Fake expedition, fake photos

[SURI]

Speaking of theories, here's another theory: the tourists weren't in the pass at all, they ended up in the 2nd Northern, and everything else, including the photos, was staged.


I quote from the site:

- Translation -

"The group did not go further than Vizhay, from where they were taken to the 2nd Northern on January 26. There they were killed, delivered in two groups to Otorten. The diaries and photos were falsified."

https://gorojanin-iz-b.livejournal.com/85272.html

[Ziljoe]

It has been around for a while .

The photos are not photoshopped/ editted/ cut or faked as far as we can tell. It would be one of the easier things to prove by people that work in such professions and don't think anyone has come forward to say so.

I think all the arguments put forward regarding the angles and perspectives of the photos have been corrected or rather explained why the author of the link you provide is wrong.

The theory also suffers from much of the same problems as others, who moved them , how did they move the bodies , what did these others that killed and moved the hikers bodies eat , where did they camp , what did they use for warmth , where are their trails , why did they pitch the tent on the slope and how did they manage to do so without leaving their own tracks, who made the footprints of the 9 hikers in the same footwear that they were found in? Etc

 Who or what outsider could even know( and remember this is 1959 ), that the snow was of the correct make up on the day that the footprints were made and that those footprints alone would survive until the searchers turned up , not only did these footprints survive but they would give enough detail that the searchers could tell that the people that made them were wearing socks and toes could be made out in the prints and the direction.

It is incredibly difficult, if not impossible to make footprints and leave no trace of your own , you can't predict what will be left behind and what will show and won't. The snow has layers and anything dropped at that moment in time stays there, there are no signs of anyone else , animal foot prints are found on the trails as are some Mansi tracks and the early trails of the hikers . We have the tent on the slope , footprints down to the ceder , bodies, broken branches used for flooring ( separate to the den flooring)  and a fire at the ceder . There are various broken branches that were used for flooring at the ravine ,it now seems to me that these small trees can be snapped with little effort during winter, there is a case file account of this and a modern one. There are also the scattered socks, shirts, jumpers and trousers in between the ceder and ravine. There is nothing else to place an outsider there. 

The raised footprints are one of the hard facts of the case that places the hikers on that slope . The only other possiblity is that 9 outsiders walked in socks and created this path to the ceder , or perhaps 1 person did it 9 times ? But this individual was clever and did not walk back up the slope , he walked a thousand miles and came back in a loop or he had the latest soviet union anti gravity device that made him hover?

[SURI]

It has been around for a while .

The photos are not photoshopped/ editted/ cut or faked as far as we can tell. It would be one of the easier things to prove by people that work in such professions and don't think anyone has come forward to say so.

I think all the arguments put forward regarding the angles and perspectives of the photos have been corrected or rather explained why the author of the link you provide is wrong.

The theory also suffers from much of the same problems as others, who moved them , how did they move the bodies , what did these others that killed and moved the hikers bodies eat , where did they camp , what did they use for warmth , where are their trails , why did they pitch the tent on the slope and how did they manage to do so without leaving their own tracks, who made the footprints of the 9 hikers in the same footwear that they were found in? Etc

 Who or what outsider could even know( and remember this is 1959 ), that the snow was of the correct make up on the day that the footprints were made and that those footprints alone would survive until the searchers turned up , not only did these footprints survive but they would give enough detail that the searchers could tell that the people that made them were wearing socks and toes could be made out in the prints and the direction.

It is incredibly difficult, if not impossible to make footprints and leave no trace of your own , you can't predict what will be left behind and what will show and won't. The snow has layers and anything dropped at that moment in time stays there, there are no signs of anyone else , animal foot prints are found on the trails as are some Mansi tracks and the early trails of the hikers . We have the tent on the slope , footprints down to the ceder , bodies, broken branches used for flooring ( separate to the den flooring)  and a fire at the ceder . There are various broken branches that were used for flooring at the ravine ,it now seems to me that these small trees can be snapped with little effort during winter, there is a case file account of this and a modern one. There are also the scattered socks, shirts, jumpers and trousers in between the ceder and ravine. There is nothing else to place an outsider there. 

