June 17, 2024, 04:21:40 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: The radioactive trace on the Dyatlov Pass  (Read 11248 times)

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March 21, 2024, 05:41:39 PM
Reply #30
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GlennM


Much is being made of the question of radioactive contamination, I suppose this is meant to indicate some sort of military test, or accident. Lets say it does. Radiation should be found in the environment where the clothes were found as a function of radioactive decay. It would be widespread.I recall that during the initial search and during latter day investigations, radiation detection gear was used. It produced nothing that raised an alarm then or now. Lets take a wild ride and imagine some isotope was made in the USSR and was going to buy freedom for the hikers with the CIA. Do we really believe this is something to be carried around in a pocket? Do we really believe radio technicians got this material from their comrades in the reactor?  I'll bet radium for glow in the dark watches, clocks and the like was easier to come by.

My suspicion is that the rescuers had the detection equipment on hand as prospectors. They might have been curious to know if any in the group were prospecting too...for souvenier mineral samples.
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

March 22, 2024, 06:12:47 AM
Reply #31
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gunmat


Agreed. I'm not sure if it was done intentionally, but the hype around radioactivity distracts attention from other more obvious things. You've mentioned murder, outlining a motive that stands on its own. I'll comment on this later. In my opinion, the "mystery" of radioactivity should be taken off the table and archived under the label "just for educational purposes".
 
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May 04, 2024, 11:22:47 AM
Reply #32
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Teddy

Administrator
I solicited an opinion from someone who is currently a NPP safety consultant. She read the criminal case and responded but does not want her name to be mentioned:
=======================
XX: It is difficult to draw a conclusions. There is not enough information. Did the students have classes and exercises in nuclear physics? In those years, the rules were not very strict and it is possible that they got infected in the laboratories.
It's a pity they didn't do an isotopic analysis. Just beta contamination, more like work/test/experiment contamination. We o not know exactly what the radioactive material is, for example, Cs-137 (cesium) or another substance - strontium.
Teddy: The one the contaminated clothes belong to was a nuclear physics student (Kolevatov).
XX: Perhaps he contaminated the rest.
Teddy: But only his clothes were contaminated, he and one more participant who worked on Chelyabinsk-40 when there was an accident (Krivonischenko).
XX: Most likely, this is the reason. In those years, there were still no such strict rules for safe work with radioactive substances.
 

May 04, 2024, 08:30:10 PM
Reply #33
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GlennM


It reduces to three possibilities 1. They brought it with them ( from work or school) 2. They acquired it from the environment ( prospecting and naturally radioactive environmental exposure 3. They were contaminated from radioactive fallout. Of the three scenarios, only the third, radioactive fallout links to a reason the ended up as they did. There is nothing in the record indicating widespread radioactive contamination in the area then or now. No rocket debris has been identified. I submit the whole matter of radiation, geiger counters and suspicious death is a red herring.
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

May 05, 2024, 03:52:40 AM
Reply #34
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Axelrod


XX: We do not know exactly what the radioactive material is, for example, Cs-137 (cesium)
I am gradudte of Moscow Intitute of physics and technology, .
It so happened that on the first day of my first year, September 1, at 8 pm, I was writing a test in nuclear physics. but a was working as phogrammer in Multimedia Technologies. Therefore, I am familiar with this situation only from old memory.

When researching this situation, espacialy in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesium-137 i see

Caesium-137 has a half-life of about 30.05 years.[1] About 94.6% decays by beta emission to a metastable nuclear isomer of barium: barium-137m (137mBa, Ba-137m). The remainder directly populates the ground state of 137Ba, which is stable. Barium-137m has a half-life of about 153 seconds, and is responsible for all of the gamma ray emissions in samples of 137Cs. Barium-137m decays to the ground state by emission of photons having energy 0.6617 MeV.[8] A total of 85.1% of 137Cs decay generates gamma ray emission in this manner.

Now lets' see https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-371-377
Sheet 373
Alpha particles and gamma quants were not detected.

So, Cesium 137 is not suitable for this situation.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2024, 04:04:30 AM by Axelrod »
 

May 05, 2024, 06:01:50 AM
Reply #35
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GlennM


Again, radioactivity was, in miniscule amounts detected on them, not in them. This is not central to the question of their demise. It is a distraction. The discussion is a learned one though.
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

May 06, 2024, 05:28:52 PM
Reply #36
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KathleenDSmith1


Everyone and Teddy:

Found this article/images in Google :Historic Images Part Number: mjc18542.....sending an image but not a photo...when click on this 'EBAY" will not allow to copied image.   Maybe this part number or if you could the images can help you with "What might had happened"


Thanks
Kathleen Dee Smith

 

May 06, 2024, 10:52:30 PM
Reply #37
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Teddy

Administrator
Found this article/images in Google :Historic Images Part Number: mjc18542.....sending an image but not a photo...when click on this 'EBAY" will not allow to copied image.

