Another interesting version

[GlennM]

We all appreciate that the whole matter being debated on this thread is peripheral and wide off the mark in explaining the tragedy. We may believe that individuals may be unreliable, but the understanding of the situation does not depend on one person, nor one diary. Rather it is the gestalt of all input. Sifting information and picking the nits suggests a narrow focus and point of view. We must be mindful of the big picture. For me, the big picture is that bad things happen to good people and Nature is indifferent to suffering. The concept is simple, things change and only the strong survive. What changes and who may survive are controlled by Nature. If it works in our favor, good luck. If not, bad luck and any number of swear words. Arguing over street maps seems a waste intelligence for our dedicated forum.

[Axelrod]

I do not support myself neither the vacuum bomb version (like a thermobaric weapon), nor the infrasound version.
I think both are fairy tales. If Mochalov will talk about infrasound and how people are thrown out of the 10th floor, I will also copy such texts here as an interesting example.

My mother worked with an office on the 3rd floor in school 22 on the street. Vokzalnaya in 1953-1961, 15 minutes from the station. This is 1 km or a little more, but not 500 meters (by Borzenkov (c)).
we read the text. The picture you showed is not this school.

As for kindergarten 47, I’m not sure that it was a school, it’s just a guess.
I'm not writing school, I'm writing kindergarten 47. Such a city could have 47 kindergartens, but not 47 schools.One advantage is that it is located near the station and the water tower.
Such a city could have 47 kindergartens, but not 47 schools.

If this kindergarten was assigned to the New Village,
perhaps this is a mistake by the compiler of the text (the Old village is a metallurgical plant, the new village is everything else in his understanding. He had no Wikipedia to check. Wikipedia appeared only 20 years ago.

In general, we are pointing out the secrets of history indiscriminately. as if it were an accurate document, I wouldn’t. The director of the museum, where this text about school 47 comes from, Vera Bellendir, believes that in tent at the Dyatlov pass were also Lelyushenko’s children (son #10 and daughter #11, who were taken out first), however. After this message about Lelyushenko’s children, I consider it useless to trust any information from Vera Bellendir about Chuprakov’s school and house and where he is.

The school was located in the New Village in Chuprakov’s house near the water tower of the station.
There were two small shops nearby.

how could the water tower be located 1 km from the station. Usually such structures are located 50-100m from the station.

=================
Я не поддерживаю версию на вакуумной бомбы (как термобарическое оружие), ни версию инфразвука.
Я считаю, что то и другое сказки.  Если Мочалов будет рассказывать про инфразвук и как люди выбрасываются с 10 этажа, я такие тексты тоже буду копировать сюда как интеерсный пример.

Моя мама работала с кабинетом на 3 этаже в 22 школе на ул. Вокзальная в 1953-1961 годах в 15 мин от вокзала. Это 1 км или немного больше, но не 500 метров (как подсчитал господин Борзенков). Та картинка, которую вы показали , там деревянный дом 2 этажа. Непонятно, что это такое.

Насчёт детского сада 47, я не уверен, что это была школа, это как предположение. Остальные предположения ещё хуже.
В таком городе могло быт 47 детских садов, но не 47 школ.
Я не пишу школа, я пишу детский сад 47. Одно преимущество - он находится рядом от вокзала и от водонапорной башни.

Если этот детский сад поместили в Новый посёлок, возможно это ошибка составителя текста (Старый посёлок - Надеждинский металлургический завод, новый посёлок - всё остальное в понимании автора текста). Тогда Википедии ещё не было, чтобы свериться. Википедия появилась 20 лет назад.

В общем, тайны истории, и так огульно указывать пальцем. как будто это точный документ, я бы не стал. Директриса музея, откуда этот текст про 47 школу,  Вера Беллендир, считает, что на перевале были дети Лелюшенко (сын  дочка, которых вывезли первыми), впрочем. После разговора про детей Лелюшенко я считаю бесполезным доверять любой информации про школу и дом Чупракова и где он находится.

Школа располагалось в Новом поселке в доме Чупракова у водонапорной башни вокзала.
Рядом находились два небольших магазинчика.

каким образом водонапорная башня могла находиться в 1 км от вокзала. Обычно такие сооружения находятся в 50-100 м от вокзала, он не в 1 км.

[Axelrod]

The concept is simple, things change and only the strong survive.

What about Yudin?

[GlennM]

Yuden became unwell and could not continue - things change
Yuden lived - the strong survived.

Being strong has little to do with strength. Sometimes the strength comes from fortunate circumstance. In his case, having an illness in that circumstance had survival value. Why? Yuri learned to heed his personal warning signs. This reflects intelligence. Intelligence is a favorable characteristic and has survival value in that situation.

If you disagree, then just say the sick kid got damned lucky. Nature is indifferent.

[Axelrod]

Discovery of Veniamin Mochalov Dyatlov Pass. Korotaev saw that very training ground! (February 1, 2024):
   
[-] There is an expression - truth is born in a dispute. Yesterday an event occurred that confirms that truth can indeed be born in a dispute.

This is what happened... Yesterday I made another discovery, and I made it thanks to one argument...

