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Author Topic: Has anyone gone to that area to re-create the event?  (Read 29744 times)

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April 20, 2023, 01:29:03 PM
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tenne


I am curious if anybody knows about an expedition to re-create what happened at the pass? By that I mean set up a tent in the area it was supposed to be set up, walk down to where they were supposed to have walked down in bare feet or stocking feet to see if it can be done, although of course not to the point of getting frostbite

Walk in the deep snow without skis and proper footwear and try to dig out a den using hands, a knife sheath which is all that was officially found and branches.

Tried to light a fire in that area with bare hands using the materials that it looks like they used

 

April 20, 2023, 02:44:15 PM
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Ziljoe


I am curious if anybody knows about an expedition to re-create what happened at the pass? By that I mean set up a tent in the area it was supposed to be set up, walk down to where they were supposed to have walked down in bare feet or stocking feet to see if it can be done, although of course not to the point of getting frostbite

Walk in the deep snow without skis and proper footwear and try to dig out a den using hands, a knife sheath which is all that was officially found and branches.

Tried to light a fire in that area with bare hands using the materials that it looks like they used



If you follow the links , you will find a number of experiments.

https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1410.msg22852#msg22852

Below are a number of videos with experiments.

https://youtube.com/@user9345709345
 

April 20, 2023, 02:53:33 PM
Reply #2
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tenne


I have seen those, thank you and they do a good job, but having experience in the winter outdoors I can tell you that doing it fully dressed is nowhere near the real experience of the 9. Making a den with warm fingers in a glove, while wearing a warm jacket, warm pants ,warm socks and warm boots in broad daylight isn’t exactly recreating it in my opinion but I do understand that for other people it may be enough.

 
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April 20, 2023, 02:54:49 PM
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tenne


Just as a small point, fir needles against clothing isn’t an issue, crawling and walking on fir needles and bare skin is a completely different story
 

April 20, 2023, 03:17:50 PM
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Ziljoe


I have seen those, thank you and they do a good job, but having experience in the winter outdoors I can tell you that doing it fully dressed is nowhere near the real experience of the 9. Making a den with warm fingers in a glove, while wearing a warm jacket, warm pants ,warm socks and warm boots in broad daylight isn’t exactly recreating it in my opinion but I do understand that for other people it may be enough.



I believe there is a video of them walking in socks from the tent to the ravine in the link if not I know one exists as I have seen it.

I don't think any of them had bare feet on the walk to the ravine.

When in a survival situation you work with what you have. Like wise, in the tent , on the slope where I assume the temperature would be colder , they would be in less dress also. Many people have survived or lived longer in the cold. If the left the tent and couldn't get to it, even if there were armed guards at the tent. The Dyatlov group would have to work with what they have.  I can't imagine them standing there freezing , doing nothing. Of hands get cold but you can also get used to it. Living in such cold climates helps.

It would make a rubbish video in the dark plus we don't know if it was daylight at the time. You can see a snow hole being dug. It can be done.

Just as a small point, fir needles against clothing isn’t an issue, crawling and walking on fir needles and bare skin is a completely different story

Bare skin next to needles is better than bare skin to snow. Seriously,i wouldn't want you in a survival situation. Anyway, who was in bare skin?

Everything looks like a survival effort.
 

April 20, 2023, 04:21:58 PM
Reply #5
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tenne


So basically what you’re saying is there aren’t any videos that would prove it to me, although they satisfy you. Thank you for responding
 

April 20, 2023, 06:47:50 PM
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Ziljoe


So basically what you’re saying is there aren’t any videos that would prove it to me, although they satisfy you. Thank you for responding

Nope, I am not saying anything basically. I don't know what you need proof of. I don't need a video to prove one could walk , in socks, 1.5 km in the snow , I do not need proof that a snow den can be made. These things are doable.

One's body doesn't instantly freeze.

Here's a naked guy challaging himself in the woods and snow, pushing the envelope.

Here's an interesting story and there's a film . It's about an Icelandic sailer in the sea 4 six hours and then walking bare foot.



We also know about Ernest Shackleton. The human can survive and I give these as example of extremes . There are many.

Whatever  happened to the DP 9 . I believe they would have the ability to walk to the ravine, make a fire and snow hole or find a cave . I do not think this is outside of possibility in the slightest. It may not have been comfortable but not impossible.

It is a fact that you can walk in socks in the snow. It is a fact that snow caves/ holes form over streams or ravines. It is a fact that a snow hole can be dug with a stick. It is a fact that a fire can be lit in winter and snow.

There are no arguments against these facts.