The link is https://www.ebay.com/itm/354924328840
Right click, Save image as



« Last Edit: May 07, 2024, 04:06:51 AM by Teddy »
 
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May 07, 2024, 04:24:34 AM
Reply #38
Online

Teddy

Administrator
I solicited an opinion from someone who is currently a NPP safety consultant. She read the criminal case and responded but does not want her name to be mentioned:
=======================
XX: It is difficult to draw a conclusions. There is not enough information. Did the students have classes and exercises in nuclear physics? In those years, the rules were not very strict and it is possible that they got infected in the laboratories.
It's a pity they didn't do an isotopic analysis. Just beta contamination, more like work/test/experiment contamination. We o not know exactly what the radioactive material is, for example, Cs-137 (cesium) or another substance - strontium.
Teddy: The one the contaminated clothes belong to was a nuclear physics student (Kolevatov).
XX: Perhaps he contaminated the rest.
Teddy: But only his clothes were contaminated, he and one more participant who worked on Chelyabinsk-40 when there was an accident (Krivonischenko).
XX: Most likely, this is the reason. In those years, there were still no such strict rules for safe work with radioactive substances.

Askinadzi answered me in a private mail. He browsed our forum and said that a lot of information needs correction and/or revision. He is still more comfortable giving me his comments in mails and I will post (translate) them for you.
===========================
Да, нам читали курс «Ядерная физика» (для информации – нам читали девять (!!) разных физик), однако никаких практических или лабораторных работ не было.
Следует учитывать, что Кривонищенко был строителем, он не работал на основном производстве. Авария произошла в 1957 году, к 1959 году было проведено несколько актов дезактивации территории «Маяка». Уровень радиации снизили практически до естественного.

Я внимательно прочитал размышления Игоря Павлова и полностью согласен с ним.
«Поэтому измерить или увидеть что-то на образцах, которые подверглись облучению в принципе невозможно (естественно, пока не начались симптомы лучевой болезни).
Когда говорится о гистологических образцах, я это понимаю, как образцы человеческих органов, подготовленные для гистологического исследования. Т.е. тонкие срезы для исследования под микроскопом. В УД есть результаты гистологических исследований для последней четверки.
Левашов исследовал не гистологические образцы (в понимании выше), а золу от образцов человеческих тканей. Т.е формально это не есть образцы для гистологических исследований. Гистологические образцы не передавались на радиометрическую экспертизу.
Исследования Левашова установили факт незначительного радиоактивного загрязнения образцов человеческих тканей. Это значит, что каким-то образом изотопы оказались в образцах = в организме человека».
 
А теперь моё мнение о проблеме радиоактивности.
Иванов затребовал исследование на радиоактивность, проявив инициативность и не согласовывая это ни с кем. Левашов ответил на его любопытство. Но специалисты, которые тогда понимали результаты лучше Иванова, объяснили ему, что он получил «мыльный пузырь». Этим всё дело и кончилось. Если бы были получены значимые результаты, то дальнейшие исследования, более глубокие, непременно бы были продолжены. А так, зашили результаты в дело, засекретили всё дело…и успокоились на долгие годы. А поисковики в лихом азарте стали сочинять небылицы, что делают и до сих пор!
===========================
Yes, we had "Nuclear Physics" course (for information, we were taught by nine (!!) different physicists), but there was no practical or laboratory work.
It should be taken into account that Krivonischenko was a builder; he did not work in the main production. The accident occurred in 1957; by 1959, several acts of decontamination of the Mayak territory had been carried out. The radiation level was reduced almost to natural levels.

I carefully read Igor Pavlov’s thoughts and completely agree with him.
"Therefore, it is in principle impossible to measure or see anything on samples that have been exposed to radiation (naturally, until symptoms of radiation sickness begin).
When we refer to histological samples, I understand this as samples of human organs prepared for histological examination. These are thin sections for examination under a microscope. The case files contain the results of histological studies for the last four.
Levashov did not examine histological samples (as understood above), but ash from human tissue samples. That is, formally these are not samples for histological studies. Histological samples were not submitted for radiometric examination.
Levashov's studies established the fact of minor radioactive contamination of human tissue samples. This means that somehow the isotopes ended up in the samples = in the human body."
 
And now my opinion about the radioactive contamination.
Ivanov requested a radioactivity test, showing initiative and without coordinating this with anyone. Levashov answered his curiosity. But the specialists, who then understood the results better than Ivanov, explained to him that he had received "soap bubble" (meaning nothing of importance). That was the end of the matter. If significant results had been obtained, then further, deeper studies would certainly have been continued. And so, they filed the results into the case, classified the whole matter... and cooled down for many years. And the searchers, in their wild excitement, began to invent fables, which they still do to this day!
« Last Edit: May 07, 2024, 04:31:21 AM by Teddy »
 
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May 07, 2024, 04:48:05 AM
Reply #39
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Ziljoe


Excellent teddy, say thanks to Askinadzi.