The question was: And if Otorten had a training ground, then why didn’t the pilots who participated in the search for Dyatlov’s group see the training ground there? Well, what could I answer? I replied that they actually saw this training ground! But the pilots simply did not understand that this was a military training ground. The fact is that the test site did not look from a height exactly like test sites usually look like, where, for example, shells or bombs are exploded... At this test site there should be craters in the ground from explosions. But the testing ground where vacuum bombs are tested doesn’t look like that. The fact is that a vacuum bomb does not explode on the ground. It explodes at a height above the ground. And when it explodes, a shock wave occurs. This wave also goes down to the ground. And there is snow on the ground. Well, since it was winter. And what happens as a result of the impact of a blast wave on snow? There's a dent in the snow! That is, a wave - it seems to squeeze the snow. Well, a dent is formed, probably of some kind of round shape.

So, if some pilot flying over the training ground saw these dents in the snow, how would he guess that this was a military training ground? There are no funnels! There are only dents in the snow. That is, a pilot flying over the training ground simply will not understand that some kind of weapon is being blown up here. He may guess that something was blown up here, but he won’t understand: What did they blow up? Why are there no funnels? Why are there any dents in the snow? So the pilots saw this training ground and the dents in the snow, but did not understand anything...

This is how the dispute arose. And after the argument, I suddenly started thinking. I remembered some of the information I had heard before. Namely, I remembered that once investigator Korotaev in one interview told how he flew from the pass back to Ivdel, and he flew together with prosecutor Tempalov. And so they were flying, and there in one place they saw some holes in the snow from the helicopter. Tempalov saw these pits and said: it looks like something was being blown up here. The fact is that Tempalov was an artilleryman when he served in the army. And so he saw these holes in the snow and accordingly said that it looked like something was being blown up here.

And so I remembered this interview with Korotaev and thought about it. What happens? What Korotaev and Tempalov saw was clearly a testing ground where vacuum bombs were tested! There were dents in the snow. But what seemed strange to me: after all, look, Korotaev and Tempalov were flying from the pass to Ivdel. The training ground was located north-west of the pass, and Korotaev and Tempalov were flying south-east of the pass, do you understand? That is, it turns out to be some kind of nonsense! How could they see this training ground if it was located northwest of the pass? So they couldn’t see this training ground...

I continued thinking and remembered something else. I remembered Sogrin’s interview, this is one of the participants in the search. So, Sergei Sogrin was in Axelrod’s group, which was looking for traces of the Dyatlov group on Otorten. On the evening of February 28, Axelrod’s group left Otorten, and they flew by helicopter to Ivdel. And Sogrin, telling all this, mentioned that Tempalov was also flying with them. You see, Tempalov was flying with them on the same helicopter!

Question: How could Tempalov fly with Axelrod’s group to Ivdel if Tempalov was not at Otorten, but at the pass (15 km to the south). Well, accordingly, the helicopter that brought Tempalov to the pass was also there. Well, I didn’t think long about this. I understood how it happened that Axelrod’s group flew to Ivdel together with Tempalov. And it turned out like this: Tempalov, which means the helicopter landed at the pass, and after that the helicopter flew to Otorten to pick up Axelrod’s group. And the helicopter was just flying over that same training ground, you know? If you look at the map, the helicopter flew either over the test site itself or over its eastern outskirts.

And now it becomes clear to me how it happened that Korotaev and Tempalov flew to Ivdel, but saw the training ground. So they didn’t fly directly to Ivdel! They first flew to Otorten, and just flew near that same training ground. That's why they saw these pits in the snow. And so my discovery sounds like this: Korotaev saw exactly the same training ground that Dyatlov’s group entered and where Dubinina, Zolotaryov, Kolevatov died.

This is, one might say, an incredible discovery that I made. Korotaev, it turns out, saw the training ground with his own eyes! This once again confirms that Otorten had a training ground there. It was located, as I already said, 7 km south of Otorten and, accordingly, 9 km northwest of the pass. This is my next discovery!



Открытие Вениамина Мочалова Перевал Дятлова. Коротаев видел тот самый полигон! (1 февраля 2024):
   
[-] Есть такое выражение - в споре рождается истина. Вчера произошло событие, которое подтверждает, что действительно в споре может родиться истина.

Вот что произошло... Вчера я совершил очередное открытие, и совершил его благодаря одному спору...
Вопрос был такой: А если у Отортена был полигон, то почему лётчики, которые участвовали в поисках группы Дятлова, не видели там полигон? Ну что я мог ответить? Я ответил, что они видели на самом деле этот полигон! Но лётчики просто не поняли, что это военный полигон. Дело в том, что полигон выглядел с высоты не совсем так, как обычно выглядят полигоны, где взрывают, например, снаряды, какие-нибудь бомбы... На этом полигоне должны быть воронки в земле от взрывов. А вот полигон, где испытывают вакуумные бомбы, он выглядит не так. Дело в том, что вакуумная бомба - она же взрывается не на земле. Она взрывается на высоте над землёй. И когда она взрывается, то возникает ударная волна. Эта волна идёт вниз тоже, на землю. А на земле лежит снег. Ну, раз зима была. И что происходит в результате воздействия взрывной волны на снег? В снегу образуется вмятина! То есть, волна - она как бы снег сдавливает. Ну и образуется вмятина, вероятно, какой-то такой круглой формы.