However, other events may have occurred and I accept that.
 
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April 20, 2023, 08:53:41 PM
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Олег Таймень


I have seen those, thank you and they do a good job, but having experience in the winter outdoors I can tell you that doing it fully dressed is nowhere near the real experience of the 9. Making a den with warm fingers in a glove, while wearing a warm jacket, warm pants ,warm socks and warm boots in broad daylight isn’t exactly recreating it in my opinion but I do understand that for other people it may be enough.

And who told you that the tourists were completely naked? Zina had shoe insoles inserted between two pairs of socks. It already protects the feet well from the cold.
The completely undressed Yuras, who were found under the cedar, did not come there undressed either. All their running items are found on the deck and on other participants in the ravine
If a mountain comes towards you, and you are not Mohammed, then it is a rockfall.
 
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April 21, 2023, 05:44:07 AM
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amashilu

Global Moderator
And who told you that the tourists were completely naked?

To be fair, tenne did not say they were completely naked.

I think tenne asks a good question about replication of the conditions. We could learn a lot from that.
 

April 21, 2023, 10:23:13 PM
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anna_pycckux


I am curious if anybody knows about an expedition to re-create what happened at the pass? By that I mean set up a tent in the area it was supposed to be set up, walk down to where they were supposed to have walked down in bare feet or stocking feet to see if it can be done, although of course not to the point of getting frostbite
The journalists of the newspaper "KP" conducted an experiment in 2013: after cutting the tent, they rushed to run down the slope in socks. Natalia Varsegova said that she was able to run only 30 meters and returned to the tent barely alive. Her opinion: in winter it is impossible to run in socks on the slope!!

.
 

April 21, 2023, 10:35:16 PM
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Ziljoe


I am curious if anybody knows about an expedition to re-create what happened at the pass? By that I mean set up a tent in the area it was supposed to be set up, walk down to where they were supposed to have walked down in bare feet or stocking feet to see if it can be done, although of course not to the point of getting frostbite
The journalists of the newspaper "KP" conducted an experiment in 2013: after cutting the tent, they rushed to run down the slope in socks. Natalia Varsegova said that she was able to run only 30 meters and returned to the tent barely alive. Her opinion: in winter it is impossible to run in socks on the slope!!

.


Why was it impossible, what were the conditions? What tent did she cut, why was she barely alive after 30 meters? Why was she running ?
 
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April 21, 2023, 10:37:24 PM
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Ziljoe


Could you post the direct links instead of photos? 
 
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April 21, 2023, 10:45:29 PM
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Ziljoe


From the text I can only get this translation.

 
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April 23, 2023, 03:09:38 AM
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Manti


What I would like to see proof of, is that a collapsing snow cave can break a skull.


Another one is: that it's possible to survive a night in an unheated tent on that slope, in the conditions that we think were present on that night  - and you can see similar conditions in Oleg's (Олег Таймень) videos.
Not in a modern 2-layer nylon tent with -40C rated mountaineering sleeping bags, modern thermal clothing, etc. But in a single-layer canvas tent with no sleeping bags, in clothing similar to what they had. We have a pretty good inventory protocol available..


 
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April 24, 2023, 11:05:54 AM
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anna_pycckux


What I would like to see proof of, is that a collapsing snow cave can break a skull.

Injuries of tourists during the collapse of a snow cave, as well as during an avalanche, can be diverse. The question is, what kind of snow cave is this, who invented it, where are the evidences of the existence of a snow cave. According to my version, the guys were killed by the military, following the order of the authorities to strip and freeze tourists to death. They were lured out of the tent by deception, undressed and barefoot, they did not run.  They walked down the slope warmly dressed and shod. This version of events is the closest to the truth.
 

April 25, 2023, 01:38:19 PM
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Jean Daniel Reuss


....By that I mean set up a tent in the area it was supposed to be set up, walk down to where they were supposed to have walked down in bare feet or stocking feet to see if it can be done,.................
I personally think that :
••• «...set up a tent in the area it was supposed to be set up...»
••• «...walk down to where they were supposed to have walked down...»
These two operations do not seem to present any difficulties for nine sporty people.
But the reconstruction is impossible because the wind speed is unknown: 3 m/s or 30 m/s ?, nobody knows.

••• «...in bare feet or stocking feet...»
After leaving the tent the hikers seem to have worn enough clothes.
But it is not clear what clothes were actually worn, because afterwards there was undressing - washing - and re-dressing
 of the corpses.

