five minutes. Or else the editing feature was specifically disabled for me.

[tenne]

And yet, in spite of the stated difficulties,  four people were found embedded in that cave. They got there some how, some way. This same overburden of heavy snow could well be the source of the crushing injuries.

No, they were not found in the den, they were found in the ravine,

"20 m from the den, a probe 4 m deep came out with a fragment of flesh. They started to dig. Dubinina's body was found in the ravine on may 5th, 1959."

so how was the den built then? if a theory is a correct one, it will explain everything. The presence of other people at the site would explain it being dug by them, not the 9

[Ziljoe]

By the way, you can edit, too. We all can. You have a period of five minutes from the point of posting.

We can't. I suspect it's five minutes from clicking "Reply" and by the time you click "Post", it's already past those five minutes. Or else the editing feature was specifically disabled for me.

I can't see an edit option after posting. ?

[Ziljoe]

And yet, in spite of the stated difficulties,  four people were found embedded in that cave. They got there some how, some way. This same overburden of heavy snow could well be the source of the crushing injuries.

No, they were not found in the den, they were found in the ravine,

"20 m from the den, a probe 4 m deep came out with a fragment of flesh. They started to dig. Dubinina's body was found in the ravine on may 5th, 1959."

so how was the den built then? if a theory is a correct one, it will explain everything. The presence of other people at the site would explain it being dug by them, not the 9

The den was 6m away from the ravine 4 , maybe less. The hard snow was found when digging down to  the ravine 4 . This is an indication of snow collapsing at some point.

We have the fractures and fractured ribs injuries  , hard snow and 2-3 meters of snow above the ravine 4 . They are found lying horizontal underneath a mass of snow, at the bottom of a stream/ravine.


To make a den , you can cut into a snow bank, slide down the snowbank or use the trunk of a small tree that may be available. It looks like they managed to cut some tree's . Also it is possible that there was a natural snow cave or snow bridge , partially existing  that the ravine 4 utilised.

[tenne]

The den was 6m away from the ravine 4 , maybe less. The hard snow was found when digging down to  the ravine 4 . This is an indication of snow collapsing at some point.

Where did you find this information?

""20 m from the den, a probe 4 m deep came out with a fragment of flesh. They started to dig. Dubinina's body was found in the ravine on may 5th, 1959.""

so from what I can find, the bodies were 20 m from the den, there is no evidence of snow collapse at the den and there is flooring and clothing on the floor of the den in 4 seats

 "The clothes on a bed of cut branches made 4 seats"

so where is the collapse? the den? or the ravine? both are seperate areas

[tenne]

This is the den, there are no trees around it, no bodies, no bank, no evidence of the creek. Are we talking about the same den? just to clarify that we are discussing the same place

[Ziljoe]

Sheet 341

PROTOCOL
Inspection of the scene where the bodies were found

On May 6, 1959, the prosecutor of city of Ivdel in Sverdlovsk region Jr Counselor of Justice TEMPALOV, in the presence of witnesses Dilevich Yuri Davydovich, address city of Kiev, Cominterna St. №12 room 11, Fyodorov Vadim Ivanovich, address city of Sverdlovsk, Stachek St. №19, apt. 222 and Artyupov Georgiy Semyonovich address city of Sverdlovsk .......... wrote this protocol of the scene where the 4 bodies were found. On the slope of the west side of height 880 in the ravine of a creek 50 meters from the known cedar were found four bodies of them three men and one woman. The body of the woman is identified as Lyudmila Dubinina. The bodies of men can not be identified without lifting them.
All bodies are in the water. They were excavated from the snow from 2.5 meters to 2 meters deep. Two men and a third lay their heads to the north along the stream. Dubinina's body lay in the opposite direction with her head against the current of the stream. Dubinina is wearing a scarf on her head, a yellow tank top, a checkered shirt and two sweaters, one gray one of another dark color, on the legs dark leggings and brown ski trousers, on the feet on one 2 woolen socks, the right foot is wrapped in half of a sweater of beige color. on the back of her head and neck there are signs of damage from the probe to which testified citizen Astenadze V. M., who found Dubinina. Her body has decayed. The first body of a man is dressed in a khaki storm jacket on his first hand are two watches brands "Pobeda" and "Sportivnye" the watches show - pobeda 38 minutes past 9 hours, and the sportivnye 15 minutes past 9 hours, the head and legs of this body are not visible, i.e. not the whole body is dug out from under the snow. And two bodies lie embracing, there is nothing on their heads, not all hair is left on their heads, one of them is wearing a storm jacket, the same for the second, what else it's on them can only be established after lifting their bodies from the stream. The lega are not visible, since they are not fully excavated from under the snow. The bodies have decayed. The bodies are photographed. The bodies should be immediately taken out from the stream, they can further decompose even more and they can be carried away by the stream, because the current is very fast. Up the creek in a distance of six meters along the tracks a den was found at a depth of 3 to 2.5 meters. The flooring consists of 14 fir tree and 1 birch tops in the snow. Items were found on top of the flooring.

https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-341-343?lid=1

If you scroll to sheet 343 you will see the diagram. There are reports that it was less than 6meters. The den and the ravine are different locations. The den is the one in the photo that you provide with the sticks at the bottom. The ravine 4 are suggested to have made or found a snow hole or snow cave in the ravine . This is potentially formed by overhangs of the banks eventually joining over the stream and/ or its banks. Snow holes and snow bridges occur naturally , in the right condtions , for example, where snow can be several meters deep over undulating terrain.

