Is there evidence for outsiders?

[Ziljoe]

In the nature of fair and equal debate.

Where is the evidence for outsiders?. Physical evidence of outsiders at the location and / or documentation or statements of outsiders?.

Please let's gather the evidence as a community.

[Arjan]

Personally I don't rely on the photos (made from the films found by the two search parties) as sound evidence for events during the tour.
Several of these photos pose more questions than answers.

If I am not mistaken, on loose photo no 6. a long ski - around 2 meters long - is visible.



As far as I am aware, only Yuri Yudin had used this long size of skis.

I am aware that at least several documents state that Yuri Yudin had left the tour at 2nd settlement.

My point is:
- How is is possible that one long ski is visible on this photo, while Yuri Yudin had already left the tour?
- Had Yuri Yudin stayed the fatal night for 7 group members together with Zinaida and Rustem in the re-erected tent on one ski pole and left the next morning to alert the authorities? Three persons lying together under several blankets in the tent had easily survived that night, and Yuri Yudin had well been able to return to 2nd settlement the next morning.

This photo is of course no sound proof, that he - or another person - had stayed longer on the tour than several documents state.

[Teddy]

As far as I am aware, only Yuri Yudin had used this long size of skis.

Can you point to the source of this knowledge, that Yuri Yudin's skis were any different from everybody's else's size wise?

Also they were bringing one spare pair that  belonged to the UPI, how do you know their size?

[Arjan]

A quick provisional answer:

Film no 3 as available on the website Dyatlov Pass. com

3_01: District 41. Jan 27. Preparing to take off. Dyatlov, Slobodin, and Yudin. Photo possibly taken by Kolmogorova. It is possible that Krivonischenko got into the frame: in the lower left corner against the background of backpacks, a left hand with a mitten and a knife are visible.



The skis near Yuri Yudin - very probably his skis - are quite longer than Yuri himself.

I remember having read that Yuri Yudin had very long skis: I will try to find the source.

[Ziljoe]

I have a vague memory of reading something about longer skis , I can't remember where I read it , also one of the group preferred to ski in felt boots I think.

[Arjan]

A few weeks ago, I have promised to come back on my search where I may have read that Yuri Yudin had used very long skis.

I have found no other kind of confirmation in the books that I have about this case.

Scanning my memory, I have two other possible sources:
1. interviews available on 'www.dyatlovpass.dom'
2. two facebook groups

Ad 1. for me it is not feasible to go through all entries - available via the search and keyword 'skis' - on dyatlovpass.com
Ad 2. I have left both facebook groups.

The result is: the photo above - showing Yuri Yudin - standing before long skis is my only source (with limited reliability) at this moment, that is available to me.

[Arjan]

No evidence, but a physical obvious option/possibility.

In case the tent was on the place where it had been found by the first search party, this provides the next option.
 
In case if two or more group members had stayed in the re-erected tent on one ski-pole (as visible on the photo's made by the first search party),
than under normal weather conditions, one or two group members could easily return to '2nd settlement and Vizhay' and or to the 'Mansi settlement' nearby without leaving hardly any traces in the snow.

This option leaves room for:
1. Yuri Yudin leaving the group from the tent site
2. Semyon leaving the group, while a local 'guide' might be found in the ravine by the second search party
3. An unknown group member had left the tent site - to look for help - and she/he might have survived.

Ad 3. I have always been curious about this photo as mentioned at Dyatlovpass-com.



With a low certainty (less than 10 %), she might have been a 10th group member at the tent site.

Personally, I don't dispose this kind of options on beforehand, because I try to solve the case.
In this case the devil is in the details.

[WinterLeia]

I’m not understanding. You say you don’t rely on photos made from the films found by the search party. So, are you saying you think they doctored the film? Or are you saying they removed pictures that were incriminating, like they had Yuri Yudin in them, but didn’t think about the skis?

The second conclusion is possible, although I find it a bit of a stretch. But I’m very skeptical of the first one. These are old photographs, and they didn’t have all the digital equipment we have today. It would have been very hard to doctor a photo in a way that couldn’t be detected. It had nothing to do with resources or time or money. It was just that the technology was not advanced enough. Yes, Hollywood did it. But they didn’t have to hide what they were doing. And that’s where the problem lies.