See :Injuries, clothing and belongings to Dyatlov group
https://dyatlovpass.com/injuries?filter_page=3&rbid=18461

••• «...Walk in the deep snow without skis...»
On 1 February, almost all along the way down from the tent to the cedar, the snow was probably hard, as can be seen in the photos of the rescuers at the end of February.



••• «...dig out a den using hands...»
On 1 February there was little snow, so there was almost nothing to dig up to put down the branches or twigs that characterise the Den.

I am curious if anybody knows about an expedition to re-create what happened at the pass?.......................
.................................
For the supporters of the criminal explanation of DPI, the re-enactment you suggest, by some kind of actors, is irrelevant because the outcome of this deadly altercation did not depend on the hikers (and for that matter neither on the temperature nor on the wind speed).

The supporters of the criminal explanation assume the presence of other people, the attackers, most of whose tracks in the snow were erased by the wind between 2 February and 26 February.

The qualification of the attackers varies according to the authors, for example:

Eduard Tumanov: outsiders.   

Per Inge Oestmoen: skilled special forces operator (KGB or GRU?).

anna_pycckux: military liquidators; There is a very high probability that the liquidators were from the military of the Ivdel Gulag. The order came from the party organs.

My TOK theory: 3 hitmen, who for several logical reasons that I will detail later, are armed only with big sticks (no firearms, which is remarkable and constitutes the originality of this massacre).

The commander, (also called client, sponsor...depending on the translation) was a former NKVD official, fiercely opposed to Khrushchev's de-Stalinisation policy.

The sponsor's order was: kill all the hikers in such a way that it would not look like an accident at all, but a terrorist attack to impress the Kremlin.
 
So the hitmen did not stage anything on the slope of Kholat Syakhl, but that was not always enough to convince all later observers that the DPI was an ordinary massacre caused by human beings.

..............................
Tried to light a fire in that area with bare hands using the materials that it looks like they used. 
The fire was lit by the 3 attackers (at about 6 pm on 1 February) to attract the hikers to a fake aid post (under the cedar tree).

From the point of view of the 3 attackers this fire was a tactical success which allowed to separate the 9 hikers into 3 groups easier to defeat separately

1) - Kolgomorova and Slobodin were knocked out one after the other during the descent to the cedar.

Of the remaining 7 who reached the cedar:
2) - Doroshenko, Dyatlov and then Krivonischenko, who stayed near the dazzling fire to benefit from the heat, were successively isolated and thus easily defeated.

3) - The 3 remaining men (Z,K and TB), who were politically more experienced and (therefore) more distrustful, joined by Dubinina who was worried since her enigmatic setbacks in Vizhay, went to hide in the Den.
Unfortunately, the last four to survive were finally, but with difficulty, found, and their corpses, thrown into the Ravine, bear the characteristic scars of the sadism and the fury of the attackers.
Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.
 
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April 25, 2023, 01:56:06 PM
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Ziljoe


For tenne.

This the video of walking from the tent to ravine , in socks.



It shows it can be done. What's interesting is the exposed rocks. This would have been difficult on ski's and heavy back packs. There will be little snow on the slope because of the wind other than changing snow drifts in the hollows. It is probably why they pitched their tent where they did on the slope. They could dig in and anchor thier ski poles deep enough to support the tent lines.

 
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April 25, 2023, 03:03:32 PM
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Ziljoe


What I would like to see proof of, is that a collapsing snow cave can break a skull.

Injuries of tourists during the collapse of a snow cave, as well as during an avalanche, can be diverse. The question is, what kind of snow cave is this, who invented it, where are the evidences of the existence of a snow cave. According to my version, the guys were killed by the military, following the order of the authorities to strip and freeze tourists to death. They were lured out of the tent by deception, undressed and barefoot, they did not run.  They walked down the slope warmly dressed and shod. This version of events is the closest to the truth.

I am trying to eliminate the possibility of the skull fracture at the ravine from a snow collapse but I can't prove it as it is not my specialty.

From my own observations, I am looking at the ravine 4 in isolation.

1) The ravine 4 are under 3 plus meters of snow, as is the den location.

2) the ravine 4 are at ground level or there about , as is the den. ( The den is reported to be about 300 mm if I remember ,off the ground).

Questions I ask myself , is how did that amount of snow gather in the three weeks from February 1.

I have read there is less snow in recent years that gathers in the ravine but it is logical that snow gathers in a ravine. It is the nature of snow. It is also the nature of snow to build snow bridges over ravines, especially where water runs below.

It is a possibility that the injuries are a crush injuries from a mass of snow falling on top of the ravine 4. The chest fractures do indicate this. As for the skull fracture and deformed neck, I think it's a plausible. Since there was 9 of them it would be difficult to make a snow hole or cave that big. Two groups , one of 4 and one of 5 would be the maximum, combined with body heat to try and make snow holes ? .

