Smashed bones

[Manti]

I have found this snow load calculator: https://www.omnicalculator.com/construction/snow-loadDisregard that it's for rooves (roofs?).

I entered 50cm x 50cm as the area of the ribcage / chest. Snow cover thickness: 4m.

• Load from fresh snow: 60kg
• Wind packed snow: 375kg
• Wet snow: 750kg
• Ice: 917kg

Maybe the den collapse injuring them is unbelievable to me because I was thinking of fresh snow

[Manti]

The forum broke the link above. Here it is again, sorry:

 https://www.omnicalculator.com/construction/snow-load

[Ziljoe]

Thank you, It's a pretty good illustration!

However... I think the injuries and the collapse would have happened where the flooring of the den was, right? Maybe the flooring also shifted a bit, their bodies shifting more can be explained by the weight / density difference: sticks are light, for example they float on water. Whereas bodies sink (if there is no air in the lungs). And melting, shifting snow behaves somewhat like a very thick fluid.

So the snow mass above them would have been less. And then, there's this:

GS: The surface on which the person was lying was relatively firm?
SN: Yes. It is unlikely that he was lying in the snow.

Are tree branches places on snow firm enough? I don't think so, but maybe. Or was the flooring of the den directly on the ground below the snow?

My main issue with the den collapse causing the injuries is that the snow would not fall a great distance. Maybe half a meter. And so it wouldn't gather much speed. Somehow the comparison that comes to my mind is a weightlifter who drops their weight during a bench press. The injury is mostly recovered from. Unlike a high speed "car crash" type injury.. Although maybe this is because usually there are others in a gym ready to render aid which wasn't the case in the den of the Dyatlovites.

There might have been movement of the bodies. Although not from the den, I don't think the den was found with water flow but you never know.

I think the snow was recorded at about 300mm under the den branches.

The ground under the bodies , I would guess to be about the same and be compacted snow with the stone/ gravel of the stream underneath.

I'm not sure about the weight lifters and I think I will have seen similar videos. The weight has a chance to go off to the left or right plus it would mostly be a slow squeeze. I'm not sure if my ribs would survive a drop of 60kg on them from my poor bench pressing . Thanks for the calculation link.

[ilahiyol]

It is unlikely that the bodies will be displaced by the flow of the river. For this, the stream bed must be inclined. And the water flow must be strong enough. The slope in the stream bed is very low and the water flow is not enough. It is very difficult to move the corpses under these conditions. Maybe a few centimeters. But no more. Of course, measurements must be made to be absolutely sure. But at first glance, it doesn't seem possible to replace the bodies.

[WinterLeia]

If you want to believe in a den collapse, there’s two questions you need to answer. The first is:

Why weren’t they found in the den then?

If your answer is water flow, then please explain how the water picked up three male bodies that were horizontal to the flow, meaning they offered the most resistance, and carried them almost as far as Luda, who was smaller and vertical to the flow. We’re talking about a stream here, not a river.

And the second question is:

That snow would have to be pretty hard to break human ribs. Remember, the only reason why they say such injuries are possible at the tent is because they were crushed between two hard surfaces, the reinforced floor beneath them and the snow which came down in one devastating slab. Their injuries were not typical of avalanche victims. Of course, the question isn’t whether it’s hard or soft snow. We can assume it’s hard snow because it would have to be to injure people like that. Once that assumption is made, though, then the question comes up. How did they dig out the snow den with their hands, while they were likely suffering from exhaustion, hypothermia, and frostbite? If the searchers had a hard time digging it out with shovels, then how did the Dyatlov group manage to do it without shovels.

Personally, I don’t believe the snow den was ever used.

