Medical question

[amashilu]

It would be interesting to know what kind(s) of injuries blow apart the bones and tissues inside the body, while leaving the external body (skin etc) unmarred. Besides an explosion, what else can do this?

Ziljoe, please forgive me if this topic has been discussed before.

[Teddy]

Trauma that does not leave skin abrasions typically involves blunt force trauma, where the skin remains intact but underlying tissues and organs are damaged. Blunt force trauma is injury to the body from a forceful impact with a dull object or surface, without breaking the skin, though it can cause skin tears or abrasions. It results from collisions (like car crashes), falls, or assaults, causing internal damage, bruises (contusions), fractures, and organ injury, often from rapid acceleration/deceleration or crushing forces. Symptoms include pain, swelling, bruising, and sometimes difficulty breathing or dizziness, varying greatly by severity and location, and can range from mild to life-threatening.

High-velocity trauma examples include gunshot wounds, high-speed motor vehicle accidents, falls from significant heights, and blast injuries, all characterized by rapid energy transfer causing extensive tissue damage, bone fractures (like skull base fractures), and severe brain injuries such as Diffuse Axonal Injury (DAI) through temporary cavitation.

A fallen tree can absolutely cause high-velocity trauma, especially when it falls on a person from a significant height. The sheer mass of a large tree, combined with the forces involved in its fall or impact, generates immense kinetic energy.

[Ziljoe]

It would be interesting to know what kind(s) of injuries blow apart the bones and tissues inside the body, while leaving the external body (skin etc) unmarred. Besides an explosion, what else can do this?

Ziljoe, please forgive me if this topic has been discussed before.

Hey, please forgive my grumpiness. Please continue . I actually don't think this is a topic that's been discussed in any great detail.However, the injuries also seem to be consistent with crush injuries. This has been suggested by some "experts" and I was reading on a medical forum , but the people asked were non committed as there's not enough information.

[Teddy]

A crush injury happens when extreme pressure is put on a body part, squeezing it between heavy objects, causing damage to skin, muscles, nerves, bones, and blood vessels, leading to bleeding, swelling, fractures, nerve damage, and potentially life-threatening complications like compartment syndrome or crush syndrome, which involves kidney failure from muscle breakdown.

[amashilu]

Teddy, do you have any idea what are the odds that all four of the Ravine4 had this kind of “nothing showing on the outside” blunt force injury? That is, if a tree fell on everyone or a geologists bomb exploded, does it seem mathematically probable that four of them would show this kind of injury? I know I have bashed my tibia with absolutely no bruising on the skin to indicate there was an injury underneath, but it was a rare occurrence for me.

[Teddy]

I don't know about odds.
Kolevatov didn't have any of this.

[amashilu]

To sum up:  high velocity impact, explosion, crushing, or intense squeezing.

[Teddy]

A crush injury happens when extreme pressure is put on a body part, squeezing it between heavy objects, causing damage to skin, muscles, nerves, bones, and blood vessels, leading to bleeding, swelling, fractures, nerve damage, and potentially life-threatening complications like compartment syndrome or crush syndrome, which involves kidney failure from muscle breakdown.

Crushing or intense squeezing would leave damage to the skin. I marked it with blue.

[amashilu]

So then, to sum up (without crushing or squeezing):

High velocity trauma, explosion, or rapid energy transfer.

[Teddy]

The definition of high velocity trauma is rapid energy transfer.

You are looking for:
gunshot wounds
high-speed motor vehicle accidents
falls from significant heights
blast injuries
a fallen tree

[amashilu]

That’s fascinating. Where could this have come from, in such a remote snowy place? As far as I know, only 1) tree falling, or 2) explosion.

For example, the doctor compared it to a high speed auto crash (which of course couldn’t happen there). Some people put their money on a collapse of a snow cornice, but that would be intense squeezing or crushing.

[amashilu]

The definition of high velocity trauma is rapid energy transfer.