If the skull fracture is on the the side where it is against hard ground / or rocks and the force comes from above , then it is a possibility.

https://dyatlovpass.com/vasilii-zyadik

In the link above we can get a visualization of how the ravine bodies were found.. we know that there was 3 plus meters of snow above them. From the illustration we can get an idea of the den location.

We have a snow mass. Bodies at ground level. This a a question of the chicken and egg. , Which came first.? The bodies at ground level and snow fell on top of them, or the bodies got below snow that was already there.

The reason I highlight this point is ,the snow would gather in the ravine before the Dyatlov group even started their hike.

This then raises the question , why would outsiders dig snow out of a ravine to lay 4 bodies at ground level?

 

April 25, 2023, 10:50:32 PM
Reply #19
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anna_pycckux


It shows it can be done.
As soon as I saw what BORZENKOV was recording, I immediately thought it was a lie! I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT BELIEVE BORZENKOV!! The experiment is incorrect, it doesn't look like a man is wearing socks.

.
.

 

April 26, 2023, 03:35:14 AM
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Ziljoe


You can get a good look at his socks at 11:50



Apparently the clothes are of Zina. It is based on what she was wearing. I do not think it is a lie, why bother to do so much work and travel to lie?.

Below is the link with more details to the experiments. What was done and weather conditions. There is lots of information and debates that might answer some questions for some people.

https://pereval1959.kamrbb.ru/?x=read&razdel=17&tema=167&start=0#main_167
"Experiments were carried out at the scene of events: in clothes similar to Zina's clothes, he climbed from our tent at the remnants to the MP on the spur, went down the 4PL to the mouth of the 1st stream, went to the cedar, went up to the MP, dug out a perimeter of 4 × 2 × 0 with a ski, 5 meters, returned to our camp from the slope - all the adventures / body movements lasted 4.5 hours. At the exit it was -28 degrees, when returning to the camp -18 degrees, the wind on the slope is weak up to 3.6 m/s. I didn’t eat before leaving, I drank a mug of sweet tea. Blood sugar at the start - 5.6 at the finish line - 4.6."
 
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April 26, 2023, 06:09:51 AM
Reply #21
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anna_pycckux


Apparently the clothes are of Zina. It is based on what she was wearing. I do not think it is a lie, why bother to do so much work and travel to lie?.
У Борзенкова привычка врать. Сам представь, что ты идешь в носках по каменным грядам. Носки обязательно бы сползали, закручивались, приходилось бы их поправлять. Но человек идет без проблем, не ощущая дискомфорта. ОН НИ РАЗУ НЕ НАГНУЛСЯ, ЧТОБ ПОПРАВИТЬ НОСКИ. НА НЕМ НЕ НОСКИ! Судмед экспертиза не утверждала, что ступни ребят были изранены и обморожены. Все версии с фактом бега по склону в  носках - снимаем с повестки!!

Borzenkov has a habit of lying. Imagine that you are walking in socks on stone ridges. The socks would have slipped off, twisted, they would have had to be corrected. But a person walks without problems, without experiencing discomfort. HE NEVER BENT DOWN TO STRAIGHTEN HIS SOCKS! The forensic medical examination did not claim that the children's feet were wounded and frostbitten. All versions with the fact of running downhill in socks are removed from the agenda!!

 

April 26, 2023, 06:30:34 AM
Reply #22
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Олег Таймень


Apparently the clothes are of Zina. It is based on what she was wearing. I do not think it is a lie, why bother to do so much work and travel to lie?.
У Борзенкова привычка врать. Сам представь, что ты идешь в носках по каменным грядам. Носки обязательно бы сползали, закручивались, приходилось бы их поправлять. Но человек идет без проблем, не ощущая дискомфорта. ОН НИ РАЗУ НЕ НАГНУЛСЯ, ЧТОБ ПОПРАВИТЬ НОСКИ. НА НЕМ НЕ НОСКИ! Судмед экспертиза не утверждала, что ступни ребят были изранены и обморожены. Все версии с фактом бега по склону в  носках - снимаем с повестки!!

Borzenkov has a habit of lying. Imagine that you are walking in socks on stone ridges. The socks would have slipped off, twisted, they would have had to be corrected. But a person walks without problems, without experiencing discomfort. HE NEVER BENT DOWN TO STRAIGHTEN HIS SOCKS! The forensic medical examination did not claim that the children's feet were wounded and frostbitten. All versions with the fact of running downhill in socks are removed from the agenda!!