Так вот, если какой-то лётчик, пролетавший над полигоном, увидел эти вмятины в снегу, то как он догадается, что это военный полигон? Воронок нету! Есть только вмятины в снегу. То есть, лётчик, пролетавший над полигоном, он просто не поймёт, что тут какое-то оружие взрывают. Он может так догадаться, что тут что-то взрывали, но он не поймёт: А что такое взрывали-то? Почему воронок нет? Почему какие-то вмятины в снегу? Так что лётчики видели этот полигон и вмятины в снегу, но ничего не поняли...

Вот такой спор возник. А после спора я вдруг задумался. Я вспомнил кое-что из информации, которую я слышал раньше. А именно, я вспомнил, что однажды следователь Коротаев в одном интервью рассказал, как он летел с перевала обратно в Ивдель, и летел он вместе с прокурором Темпаловым. И вот они летят, и там в одном месте они с вертолёта увидели на снегу какие-то ямы. Темпалов увидел эти ямы и сказал: а тут, похоже, что-то взрывали. Дело в том, что Темпалов был артиллеристом, когда служил в армии. И вот он увидел эти ямы в снегу и соответственно сказал, что тут, похоже, что-то взрывали.

И вот я вспомнил это интервью с Коротаевым и задумался. Что же получается? То, что видели Коротаев и Темпалов, это же явно полигон, где испытывали вакуумные бомбы! Там были вмятины в снегу. Но что мне показалось странным: ведь, смотрите, Коротаев и Темпалов летели с перевала в Ивдель. Полигон находился к северу-западу от перевала, а Коротаев и Темпалов летели на юго-восток от перевала, понимаете? То есть, какая-то несуразица получается! Как они могли увидеть этот полигон, если он находился на северо-западе от перевала? Так что не могли они видеть этот полигон...

Я продолжил думать и вспомнил ещё кое-что. Я вспомнил интервью Согрина, это один из участников поисков. Так вот, Сергей Согрин был в группе Аксельрода, которая искала следы группы Дятлова на Отортене. Вечером 28 февраля группа Аксельрода покинула Отортен, и они на вертолёте полетели в Ивдель. И Согрин, рассказывая всё это, обмолвился, что с ними ещё и Темпалов летел. Понимаете, с ними на том же самом вертолёте летел и Темпалов!

Вопрос: А как Темпалов мог лететь с группой Аксельрода в Ивдель, если Темпалов был не на Отортене, а на перевале (15 км южнее). Ну и соответственно вертолёт, который привёз Темпалова на перевал, тоже там же находился. Ну тут я уже недолго думал. Я понял, как это так получилось, что группа Аксельрода полетела в Ивдель вместе с Темпаловым. А это получилось так: Темпалов, значит, погрузился вертолёт на перевале, а после этого вертолёт полетел на Отортен, чтобы забрать группу Аксельрода. И вертолёт как раз пролетал над тем самым полигоном, понимаете? Если посмотреть по карте, то вертолёт пролетал или над самим полигоном, или над восточной его окраиной.

И теперь мне становится понятно, как так получилось, что Коротаев и Темпалов летели в Ивдель, но видели полигон. Так они же не напрямую в Ивдель полетели! Они сначала полетели на Отортен, и как раз пролетели около того самого полигона. Вот почему они видели эти ямы в снегу. И таким образом моё открытие звучит так: Коротаев видел как раз тот самый полигон, на который заходила группа Дятлова и на котором погибли Дубинина, Золотарёв, Колеватов.

Вот такое, можно сказать, невероятное открытие я совершил. Коротаев, оказывается, видел полигон своими глазами! Это ещё раз подтверждает, что там у Отортена был полигон. Он находился, как я уже говорил, на 7 км южнее от Отортена и соответственно на 9 км северо-западнее перевала. Такое моё очередное открытие!

[sarapuk]

Ms. Axelrod, now it is clear to me where you get so many incomprehensible and erroneous things. Instead of reading primary sources or at least competent scientific and technical literature, you follow all sorts of talkers like Mochalov and " Historical Губитель Destroyer Amateur " Garifulin.
I have not seen more illiterate videos on this topic for a long time.


Thank you WAB for keeping members and visitors feet firmly on the ground and reminding people not to drift off course

[GlennM]

I guarantee that anyone living within a hundred miles of a military base or test range knows it exists.  Vishay forester Rempel who counseled the tourists lived 40 miles from 1079. He cautioned Igor about weather, not bombs, nor restricted areas. This business of vaccum bombs does not ring true.

[Axelrod]

And what rings true?

[GlennM]

And what rings true?

Ah, that is the thing, isn't it?  Every single theory from Nature to Man is fraught with assumptions. If the hikers left the tent by their own accord, they were poorly clothed to do so. If they were driven out by others, they were too well dressed. If they were camped on the ridge, they should have stayed there. If they were camped in the woods, there is no good reason for three of them climbing up a hill to nothing they did not already have. Nothing is going to make a sane person walk a mile in snow without protecting hands and feet. No one is going to kick them out of their shelter without a fight. The injuries to the hikers does not exclude combat, but accidental damage fits better. There was no one around to fight with anyway.

Absolute truth, we may never know. Relative truth, we may achieve. Although not an absolute law, Occams Razor still works. A natural disaster of high winds, loose snow, bad location and inadequate protection is preferable, in my estimation than any vengeful attack or cover up. When those human generated things happen, there is a ripple effect of people affecting other people to ultimately produce a tangled web of deception. Conspiracy theorists have plucked at strands of the web for years. No spider has come out. Slippery snow driven by gale force winds would cause them to leave their tent. Lack of a sheltered fire would drive them to the forest. The need to wait out the storm would induce them to make a snow cave. The desire to get their shoes would induce 3 to return to the tent. Nature was indifferent.