[ilahiyol]

It is a fact that whatever attacked young people was nothing out of the ordinary. There is a power that is very smart, very knowledgeable, and knows very well what it is doing. Because he scares the group while they are in the forest and has them set up a tent on the mountain slope. And again on the mountain slope, he scares them back into the forest!!!Then he doesn't show up for a while.... Then he comes back and kills the young people one by one!!! He thinks, plans and then implements it step by step. He's in no hurry. He seems sure of what he is doing(!) It looks like he chose these young people specially! That's why we need to look at what these young people have in common. Why were these chosen??? What common features do they have??? What I found; 1. Sincerity 2. They have a thoughtful nature. 3. Friendship and love are in the foreground 4. They have a fighting nature. 5. Optimistic people do not have a pessimistic nature. 6. They are in unity and togetherness 7. They have a desire to discover new things. 8. People of Faith These are all my findings... These made them special. And that is why the unknown POWER may have chosen them.

[Ziljoe]

This video link is taken off dyatlovpass site.

https://dyatlovpass.com/ravine-alekseenkov-and-kan

View or download the file 'Обрушение карниза 2 Прыжок.MTS' https://disk.yandex.com/i/vKycSxksLBX_Og

It's in Russian and is a reconstruction at the ravine/ den area. I believe it's the actual location. In the first video clip it shows a possible way to dig out the snow drift using a stick by an individual ,in the second clip that I have shared above , it shows a small cornice over hang to the left of the screen and when the man jumps down the snow bank he disappears up to his chest , it would seem like there's a void under him. This is possibly the stream . This suggests that there could easily have been a natural snow cave or hole above the stream and that they may have used for shelter.

The den and the location of the bodies are separate areas. I do not think there was a snow collapse at the den. I think it was most likely to have occured where the bodies were found.

The cave may have been already there by a snow bridge being formed over the previous winter months. Digging is possible with a stick and if your only option is to shelter in a snow cave, you take it. 

If there had been a snow collapse, then this would have changed the consistency of the snow for when the searchers came. It will have been compacted . If we think of snow that slides off a roof of a house , or when we make snow men or snow forts. The snow that has been compacted or forced together is hard . This snow is the last to thaw.

The logic I am applying here is,

1)We have a force, snow and gravity. ( A lot of snow).

2)We have four bodies under this snow and their bodies are at ground level.on a hard surface.

3)They have chest and skull fractures.

The other options are  something dug a hole and buried them and they suffered the injuries somewhere else.

Other people laid the bodies there and it snowed/drifted , a lot in three weeks.

[WinterLeia]

Luda and Semyon would have had to have been lying down to get those injuries, because it still would have been a slab avalanche of some kind, and I’m not sure why they would have been lying down in that spot, considering that would be the entrance to the snow den, which is supposed to be below the den itself because heat rises. There might be a reason. It’s not impossible, just weird. As far as digging it out with a stick, though, did the person try that when the temperature and weather would have been comparable to the night the tragedy happened, strip down to what Luda was wearing, walk all the way down the slope from the tent location to the cedar in stocking feet and then try to dig out a snow den with bare or mittened hands and a stick while suffering from hypothermia and frost bite and also gathering tree clippings that they somehow managed to break off the trees without a knife. It’s fine to say such things are possible. It’s quite another to say such things are possible given a certain set of circumstances. The snow den would have taken a while to dig out with a stick, and that’s time that the tourists did not have.

Not to mention that a slab avalanche at the tent makes Dyatlov look like an idiot while a snow den collapse makes Semyon look like an idiot. I thought these were professionals. What was UPI doing letting such novices wander around in such a forbidding place? Not to mention that a snow den collapse doesn’t explain what happened to make them need one anyway, unless you’re saying there was an avalanche at the tent too. And that’s really stretching credulity. I don’t know what people don’t understand about it not being an avalanche prone area.

[Ziljoe]

Many professionals have been caught out in activities , in modern times too. Some unprofessional people have beaten the odds and survived .

If they can't be at the tent for whatever reason, then they have to work with the resources they have against the cold. Standing out in the cold is not an option.

We only really have two options. Outsiders or the environment.

If they are against the cold then you will dig a snow hole, it's common sense in that regard, using the ceder wood and dried branches is common sense.


Regarding it not being an avalanche prone area may have nothing to do with it. The hikers only needed to think there was an avalanche.

The best way to investigate, in my opinion , is to rule out if the circumstances caused their deaths by process of elimination, Can the injuries be caused by the environment?. There is little substance by saying people look like idiots or should be professional, there are tipping points.