You are looking for:
gunshot wounds (no bullet holes)
high-speed motor vehicle accidents (not possible)
falls from significant heights (should be discussed?)
blast injuries
a fallen tree

Taking advantage of AI, I asked what force could do severe, lethal damage to the internal body including broken ribs, but leave the external body unmarked, and after all this time, it said the same thing as the dr from 1959: high velocity trauma such as high-speed motor vehicle accident, or explosion (rapid energy transfer). (It didn't mention a tree falling, but that is too specific and outside the scope of this question for AI. I will ask it next.)

I asked if an explosion could also cause severe burns and it said yes, but not from the explosion itself, rather from hot gases and heat, and that a lot depends on where each individual was located when said explosion occurred.:

How explosions cause burns
The heat of an explosion can create “flash burns,” where exposed skin is burned in a fraction of a second by radiant heat and hot gases.

The Ravine4's internal injuries with no external marks, and Krivonischenko's leg burn, are facts that need to be always taken into account when tracking down the cause of death. To me, these injuries point to only two possibilities: an explosion or a tree falling.

What kind of explosion?
1) It is known that geologists were using explosives.
2) Third-stage rocket that went off course and is leaking.
3) Plasma ball (due to highly charged weather conditions, thundersnow, magnetic anomalies)



​

[Ziljoe]

I asked AI and a snow collapse matches quite well. I even put the quote from the autopsy .


Conclusion:

Based on the forensic examination of the body of L. A. Dubinina I think that the death of Dubinina was caused by massive hemorrhage into the right ventricle, multiple bilateral rib fractures, and internal bleeding into the thoracic cavity.

The said damage was probably caused by an impact of great force causing severe closed lethal trauma to the chest of Dubinina. The trauma was caused during life and is the result of high force impact with subsequent fall, throw or bruise to the chest of Dubinina.

Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.

Dubinina died a violent death.

Medical examiner signature (Vozrozhdenniy)

Based on the examination of the body of Zolotaryov, 37 years old, I think that he died due to multiple fractures of the right ribs with internal hemorrhaging to the pleural cavity while at a low temperature. The above mentioned multiple fractures of Zolotaryov’s ribs with hemorrhaging into the pleural cavity were caused in vivo as an effect of a high-power impact to the chest of Zolotaryov at the moment of his fall, squeezing or throwing. The damage of the soft tissue in the area of Mr. Zolotaryov’s head and the presence of bath skin in the area of fingers and upper and lower extremities are postmortem changes in the body of Zolotaryov, which was underwater before it was found.

Zolotaryov died a violent death.

Forensic Medical Examiner - signature (Vozrozhdenniy)




The autopsy reports with the knowledge they had at the time seem to fit with what AI says. Crush injury looks to be consistent and we have a tree and/or 3 meters of snow above the 4 in the ravine with the injuries. It's not just the fractured ribs that fit with a crush but the internal bleeding in the right ventricle thoracic cavity and plural cavity.

AI Overview



+10
A flail chest—where adjacent ribs are fractured in at least two places, causing a segment of the chest wall to move independently (paradoxically)—can occur without visible external marks (bruising or lacerations) due to the nature of the impacting force.
This scenario, known as a "silent" or mark-free flail chest, is usually caused by:
Significant Blunt Force Over a Large Surface Area: A broad, flat object impacting the chest can cause massive internal damage (fracturing ribs in multiple spots) without breaking the skin or causing immediate, visible bruising.
Deceleration Injury (e.g., Seat Belt or Steering Wheel): In high-speed motor vehicle accidents, the body may hit the steering wheel, causing immense pressure. If the energy is distributed across a large area, the skin may remain intact despite fractured, flail ribs underneath.
Rapid Crush Injury: A heavy object landing directly on the chest can crush the ribs, leading to double-fractures and a flail segment. The pressure is blunt and applied instantaneously, which may not cause surface bruising.
Significant Falls (especially in the Elderly): A fall from a height onto a blunt surface (like a railing or edge of a table) can cause such injuries. The elderly are particularly susceptible because osteoporosis makes their bones fragile, allowing a lower-force impact to break ribs in multiple places without severe soft tissue damage.