[MDGross]

GlennM, I've tried for years to make an Occam's Razor type scenafio fit the circumstances of the hikers' deaths.  Certainly, the sudden occurrence of a gale force wind could have made it seem to the Dyatlov group that their tent was about to fly away like a sail. But no one who was so dangerously underdressed could walk nearly a mile in such freezing temperature and winds over 60mph. Severe hypothermia would happen iquickly. According to the National Weather Service's Wind Chill Index, at –20°F with winds at 60mph and above, an inadequately dressed person has less than 5 minutes before frostbite starts. Severe hypothermia and death wouldn't be far behind. Only Semyon and Tibo were properly dressed. The other seven, some of them even walking barefooted, would have no chance to reach the forest under such conditions.                                                                                                                                                             

[Axelrod]

I believe that the description from GlennM is suitable for some standard case, but the case with the Dyatlov group does not apply to the standard case, so we need to look for some non-standard solution for it.
Therefore, I believe that little of his text has anything to do with reality.

Figuratively speaking, if we can apply a certain Levenshtein metric (Levenshtein distance) to match the version of some imaginable vacuum bomb and an hurricane, then the version with a vacuum bomb will have fewer discrepancies with reality. In this case, the vision from GlennM should be consigned as to be sent to the dustbin of history as useless and harmful.

[Ziljoe]

GlennM, I've tried for years to make an Occam's Razor type scenafio fit the circumstances of the hikers' deaths.  Certainly, the sudden occurrence of a gale force wind could have made it seem to the Dyatlov group that their tent was about to fly away like a sail. But no one who was so dangerously underdressed could walk nearly a mile in such freezing temperature and winds over 60mph. Severe hypothermia would happen iquickly. According to the National Weather Service's Wind Chill Index, at –20°F with winds at 60mph and above, an inadequately dressed person has less than 5 minutes before frostbite starts. Severe hypothermia and death wouldn't be far behind. Only Semyon and Tibo were properly dressed. The other seven, some of them even walking barefooted, would have no chance to reach the forest under such conditions.                                                                                                                                                           

I'm not a 100% sure if the hikers were barefoot but here's a link to what I think is quite interesting , it's about walking or running in socks in extreme cold. It seems it can be done in reasonable comfort.

https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1507.msg24062#msg24062

[Ziljoe]

And here!!!!

Just looked at the links. https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1499.msg24409#msg24409

I think we can rule out one thing. The hikers could have walked to the ceder in socks without severe compromise.

[GlennM]

If KGB, disreputable. If military, disreputable, If escaped prisoners, disreputable. If Mansi, disrepitable. If geologists, disreputable. If government, disreputable. Everywhere I turn, the Soviet Communists, native tribes and govrnment workers are all disreputable. Must the hikers also be disreputable people? It is just too much! How about good people caught in bad weather conditions? That is the idea that makes sense to me.

[Ziljoe]

If KGB, disreputable. If military, disreputable, If escaped prisoners, disreputable. If Mansi, disrepitable. If geologists, disreputable. If government, disreputable. Everywhere I turn, the Soviet Communists, native tribes and govrnment workers are all disreputable. Must the hikers also be disreputable people? It is just too much! How about good people caught in bad weather conditions? That is the idea that makes sense to me.

True, I've forgotten the names but there was two other groups that got into trouble with the weather. One with a ripped or burnt tent and another group with frostbite.( Might be the same group).

If they were too found dead would we be blaming the locals, KGB, rockets etc. ?

There's endless similar examples of people taking clothes off , leaving tents , no shoes , poorly dressed. One thing in common with these similar stories is the weather.
This includes poor decisions, perhaps brought on by the conditions, some incidents happened very close to shelter but hypothermia plays a strange game with the human mind.

We still have the oddity of the ravine 4 under such a huge amount of snow . I can not see stagers digging through 4 meters of snow then burying 4 bodies , why? Why leave other hikers in full view?. If the ravine was empty of snow at the time of the incident why would stagers put them there , what would they bury them with.  Also ,why would any stagers leave the Hansel and Gretel trail of clothes and twigs that lead to the den, which is a few  meters away from the ravine 4?.

Noting else was found at the ceder to suggest the tent was pitched there. No cuttings or sawdust, no fire pit and no signs
of ski trails. It was the thawing of the snow
that revealed to the Mansi of activity in that area that lead to the den. Nothing else is reported.

I certainly don't think a natural standard solution should be put in the dustbin and that certainly isn't harmful?

If outsiders or stagers are involved then we must find evidence, this may be in paper work like teddy has researched or the fallen tree.

[anna_pycckux]

Veniamin Mochalov's version is unsubstantiated, implausible.
Veniamin does not provide any evidence, does not show maps and diagrams of the test site for vacuum bombs, does not submit documents, he has no links to scientific articles, no video evidence.   Everything he says is not confirmed by anything. This is just his personal, unconfirmed opinion. Allegedly, the investigator saw from a helicopter a piece of land on which craters were visible, as from explosions. Mochalov does not assume that these pits were formed as a result of geological seismic surveys, and not from vacuum bombs. A link is given to materials on geological exploration from the DyatlovPass forum.