The raised footprints are one of the hard facts of the case that places the hikers on that slope . The only other possiblity is that 9 outsiders walked in socks and created this path to the ceder , or perhaps 1 person did it 9 times ? But this individual was clever and did not walk back up the slope , he walked a thousand miles and came back in a loop or he had the latest soviet union anti gravity device that made him hover?

Great post. Outsiders couldn't have expected any tourist footprints to be found and therefore couldn't have created them.

[Axelrod]

Among the photographs there is Mount Khoy-Ekva, which is located at the confluence of the Auspiya River and the Lozva River.

While it is possible to imagine that the other photographs were taken in another place, this photograph could not have been taken in another place.

The tourists could not have been in another place before.

Vizhay could not have been confused with another populated area either, because the tourists were there not for the first time in Vizhay.

In short, the quoted text is pure nonsense. Perhaps it deserves attention, but it is definitely nonsense.

As for the photomontage. If Boris Yeltsin was present in the group, then a photomontage could have been made for him.
This is the only option I am willing to believe.
Perhaps Yeltsin was really present, but was cut out so that it would not harm his political career.



Here I am ready to believe that the stack of books is a photomontage

[SURI]

It's not just that the tourists were really in the pass, but also that no one else was there. No outsiders were moving anything.

[Arjan]

Correct, the blog:

https://gorojanin-iz-b.livejournal.com/85272.html

raises many questions about the photos available that are attributed by many to the film rolls found in the tent.




On this photo above, Yuri Dor has an 'extremely' flexible right knee and Igor has lost his left ski somewhere before seating.

On one photo Yuri Yudin is standing next to Zina in the door post in Vizhay: Yuri Yudin appears to be 185 cm tall.
On his farewell photos, Yuri Yudin has shrunk to around 172 cm or so.
And the horse with five legs, sigh.

Personally, I value these photos as illustration of the scenery of the tour, but I have dismissed these photos as proof of any fact that had taken place during the tour.

I don't regard these photos as fake, because these photos may well be composed to remember the group and group members.
With this purpose in mind, these photos are genuine and these serve their purpose.

Without any proof from my side, but it keeps tickling in my mind - 40 % to 60 % certainty in my estimation - that these photos may as well be composed to disguise facts that had taken place during the tour, like:
- a tenth group member that had left the tour - not at 2nd - , but left the tour from the 'tent site' to alert the authorities of the disaster that had happened in the ravine to three fatally injured group members in the ravine in the afternoon and four during the fatal night.
Very probably I am the only member in this forum who had this idea theory derived from the photos of the search parties and from the post mortem reports. 

[GlennM]

People see what they want to see. Five legged horse with no tail or four legs with a tail.

[Arjan]

Several years ago, before I have read the blog-post in question, I have made an excelsheet of the interhuman relations between the group members.
Based on photos and diaries, I have noted:
1. Sub group: Lyudmila, Semyon Thibo
2. Sub group: Rustem and Zinaida
3. Sub group: Yuri Dor and Yuri Kri as 'powerhouses' making tracks
4. Igor as outlier
5. Alexander as outlier

Very probably Lyudmila and Zinaida had slept next to each other in the tent, but based on photos and diaries, I assume both had not been natural female friends.

Guess now who had been found close to each other?

Subgroup 1 and 3. had been lying next to each other and subgroup 2 had been found close to each other.

Based on the diaries and secundairy literature, Zinaida had:
- ended a relation with Yuri Dor
- had been on duty very often with Rustem.

Guess now who had been found face down?

Yuri Dor. and Rustem had been found face down. Why?
Because Zinaida had not been able to the death faces of Yuri Dor. and Rustem?
 
After reading the blog post in question, I have stopped using the photos (film 1-6 and loose photos) and diaries as sound proof for any factual event that has taken place on the tour.
 

[Ziljoe]

The blog in question is ultimately poor , not one of his examples of a photo montage stand up to scrutiny.

He missis out perspective , rotation, depth of field , zoom and a whole other list of things.