It would be  prudent to avoid such assumptions. If we can say that there's no way these injuries could occur from a snow collapse , it is then we can move forward.

The walking down the slope has been proven to be doable, they are moving their bodies. It can be done, so can building a snow hole and finding one..

[tenne]

In the first video clip it shows a possible way to dig out the snow drift using a stick by an individual ,

Are you referencing the video that shows the fully dressed man on skis in daylight knocking down part of a bank with a flat wide manufactured board? part of a ski? not sure what it is. That video?

[Ziljoe]

Yes tenne,

That's the very one.

[WinterLeia]

To begin with, I never said they couldn’t walk down a slope. So I’m not sure what that comment is aimed at. Nor do I believe they did not dig the snow den. My comment was in regard to the assumption that the snow was of a consistency that it could break human bones while still being a fairly localized event, considering the fact that it certainly wouldn’t be like a large avalanche you might get in the alps where it just sweeps up anything in its path. I do not believe that they’re having to dig out a snow den, with a stick or otherwise, supports that scenario, considering everything else they had to contend with, which I listed in my post. Furthermore, whatever happened at the tent has to account for, not only the fact that they left the tent, but also for why they didn’t go back to it. Why was digging out a snow den a better alternative than simply returning to the tent? The “window” in the cedar proves that they did know where the tent was, and the only reason to climb it, which at least one of them did, is to see the tent. To be sure, if it was a slab avalanche, perceived or otherwise, they might have feared a repeat performance. We know, though, there wasn’t one. So how long would they would have waited around, underdressed and freezing, while nothing happened. Until they were so far gone with exhaustion and hypothermia that they just fell and died where they lay in a desperate attempt to get back to the tent, like what happened to Igor, Rustem, and Zina. That seems highly improbable to me.

And it is correct that it had to be outsiders or environment. But that doesn’t mean outsiders or avalanche. Nor do outsiders necessarily mean they were murdered. And, yes, process of elimination is a great way to get to the bottom of the mystery. Unfortunately, very few scenarios in this case have been eliminated. The avalanche theory has its problems the same as all theories do. That is likely because we not only are missing pieces of the puzzle, but also have pieces that are not part of the puzzle  at all, and there is no way for us to know that.

I will just end by saying that I don’t personally find the avalanche theory all that compelling. But if it is the answer, then it fits the facts a lot better that Semyon and Luda’s injuries were caused by a slab avalanche at the tent rather than the den, even though there’s some logistic problems with that scenario.

[Ziljoe]

Sorry winterleia, nothing was directed at you ,it was general to a few comments.

We know from other researchers/ investigators that it is possible to walk down the slope from the tent to ceder and ravine in socks. We also know from the video clip that it's possible to fashion some sort snow hole with a stick and that snow holes/bridges exist and occur at the ravine.

I suspect some of the videos are filmed in day light so the viewer can see what's going on.

The data for the weather conditions vary considerably depending on who we listen to. Warm front to cold.

Small spruce trees can be cut with a small knife , there was at least one Knife recorded .

We don't know if the incident took place at night. We have the food being eaten so this could be evening or morning at a guess.

Whatever made them leave the tent must have been serious enough to make the decision that the forest was better. It is there they have to survive.

I'm not sure if the window at the ceder is a fact. In was an observation , the branches that were broken were used for burning and the window area on the ceder was the weathered side of the tree. These branches would be dryer.

There is debate about the Mansi chum for example, it is suggested that it's how they store wood for burning when making a stop. They are put vertical and exposed to the wind.

I agree about Igor Rustem and Zina, I can't understand why they would carry on without helping each other. That's one thing I can't fathom other than extreme cold .

I also agree that outsiders doesn't mean murder and that any of the scenarios can overlap..

An avalanche can occur at 20 degrees given the right condtions. It doesn't need to be a full blown avalanche to make them leave the tent, the hikers just need to think it was.