[Axelrod]

According to Mochalov

Korotaev, it turns out, saw the training ground with his own eyes! This once again confirms that Otorten had a training ground there. It was located, as I already said, 7 km south of Otorten and, accordingly, 9 km northwest of the pass. This is my next discovery!

It was situated on territory of Komi ASSR, so General Lelyushenko (military commander of Perm and Sverdlovsk district) didn't know about it!

Rescuers was not allowed to walk around.
Only Abram Kikoin climbed Mt.Kholat(1079) in March. But he was silent! Or he didn't see the polygon in Komi through the mountains (see the map)!

[Ziljoe]

According to Mochalov

Korotaev, it turns out, saw the training ground with his own eyes! This once again confirms that Otorten had a training ground there. It was located, as I already said, 7 km south of Otorten and, accordingly, 9 km northwest of the pass. This is my next discovery!

It was situated on territory of Komi ASSR, so General Lelyushenko (military commander of Perm and Sverdlovsk district) didn't know about it!

Rescuers was not allowed to walk around.
Only Abram Kikoin climbed Mt.Kholat(1079) in March. But he was silent! Or he didn't see the polygon in Komi through the mountains (see the map)!

Interesting but how did they get supplies to this training ground, what about the Mansi? We are talking about Mansi hunting ground and looking after deer etc. Plus tourists student tourism?

[anna_pycckux]

Korotaev, it turns out, saw the training ground with his own eyes! This once again confirms that Otorten had a training ground there. It was located, as I already said, 7 km south of Otorten and, accordingly, 9 km northwest of the pass. This is my next discovery!

You, a Russian-speaking blogger, have inattentively watched my video. All of Mochalov's words have no confirmation. Please give me a link to an interview with Karataev, where he reports that he saw the military training ground with his own eyes!! If you do not have such a link, then the version is unfounded. In addition, no exploration work could be carried out at the site of the military training ground...

[Axelrod]

1) https://dyatlovpass.com/novokreschenov-2008-ru

PAGE3-LEFT:

GVN:then the prosecutor Vasily Ivanovich Tempalov, who was present at the examination of the tent, and flew on a helicopter over the area said: "What can I say, rockets had fallen, craters all around, I'm an artilleryman." he has been on the front-lines, a commander... batteries, 76 mm batteries, awarded with an order.

NAVIG: In what part did he see the craters during the flight?

GVN: In the same area, at the same time, on the same days.

NAVIG: There is no such information anywhere..

GVN: He also said: "There are craters there, I'm an gunner, I can tell when I see one!" said Vasiliy Ivanovich Tempalov, the prosecutor. This also led to a certain look at this event. It is clear that there is an explosion of a rocket, large or small, directed, whether it reached its target or not we can't say, of course, a test, not enemies...


НГВ:  дальше прокурор был Темпалов Василий Иванович, который присутствовал при экспертизе этой палатки, и вообще он принимал участие в облётах на вертолёте этой местности, говорит: "Да что и говорить тат ракеты падали, кругом воронки, я же артиллерист." он фронтовик, командир... батареи, 76 мм батареи, орденом награжден.



НАВИГ: В какой части он воронки видел при облете?

НГВ: Так же в той же местности, в тоже время, в эти же дни.

НАВИГ: Такой информации нигде нет.

НГВ: Он же говорил: "Там же воронки, я же артиллерист, что я не знаю что ли?" Василий Иванович Темпалов, прокурор, сказал.

PAGE3-RIGHT:
NAVIG: Did Tempalov report his observation about the craters somewhere?

GVN: Unlikely.
НАВИГ: А он (прим. ред: речь идет о Темпалове В.И.) свои заключения о воронках куда-нибудь сообщал?

НГВ: Вряд-ли.


2) https://dyatlovpass.com/evgeniy-okishev-2013
Interview with Evgeniy Okishev

PAGE1-RIGHT:
We applied with a letter signed by the Oblast Prosecutor to either the Prosecutor General of the USSR or the Federal – I don’t remember exactly now – asking to explain what really we were investigating into? And how it was related to radiation? Could it be so that even the top commandant of the Urals Military District knew nothing of any tests of armaments held there? In response to our letter, Deputy Prosecutor General, comrade Urakov came to meet with us

Мы обратились с письмом за подписью прокурора области то ли к генеральному, то ли, не помню, к республиканскому прокурору: мол, просим разъяснить, что мы тут все ж таки расследуем? И как это связано с радиацией? Не было ли там каких-то испытаний оружия, что неизвестно даже командованию Уральского военного округа?. В ответ на это письмо к нам приехал заместитель прокурора РФ товарищ Ураков

[anna_pycckux]

These are all words that someone has heard from someone. But there are official documents on the geological exploration carried out in these places, which means that the craters have an origin from geological explosions of the soil.

[Axelrod]

Военные цели могли быть оформлены как гражданские (геологические)

Северная Корея заработала 167 миллионов долларов на экспорте париков и накладных ресниц

Они продаются по всему миру под видом сделанных в Китае. По данным таможни Китая, экспорт из Северной Кореи в страну в 2023 году вырос более чем вдвое, при этом парики и ресницы составили почти 60 процентов от всего объема поставок.  В прошлом году в КНР было ввезено 1680 тонн северокорейских накладных ресниц, бород и париков.