In the photo you posted , a foot can rotate at the ankle , there is a lose ski behind Yuri Dor's right foot( possibly the spare ones). Yuri Yudin is not known to be 185 cm tall. The way the author comes to the conclusion that Yuri Yudin  is 185cm tall is an embarrassing read . he concluded this by people that Yudin  stood beside in much later photos, 90's ,00's and then worked out the hieght of these people by one of them standing beside an outdoor 6x6 vehicle in another photo , getting the dimensions of this vehicle off the manufacturers site, then concluding the man is taller than the vehicle, then thinking Yuri Yudin is taller than the man he was standing next to in the photo and thusly Yuri is over 185cm.

All this would be great if he bothered to run his model of thinking to everything in all photos. A quick experiment would be to put your thumb and index finger next to each other in front of your eyes. Keep your thumb still in one place and move the index finger away from the thumb. The index finger becomes smaller than the thumb. Try to do the same with other objects but move your view point back and forth from the front object and you will see different lengths in the background objects to the foreground objects.

All the photos are correct in perspective, all trees are where they should be as is the lighting .

The author is probably a flat earther ....

[RMK]

For the sake of discussion: Gorojanin did post a thread here on these forums, under that username, about five years ago.  He argued what I believe to be, more or less, the same points he makes in his LJ blog.  He did not seem to make many converts.  WAB told him off, with something to the effect of "put an end to this farce with one clown and no audience" in Russian.

As for the photomontage. If Boris Yeltsin was present in the group, then a photomontage could have been made for him.
This is the only option I am willing to believe.
Perhaps Yeltsin was really present, but was cut out so that it would not harm his political career.

I'm a little intrigued here.  By 1959, Yeltsin was already an alumnus of UPI.  You suggest he could have joined Dyatlov's trek in the same way that alumni Krivonishenko and Thibeaux-Brignolles did?  Is there any evidence that he was acquainted with Dyatlov or any of the other 9 members of the group?  Hypothetically, if he had gone with Dyatlov & company, then he clearly survived the trip, so how do you imagine that would have played out?

I don't regard these photos as fake, because these photos may well be composed to remember the group and group members.
With this purpose in mind, these photos are genuine and these serve their purpose.

Hmm.  I had never thought of it that way.

Without any proof from my side, but it keeps tickling in my mind - 40 % to 60 % certainty in my estimation - that these photos may as well be composed to disguise facts that had taken place during the tour, like:
- a tenth group member that had left the tour - not at 2nd - , but left the tour from the 'tent site' to alert the authorities of the disaster that had happened in the ravine to three fatally injured group members in the ravine in the afternoon and four during the fatal night.

I've read your recent posts, and I don't remember you raising this idea elsewhere.  I'm curious, who might this "tenth group member" be?  Perhaps, the very same Борис Николаевич mentioned above? 

[SURI]

If I understood Arjan correctly, I think he means Yudin by the 10th member. According to his theory, Yudin did not leave the group, but continued with it to the pass. He is led to this by the belief that the photos from the farewell with Yudin are a photomontage. I understand his attitude that the events surrounding Yudin and some of the photos may evoke this feeling. The question would then of course be how did this 10th member of the group survive and the others did not?

[Arjan]

Zinaida, Rustem and the tenth group member had easily survived the cold night in the re-erected tent.
On a rotary basis the three had fully rewarmed the member lying in the middle.

After breakfast the next morning, these three had agreed that:
- the 10th group member will return in the tracks already made to 2nd while travelling light (only food, an empty bottle and two blankets in the rucksack)
- Rustem and Semyon will descend to the ravine to look after the fate of the 7 others who had not returned.

For the full timeline, so my posts under; the last two days of the Dyatlov group - a timeline

Of course Yuri Yudin is one candidate for this possible 10th group member.

If Yuri Yudin had been the 10th group member, I honour him for this survival, because he has been a man of his time in Communist Russia.
Russia had been involved in a cold war between 1945 - 1990.
Historic materialism had been the doctrine of the Russian Communist Party: he had to live and survive within this doctrine during the cold war.

[SURI]

Arjan,

you still write little about the 10th member. I already wrote that this timeline could not be, because - shoes and clothes. You know very well that they didn't carry any shoes, none were lost, and yet you still hold on to it. If the last three in the tent had agreed, probably one of them wouldn't have left with one shoe.

[Arjan]

@SURI

Thank you for alerting me for the second time on shoes and clothing.