[WinterLeia]

I don’t really like to introduce rabbit holes into a discussion. But in the spirit of an open mind I will say that the Unknown Diary has always bothered me. I can’t shake the feeling that it sounds like it was written by a female, even though I know it wasn’t written by Zina or Luda. But I’ve wondered if someone else thought the same thing and that’s why it was labeled as Zina’s diary. And, I mean, it just has an odd feeling to it all around, like it doesn’t jive with the others. But it’s just a feeling. There’s too many violations of Occam’s Razor for me to put too much stock into that without further proof. It’s the most interesting diary to read, though, in my opinion. Whoever it was had a very unique perspective and way of describing things. I wish they had written more entries.

[Arjan]

Dear Winterleia, and all other members.

My local photographer - now around 65 years old - says that he can do exactly the same with old style analogue photo's in the dark room, as photoshop allows.
It will take him far more time and effort.

After screening many prints from the films found by the first search party using:
- https://29a.ch/photo-forensics/#forensic-magnifier
I have come to the conclusion that 'I have to take into account that the prints have been composed at a later moment'

I will show the analysis of two photos (available at dyatlovpass.com )
 


The photo above, shows Yuri Yudin on a place outside the tour.
The magnification of the change between 'the coat, trousers, and background' is visible in the rectangle: it appears sound and sharp.



The photo above is one of the film found by the first search party.
The changes from jack and background is blurred by a gray line of 3 picksels wide; as far as I know on all photos these changes are 3-4 pics white or gray.

This surrounding of objects is user for:
- highlighting objects from the background or
- camouflaging that object have been added.

When all or nearly all objects are blurred by a grey/white line around, the suspicion arises, that the photos are mere composition from other source material.

A few Russian bloggers are far more outspoken about the value of photo for evidence to solve the case.
I will not share these links, because my browser indicates that these links are not safe nowadays due to expired SSH-key.

[WinterLeia]

Yes, that does make it possible that the photos could have been doctored. But you can’t take a picture that doesn’t show any evidence of being doctored and prove it was doctored. The only way it could be proven is to authenticate the film itself, the negatives or whatever they’re called, and I don’t know if that’s ever been done or if the rolls of film are even still available.

[Ziljoe]

Hi Arjan....

I too have been looking for the comment about long ski's. It is somewhere and that one of the group preferred not to use ski boots. Not that I think it would add much.

I think there's a problem with copying or over analysing the photos from the internet. Many photos have already been enhanced, not to cover things up but to try and tidy the images.

I have seen some of the sites you mention , they relate to the length of things with perspective of trees , bushes and skis etc .
Some put interesting arguments forward at times.

It would be good to source something though.

[Ziljoe]

I don’t really like to introduce rabbit holes into a discussion. But in the spirit of an open mind I will say that the Unknown Diary has always bothered me. I can’t shake the feeling that it sounds like it was written by a female, even though I know it wasn’t written by Zina or Luda. But I’ve wondered if someone else thought the same thing and that’s why it was labeled as Zina’s diary. And, I mean, it just has an odd feeling to it all around, like it doesn’t jive with the others. But it’s just a feeling. There’s too many violations of Occam’s Razor for me to put too much stock into that without further proof. It’s the most interesting diary to read, though, in my opinion. Whoever it was had a very unique perspective and way of describing things. I wish they had written more entries.

Hi winterleia.

I had another read of it. It is strange that there are so few entries. When I use the Russian translation and then translate on my device I get slightly different results.

It would seem they were slightly lost on the 30th of January, the Mansi paths and signs were confusing to them. When I say lost, I mean lost within the trees and the internal trails created by Mansi. This I would say fits with some of the photos, especially the one with Zolotaryov, Doroshenko and Dyatlov. I think this is a photo taken with humour and ties in with the diary. They are obviously in the forest, probably followed the wrong trail and Dyatlov is trying to find the best direction.

This diary also mentions the state of the tent holes which seem excessive.

