Zolotaryov's knife

[Axelrod]

This topic originally came up on Facebook, I even wrote a comment there. But after my comment I received 2 calls on my smartphone. I use my smartphone only as a camera, without any other activity, but my Facebook login is linked to that number. I haven't received any calls on my phone for 2 years, until I created a new account in Facebook.


That's why I'm answering here, I don't want unnecessary calls. I found a causal link with Facebook (which is considered a terrorist organization in Russia), it remains to find a link in other places.



Theodora asks:
How do you know it belonged to the Dyatlov group? Why Zolotaryov?
Her previous text:
Jan 28, 1959, leaving 2nd Northern. Dubinina, Zolotaryov, and Kolmogorova cleaning their skis with knives. In this photo we can't really see the make of the knives used, most probably Dubinina and Kolmogorova had penknives. Zolotaryov's knife is hanging on a lanyard from his pocket. None of these knives were ever found, not in the tent, not on the bodies, not in the ravine.
𝗞𝗡𝗜𝗩𝗘𝗦 𝗥𝗘𝗣𝗢𝗥𝗧𝗘𝗗 𝗙𝗢𝗨𝗡𝗗 𝗜𝗡 𝗖𝗔𝗦𝗘 𝗙𝗜𝗟𝗘𝗦

Yes, in the photo there is wine on the rope with which the knife is tied to the pocket. My father tied his keys this way.
I gave a link to a video with Yuri Yudin in the ravine (summer 2009)


Sasha Kan thinks that this is Dubinina's knife, because Dubinina was found in that place. But Sasha Kan is very straightforward. I think that Zolotaryov was also nearby. Perhaps, when Zolotaryov was pulled out, the rotten rope with the knife broke, and the knife remained.
The previous item could be this item (presumably):
https://reibert.info/lots/drosselirujuschaja-vtulka-s-nasadkoj-dlja.189163/
There is evidence from Vladimirov about the launch of signal flares.



There is an assumption from somebody - that Dubinina and Kolmogorova are also holding knives in their hands. I think that the author of this idea is a fan of bladed weapons, and I am not such a fan.
I think it's a piece of soap, according to Dubinina's last line in the diary.

This photograph raises many questions. The first thought is that Zolotaryov has not yet decided on his sympathy, Dubinin and Kolmogorov. We will see the result of his choice later.
The second thought is about wooden poles with crossbars. My first thought was that these are poles for telephone wires. Yes, 50 meters away we see other such poles. But why three poles next to each other is unclear. I think that the craftsman dealt with telephone poles, and these poles were made according to the same scheme. Perhaps the poles were simply made extra.


Different versions can be built. Perhaps there is a version that Dubinina gave the diary to Yudin (as a keepsake), because the scene of farewell to Yudin is later in the photographs.



And Dubinina's diary is missing in the protocol of the tent discovery.

If Dubinina used a pencil instead of a knife, she could have broken the pencil and could not have filled out her diary on the hike.

[Hunter]

Вряд ли Дубинина чистила лыжи карандашом.

ENGLISH TRANSLATION: It is unlikely that Dubinina cleaned the skiis with a pencil.

[Axelrod]

Possibly it was comb made from aluminium
ACT №4

MEDICAL-FORENSIC EXAMINATION OF THE BODY OF CITIZEN
KOLMOGOROVA Zinaida Alekseevna, 22 years old

 In the right pocket is a brown comb

Sheet 129

- 3 -

with two broken teeth.

[Ziljoe]

The comb can be seen in the mortuary, in zinas pocket with the broken teeth.

In the report of another hike by tourist's, they mention standing poles next to a river which they believe to be for drying hay or grass.

There were enough knives to be used for cleaning skis

[Hunter]

Ziljoe
There were not enough knives. Of the nine participants in the expedition, five people had knives, if we are to believe the materials of the criminal case. Photographs confirm that Thibault and Krivonischenko owned a knife. In the photo of cleaning skis, it is highly likely that Zolotarev has a folding knife (it is impossible to say which one - a penknife, a hunting knife or another), which belonged to him. Zina and Lyuda could have been lent knives.

[Axelrod]

As for the knife topic, it seems to me that everything is normal there.
In the 1980s, there were 4 people in our family, but there was one kitchen knife, one wristwatch and one camera.
Later, another knife, a wristwatch and a third camera appeared, for four people. So we reached the Dyatlov group norm.

I think that Zina Kolmogorva and Lyuda Dubinina did not have their own knives, wristwatches and cameras, as many are trying to prove.

But Thibeaux-Brignolle could have had a second knife, which was described as an "small axe".
Here is this knife in the photo#21 with Tibo. It seems to me. This is also missing in your research.