I think many fables have been made. Even the story of the clothes glowing which lead to the said tests didn't make sense. 
 

May 07, 2024, 05:16:40 AM
Reply #40
Online

Teddy

Administrator
I think many fables have been made. Even the story of the clothes glowing which lead to the said tests didn't make sense.

This is funny borderline insane.
 

May 07, 2024, 06:41:59 AM
Reply #41
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Ziljoe


This is how rumours start , It's from :

Interview with Stanislav Evgenievich Bogomolov, author of the article "Mystery of the fireballs", published in the "Uralskiy Rabochiy" (en. Ural Worker) in 1990 on July 8

Lev Ivanov in your article says that he brought Geiger counter to the pass. In personal communication with you, did Lev Ivanov tell you who told him, indicated or otherwise hinted to bring a Geiger counter to the pass and measure the level of radiation? Quote from your article:
"I did not work out the version about the light balls. I only managed to conduct a radiation examination. Even had to carry on location a device in a large wooden box.
- Geiger counter?
- Yes, it looks like it. It was clicking a lot... I am sure there was radiation. But nobody told me how much, and I didn't found out."

Answer
"No, he did not say anything about why he decided to check their clothes for radiation. He changed the topic. Much later, almost this year, I learned from a lawyer, that another lawyer told him that Ivanov ordered this examination because he noticed how the hikers' clothes which lay on his floor in his office were glowing."
« Last Edit: May 07, 2024, 06:48:06 AM by Teddy »
 
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May 08, 2024, 01:50:41 AM
Reply #42
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Axelrod


It is possible that it was not the clothes that glowed, but the compass or clock hands
 

May 08, 2024, 07:17:02 AM
Reply #43
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GlennM


" Soap bubble", a clever use of the language. I like it. A geiger counter was at hand. Why not use it, if for no other reason than to pass a few idle moments, or appear to be thorough? Then again, by using the detector on human remains, it is natural for someone in authority to question why. That, in and of itself, produces answers and poses a question which is going to make things worse for all concerned. Even now, six decades later, the soap bubble has not popped. It was Nature, not Man made radioactive substances that precipitated the tragedy.
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

May 08, 2024, 09:12:50 AM
Reply #44
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Axelrod


It was Nature, not Man made radioactive substances that precipitated the tragedy.
With the same success we can say - my wife did not cheat on me!
 

May 08, 2024, 12:28:01 PM
Reply #45
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GlennM


We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

May 24, 2024, 06:52:23 PM
Reply #46
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KathleenDSmith1


Everyone and Teddy

I was viewing in Google again and this about KGB, Russian Spies and I came across George Koval Wikipedia...I will copied and paste a section,
I found what you might been looking for  "Atomic Spies"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cedar_(KGB) (useful information)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasili_Mitrokhin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_spies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Koval

Koval was transferred from Oak Ridge to a top-secret lab in Dayton, Ohio on June 27, 1945, where polonium initiators were fabricated. The world's first atomic bomb was detonated in New Mexico on July 16 of that year. Atomic bombs were dropped on Japan on August 6 and 9. The Soviet Union responded by increasing efforts to develop its own atomic bomb. While the American Central Intelligence Agency estimated the Soviets would not succeed until 1950–53, the first Soviet atomic bomb was detonated on August 29, 1949. The initiator for the plutonium bomb was, according to Russian military officials, "prepared to the 'recipe' provided by military intelligence agent Delmar [Koval]".[2]: 45 



Thanks
Kathleen dee Smith



« Last Edit: May 26, 2024, 04:54:01 AM by KathleenDSmith1 »
 

May 26, 2024, 07:23:43 AM
Reply #47
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KathleenDSmith1


Everyone and Teddy,


Sending two images...one image is Alamos desert New Mexico, look familiar ...this is regarding Klaus Fuchs "Atomic Spy"... be careful "Fuchs" became a controlled  schizophrenia'







Thanks
KathleenDee Smith
« Last Edit: May 26, 2024, 07:39:53 AM by KathleenDSmith1 »
 

June 03, 2024, 02:03:45 PM
Reply #48
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KathleenDSmith1


Everyone and Teddy:

I have bit of information regarding January 2nd 1959 ...don't know of radioactive trace,....Soviet Union was experimenting and water could have been contaminated in which the last 4 hikers were found???...