[Teddy]

I have always been curious about this photo as mentioned at Dyatlovpass-com.

https://dyatlovpass.com/loose-photos

There is nothing mysterious about this photo. Koskin is a bigger enigma if you ask me. Abandoning the case for 10 years and coming back. He never said why and when asked questions during these 10 years (including about this photo, why did he listed it as belonging to the Dyatlov group), he always said that he doesn't want anything to do with the case. And now he wants to fill Kuntsevich's shoes.
The girl is Lyudmila Kotelnikova. You can see her with Doroshenko as a leader in 1957 Middle Ural trek.



She was in a meeting just this last Wednesday, May 8, and here is a post the Russian social media (VK.com)

An amazing meeting took place on May 8 at the Museum of History of Yekaterinburg. One of the spectators, sitting modestly in the hall, personally knew well and was friends with all the hikers from Dyatlov’s group!!! As Lyudmila Petrovna Molchalina (Kotelnikova) said, she started studying in the radio faculty of UPI in 1955. She was interested in hiking her whole life and joined the sport tourism club at the university. She knew in person all the members from the Dyatlov group, and went on hikes with Yuri Doroshenko, Lyuda Dubinina, and Yuri Yudin. After the performance (at the meeting on May 8, 2024), she talked for a long time about the guys from the Dyatlov group. The young audience had just read the group’s diaries and now they were talking to a person who remembers all the authors of these diaries. Such a connection between generations, unexpected, but very real! Below is a photo of Lyudmila Petrovna and a list of participants in the trek to the Urals under the leadership of Yuri Doroshenko, what a great meeting!


 

[Teddy]

About the Unknown diary my personal opinion is that Zolotaryov wrote it because only he could confuse Doroshenko with Kolevatov.

[GlennM]

I am going back to Ziljoe's original post and interpreting it differently. I am going to use Teddy's theory as a springboard. Teddy argues that after the treefall incident, the tent was deliberately moved a mile up the slope irregardless of where the bodies lay. I interpret Ziljoe's original post to ask if there is any verifiable evidence of human presence/ tampering with the scene prior to the discovery of the tent on 1079? After all,  the tent can not move itself and the hikers were in no condition to move it. Everybody brings something into a crime scene and takes something away. As an example, if a tree fell on the tent, certainly there would be cut marks on the tree where the conspirators freed the tent.

[Teddy]

The tree has been on the ground for 65 years, it is rotten, and it is covered with moss. But you can still see a whole chunk missing, edges parallel.
https://dyatlovpass.com/dead-cedar

There are so many things around the bodies that are arguable left by the dying.
It is one thing to argue, and another to prove it.

[WinterLeia]

I should probably clarify something here. Ziljoe asked for evidence of outsiders, not whether outsiders were responsible for what happened to the hikers. I don’t think one necessarily equals the other. There are reasons why someone might want to keep quiet about what they saw or experienced, even if they didn’t do anything wrong, if nothing else, just not to bring the attention of the authorities down on themselves or their families, especially if they knew it would not help the hikers anyway, or if they came across the tent, had no idea what happened, and then continued on their way. That may sound selfish. But it is not uncommon for people to go out of their way to avoid being even peripherally attached to such a horrible event.

[Ziljoe]

It is a general question and a thread where others might have come across something that triggers an observation.

For example , we have the puttee found at the tent , this is questioned as being military but we also know that one of the hikers used  puttees when skiing.

We know there were Mansi close by. Depending on how I interpret the reports it seems they were in the vicinity of 1- 10km , herding or hunting. 

I am trying to read the case files in Russian translation and sometimes get different translations , one for example says that the pans or cookingiron were crumpled ?. A small detail but could shed some light .

There is also the question of what kind of evidence would outsiders leave behind or what could they cover up. I reason that it would not be an easy task for outsiders to be heavily involved without leaving evidence or traces . It's an open question and obviously some would say the injuries are enough evidence .

[Teddy]

I am trying to read the case files in Russian translation and sometimes get different translations , one for example says that the pans or cookingiron were crumpled ?. A small detail but could shed some light .