[Axelrod]

/*Лист 257*/ Протокол №13 от 7 апреля 1959г. г. Свердловск
Остались неопознанными:
6. Топорик маленький железный в футляре кожаном.

Sheet 257

Protocol №13 from 7 April 1959
city of Sverdlovsk 31 March 7

Prosecutor criminalist of the Prosecutor's Office of Sverdlovsk Region, Jr Counselor of Justice Ivanov in the presence of witnesses Yuri Efimovich Yudin Yuri, student UPI, course I-480 and Galina Nikolaevna Hamova, UPI, course S-344, finished the identification of the items and the following remain unidentified:

6. Hatchet small iron top in leather case.

Maybe it correspods to
V.I. TEMPALOV WITNESS TESTIMONY


 near the cuts of lard i found a big knife (- see photo above)

Sheet 311

back

- 3 -

- Continuation of the testimony -
I determined that the knife belong to the students

[Ziljoe]

This photo has been shown before or I have seen it at least , there were many knifes to cut the tent , a knife can sharpen a pencil . Wax or skin fat was used on the skis too?

Why do we have a problem with knives , what are we looking for?

[Axelrod]

Yes, it is quile possinle that Dubinina and Kolmogorova handle with a candle.
(Only Zolotaryov has a knife which was founs in ~2010
Probably thatr picture was made in 41th settlement, because we have photo wuth similar 3 vertical items from another direction.

Maybe knife is a result of imagination with this photo.

[Hunter]

Axelrod
This is not an axe. This is a large knife, a #3 splitting knife or a large kitchen knife.





 If you are interested, I can provide a scan from Ustinov's book.
A knife from another hike. Perhaps it belonged to the locals or to one of the hikers who did not go on Dyatlov's last hike.
And then there were already small tourist axes with iron handles. This axe could have belonged, for example, to Zolotarev.
In the photo, the skis are being cleaned, not polished. The question is - with what. In those years (and later), the knife was used to clean snow from skis.

Ziljoe
To polish skis so that the snow does not stick, they used ointments, both store-bought and homemade. Or paraffin. There is a photo where Thibault seems to be polishing a ski.

[Axelrod]

At first I assumed that the photo was taken in the 2nd Severny settlement. Then I suposed it was earlieer.
They had not yet started the hike. Perhaps Zolotaryov was cleaning his skis from some dirt, but Dubinina and Kolmogorova clearly used wax candles instead of soap.
-----------------------
A knife or an axe? You yourself write that the investigation tried to bypass the presence of knives. Tempalov writes about a large knife. But the knife that was returned to Kolevatov's sister is not large. This is a small knife. It is very likely that the investigators described this knife as an axe with a wooden handle. Some falsification. You explained the reasons.

[Hunter]

Axelrod
There is a big difference between a knife and an axe. The investigation would not have shuffled the facts like that. The investigation could have omitted the word "Finnish" so as not to classify the knife as a weapon.
This is the kind of axe that was found, they were sold in leather cases.


It is extremely difficult to pass off a knife as an axe. Even a kitchen cleaver has a different shape.

Judging by the position of the girls' hands, they were specifically cleaning skis. If you are polishing something with a candle, you will hold the candle firmly opposite the place you are polishing with.
Looks like Thibault is polishing skis


The knife could have broken and then been sharpened. Or for Tempalov, anything larger than a pocket knife is big. Unfortunately, no one who went to Elena was as interested in this issue as they were in knife permits.

[Axelrod]

The fact that the knife was described as an axe is an assumption. Otherwise, it seems to me that the recent article about knives exaggerates the number of knives, because the author believes that everyone should have a knife.

That Finnish knife, which is attributed to Niлolai T.-B., actually belongs to Kolevatov.
Yes, it is listed among things of Tibo, as well as the felt boots, but this is a mistake, an initial assumption.
The felt boots could not have been found in March, because they were on him.

[Hunter]

Axelrod
It would be more convenient to write in Russian, but this is an English-language forum, so we will translate via Google Translate. Below I will give the original.
It is impossible to confuse Kolevatov's knife and Thibault's. Judging by the photo, Thibault wore the knife in an unconventional way, so it is unlikely that they could have confused it. Plus, usually a Finnish knife in those years was already a homemade knife, and not a factory one (unless from old stocks), so it is unlikely that two identical Finnish knives could have been on a hike, unless from the same master, and not ordered at the same time. Plus there is a photo where he is cleaning skis, there is a stop (guard) visible there, and the blade, by the way, is longer than Kolevatov's.
The number of knives is not exaggerated. According to the list of equipment, everyone had to take a knife. Aksinadzi said that girls usually did not take knives. Plus someone could have forgotten - there are precedents in hiking practice. As practice has shown, knives were usually enough at the rate of 1 knife for 2 or 3 participants of the hike. In some cases, knives were generally included in the public list.