Thanks
Kathleen Dee Smith
 

June 04, 2024, 04:42:23 AM
Reply #49
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WinterLeia


My major problem comes from the fact that Ivanov couldn’t just seem to tell the truth about what happened or why he ordered the test. The whole thing, as it was handled by those in authority, just seemed off. If we can think up innocent explanations for why the radioactive tests were positive for high levels of radiation on the clothes, why couldn’t they? If we can look at the tests and say there’s nothing really there, then why couldn’t Ivanov just explain that years later? Why couldn’t he just explain that someone took a Geiger counter up to do some prospecting? Why would he think that would be more suspicious than the lies he told? They couldn’t check their records and determine that Yuri Kri was involved in the cleanup or something like that? Does anyone honestly believe Ivanov actually thought the tragedy was caused by sentient fireballs? Personally, I do not. His story does not make any sense. It’s full contradictions, omissions, can’t be proven, and caters to a popular theory among the public about governments covering up alien visitations. But he was the  lead investigator. We cannot simply dismiss his opinion as a flight of fancy or an uninformed guess. If he wasn’t hiding the fact that a fireball made an unscheduled visit on the hikers, then what was he hiding?

First, you have Ryan’s theory. I’m not an expert. But I will say his theory does do well handling a few problems that crop up  anytime government involvement regarding the radioactive tests is suggested. If they did it deliberately, then why let a Geiger counter anywhere near the site at all? It’s like, why dig up Zolotaryov and let people do DNA tests on him with no interference if you know they’ll find out it’s not him? It’s a bit more believable if it was a military test gone awry, which would still be their fault, but accidental. So they wouldn’t necessarily know beforehand that radiation was going to be a problem, especially if the Dyatlov group was on the edge of the disaster area or not where they expected to find them, which we know the second one was the case, at least in  regard to the specific area where the tent was set up.  But does it really make sense to believe that they wouldn’t have figured it out pretty quickly? They would then be required to go into cover-up mode.


However, for me, their response has always been along the lines of having no idea where the radiation came from and panicking rather than coming up with a measured response, which I feel like they would have been more equipped to do if they knew what happened, even if they were kind of slow about figuring out that the military accident they didn’t tell anyone about actually killed a group of hikers and not just a herd of reindeer that they thought originally, or something like that. if Ryan’s theory is correct, then it does explain why they would have been so clueless that they weren’t thinking clearly. And just for the record, I don’t think what was bothering Ivanov or by extension, the government, was the test results themselves, but the terrible injuries to the three hikers. That’s what perplexed and scared them, because he had no explanation, and science was not on their side. They were being told that a pile of snow falling on a person wouldn’t cause those injuries. So what else was there to explain it. They didn’t know, and as a result, couldn’t rule out that it wasn’t somehow tied to radiation tests, which were somehow tied to government involvement.

Here’s the problem with the theory. We need more proof. And it doesn’t, in my opinion, fit the known facts real well. A government coverup in this case cannot be taken as proof of involvement, not when you have a government that is so sensitive to any kind of criticism against them or anything that will tarnish their image that they will go into panic mode over wild stories that governments like the United States and Britain wouldn’t even bother to deign to notice. And my intention is not to compare them unfavorably to those governments. But questions of why speaks to motive. And just as with people, we have to know and take into account the government’s baseline response if we want to understand why they did something.
 

June 04, 2024, 03:09:33 PM
Reply #50
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Axelrod


In the fall of 2005, I bought myself a gamma radioactivity dosimeter for personal research, on the radio market in Moscow, it cost $50. I remember all this physics theory, such as the theory of music and solfeggio, although I don’t really do this.
When I listened to materials on the Dyatlov group, I noticed something that only beta radiation was detected, which my $50 device cannot detect. You need to fork out another amount of money or look specifically for it.
This is clear to me as a person who, in the 3rd year of the institute, took laboratory work on alpha radioactivity.
This is when 1 signal is caught in the natural background in 15 minutes.

I realized that my device was not suitable for going to the Dyatlov Pass and trying to determine something there.
On the other hand, there is always a natural background (the device should always beep, it’s like water with microbes), its absence is also strange. For example, there is a problem with the batteries inside, if not the circuitry. With bad batteries, the device shows half the radiation. (I thought so)


Second point, my dosimeter shows a background level of 6 to 26 microroentgens in the apartment and other houses (the norm is 13, but usually it was exceeded by 16). When I watched on YouTube at the end of April a foray into abandoned houses in the Chernobyl zone,
I saw a man standing on the balcony of a high-rise building, and the dosimeter showed 2800-2900 microroentgen of gamma radiation (the same gray BELLA dosimeter as mine). The background of the clothing that was sent by Ivanov for examination corresponds approximately to background 80. That is. under normal conditions this is an elevated background, which I have never observed with a meter, but this is not a consequence of a serious accident. This could be 20 m from Chernobyl, for example.