The word "crumpled" is used about the blankets and the tent.
Point me towards where it says crumpled cookware, please.

[Ziljoe]

I am trying to read the case files in Russian translation and sometimes get different translations , one for example says that the pans or cookingiron were crumpled ?. A small detail but could shed some light .

The word "crumpled" is used about the blankets and the tent.
Point me towards where it says crumpled cookware, please.

I will have a look, take me a wee bit as it's in the case files using the Russian text then auto translate on my page.

[Ziljoe]

You are not cross checking with my translation when you find something like that?

No idea, but sometimes the grammar can give a very different perspective to an interpretation.  So in one version it says this

Version 1:

Belongings of the dead: Comrades are standing near the items. Boots, fur clothes. 3-4 blankets in a pile(?). Jacket of Kolya Thibault. Slippers Zina Kolmogorova, stove, crumpled pans (?). Saw in a case.

Dogs what?

- apparently deeply overwhelmed. We have to chop with an ax. Corpses are like bones, logs. A ski pole is broken(???)

Version 2 :

Belongings of the dead: Comrades are standing near the things. Boots, fur items. 3-4 blankets per group(?). Jacket Kolya Thibault. Zina Kolmogorova's slippers, stove, crumpled fire pans(?). Saw in a case.

- What about dogs?

- apparently deeply buried. The ax chops. Corpses are like bones, logs. The stick is broken. (???)

[Ziljoe]

G. K. GRIGORIEV "SNOWSTORM IN THE MOUNTAINS" - 1 scan 42

[Teddy]

Yes, this is what it says, I have it too. I was searching only in the case files. Fits my theory.
https://dyatlovpass.com/grigoriev-1#42

[Ziljoe]

It's the first time I've seen reference to crumpled pans. I don't know what that means exactly, or the entries below regarding the bodies, then logs? He could mean frozen I suppose.

It seems he is refering to chopping the way into the tent also, and then we have the broken pole / skipole . Is that him implying they broke a ski pole on digging the tent?

As ever, this mystery has a perpetual duality about everything written and a frustrating timeline.

[GlennM]

Winter Lea correctly states that the presence of someone at the scene does not equate to involvement with the situation. To date, there is nothing to suggest this happened, though Ziljoe speaks to the proximity of Mansi in the area. I suppose the " let dead dogs lie" would be reason enough for observers to keep hands off. Then again, who knows if Mansi according to personal or cultural beliefs, would say something for humanitarian reasons at the time?

So, I turn my attention to those who did affect the scene. The crumpled pan observation does support Teddy's theory, but poses a question. " If crumpled pans were caused by a fallen tree, who in their right mind is going to chop out and move the tent a mile away, leave corpses behind and keep tell tale contents? It is a real problem! Conspirators could not get away with discarding nor replacing the cookery. Their deception is flawed. I think it is a translation error at worst. For me, I put crumpled pans down to a slab slide crushing the tent and what is inside.

Three kinds of evidence are physical, eyewitness and circumstantial. The crushed pans support physical evidence of interlopers tampering. The proximity of Mansi in the area support circumstantial evidence. The absence of eyewitness testimony or diary entries negates it as evidence.  If we are to move the conspiracy needle, these are the three areas to pursue.

[Ziljoe]

I can't say I disagree agree with your observations Glenn. There is a lot of transparency within the case files that would have been shut down or redacted if there was some sort of cover up. .

I'm cautious of the transaction of crumpled pans , but I wait other russian forum members to give a translation.

I am researching the best I can from my perspective from translation. If I understand correctly, for example, the call for more food etc for the searcher's was delayed because of weather, despite their resources and the command was given to use the labaz / cache of the Dyatlov for consumption by the the searcher's. .

Basically, we can't drop of all the supplies at the moment, you have clearance to eat the supplies from the hikers labaz.

[GlennM]

"Basically, we can't drop of all the supplies at the moment, you have clearance to eat the supplies from the hikers labaz"

For me, this rules out the possibility of food based toxicity affecting the DP9.

It is a good thread, Ziljoe..

[Ziljoe]

Thanks Glenn. It wasn't the exact quote.