AI Overview



+13
A collapsed snow hole (snow cave) can cause severe crush injuries due to the high density and weight of compacted snow, leading to life-threatening thoracic trauma such as flail chest. A flail chest occurs when 3 or more consecutive ribs are fractured in 2 or more places, creating a free-floating, unstable segment of the chest wall that moves paradoxically (inward on inspiration, outward on expiration).
Mechanisms and Injuries in Snow Collapse
Crush Mechanism: When a snow structure collapses, it can act similarly to a structural collapse or avalanche, trapping the occupant and applying intense, direct pressure on the chest and abdomen.
Flail Chest Pathophysiology: The intense pressure breaks ribs in multiple locations, causing a portion of the rib cage to separate from the thoracic cavity.
Associated Injuries: Along with flail segments, these injuries are frequently accompanied by severe pulmonary contusions (bruising of the lung), pneumothorax (collapsed lung), or hemothorax (blood in the chest cavity).
Systemic Effects: The compression can lead to hypoxia (low oxygen),, and in cases of prolonged compression, crush syndrome, which can cause muscle damage and kidney failure.

AI Overview


+14
Autopsy findings in fatal flail chest crush injuries, typically resulting from high-energy blunt trauma like vehicular accidents or heavy compression, reveal extensive damage beyond the broken ribs and paradoxical movement. Key, often fatal, findings include severe underlying pulmonary contusion (bruising), hemothorax (blood in the chest cavity), and, frequently, signs of crush asphyxia.
Other common autopsy findings from flail chest crush injuries include:
Internal Intrathoracic Findings
Pulmonary Contusion/Laceration: Nearly universal; involves hemorrhage, edema, and sometimes necrosis of the lung parenchyma, which is often the actual cause of respiratory failure.
Pneumothorax and Hemothorax: Air (pneumothorax) or significant blood (hemothorax) trapped in the pleural cavity, which causes lung collapse.
Cardiac and Great Vessel Injuries: Contusion of the heart muscle, rupture of the aorta, or hemopericardium (blood in the pericardial sac).
Tracheobronchial Injury: Lacerations to the airway, which can lead to air leak and mediastinal emphysema.
Diaphragmatic Rupture: Tears in the diaphragm due to high-pressure abdominal compression.
External and Soft Tissue Findings
Crush Asphyxia (Traumatic Asphyxia): Characterized by intense purple congestion and swelling of the face, neck, and upper chest, caused by increased intrathoracic pressure.
Subconjunctival and Facial Petechiae: Minute red dots (petechial hemorrhages) on the skin of the face, neck, and conjunctivae (eyes), resulting from blood vessel rupture due to pressure.
Seatbelt or Steering Wheel Marks: External bruises or abrasions, which can be clues to the mechanism of high-energy impact.
Subcutaneous Emphysema: Air under the skin, which creates a "crackling" or "crunching" feeling when palpated.
Associated Non-Thoracic Injuries
Solid Organ Damage: Injury to the liver, spleen, or kidneys, often associated with lower rib fractures.
Spinal Injuries: Fractures or dislocations of the thoracic spine, a common result of high-energy trauma.
Rhabdomyolysis: In cases of prolonged crushing, breakdown of muscle tissue may occur, which can be seen as myoglobinuria (myoglobin in urine).