Anyway, I do think that a snow collapse above where  the ravine 4 are located is the most likely explanation for the fractures.  We have compacted snow above them, they are lying on a hard surface, the actual location of the 4 bodies also lends itself to be the natural location of an entrance to a snow cave/ bridge. There is the small waterfall and drop. As the winter season progressed , the water fall and dip would prevent snow accumulation, or at least , slow the process as compared to flat areas of the stream. I do however think they would have had insulation under them.

[amashilu]

When trying to understand what might have happened, I always keep foremost in my mind the incredible severity of the injuries of the Ravine4. I don't believe anyone was injured at the tent because, given how badly disabled they would have been, they could not have walked for an hour afterwards. Something else happened at the tent, and then once they got down to the cedar area, the injuries took place. Here are 2 descriptions of them:

During the investigation, the forensic expert B.A. Vozrozhdenniy was questioned, who performed the autopsy of the bodies of the dead.
"I think the character of the injuries on Dubinina and Zolotaryov – a multiple fracture of the ribs – on Dubinina were bilateral and symmetrical, and on Zolotaryov were one-sided. Both had hemorrhaging into the cardiac muscle with hemorrhaging into the pleural cavity, which is evidence of them being alive [when injured] and is the result of the action of a large force... These injuries, especially appearing in such a way without any damage to the soft tissue of the chest, are very similar to the type of trauma that results from the shock wave of a bomb." (Case files 382)

Thibeaux-Brignolle could have received a blow to the temple with a hard blunt object with a limited surface - he had a depressed fracture of the right temporal parietal bone in a 9x7 cm area with a defect in bone tissue and temporal bone measuring 3x3.5x2 cm.In the cranial fossa there is a multifragmented fracture of the right temporal bone with divergence and transition of the bone crack into the anterior cranial fossa to the right supraorbital region of the frontal bone and a 17 cm long crack in the base of the skull."
Now, of course, it can be assumed that such a fracture can be obtained by falling and hitting his head on the stones. But in his case Thibeaux-Brignolle had to take himself by the legs and pound his own head on these very stones with a fury. - Igor Povetkin

[Ziljoe]

Igor Povetkin says the following.

We will not believe Sharavin and regard his memoirs as invented retroactively on our own initiative or on a tip from the outside.

Why don't we believe it? Simply because there was no ice ax in the Dyatlov group. There is no ice ax in the inventory of the group's property available in the criminal case. The ice ax also does not appear in the protocols of inspections of the place where the tent was found, nor of the items inside. Sharavin himself has not been interrogated in the case, and his 2007 story can be safely assessed as a consequence of senile insanity.

There was an ax, ice ax. It's in several photos.  I'm working my way through his theory. He seems to miss some facts and is emotive.

[amashilu]

Hello Ziljoe,

Not sure what your point is. I think maybe you are attempting to discredit everything Povetkin says?

As we all know, there are varying reports and memories of just about everything, from the existence of the labaz, to how many skiis there were, to whether the tent was cut from the inside or the outside, to the ice axe, and the den, and just about everything else. I don't think your statement can be used to discredit Povetkin.

[Ziljoe]

Hi amashilu,

They had an ice ax, at least one, it is obvious.

Is it not Povetkin that is trying to discredit Sharavin?.

To say

We will not believe Sharavin and regard his memoirs as invented retroactively on our own initiative or on a tip from the outside.

Why don't we believe it? Simply because there was no ice ax in the Dyatlov group.

Sharavin himself has not been interrogated in the case, and his 2007 story can be safely assessed as a consequence of senile insanity.



How can Sharavin 's story be the consequence of senile insanity ?

[Per Inge Oestmoen]

Luda and Semyon would have had to have been lying down to get those injuries,

Not at all.

Elbow strikes from a skilled special forces operator trained would create precisely this kind of injuries.

[WinterLeia]

Luda and Semyon would have had to have been lying down to get those injuries,

Not at all.

Elbow strikes from a skilled special forces operator trained would create precisely this kind of injuries.

I said that on the assumption that their injuries were caused by a slab avalanche or a snow den collapse. I wasn’t considering any other theory. And the only way I know that is because that’s how the official theory says it happens. Personally, I don’t think their injuries were caused by an avalanche either at the tent or the den. But I don’t endorse any one theory.