People who have not studied physics. when they start using such a device, housewives say funny things: “In different parts of our apartment, this device shows different radiation,” which makes me laugh.


Although the examination for Ivanov determined beta radiation for the organs of the victims and for their clothing, here we must remember the Russian proverb - “separate the flies from the cutlets.” Beta radioactivity of bodies at such low levels is not a consequence of exposure, but normal radiation exposure during its life, in the sense of consumption of potassium-40, carbon-14 (such as, for example, a person’s tanning in the sun). As I understand it, after the atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, at the time of irradiation, wooden houses were burning, under irradiation conditions, carbon-14 was formed from carbon-12, which flew in the atmosphere throughout the planet, the apple tree turned it into an apple through the process of photosynthesis, you ate the apple and part of it remains in you. Second varian - carbon dioxide high in the atmosphere under the influence of cosmic radiation. Levashov’s examination is silent on this point and only mentions potassium-40.

If there is radiation, this does not mean that it should not exist. Second examination: The radioactivity of clothing is strange, but how did it originate? Of course, cotton also contains carbon, but I think another reason (dust on clothes). Why didn't normal gamma radiation occur? It’s like, for example, I looked into the trash can in the yard, and there was only green grass or yellow sand instead of colorful garbage.

To determine what causes this radiation from 2-3 isotopes, you need to study reference books, as an option the decay of strontium-yttrium-zirconium, the decay of promethium-samarium and the decay of europium-gadolinium (radioactive numbers), I stopped studying further. Could it be hydrogen-tritium (interesting theories arise here), I am not yet competent to answer.

Universal devices for alpha, beta and gamma radiation, as I assume, are poorly sensitive to alpha and beta,
because the plastic housing is a significant barrier to this radiation.
Those. a device like Taimen’s in the video, with a plastic body. can detect beta radiation

I don’t even know what kind of device I should go with, maybe with this one (like a tennis table),
as it was in our laboratory work. In simple words, the examination for Ivanov was done in laboratory conditions,
and cannot be caught with a regular consumer device.

Why are such devices not sold? Because they are usually not specifically needed, because beta radiation is usually accompanied by gamma radiation, which penetrates better through obstacles and for which the universe is, as it were, transparent. I don’t know yet how dangerous it is.

The unit roentgen was introduced for x-rays, but is also used for gamma radiation
X-rays are supposedly an outdated unit of measurement. like Russian verst instead of meters.
There is also a system unit of sievert, but the "obsolete" roentgen continues to be widely used, as do the obsolete inches. I have not heard about the use of sieverts. At least the mention of sieverts causes discomfort. X-rays are not suitable for alpha and beta radiation; these radiations are measured in pulses or some other units. I don’t remember now, but you can’t easily find it in reference books. I can’t understand whether this is archaic (like using “dyne instead of newton”), or vice versa is the norm.


From what I studied at the age of 16-20 and memorized, like formulas and poems, now I have questions about many things.

For example, if the alpha particle is helium (2 protons + 2 neutrons), then where do the 2 electrons go when the atom decays?
The second point that I realized is that beta decay is not a process of decreasing the atomic number, but rather increasing it (in figurative language, this is a fusion reaction into a higher number). This is, for example, how a person loses weight but does not rejuvenate, but becomes a year older.

In general, the entire theory of atomic physics resembles the Dyatlov Pass theory. There are a lot of wild fantasies and controversial theories that are not studied in school (this theory may soon change), all sorts of Gibbs fields, and radiation physics is rather a peculiar branch of chemistry with a violation of the law of conservation of the original substance (in ordinary chemistry), from which normal physicists (for example, at our institute), specialists in physics, for example, in superconductivity or laser optics, try to brush it off. “Why are you offering us chemistry?”

====
Я в 2005 осенью году купил себе дозиметр гамма-радиоактивности для личных исследований, на радиорынке в Москве, это стоило 50 долларов.Я всю эту теорию физики помню, как например теорию музыки и сольфеджио, хотя реально я этим не занимаюсь.
Когда я слушал материалы по группе Дятлова, я обратил внимание на такую вещь, что обнаружена только бета-радиация, которую мой прибор за 50 долларов определит не сможет. Надо раскошелится на другую сумму денег или специально искать.
Это мне понятно как человеку, который на 3 курсе института проходил лабораторные работы по альфа-радиоактивности.
Это когда за 15 минут в природном фоне ловится 1 сигнал.