Поскольку текст сообщения содержит военную тайну, я не перевожу его на английский.

*****************************
This post in English:

Military targets could be registered as civilian (geological)

North Korea earns $167 million from export of wigs and false eyelashes

They are sold all over the world under the guise of being made in China. North Korea's exports to the country more than doubled in 2023, with wigs and eyelashes accounting for nearly 60 percent of total shipments, according to China Customs. Last year, 1,680 tons of North Korean false eyelashes, beards and wigs were imported into China.

Since the text of the message contains military secrets, I do not translate it into English.

[Axelrod]

- Today Anna Russkikh made another attempt to refute my version of the vacuum bomb. So, to begin with, I must say the following: only a vacuum bomb design engineer can refute my version of a vacuum bomb, and no one else! To refute something, you must at least understand the subject that you are trying to refute. And if you don’t understand, then you have nothing to do...

Further, it means that Anna Russkikh presented me with such a claim that I supposedly do not provide a link to the information that I report. It is not true. I constantly provide links to that information. The only thing I didn’t provide a link to was Korotaev’s interview. But that's because I simply forgot to write down the address of this interview on the Internet. But instead of Korotaev’s interview, I can give another link - to an interview with the judge of Ivdel - Georgy Vasilyevich Novokreshchenov. In this interview, Novokreshchenov talks about the same thing that Korotaev spoke about, namely, that somewhere in the vicinity of the Dyatlov Pass there is a certain place where there were a lot of craters from explosions. This means that in the comments I will later give this link to the interview with Novokreshenov. further, here Anna Russkikh is trying to assure that the explosions and craters that were there were supposedly done by geologists. Yes, indeed, geologists use explosives in their, let’s say, activities. But in this case, it cannot be said that geologists did the explosions. The fact is that geologists carry out their blasting operations in the summer, and not in the winter. I can even say: where was the geologists' explosives warehouse? It was located 200 km north of Otorten. I managed to find out. But since geologists don’t need explosives in winter and don’t use them, radio operator Viktor Lyubimov was sent to this explosives warehouse. To guard this warehouse. And so he was there all winter and guarded this warehouse, together with his wife he stayed there. So this fact again confirms that geologists do not carry out blasting operations in winter!

So, what else did Anna Russkikh say? In my opinion, nothing more. I repeat once again that Anna Russkikh’s version that the Dyatlov group was killed on Kirilenko’s order is incorrect. The fact is that in a dictatorial state, although murders occur, they occur exclusively with the sanction of the dictator. That is, the subordinates of a given dictator cannot give orders for murder. Therefore, Kirilenko could not arbitrarily give the order to kill the Dyatlov group.

Well, let's say he would give an order. Who could he give this order to? Local KGB administration? No! All local KGB departments are subordinate to Lubyanka, i.e. Chairman of the KGB. Well, at that time Shelepin was the chairman of the KGB. So, only on Shelepin’s order could the local KGB department in the Sverdlovsk region give the order to kill at least Dyatlov’s group, or anyone else. By order of Kirilenko, they could not do this! He was not their boss. And Shelepin could not arbitrarily give the order to kill Dyatlov’s group. He could only do this on Khrushchev's orders. He couldn't do it himself!

Or remember the murder of Trotsky under Stalin. This murder was committed under the leadership of Beria. But Beria did not act of his own free will, but on the orders of Stalin. He could not do anything of his own free will. Thus, Anna Russkikh’s claim that the Dyatlov group was killed on the orders of Kirilenko is simply stupid! This couldn't happen.

But even if we assume for a moment that yes, they were killed on Kirilenko’s orders. For example, he hired his employees from his regional committee there for murder, and they armed themselves with guns, axes or something else and chased after Dyatlov’s group... But look, the tourists of Dyatlov’s group were not killed with guns or pistols, or with axes. They were killed in some strange way. They had broken ribs, fractured skulls... What kind of weapon did Kirilenko’s henchmen have that breaks ribs, or breaks a skull? No, Kirilenko’s employees would not have killed the Dyatlvoa group in such a strange way, by breaking ribs and so on.

All these injuries were caused by the explosion of a vacuum bomb. A vacuum bomb has just such a property. She has a very powerful blast wave. In addition, it explodes at altitude. In other words, if a person finds himself under the epicenter of a vacuum bomb explosion, then the blast wave not only throws him to the ground, he is also pressed into the ground, as if by a press. Well, as a result, ribs break, like those of Zolotarev and Dubinina. As for Thibault-Brignolle, whose skull was fractured, the situation is somewhat different. Thibault-Brignolles found itself at a considerable distance from the epicenter. Well, maybe 50 meters, let’s say, and the blast wave only threw him to the ground. He was not hit, because he was far away, and the blast wave seemed to pass horizontally rather than vertically. That's why Thibault-Brillnol's ribs didn't break! But the blow was such a terrible force that he fell and hit his head on a stone. As a result, his skull was fractured.

Oh, I feel like Anna Russkikh is bored listening to what I’m saying now. Yes, of course, for non-specialists all this is boring. Therefore, I probably won’t explain. I’ll just repeat: the kind of injuries Dubinina and Zolotarev had could only have been caused by a vacuum bomb. It also injures the eyes. And when the bodies of Dubinin and Zolotarev were found, they had no eyes. They were injured and decomposed first because the bodies of these tourists lay in the stream for 2 months. That's why when they were found they had no eyes!