Yes, the combination of injuries described—hemorrhage into the right ventricle, multiple bilateral rib fractures, and internal bleeding into the thoracic cavity (hemothorax)—could be caused by severe crush injuries from a snow cave or ice cave collapse.
These injuries are consistent with high-energy blunt force trauma, which is frequently seen in cases where heavy ice or snow falls onto a person.
Mechanism of Injury in a Collapse
Crush Mechanism: When a snow or ice cave collapses, the victim is subjected to intense, concentrated weight. If this weight lands on the chest, it causes a "crush injury".
Multiple Bilateral Rib Fractures: The severe pressure can break multiple ribs on both sides of the chest, potentially creating a "flail chest," where a segment of the rib cage becomes detached from the rest.
Hemothorax (Internal Bleeding): The fractured ribs can lacerate intercostal blood vessels or the lung tissue, leading to massive bleeding into the thoracic cavity (hemothorax).
Right Ventricle Hemorrhage: The massive, direct impact can compress the heart between the sternum and spine, causing blunt cardiac injury or even perforation of the heart by a broken rib fragment.
Relevance to Snow/Ice Cave Collapses
High Impact Force: Collapsed ice, in particular, is extremely heavy and dense, capable of causing fatal trauma to the chest, head, and bones.
Documented Fatalities: Similar incidents, such as ice cave collapses in Iceland or Washington, have resulted in fatalities with severe crush injuries and broken bones.
Similar to Other Accidents: The trauma is similar in nature to injuries sustained in major motor vehicle collisions, specifically those involving blunt chest trauma.

AI Overview



+14
A massive hemorrhage into the right ventricle combined with flail ribs, often resulting from severe crush injuries such as landslides, constitutes a critical, life-threatening thoracic emergency. It requires immediate, aggressive, and specialized care to manage the unstable chest wall (flail segment) and potential underlying cardiac rupture or contusion.
Key Clinical Aspects
Mechanism of Injury: Landslide crush injuries involve immense blunt force, causing multiple rib fractures (3+ ribs in 2+ places) and severe chest wall destabilization, known as flail chest.
Pathophysiology:
Flail Chest: The damaged chest wall moves paradoxically (inward on inspiration, outward on expiration), which severely restricts breathing and causes acute respiratory distress.
Right Ventricular (RV) Hemorrhage: The direct crushing force can cause cardiac contusion or rupture. Because the right ventricle is positioned directly behind the sternum, it is highly susceptible to blunt trauma.
Complications: These injuries are often accompanied by significant haemothorax (blood in the chest cavity), pneumothorax (collapsed lung), and severe lung contusion.


The cedar branches were definitely used for a fire . A lot of melted snow was found around the fire when the snow had melted, some of the branches were under one of the Yruis about the same diameter as the fire and they were broken in several places. There were also branches that were broken left hanging on lower branches . The fire was estimated to have burned for an 1.5 hours. Burns were found on the socks and clothing of a number of the hikers , they are mostly superficial and localised . They are consistent with people trying to warm their limbs , especially when feeling has gone. A wool sock was found in the fire along with a number of items of clothing , one being a handkerchief and a hat/balaclava. The sock matched the other one on Yuri's body that he was wearing.

I would suspect that the majority of burns to the flesh and clothing were done at the fire around the cedar.

[amashilu]

Thanks, Ziljoe, this will take me awhile to read through so I will respond after.

I don't think the sad little fire that burned out in 90 minutes or less was responsible for those burns. I have no evidence for this, other than that it just isn't reasonable.

[Ziljoe]

Thanks, Ziljoe, this will take me awhile to read through so I will respond after.

I don't think the sad little fire that burned out in 90 minutes or less was responsible for those burns. I have no evidence for this, other than that it just isn't reasonable.

I think people freezing do stick their frozen limbs in to fires.