Я понял, что мой прибор не годится для того, чтобы ехать на перевал Дятлова и пытаться что-то там определить.
С другой стороны, природный фон всегда есть (прибор всегда должен пищать, это как вода с микробами), его отсутствие - тоже странность. Например, проблема с батарейками внутри, если не миркосхема. При плохих батарейках прибор показывает вдвое меньшее излучение. (мне так показалось)


Второй момент, мой дозиметр показывает в квартире и других домах фон от 6 до 26 микрорентген (норма 13, но обычно было её превышение 16). Когда я в конце апреля смотрел в youtube вылазку по заброшенным домам в чернобыльской зоне,
Я видел как человек стоял на балконе многоэтажки, и дозиметр показывал 2800-2900 микрорентген гамма-излучения (такой же серый дозиметр БЕЛЛА,как и мой). Фон одежды, которая была отправлена Ивановым на экспертизу, соответствует примерно фону 80. Т.е. в обычных условиях это завышенный фон, который я никогда не наблюдал счётчиком, но это и не последствие серьёзной аварии.Это может быть в 20 м от Чернобыля,напрмиер.

Люди, не изучавшие физику. когда начинают пользоваться таким прибором, домохозяйки говорят смешные вещи: "У нас в разных местах квартиры этот прибор показывает разную радиацию", от чего я смеюсь.


Хотя экспертиза для Иванова определила бета-излучение для органов погибших и для их одежды, здесь надо вспомнить такую русскую пословицу - "отделить мух от котлет". Бета-радиоактивность тел при таких малых - это не последствие воздействия, а нормальное облучение в течение его жизни, в смысле - потребление  калий-40, углерод-14 (как, например, загорелость человека на солнце). Как я это понимаю после атомных бомб в Хиросиме и Нагасаки на момент облучения горели деревянные дома, в условиях облучения из углерод-12  образовался углерод-14, который летал в атмосфере по всей планете, яблоня превратила его в яблоко по процессу фотосинтеза, яблоко вы скушали и часть его в вас осталось. Втойро вариан - углекислый газ высоко в атмосфере под воздействием космического излучения. Экспертиза Левашова это момент умалчивает и упоминает только калий-40.

Если радиация есть, это не означает, что её должно не быть. Вторая экспертиза: Радиоактивность одежды является странным, а как же она возникла? Конечно, хлопок тоже содержит углерод, но мне кажется другая причина (пыль на одежде). Почему не возникла обычная гамма-радиация? Это как например я посмотрел в мусорный ящик во дворе, а там только зелёная трава или жёлтый песок вместо разноцветного мусора.

Чтобы определить от чего этого радиация из 2-3 изотопов, надо изучать справочники, как вариант распад стронций-иттрий-цирконий, распад прометий-самарий  и распад европий-гадолиний (радиоактивые номера), дальше я перестал изучать. Может ли это быть водород-тритий (тут возникают интересные теории), я пока некомпетентен ответить.

Универсальные приборы на альфа, бета и гамма излучения, как я предполагаю, плохо чувствительны к альфа и бета,
потому что пластмассовый корпус является существенным препятствием для этого излучения.
Т.е. прибор, как у Тайменя на видео, с пластмассовым корпусом. может детектировать бета-излучение

Я даже не знаю, с каким прибором надо ехать, возможно с таким (типа теннисный столик),
как был у нас на лабораторных работах. Простыми словами, экспертиза для Иванова делалась в лабораторных условиях,
и обычном прибором для ширпотреба не ловится.

Почему не продаются такие приборы, потому что они обычно специально не нужны, потому что бета-радиация обычно сопровождается гамм-радиацией, которая лучше проникает через препятствия и для которой вселенная как бы прозрачна. Что там как опасно я пока не знаю.

Единица рентген была введена для рентгеновского излучения, но применяется также для гамма-излучения
Рентгены якобы устаревшая единица измерения. как например русская верста вместо метров.
Есть также системная единица измерения зиверты, но "устаревшие" рентгены продолжают широко использоваться, как и устаревшие дюймы. Про использование зивертов я не слышал.  По крайней мере, упоминание зивертов вызывает дисмкомфорт. Для альфа и бета излучения рентгены не подходят, эти излучения измеряются в импульсах или каких-то других единицах.  Сейчас  я не помню, а в справочниках это так просто не найдёшь быстро. Я не могу понять, или это архаизм (как использование "дина вместо ньютон), или наоборот норма.


Возможно я что-то представляю неправильно из того, что я написал.
Из того, что я изучал в 16-20 лет и запоминал, как формулы и стихотворения, сейчас у меня ко многому возникают вопросы.

Например, если альфа-частица это гелий (2 протона+2 нейтрона), то куда деваются 2 электрона при распаде атома?
Второй момент, который я осознал, что бета распад это процесс не уменьшения атомного номера, а наоборот его увеличение (образным языком, это реакция синтеза в больший номер). Это например, как человек сбрасывает вес но не омолаживается, а  становится на год старше.