-------------------------------

Нож Колеватова и Тибо перепутать невозможно. Судя по фотографии, Тибо носил нож нестандартно, поэтому вряд ли могли его перепутать. Плюс ещё, обычно финский нож в те года это уже самодельный нож, а не фабричный (если только не из старых запасов), поэтому вряд ли в походе могло оказаться два одинаковых финских ножа, если только не от одного мастера, да и не заказанных одновременно. Плюс есть фото, где он чистит лыжи, там просматривается наличие упора (гарды), да и клинок, по ходу длиннее, чем у Колеватова.
Количество ножей не преувеличено. Согласно списку снаряжения, нож должен был взять каждый. Аксинадзи говорил, что девушки обычно не брали ножи. Плюс кто-то мог забыть - прецеденты в походной практике есть. Как показала практика, обычно хватало ножей из расчета 1 нож на 2 или 3 участников похода. В некоторых случаях ножи вообще шли в общественном списке.

[Axelrod]

Two similar or identical knives (Thibo and Krivonishenko) - this is quite possible.
They both studied at the construction faculty, could have had common contacts..
By the way, Boris Yeltsin also studied at that faculty.

If we say that in the photo somewhere (Where?) there is a knife with Thibo-Brignolle,
then they could have left the tent with two knives, sawing trees. This is already easier.

The fact that only one knife was found in May is quite understandable.

Judging by the inventory of things on pages 11-20, it looks like there was one Finnish knife left in the tent, which was perceived as a Thibo-Brignolle knife, but it turned out to be Kolevatov's knife, because it was in Ivanov's possession, and Rimma took this knife.

This scenario of three Finnish knives is the first I have realized. I need to think about this problem

A little later I will prepare a text about a knife from a file.

[Hunter]

Based on the available photographs, it is not quite so.
Thibault's knife has a metal handle pommel. Krivonischenko's is wood. Plus, the photo is of course of poor quality, but it looks like Thibault had a guard, while Krivonischenko's does not have one or is rudimentary, but has finger recesses.

It is also impossible to confuse Thibault's and Kolevatov's knives. Kolevatov's has an overhead mount, while Thibault's is a recessed one. I can assume that Slobtsov and Sharavin took Kolevatov's knife when they were leaving the Dyatlov group's tent. And it would have suffered the same fate as Dyatlov's flashlight, but someone let it slip. That's why it was not included in the tent inspection report. And when the knife arrived in Sverdlovsk, the investigator could have received an order to smooth things over as much as possible and not to raise the issue of criminal knives.

----------------

По имеющимся фотографиям не совсем так.
У ножа Тибо навершие рукоятки из металла. У Кривонищенко - дерево. Плюс ещё, фото конечно, плохого качества, но похоже, у Тибо был упор/гарда, в то время как у Кривонищенко его нет или рудиментарный, а есть подпальцевые выемки.

Спутать нож Тибо и Колеватова тоже нельзя. У Колеватова накладной монтаж, у Тибо - всадной. Я могу предположить, что Слобцов с Шаравиным забрали и нож Колеватова, когда уходили от палатки Дятловцев. И его ждала судьба фонарика Дятлова, но кто-то проговорился. Вот и не попал в протокол осмотра палатки. А когда нож прилетел в Свердловск, следователю могло поступить указание максимально сгладить углы, не поднимать вопрос о криминальных ножах.

[Hunter]

And look at the second volume of the criminal case. There are Thibault's knives, and Kolevatov's knife. And Krivonischenko's. So the knives were not mixed up.

[Axelrod]

I cannot say that this record gguarantees thst thsi Finnish knife belongs to Thibeaux-Brignille
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-volume-2-42-ru

Maybe this text section concerns both Tibo & Kolevatov (like previous text sections on that page).


It it hardly to imagine such long ans sharp knife in somebody's pockets of bridges, etc.
Maybe it was found in the tent...

Mayby this knife was initially attributed to Tibo, but later Rimma recognized it as her brothes's knife.

[Ziljoe]

With the most respect , I am failing to understand the conversation about knives , how many or thier importance.

The hikers had knives , which is understandable giving the nature of the activity and the use in camping.

If they had only one knife or 30 knives between them, what is the debate ?

Why are the number of knives so important?
What's the issue ?

I am a bit lost.

[Hunter]

Axelrod
The knife wasn't in the jacket pocket. Judging by the photo from the expedition, the knife in its sheath was attached to the jacket near the pocket.
NSDAP members in Germany carried their daggers in a similar manner:

Tibo had something similar; different design, same purpose.