AI Overview



+15
Evidence confirms that people experiencing severe freezing or frostbite can, and do, suffer severe burn injuries by placing their frozen limbs directly into fires, often as an misguided attempt to rewarm them. This phenomenon is driven by the loss of sensation (anesthesia) in the affected tissue, making it impossible for the individual to feel that they are being burned.
Evidence and Mechanisms
Loss of Sensation (Anaesthesia): Frostbitten skin freezes, causing severe neurovascular damage and leading to a loss of feeling. Consequently, when a person places a numb, frozen hand or foot into a fire, they cannot feel the heat and fail to remove the limb until severe burns occur.
Misguided "Treatment": Open fire is sometimes used in survival or emergency situations, despite being dangerous. It is recognized in medical literature that direct heat from open fires causes additional injury, such as burns, infection, and gangrene, to already damaged tissue.
"Paradoxical" Reactions: While most often associated with "paradoxical undressing" (where people freezing to death strip off clothes), the severe, altered mental state of hypothermia can lead to irrational behaviors, including placing limbs into heat sources to alleviate the pain of rewarming, which feels like burning.
Clinical Findings: Burn centers have reported cases of "cold burns," where cold-induced injuries were managed inappropriately or caused by unintentional, severe, or direct heat exposure.
Why This Occurs
The freezing process causes nerves to stop functioning. If a person has already lost sensation to their fingers or toes due to frostbite, they are essentially burning a body part they cannot feel. This is distinct from—but shares, in terms of resulting trauma—the damage mechanisms described in studies of self-inflicted injuries, where limbs are placed in extreme cold (dry ice) or heat.

[amashilu]

Yes, I get it.

But I also keep in mind that these were not inexperienced people. They were skilled, educated, and experienced at winter hiking. It was known in 1959 that people who were freezing sometimes did weird things, such as take off their clothes in the strange sensation that they were hot, or put their limbs in fires because they had gone numb from cold. I believe they would have avoided these known dangerous behaviors because they knew about them and were conscientious at avoiding them.

Add to that the fact that Krivonischenko bit off his finger, which, to me, says he was in terrible pain, and I believe that was from an unintentional burn on his leg.

[Ziljoe]

Im not sure if anyone knew about the effects of cold in 1959 and the evidence is still vague.

Evidence-based documentation of paradoxical undressing transitioned from anecdotal observations to systematic forensic study in the mid-20th century. While historical accounts exist, the formal scientific recognition of the phenomenon as a physiological response to lethal hypothermia is relatively recent.
Key Milestones in Evidence-Based Practice
Early Scientific Reports (1970s): Forensic literature began documenting systematic cases in the early 1970s. Gormsen (1972) and Gee (1974) provided early clinical descriptions that moved beyond folklore, establishing it as a recognised medical phenomenon.
The Swedish Police Report Study (1979): A seminal evidence-based study by Wedin et al. (1979) analyzed 33 cases from Swedish police reports. This research was pivotal in concluding that the behavior is likely caused by peripheral vasodilation—a "hot flash" occurring when the muscles responsible for constricting blood vessels finally fail.
Forensic Differentiation: Modern forensic practice uses these documented cases to distinguish hypothermia deaths from homicides or sexual assaults, as victims are often found naked or partially undressed in public or unusual locations.
Link to Terminal Burrowing: Evidence-based reviews also linked paradoxical undressing to "terminal burrowing", an autonomous brain-stem response where victims crawl into small, enclosed spaces (under beds or behind furniture) immediately before death.



The reason it's vague is because it's rare and it's difficult to get  substantial evidence to collate the reasons why. I don't think they would have known. There's recent more evidence that people that know about it have done the same thing, that is stuck there limbs in a fire. ( Which we all may have done for fun) But when you can't feel the burning, you don't know.

There's also the other catch. Your limbs a freezing, what do you do , let them freeze solid or try to do something about it?. Your poorly clothed, your joints are becoming solid . Even with a rational mind , one might think it's better to suffer skin burn so you can move to save yourself as the alternative is you just die and freeze.

Krivonischenko did not bite off his finger. There is a clear difference in what was found from his finger in his mouth. There are no reports of him biting his finger off in any reports or the autopsy.