Вообще вся теория атомной физики напоминает теорию с перевалом Дятлова. Очень много диких фантазий и спорных теорий, которую в школе не изучают (скоро эта теория может измениться), всякие там поля Гиббса, а физика радиации это скорее своеобразный раздел химии с нарушением закона сохранения исходного вещества (в обычной химии), от которого нормальные физики (например, у нас в институте), специалисты именно по физике, например, по сверхпроводимости или лазерной оптике, стараются отмахнуться. "Зачем вы нам химию предлагаете?"
 

June 06, 2024, 06:19:06 AM
Reply #51
Offline

GlennM


A radioactive trace is not an unknown compelling force.
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

June 06, 2024, 10:37:39 AM
Reply #52
Offline

Axelrod


A radioactive trace is not an unknown compelling force.
I accept both options. To understand the possible effects of radiation,
I need to read scientific articles. I found an article in Russian earlier, but it’s difficult for me to quote it here.
So I did a search in English, for example, here is reference to similar article.

https://inis.iaea.org/search/searchsinglerecord.aspx?recordsFor=SingleRecord&RN=35034526


META

The effect of electrons, neutron and gamma radiation on nitrocellulose
Heppell-Masys, K.M.
Excellence in the new millennium
2001

High nitrogen content nitrocellulose is mostly used as an explosive component in the fabrication of propellant. Slow evaporation of the stabiliser agents deteriorate the safe properties of these materials throughout the years, making them hazardous to handle well beyond their shelf lives. The irradiation may neutralize and convert the stocks of aged and unstable nitrocellulose explosives into less nitrated hence non-explosive substance.
 

June 08, 2024, 09:08:19 PM
Reply #53
Offline

GlennM


Nitrocellulose is gun cotton or the propellant in bullets. The post suggests thst old ammunition is more unstable due to vapor leakage and weaker still if exposed to radiation. OK.
We are not going to suppose that still camera film in sub zero weather is going to spontaneously combust. We are not going to believe the hikers had ammunition, explosive camera film, a film reel of state secrets, nor Symphony in Gold squirreled away in their gear.
Bad weather and a slab slip are much better explanations, yes? Or, am I somehow missing the point?
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

June 09, 2024, 12:22:55 AM
Reply #54
Offline

Axelrod


The film "Golden Symphony" (1955) is available on YouTube, lasts 96 minutes and consists of probably 10 parts, each weighing 2 kg. This film was made in 1956-58 from cellulose acetate, which burns at 500 * C and is not very dangerous.

The film "There is such a guy" "Among the people" (1939) by Maxim Gorky is the same length, it is a black and white film, and can be viewed at the link on Wikipedia. Most likely, it is made from nitrocellulose, which is fire hazardous and burns at 120*C. In addition to being a fire hazard, such film is highly toxic, especially when a lack of oxygen produces carbon monoxide (50% of smoke), nitrogen oxides (1/6 - 1/16) and hydrogen cyanide, which is toxic in small volumes.
It is unlikely that tourists could remove 1 reel out of ten.
I was surprised to find out all this when I studied this topic.
My mother has worked with movie cameras since 1970, when dangerous film was discontinued. But in the movie booth, as I remember, there was an iron door and there was nothing wooden.
My mother had 3 movie cameras at work for 8mm, 16mm (green) and 35mm (gray). The 8mm film camera has never been used.
The reels of the green movie camera rotated in plain sight, the reels of the large camera were covered with roofs with latches (hooks), which I remember well. Also on the top cover, there was a narrow vertical slot from which the film unwinds, apparently in order to understand that this part of the film will soon end, and it is necessary to switch to the next part.
All this equipment was installed in 1969 and worked until 1994 (when I was 17-18 years old).



there is the same film projector without these covers



Now my mother uses the camera lens as a magnifying glass. There is also a device for gluing 16 mm tape (I use it as a stand for the laptop power supply),
a piece of 35 mm film (like bookmarks) and filmstrips. We threw out all the film in 2010.

My mother worked as a director, but all the employees learned to use a movie camera when the projectionist Miron was laid off (he lived in a neighboring house and has already died). I sometimes rewound film, it’s like turning a sewing machine or a bicycle.
The last time I dealt with movie cameras was in 1998. In order to play a long film, it must be recharged on parallel cinema cameras every 10 minutes.

At our school the projectionist was a Jew, with whom my father knew well. One day he did not come to work on Sunday when he had to turn on the equipment at the polling station. And he was fired.
BUT I was more familiar with videotapes.
---

As for the snow slab, I think it also has a place in this story, but much later, at the last stage, then  Zolotaryov and Dubinina were found in May in a stream. There can’t be an avalanche on a tent, that’s always been said.