It's unlikely Yudin would have confused Thibo and Kolevatov's belongings, especially something like a knife. Nowadays, a third of the group might have a knife of the same model, which only the owners or particularly observant people can distinguish. Back then, fixed knives, which were said to be "Finnish," were often homemade and differed from each other.

Ziljoe
Regarding knives and sheaths, there are many disputes and myths in the Russian-speaking segment of the internet where the Dyatlov group tragedy is discussed.

Some are unhappy that Dubinina, Kolmogorova, Doroshenko, and Zolotarev are missing knives, even though they were supposed to be there according to the expedition plan. Others claim that it's impossible to construct a shelter with a knife. Still others claim that the sheaths found at the tent site belonged to strangers, quite possibly military personnel. And there were several of these sheaths.

[Axelrod]

Ziljoe, as I understand it, Hunter was born in the same area where Krivonischenko was born. It's a bare steppe, so someone might attack.
Perhaps that's why Krivonischenko had a sharp knife.
Knives are less relevant in other places and don't generate as much interest.
For example, some people collect postage stamps, but for most people, these stamps are of no interest.
NODI are of no interest either. You can check that out.

I suggest moving on to another topic. The symbol on the uniform patch is somewhat similar to the strange symbol on Zolotarev's arm, which was shaped like a star.
In my opinion, it was originally the same symbol as on the RSDLP uniform, and then lines were added to it.

[Hunter]

Axelrod
I was born in one place. I grew up in other places. But a knife is a knife. It is a man's first friend.

[Ziljoe]

[
Ziljoe
Regarding knives and sheaths, there are many disputes and myths in the Russian-speaking segment of the internet where the Dyatlov group tragedy is discussed.

Some are unhappy that Dubinina, Kolmogorova, Doroshenko, and Zolotarev are missing knives, even though they were supposed to be there according to the expedition plan. Others claim that it's impossible to construct a shelter with a knife. Still others claim that the sheaths found at the tent site belonged to strangers, quite possibly military personnel. And there were several of these sheaths.

Yes, I have read many of the Russian websites and disputes . I can't remember any conclusion to the debates there either.

I am aware of many people looking for military connections or evidence and nothing has been found that could not be there or taken by the hikers .

For all the talk of knives ,whether it was Mansi, military, prisoner's or the hikers themselves  , no one got stabbed or cut .

What we do have  evidence for is knives being used to clean skis, cut the pork loin , potential cut the tent from the inside , perhaps cut clothes and used to help cut flooring for the den.

The knives have been used for the tools that they are and not weapons, the evidence leans towards survival and not harm.

[Hunter]

There, in the end, everyone remains with their own opinion, because if a person is stubborn about something, it is difficult to convince them otherwise, no matter how much evidence you provide.

If he believes Dyatlov has a cut on his hand, then for him it's a defensive wound from a knife. If the flooring can't be made with a knife, then Dyatlov's men didn't make it.

[Ziljoe]

There, in the end, everyone remains with their own opinion, because if a person is stubborn about something, it is difficult to convince them otherwise, no matter how much evidence you provide.

If he believes Dyatlov has a cut on his hand, then for him it's a defensive wound from a knife. If the flooring can't be made with a knife, then Dyatlov's men didn't make it.

"There, in the end, everyone remains with their own opinion, because if a person is stubborn about something, it is difficult to convince them otherwise, no matter how much evidence you provide."

There is a truth in that statement Hunter .

 I am sure that there is one statement,if not two, in the case files where they are surprised there is not more flooring as the small tree's break without much effort due to the cold. Obviously this may change from day to day conditions and I have never had the need or opportunity to snap a young tree in cold conditions.

There are a number of YouTube videos that show how to cut small trees with a small knife but others  argue it must have been an axe  .

A so called expert states from a 1959 photo that these trees were cut with an axe and that there were no axes found with the hikers and all axes were found in the tent . Therefore, someone else was there and cut these trees, then comes the conclusion that the case files are a cover up and are fake and so the myth grows.

[Hunter]

How did the expert prove his expertise? One claimed that all chopping videos were invalid, since they were made with knives made of modern steel, while the steel back then was different. They found him a video of them chopping with knives made of the same steel that could have been used on Krivonischenko's knife—again, it's not the same... The main thing for them is more views and donations. Sometimes they even beg, essentially asking for money.

[Ziljoe]

How did the expert prove his expertise? One claimed that all chopping videos were invalid, since they were made with knives made of modern steel, while the steel back then was different. They found him a video of them chopping with knives made of the same steel that could have been used on Krivonischenko's knife—again, it's not the same... The main thing for them is more views and donations. Sometimes they even beg, essentially asking for money.

Agree