It's here.

Moving from the place of the last discovered overnight stay from the storage to the pass in bad weather Dyatlovets Dyatlov's group could easily have taken the ridge of height 1079 for the pass to Lozva. But the main mystery of the tragedy remains the exit of the whole group from the tent. The only thing besides an ice ax found outside the tent — a Chinese flashlight on the roof — confirms the likelihood that one dressed person would come outside, which gave some reason for everyone else to hastily throw the tent. The reason could be some extraordinary natural phenomenon or the passage of meteorological intercepts, which Ivdel saw on February 1 and on February 17, saw Karelin’s group. Tomorrow we will continue to search together with new forces and ship the planned cargo.

Scan 11

Questions: Small messages

1. Chernyshev's group and Sidorov both are asking to leave the latterhere.

2. Need candles, five pieces left.

3. Tomorrow morning, we are sending Kurikov’s group back, giving them reference for their work.

4. Send telegram on my behalf to Sverdlovsk, Pervomayskaya 104 Energochermet

Scan 12

24 u. (unquoted - ed. note) 16'=

To Maslennikov=

tomorrow, in your area weather is expected to improve and decided to send two helicopters to you at the same time after reconnaissance of the area and they will drop off 8 sappers with mine detectors and a group of ten men headed by an officer while you remain the leader of the search your deputy is appointed captain Chernyshev. by the general party the instructions given to the plant manager to consider you on a business trip. Against the evacuation procedure proposed

Scan 13

by you today we do not object make the most expedient decisions independently requested products will be sent to you use food from the cache after the inventory nothing against the evacuation of Borisov Serdityh why send Blinov is necessary to send Blinov back. we clearly don't have flying weather continue the search for the whole group untill the whole group. We will send a telegram to your wife now. Send the coordinates of the cache = Commission =

09     1000     130 Moscow time to give only weather on the airfield in the absence of Maslennikov these sessions are not mandatory, and with me at 1300 main control session at 1600 rc. (reverse check - ed. note)

5) Please call me to report and resolve issues with leadership of the detachment.

[Ziljoe]

Slightly different translation.

"Moving precisely from the place of the last discovered overnight stay with a storage shed to the pass in bad weather, the Dyatlov group could well have mistaken the ridge of the spur of Mountain 1079 for the pass to Lozva. But the main mystery of the tragedy remains the exit of the entire group from the tent. The only thing other than an ice ax found outside the tent - a Chinese lantern on its roof - confirms the likelihood of one clothed person going outside, which gave some reason for everyone else to hastily abandon the tent. The reason could be some extraordinary natural phenomenon or the passage of a meteorological rocket, which was seen in Ivdele on February 1 and seen by Karelin’s group on February 17. Tomorrow we will continue the search together with new forces and send the planned cargo.

Scan 11

Questions: Minor messages

1. The group of Chernyshev and Sidorov unanimously ask to leave the latter here.

2. Candles required, five left.

3. Tomorrow morning we are sending Kurikov’s group back, I gave them a certificate of their work.

4. Give a telegram on my behalf Sverdlovsk, Pervomaiskaya 104 Energochermet

Scan 12

24 b. (note: receipt-free method) 16'=

Maslennikov =

Tomorrow the weather in your area is expected to improve and after reconnaissance of the area by plane it has been decided to send you two helicopters at the same time which will make two flights each, 8 sappers with mine detectors and a group of fighters of ten people under the leadership of an officer, by decision of the commission, the overall leadership of the search remains with you for now, your deputy has been appointed a captain Chernyshev. The regional party committee has given instructions to the plant director to consider you on a business trip. Against the proposed evacuation order

Scan 13

we don’t object to you today, make the most appropriate decisions on your own, ask for property, food will be sent to you from the storehouse after drawing up an inventory, use it for food against the evacuation of Borisov, we don’t object to the angry ones. What is the reason for sending Blinova ? The need to send Blinova. In case of clearly bad weather, continue the search with the whole group. bye the whole group . We'll send a telegram to your wife now. Specify the coordinates of the warehouse =Commission=