I think that specialists in medicine and radiation will be able to draw their own conclusions based on the examination of a criminal case if they are given a picture of the events. Beta elements could be an isotope of rubidium or radium, but I think such elements have no place in this story.
Judging by the medical diagnosis, the tourists had central cyanosis (the classification also includes peripheral cyanosis), but this was never mentioned. Exposure to nitric acid vapor is also possible, this has been said many times.
So far, these experts do not know how to work using deductive methods.

If you think that the tourists got a movie @Symphonie in Gold@ that they watched at the club, or they used the film in cameras, or the film (as 16 mm) was from the UPI studio, this indicates that you are thinking strangely with your head. It irritates me to communicate with such people. The most funny vesrion supposes film diameter for 16 mm bu used in photocameras

I wrote an epigraph from Pushkin exactly about my relative here
I wrote to his wife before HERs death recently that you didn’t solve anything, you didn’t achieve what you wanted, but you created such a gorgeous mythical story.


[–] And the guys died, some on the mountain, some in the forest... Indeed, the hypothesis very convincingly proves all the damage. This version has been suffered for years, and, according to Moisei Abramovich, it covers everything. He said this: “We need to convey this guess to people, while I’m alive.” The version is certainly good, materialistic, but there is one discrepancy in it: in the place where the tent stood, and on the entire visible slope, that is, above and below, right and left, in principle there can be no talk of any avalanche there. Any specialist will confirm this.


  My uncle of the highest codes,
   When he became very ill,
   He claimed respect from all his folks,
   And hadn't invented better thing....
   He is exemplary for others,
« Last Edit: June 09, 2024, 01:23:01 AM by Axelrod »
 

June 09, 2024, 12:59:52 PM
Reply #55
Offline

GlennM


Axelrod, thank you for a full reply and insight into your family's involvement with film projection. I too can attest to the robust construction of a film projection booth.

I do not think anyone supports the idea of a classical avalanche demolishing the tent. A localized slab slide explains the condition of the tent but not the actions of the hikers. The possibility of nitric acid burns is an interesting one. It would explain the discoloration  of some corpses, the removal and re dressing of the corpses and  central cyanosis. Cyanide poisoning is far to fast acting and carbon monoxide produces cherry red lips because it binds with hemoglobin to produce a stable compound, thus inhibiting gas exchange in the lungs.

We are all interested to see if Teddy can defend her theory with new found evidence. I believe there is nothing moremto be learned on th3 slope of 1079.
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

June 10, 2024, 02:50:28 AM
Reply #56
Offline

Axelrod


There is no point in going for gamma radiation data and reporting this data to us. as Shamil reports
(from 5 to 25 microroentgen - this is the natural background of gamma radiation),
If the examination of Levashov says in 2 places about only beta radiation, which will be difficult to find now.

https://chemicalsafety.ilo.org/dyn/icsc/showcard.display?p_lang=ru&p_card_id=1709&p_version=2


The card doesn’t say about the effects of radiation, but it could also be

I think we need to explore the mountain around for magnetic anomalies, lightning attraction in summer,
what can be required for such phenomena. like St. Elmo's fires in the mountains during a blizzard, the so-called corona discharges,
and thereby contribute to electrification of clothing and detonation from electrostatic discharge.

It seems very likely that the detonation occurred at the moment when they were changing clothes, taking off their sweaters, and shaking dusty blankets.

Recently my sister sent me a text, the original of which I will look for:


About 300 operating Boeing aircraft could explode in mid-air due to a critical defect – Daily Mail, citing the US Federal Aviation Administration. On Boeing 777 aircraft operated by United and American Airlines, static electricity has been detected near the fuel tanks, which can cause the fuel tanks to ignite and detonate. A request to correct the defect was sent to the manufacturer back in March 2024, but it is not known whether Boeing has corrected the problem.



« Last Edit: June 10, 2024, 03:06:21 AM by Axelrod »
 

June 10, 2024, 06:47:10 AM
Reply #57
Offline

GlennM


We appreciate that there was burn damage on clothes, but none on or in the tent. Are they to be considered linked or parallel to each other?
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

June 10, 2024, 08:40:13 AM
Reply #58
Offline

Axelrod


In the film of Komsomolakaya Pravda
"Dyatlov Pass. The End of History",



Peter Bartholomew speaks (in position 5-45)
"The problem is that it flared up on our previous trip.
This is our fault, because there were severe frosts, the stove had to be heated the whole night, and the man on duty slept, and he piled too much firewood, and the outlet pipe became hot, and sparks were flying...

It seemed to have dried out in the frost, and it burst into flames... And there were holes not only in the place where the pipe came out. They were all along the tent. We then re-stitched that end; during the hike we made a temporary patch from a blanket, sewed up this place. And when we returned, Igor Dyatlov was the one who repaired it himself....@

Ivanov asked Bartolomey about this and obtained such explanation...