And the last thing I will say. Anna Russians claim that no one believes my version. That's just funny. Well, of course they don’t believe it. Nobody knows how vacuum bombs work. Only I, and the design engineers of vacuum bombs, know this. Nobody else knows this.




- Сегодня Анна Русских совершила очередную попытку опровергнуть мою версию о вакуумной бомбе. Так вот, для начала я должен сказать следующее: опровергнуть мою версию о вакуумной бомбе может только инженер-конструктор вакуумных бомб, а больше никто! Чтобы чего-то опровергать, надо как минимум разбираться в том предмете, который ты пытаешься опровергнуть. А если ты не разбираешься, то тебе нечего делать...

Дальше, значит, Анна Русских предъявила мне такую претензию, что я мол не даю ссылки на ту информацию, которую сообщаю. Это неправда. Я постоянно даю ссылки на ту информацию. Единственное, на что я не дал ссылку, это на интервью Коротаева. Но это потому, что я просто забыл записать адрес этого интервью в интернете. Но вместо интервью Коротаева я могу дать другую ссылку - на интервью с судьёй Ивделя - Георгием Васильевичем Новокрещёновым.

В этом интервью Новокрещёнов рассказывает о том же самом, о чём говорил Коротаев, а именно, что где-то там в окрестностях перевала Дятлова находится некое место, на котором была масса воронок от взрывов. Значит, в комментарии я потом дам эту ссылку на интервью с Новокрешёновым. далее вот тут Анна Русских пытаются уверить, что будто бы взрывы и воронки, которые там были, это мол геологи совершили. Да, действительно, геологи применяют взрывчатку в своей, скажем так, деятельности. Но в данном случае тут нельзя сказать, что взрывали геологи. Дело в том, что геологи свои взрывные работы совершают в летний период, а не зимой. Я даже могу сказать: а где находился склад взрывчатки у геологов. Он находился в 200 км севернее от Отортена. Это мне удалось выяснить. Но так как взрывчатка зимой геологам не требуется, они её не используют, то на этот склад взрывчатки был направлен радист Виктор Любимов. Чтобы охранять этот склад. И вот он там всю зиму и охранял этот склад, вместе со своей женой он там пребывал. Так что этот факт опять же подтверждает, что зимой геологи взрывные работы не совершают!

Так, что там ещё говорила Анна Русских? По-моему, больше ничего. Ещё раз повторю, что версия Анны Русских о том, что группа Дятлова убита по заказу Кириленко, неверна. Дело в том, что в диктаторском государстве хотя и происходят убийства, но происходят они исключительно с санкции диктатора. То есть, подчинённые данного диктатора не могут отдавать приказы в убийстве. Поэтому Кириленко не мог самовольно отдать приказ об убийстве группы Дятлова.

Ну, допустим, он бы отдал приказ. А кому он мог отдать этот приказ? Местному управлению КГБ? Нет! Все местные управления КГБ подчиняются Лубянке, т.е. председателю КГБ. Ну а в то время председателем КГБ был Шелепин. Так что, только по приказу Шелепина местное управление КГБ по Свердловской области могло отдать приказ убить хоть группу Дятлова, хоть ещё кого-то. По приказу Кириленко они не могли это сделать! Он для них был не начальником. Да и Шелепин не мог самовольно отдать приказ убить группу Дятлова. Он мог это сделать только по приказу Хрущёва. Сам он не мог это сделать!

Или вспомните убийство Троцкого при Сталине. Это убийство было совершено под руководством Берии. Но ведь Берия действовал не по собственному желанию, а по приказу Сталина. По собственному желанию он ничего не мог делать. Таким образом, утверждение Анны Русских, что группа Дятлова была убита по приказу Кириленко, это просто глупость! Такого не могло быть.

Но даже если предположим на миг, что да, по приказу Кириленко они были убиты. Он, допустим, там своих сотрудников из своего обкома нанял для убийства, и они там вооружились ружьями, топорами или ещё чем-то и погнались за группой Дятлова... Но смотрите, а ведь туристы группы Дятлова были убиты не из ружий и не из пистолетов, и не топорами. Они были убиты каким-то странным образом. У них были сломаны рёбра, проломлены черепа... Что за оружие было у подручных Кириленко, которое ломает рёбра, или там череп проламывает? Нет, не стали бы убивать сотрудники Кириленко группу Дятлоdа, таким странным образом, путём ломания рёбер и так далее.

Все эти травмы нанесены взрывом вакуумной бомбы. Вакуумная бомба как раз обладает таким свойством. У неё очень мощная взрывная волна. Кроме того, она взрывается на высоте. Иначе говоря, если человек оказался под эпицентром взрыва вакуумной бомбы, то взрывной волной его не только бросает на землю, его ещё в землю ещё и как бы вдавливает, как прессом. Ну и в результате ломаются рёбра, как у Золотарёва и Дубининой. А что касается Тибо-Бриньоля, у которого был проломлен череп, тут несколько иная ситуация. Тибо-Бриньоль оказался на значительном расстоянии от эпицентра. Ну, может, на 50 метров, допустим, и взрывной волной его только бросило на землю. Не его не впечатало, потому что он был далеко, и взрывная волна прошла как бы не вертикально, а горизонтально. Вот почему рёбра у Тибо-Бриньоля не сломались! Но удар был такой страшной силы, что он упал, ударился головой об камень. И в результате у него проломило череп.