Several times I have mentioned in replies to comments to the theory for 'the last two day of the Dyatlov Group - a timeline' that:

1. Semyon, Thibo had been adequately clothed and wearing (felt) shoes for a return trip to the ravine in the afternoon
2. Lyudmila had removed her clothes to clean herself in the stream when desaster had hit. Her shoes had never been retrieved due to the fact that no extensive crime investigation had taken place.

Igor and Alexander had been adequately clothed for a return trip lasting one/two hours to the ravine; both had removed their shoes in order to have better grip on the icy surface caused by melted and refrozen snow: see as well the photo of the tent and 100 meters downhill for the snow free area.

Both Yuri Dor and Yuri Kri had given their clothes as seats for the wounded and Alexander in the den. Both had tried to keep each other warm during the night.

Zinaida and Rustem had been adequately clothed for a return trip to the ravine during daytime the next day.
Both had removed their felt shoes as well near the icy surface and carried their felt shoes in their hands.
During the placing of the bodies in postures as been found by both search parties, three felt shoes got lost one way or another, both had been in shock and fully occupied by the death of the seven others.
Rustem had one felt shoe on when being found.

And Yuri Yudin in case he had left the tent site after breakfast: no information available.

Remark: as young adolescents the group members had been wearing clothes owned by other group members.

As far as I am aware, this fits with the details as found by both search parties.

Second remark: the area had been closed for a few years for outsiders: within this time lost felt shoes may easily decay by nature.

Did I miss something on shoes and clothes?

If not, I stay with my theory, of course under the assumptions included in my posts about 'The last two days of the Dyatlov Group - a timeline'

[SURI]

You can read about the shoes here. Rustem's second shoe was found in the tent. I also don't think everyone would be adequately dressed for the trip there and back.

https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-32-35?rbid=17743

[Arjan]

Thank you SURI for mentioning this case file describing the shoes in the tent.

You have a good point!

Studying the clothes, shoes and skis is an art and craft on its own.

Case file 34 states:
'Near them were found two pair of shoes. The remaining six pairs of shoes lay at the opposite wall of the tent. Somewhere in the middle of the tent were found 3 and a half pairs of felt boots'.

Let's start counting the shoes and felt shoes, while assuming each group member had one pair of boots and one pair of felt shoes.

Boots
If I remember well Igor's boots had been found in the storage.
In the tent were 8 pair of boots.
This adds to 9 pair of boots: all boots retraced within the limits we have available

Felt shoes
Within the theory I have drafted
First group descending to the ravine walking over snow around 15 pm when the sun had already descended behind the mountain
Semyon had been found wearing one pair of felt boots
Thibo had been found wearing one pair of felt boots
Lyudmila had been found wearing socks (removed felt boots to keep them dry and have a better grip in icy surface near the stream?)
Within the assumptions made, these three had been adequately clothed for an one hour tour to the ravine and coming back to the tent

Second group had to pass an icy surface at 17 pm around sunset!
Yuri Dor and Yuri Kri had been found without any felt boots
Igor had been found on socks
Alexander had been found on socks
Two had been found adequately clothed for an one hour tour to the ravine. Both Yuri's had sacrificed their clothing for insulation of the seats for the four members in the den.
Footwear is uncertain, some may have started on socks, because the snowless/icy surface is not very far from the tent, and these four had endured a pressure wave hitting the tent

Third group had to pass an icy surface the next day!
Zinaida had been found wearing socks
Rustem had been found wearing one felt boot
Both had been found adequately clothed for a two hour trip to the ravine
Footwear is uncertain, Rustem had been found with only one felt shoe, the snowless/icy surface is not very far from the tent.

Adding the found felt boots: 7 felt boot in the tent + 5 on the bodies = 12 felt boots.

From the 18 felt boots that are assumed to have been carried from the storage, only 12 felt boots have been found according to the case files.
Six felt boots are missing.

It may be reasonable to assume that the one solitairy felt boot found in the tent might have belonged to Rustem, but the case files don't state this as factual and it may not be factual as well.
There are two other plausible reasons with less certainty for the missing felt shoe on Rustem:
1. he had left wearing one pair and lost one felt shoe
2. he had left wearing one pair and lost his own pair during his activities around the ravine, like arranging the bodies on an icy surface. At some time he had put on a felt shoe that had belonged to the four who had descended the afternoon before around 17 pm.