[Missi]

While I do realize, that freezing causes pain and loss of sensation and find it plausible, that extreme cases happen rarely, I want to remind you, that we're talking about people living in an area, where it gets really cold in winter and people are used to it. I watched a documentation (completely unrelated by topic) in that a group of people was traveling through Russia in winter. Naked skin showed first signs of freezing after a few minutes. In such an environment I believe people know how to handle cold and injuries caused by it. People know for a long time now, that you treat frozen limbs by heating them very slowly.
I'm not sure, if it's plausible that they had some kind of brain fog because of the cold and hypothermia. I do believe, they the necessity of heating frozen limbs slowly must have been known to them. Keep in mind, that one of the other groups (I believe it was the one they traveled with in the bus for some time) came back with frost bites, so hikers in that area seemed to experience mild injuries by cold on a somewhat regular basis. But that's again no prove, just plausibility. If I can come up with definitive statements, I'll tell you. :)

[amashilu]

Krivonischenko did not bite off his finger. There is a clear difference in what was found from his finger in his mouth. There are no reports of him biting his finger off in any reports or the autopsy.

Yes, I said he bit off his finger, and you are correct, I should have been more exact: He bit off a piece of his finger. But you already know this. Not sure why you want me to go to the autopsy report and quote it for you. But here it is:

From Krivonischenko autopsy report:  On the middle phalanx of the third [changed from the word ‘middle’] finger is a defect in the epidermis with the same shape and form as that found in the oral cavity.

I stand by my belief that these people were not inexperienced newbies. They would have been aware of the symptoms and behaviors of others who got into dangerous freezing situations, or even died, before their own hike. You try to find scientific evidence that they didn't know about such things back in 1959, but legends, stories, tales, are passed around a community and down to the generations. They knew.

[amashilu]

Asking AI if a tree falling on someone could cause rib fractures without leaving external marks:

Yes, it is possible, but it would be unusual with a full tree impact and depends on how exactly the force is applied.

Rib fractures almost always follow significant blunt trauma, such as car crashes, falls, or being struck by heavy objects, including trees or large branches.
​
These injuries typically cause some external sign: bruising, abrasions, or swelling over the chest wall, although the visible marks can sometimes be surprisingly minor compared with the internal damage.
​
In blunt chest trauma, the skin and soft tissues can remain mostly intact while the force is transmitted to the ribs underneath, leading to cracks or breaks without obvious cuts or large bruises on the surface.
​

[Ziljoe]

Krivonischenko did not bite off his finger. There is a clear difference in what was found from his finger in his mouth. There are no reports of him biting his finger off in any reports or the autopsy.

Yes, I said he bit off his finger, and you are correct, I should have been more exact: He bit off a piece of his finger. But you already know this. Not sure why you want me to go to the autopsy report and quote it for you. But here it is:

From Krivonischenko autopsy report:  On the middle phalanx of the third [changed from the word ‘middle’] finger is a defect in the epidermis with the same shape and form as that found in the oral cavity.

I stand by my belief that these people were not inexperienced newbies. They would have been aware of the symptoms and behaviors of others who got into dangerous freezing situations, or even died, before their own hike. You try to find scientific evidence for them not knowing about such things before 1959, but legends, stories, tales, are passed around a community and down to the generations.

He had a bit of skin from his finger in his mouth as I understand it. This does not mean he was in terrible pain , neither does it mean he bit off his finger which you corrected.

There are the stereotypes of a cowboy or someone biting on a stick ,arrow or leather when they are about to receive pain. I believe this was mostly to do with protecting the teeth but it's perhaps an urban myth through films.

I have to ask the question to why you suggest he bit off a bit of his finger because he was in pain? For me this statement doesn't make sense.

I don't think it would matter if they were experienced or newbies once the cold,and forsbite starts. There has been many of experienced hikers or people with knowledge of freezing and what one should do or not do but there comes a tipping point to survival and perhaps , with knowledge, that you are dammed if your hands don't work and your legs. There is no warm house or warm water to remedy the situation close by. It would become a serious situation where you have to sacrifice the possibility of disfigurement or limb loss or you die. Basically, there is no option.