[Ziljoe]

Your 20 meters might be 20 feet?

[Ehtnisba]

By the way, you can edit, too. We all can. You have a period of five minutes from the point of posting.

We can't. I suspect it's five minutes from clicking "Reply" and by the time you click "Post", it's already past those five minutes. Or else the editing feature was specifically disabled for me.

I can edit after posting. And am not moderator nor big rating user.

[Ziljoe]

By the way, you can edit, too. We all can. You have a period of five minutes from the point of posting.

We can't. I suspect it's five minutes from clicking "Reply" and by the time you click "Post", it's already past those five minutes. Or else the editing feature was specifically disabled for me.

I can edit after posting. And am not moderator nor big rating user.

Oi..... I resemble that remark.

[WinterLeia]

People who do horrible things to other people normally don’t like to leave evidence of their presence at the scene of the crime for obvious reasons. They will make sure to take anything they brought with them, put anything back that they moved and will generally attempt to leave the scene the way they found it, or at least the way it should look, given the scenario they’re trying to push. If someone did murder these students, then the obvious scenario they were going for was that the students’ death was the result of an accident or nature. Hence, an abandoned tent, sitting on the side of the mountain for several weeks, was the most believable scenario and least nefarious one they could recreate. Why they would go leaving their shoes behind or placing a flashlight on a pile on snow on the top of the tent, which would create questions in anyone’s mind, is beyond me. And they had weeks to clean up after themselves. Furthermore, even if people were there, it doesn’t mean necessarily that they had anything to do with what happened. There are other reasons a person may have found the tent and not said anything about it.

For instance, I will admit that the guide telling Sharavin about this place with a steep cliff or something and then Sharavin and his companion going to find it only to discover the tent when they did, sounds very contrived, as if the man knew it was there, and was wanting Sharavin to find it without revealing that he already knew about it. Of course, that’s just my “read” on the situation. Even if true, though, it does sort of make sense that he would engineer such a scenario to deflect suspicion from himself, even if he wasn’t involved in the hikers’ death at all. Sharavin was a friend of the Dyatlov group, or at least an acquaintance who was concerned. Also, his time between when the group disappeared and they found the tent was probably better accounted for, meaning he had a better alibi. And he probably didn’t have a criminal record. The same might not be able to be said for the guide, or indeed many of the other people who might have come across the tent in the three weeks it sat there. The authorities were already suspicious of the Mansi, and that’s even before they really had anything to be suspicious about.

And if you’re argument against that is that it’s callous and selfish to not report an abandoned tent to the authorities the moment you find it because people’s lives are at stake, well, I hate to break it to you, but there are far more callous and selfish people in this world than there are murderers and rapists. Of course, I’m not implying that any specific person is like that or even that it was a factor in this case. I’ve never seen any evidence that’s convinced me that anyone found the tent and didn’t report it. And Sharavan’s vaguely suspicious story about the guide doesn’t count as evidence either. It’s just that for some reason, not only do people tend to fail to take the logistics of the whole thing into consideration, but they immediately decide on the most nefarious and sometimes fantastic scenario possible before ruling out the mundane and the common. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. There just isn’t that in this case for would-be attackers leaving ice picks, flashlights, and footwear all over the place when they had three weeks to make sure they didn’t do that.

As for Luda’s underwear, it doesn’t really follow naturally that she was raped. Despite the arguments to the contrary, I’m still of the opinion that her main problem on the trip was PMS. Women can sometimes have the symptoms of a menstruation cycle without little to no discharge, and it’s a highly underreported problem among female athletes that their menstruation cycles are anything but normal or regular. That would also explain the discharge in her vagina.

[GlennM]

Head assassin, " Let's kill these hikers and make it look like they did it to themselves."
Assasinationettes "Cool beans! But we can't get a fire going to make our cocoa"
Head assassin, " Well, go ahead and dig a big ol' square out of the snow, have your drinks and then get on with the other thing!"
Assaninationettes, " Right! Let's see, shovel, Check, junk to put on the floor, check, flashlight,  uh... puttees, uh... are we going to get in trouble? "
Head assassin " Not to worry, nobody is going to miss it, just back home, but remember to pack up the ladder when you leave.

[anna_pycckux]

It’s just that for some reason, not only do people tend to fail to take the logistics of the whole thing into consideration, but they immediately decide on the most nefarious and sometimes fantastic scenario possible before ruling out the mundane and the common. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. There just isn’t that in this case for would-be attackers leaving ice picks, flashlights, and footwear all over the place when they had three weeks to make sure they didn’t do that.

Bad weather could kill poorly equipped and hungry tourists, but history and accumulated experience suggest that bad weather, an avalanche could not kill everyone! Someone would have survived.
Only the order to eliminate tourists leaves no chance!

[tenne]

Head assassin, " Let's kill these hikers and make it look like they did it to themselves."
Assasinationettes "Cool beans! But we can't get a fire going to make our cocoa"
Head assassin, " Well, go ahead and dig a big ol' square out of the snow, have your drinks and then get on with the other thing!"
Assaninationettes, " Right! Let's see, shovel, Check, junk to put on the floor, check, flashlight,  uh... puttees, uh... are we going to get in trouble? "
Head assassin " Not to worry, nobody is going to miss it, just back home, but remember to pack up the ladder when you leave.

so what is your explanation of how 4 people without proper equipment, in the middle of the night, without proper winter wear, were able to dig out the den and pile cut branches on the bottom of it?

I personally would love to understand how they did it?