In this video, Alexander Alekseenkov walks, wearing two pairs of socks and inserting insoles between them. Everything is exactly the same as that of Zinaida Kolmogorova. Where did you spot the lies? I don't know Borzenkov, but I do know Alekseenkov. He certainly will not invent or falsify something.
В этом видео Александр Алексеенков идёт, одев две пары носок и вставив между ними стельки. Всё точно так, как у Зинаиды Колмогоровой. В каком месте вы углядели враньё ? Борзенкова я не знаю, но знаю Алексеенкова. Он точно не будет что-то придумывать или фальсифицировать.
If a mountain comes towards you, and you are not Mohammed, then it is a rockfall.
 
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April 26, 2023, 06:49:52 AM
Reply #23
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anna_pycckux


В этом видео Александр Алексеенков идёт, одев две пары носок и вставив между ними стельки.
In this video, Alekseyenkov is clearly not wearing socks! I repeat: socks on stone ledges certainly twisted, slipped off, got lost.
The man in the video NEVER BENT DOWN TO STRAIGHTEN HIS SOCKS! This can't be happening! He's not wearing socks, but other shoes, it's obvious.

.
 

April 26, 2023, 07:04:11 AM
Reply #24
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anna_pycckux


The screenshot shows the forensic examination of Krivonischenko, who was found barefoot at the cedar. However, no damage to the feet, no wounds on the inner surface of the feet were found. Frostbite was also not detected.
CONCLUSION: THERE WAS NO DESCENT IN SOCKS AND BAREFOOT FROM THE TENT!!



 

April 26, 2023, 10:28:31 AM
Reply #25
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Олег Таймень


В этом видео Александр Алексеенков идёт, одев две пары носок и вставив между ними стельки.
In this video, Alekseyenkov is clearly not wearing socks! I repeat: socks on stone ledges certainly twisted, slipped off, got lost.
The man in the video NEVER BENT DOWN TO STRAIGHTEN HIS SOCKS! This can't be happening! He's not wearing socks, but other shoes, it's obvious.

These fantasies of yours about twisted and lost socks are no different from the fantasies of tourists bitten by gulag guard dogs. You are now slandering the researchers who are doing real experiments at the pass. You insult them by calling them liars. I repeat once again .. I don’t know Borzenkov and I can’t say anything about him. But in the video, Alexander Alekseenkov is wearing socks. He is an honest and decent person. You have no right to call him a liar. You undeservedly publicly insult people through the media. Delete this video and apologize to Alekseenkov.
Эти ваши фантазии по поводу скручивающихся и теряющихся носков ничем не отличаются от фантазий искусанных туристов собаками охраны гулага. Вы сейчас наговариваете на исследователей, которые занимаются реальными экспериментами на перевале. Вы их оскорбляете, называя лгунами. Ещё раз повторюсь.. Борзенкова я не знаю и ничего о нём сказать не могу. Но в видео идёт в носках Александр Алексеенков. Он честный и порядочный человек. У вас нет никакого права называть его лжецом. Вы незаслуженно публично оскорбляете людей через средства массовой информации. Удалите это видео и извинитесь перед Алексеенковым.
If a mountain comes towards you, and you are not Mohammed, then it is a rockfall.
 
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April 26, 2023, 11:31:35 AM
Reply #26
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Ziljoe


Here is Rustems sock . It has not fallen off.




If you look at 11:50 minutes you will see the socks.





 
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April 26, 2023, 11:46:02 AM
Reply #27
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anna_pycckux


Here is Rustems sock . It has not fallen off.
Krivonischenko socks all fell off.
 

April 26, 2023, 11:52:14 AM
Reply #28
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anna_pycckux


But in the video, Alexander Alekseenkov is wearing socks.
Почему ты решил, что на видео - Алексеенков? Я его не знаю и не могу утверждать. В моем видео он не упоминается.
Вопрос в том, что вы видите? Неужели так выглядят носки?

Why did you decide that Alekseyenkov was in the video? I don't know him and I can't say for sure. He is not mentioned in my video. The question is, what do you see? Do socks really look like that?
 

April 26, 2023, 12:00:31 PM
Reply #29
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anna_pycckux


You are now slandering the researchers who are doing real experiments at the pass. You insult them by calling them liars.
What is shown in Borzenkov's video in 2014 is not an experiment with socks. The experiment is when socks are shown before jogging on a 1.5-kilometer-long slope - and after. What were the socks and feet after running from the tent to the cedar. This is not in Borzenkov video!!