Ой, я чувствую, Анне Русских скучно слушать то, что я сейчас рассказываю. Да, конечно, для неспециалистов всё это скучно. Поэтому я, пожалуй, не буду объяснять. Я просто повторю: такие травмы, какие были у Дубининой и Золотарёва, могла нанести только вакуумная бомба. Она травмирует также глаза. И когда тела Дубинина и Золотарёва нашли, у них не было глаз. Они были травмированы и разложились в первую очередь, потому что тела этих туристов 2 месяца лежали в ручье. Вот почему, когда их нашли, у них не было глаз!

И последнее, что я скажу. Анна Русских утверждают, что никто не верит в мою версию. Просто смешно. Ну ,конечно, не верят. Никто же не знает, как действуют вакуумные бомбы. Это знаю только я и инженеры-конструкторы вакуумных бомб. Больше этого не знает никто.

[GlennM]

 Nobody knows how vacuum bombs work. Only I, and the design engineers of vacuum bombs, know this. Nobody else knows this.

[Ziljoe]

I would say lots of people know how vacuum bombs work.

https://youtu.be/pM84YNda36w?si=emfXIzy8nXpQ24aY

Axelrod, your version raises some questions, as does every theory I suppose. I do not think a tongue would fly out of the body , neither do I think eyes would be destroyed without significant other injuries to the body.

Here is a quote from our friend the internet.

As mentioned earlier, the thermobaric cloud’s detonation creates extremely high temperatures, potentially vaporizing the human targets enveloped by the fireball. Because it utilizes all the atmospheric oxygen of a given area for combustion, a vacuum or ‘rarefaction’ is created which causes all the humans within its radius to die of suffocation, ruptured lungs, and burns. A prolonged high-pressure wave follows which obliterates the targets nearby.

I feel you are cherry picking the injuries
without understanding the reality. Your version also does not address the reason why vacuum bombs would be getting dropped in February in the middle of no where, against none testing targets, house, bunker, animals. I fail to see the point of dropping vacum bombs randomly without collecting data for this so called secret base.

The Mansi live on that land, tourist's are known to travel . I also believe there is some kind of settlement Futher north.

If there was some kind of bomb or rocket , I would suspect that it was an accidental and not a test sight.

There are no burns of significance on any of the clothes or bodies . The burns that are reported are small and work in tandem with trying to heat or warm themselves with the small fire.

I do not think we can ignore the amount of snow above the ravine 4 . My opinion at present, is that the rib fractures are most likely crush injuries.

However, I would like to hear your version of what happened after the vacuum bomb. How the tent was placed , how they got into the ravine , why there's 3 bodies on the slope etc. ?

[anna_pycckux]

Nobody knows how vacuum bombs work. Only I, and the design engineers of vacuum bombs, know this. Nobody else knows this.

 

[GlennM]

In the region of Vizhay-Burmantovo-District 41 there were 6 groups that hiked in late January 1959: Pyotr Shtiglits - not confirmed, not on the map, Igor Dyatlov (10), Yuri Blinov (10) - he did not keep a diary for this trek, Anatoliy Shumkov (10), Igor Fomenko (7), and Vladislav Karelin (8)

...and nobody else saw anything.

[Ziljoe]

In the region of Vizhay-Burmantovo-District 41 there were 6 groups that hiked in late January 1959: Pyotr Shtiglits - not confirmed, not on the map, Igor Dyatlov (10), Yuri Blinov (10) - he did not keep a diary for this trek, Anatoliy Shumkov (10), Igor Fomenko (7), and Vladislav Karelin (8)

...and nobody else saw anything.

So , we have 6 groups of hikers in January roaming the hills and the Mansi doing their hunting and traveling around the area.

Who would fire random explosives, of any type in that area without taking appropriate safety precautions?. 

[GlennM]

Vaccum bombs, a candidate for the dustbin of history.

[Arjan]

A pure vacuum bomb can be sent to the world of imagination.

Unfortunately for humanity, a supersonic blast wave followed by an underpressure can be caused by so-called high-order explosives, like TNT and Semtex.

During warfare, these high-order explosives are used in bombs blasting in the sky, see image below:
 


The (thin) pressure wave is the blue line in the image.
The underpressure is the area within the blue sphere.

The image below shows a timeline of a passing pressure wave followed by an underpressure:
 


Only with this kind of pressure wave, I can explain the fractured ribcage of Lyudmila, while on her photo in the mortuary the ribcage shows hardly any signs of an fatal injury.

The explanation for this fatal fracture without any signs of injury is:
- during several milliseconds the ribcage is compressed by the pressure wave: the ribs are fractured at weak points (probably butterfly fractures)
- during one full second the ribcage is inflated tot beyond its normal size (by the overpressure of the air in the lungs in comparison with the underpressure outside the ribcage), causing the ribs returning in its normal position
- after one second - and some heavy wind around - the ribcage returns to its normal size, while inside the ribcage fatal injuries had been caused by the compression during a few milliseconds.
   
A nasty feature of these kind of blast waves is: one cannot hide behind a wall or inside a hole, because walls will reflect the pressure wave and even increasing the pressure.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blast_wave
For further information: Chapter 2 in 'Tools of Violence' by Chris McNab and Hunter Keeter