[Arjan]

@ SURI

Coming back on a possible 10th group member

The grave of Semyon had been excavated several years ago for a DNA investigation to establish the identity of the body in the grave.

If I remember well, the first post mentioned that the DNA had not been discriminative; or non-conclusive due to aging of DNA in the bones, teeth
The second post mentioned that it is likely - within limited/usual certainties - that the body in the grave is linked to the sister? of Semyon.

Several I have studied the skulls/heads of the photos of Lyudmila and Semyon in the mortuary carefully:
- the skull resembles the head of 'Semyon' well
- the teeth and shape of ears of Lyudmila are exactly the same as Lyudmila on other photos.

Even after this excavation there is still a good possibility that the 10th group member is found by the second search party.

If so, then there is always the limited possibility that Semyon had survived the tour, because he had survived the night together with ZInaida and Rustem in the tent within my theory.

Semyon is a very special character, surviving the Great War and the years after the Great War when soldiers in Germany were not expected to come back because those had seen the 'wealth and perversity' in German Houses. He had been able to move rather easily and he had been parachuted in this group (as guardian of the rule of Communist Party?). He was extremely social able, while he stands rather stiff on the photos.
The journalist collective Aleksej Rakitin describe Semyon in many pages.
A book on objects belonging to Russian soldiers in the Great War states that identity fraude was very easy at several moment, because the Russian army was desparately looking for new troups: they took every man whatever his name.

[Arjan]

@ Ziljoe and others of course

Of course parachutes don't work very well on high altitudes, and I have my question marks if these had been the cause for the pressure wave.

But anyway, let's explore the bombs on parachutes a little further.

Why parachutes?
To let the bomber be able to have a decent distance from the epicentre of the blast.

Why a pressure wave with a centre high in the air?
The flight of the U2 overhead would be disturbed so no accurate photo taking was possible.

Why a blast with the epicentre high in the air?
To be closer to the U2
The surface of the earth will reflect the supersonic pressure wave, so the energy during those milliseconds is prolonged with 40 % or so, or two pressure waves will hit the U2 followed with an underpressure during one second, so the U2 will 'stall' during one second: no fun for the pilot and not good for photo taking.

And the balloons?
A balloon it by its nature hollow.
The pressure wave will compress the balloon during several milliseconds followed by an underpressure causing the balloon to expand well beyond is normal seize and may causing a rupture in the balloon.

All above makes sense, but is it likely?

If it had factually taken place, the group members had been wrong persons at the wrong place.

[Ziljoe]

@ Arjan

The U2 plane flew at altitudes up to 70000feet so it could avoid Russian radar and ground missiles . The problem with any parachutes being used , in any capacity is to get a parachute deployed above the flight path of the U2 spy plane . If they had a plane that could reach those altitudes and at those speeds that would be fast enough, then missiles or common to that plane would be enough to shoot down the U2 spy plane.

Plus I don't think the Soviet Union would drop parachutes with explosives that could end up randomly landing anywhere and if this explosion reflect off the earth what would happen to domestic flights?

Unfortunately, for me a parachute doesn't make much sense in any practical terms but an interesting thought exercise.

[Arjan]

@ Ziljoe

Probably you are right.

I did my best to make the most of the idea that I remember having read in the book by Aleksej Rakitin.

I still don't fully abolish this idea, because during warfare more farfetching inventions had been used, like a 'firepipe' going up the walls of a city during the Pelopponesian War some 400 BC.

The effectiveness of these inventions depends on:
- goal aiming
- goal reaching
- goal hitting
- goal appropriate/efficient without overdoing. 

Anyway, I pressure wave ought to have reached over 20.000 meters high, although the magnitude depends on the highspeed explosives.
To be effective for an U2, it ought to have been a very big explosive.

Maybe/probably this bomb on parachutes might be effective for balloons.

Looking at the injuries of the group members, it may well be possible to calculate the relation between distance and altitude of the epicentre of the blast that may have caused havoc for the group members with the timeline I have drafted.
I have no intention to do so.