We can only go on what was understood at the time and today. The behaviour is consistent with what little research and evidence we have managed to collate across many countries to date.

The hikers had a lack of adequate clothing and resources to combat the situation they found themselves in. I'm not sure what your argument is but I am not trying to find scientific evidence for the not knowing because it's irrelevant to their situation or knowledge. They are basically f**ked in the clothing they had or any knowledge possible about frostbite, there was nothing they could do but try to build a shelter and fire , which they attempted to do on both accounts and it's this that the evidence points at.

They left the tent for whatever reason, they walked down the slope and the foot prints were seen. They were poorly clothed for a long term exposure to the conditions. A den with flooring was made and a fire for I assume was warmth and perhaps the drying of clothes.

[SURI]

Citing scientific studies doesn't help much because it doesn't mean the same thing happened with DPI. Each case is individual and cannot be generalized. You can't say, here they stuck their limbs into the fire because it's written somewhere. There an avalanche fell because it's written somewhere. You always have to consider the whole context of the event.

[Ziljoe]

Citing scientific studies doesn't help much because it doesn't mean the same thing happened with DPI. Each case is individual and cannot be generalized. You can't say, here they stuck their limbs into the fire because it's written somewhere. There an avalanche fell because it's written somewhere. You always have to consider the whole context of the event.

Of course it doesn't mean the same thing happened but we also can't say people don't stick there limbs in a fire and suffer burns when freezing when there's evidence they do. It is not a generalisation to look at the possible reason for the injuries from evidence based research. The thread is titled" medical question" and we are exploring what could cause such injuries.  How else would we discuss the topic?

We have debated that the burns for example came from , ball lighting, an explosion, gases from a rocket , torture from outsiders , the collapse of a tree on the tent when the wood stove was installed to name a few.

There is plenty of generalisation by everyone but I think we are trying to be specific. The logic would be that the people with the burns got them from the fire as they are next to a fire , in and around that fire are items that belong to the group, some that match the items of the two yuris , one being a sock in the fire , the other matching sock is on the hiker. It is not a huge leap of faith to consider that these burns are from the fire .

If we take into consideration medical research from other examples of people dying from the cold,it may give us a picture and a context for the individual events that may have happened.

This is how they wrote the autopsy, with knowledge collated over many years of medical research. how do we consider the whole context of the event?

My context is that 9 humans went hiking in cold weather and they found themselves without the resources they needed to survive. That's the background and setting. That's the context.

We can add , UFO's , yeti, KGB , rockets, secret bases , nuclear secrets and the ghost of evil but there are still the laws of  physical injuries . Any of the above may have been involved but the odds are , perhaps having been chased out and away from the tent , the hikers had to survive. Making a den and a fire is a nod , clue, hint to battling the cold.

[amashilu]

Ziljoe, the scenario you propose makes sense in terms of the socks, one in the fire and one on the foot. But in other respects, it does not make any sense at all.

It has been concluded by many that the 2 Yuris were the first to die, and their bodies were laid together by the fire. In your scenario, Yuri K left the tent with the others and walked down to the cedar, where he built a small fire and stuck his leg in it, keeping it there until the skin was bursting.
Then for some reason part of one finger ended up in his mouth, but he did not bite it off. Then he died. Right? Can you add something to this story to make it less nonsensical?

[Ziljoe]

Ziljoe, the scenario you propose makes sense in terms of the socks, one in the fire and one on the foot. But in other respects, it does not make any sense at all.

It has been concluded by many that the 2 Yuris were the first to die, and their bodies were laid together by the fire. In your scenario, Yuri K left the tent with the others, walked down to the cedar, built a small fire, and stuck his leg in it until the skin was bursting.
Then for some reason part of one finger ended up in his mouth, but he did not bite it off. Then he died. Right? Can you add something to this story to make it less nonsensical?

Sorry amashilu.

The way I view the the activity around the fire was that it had to serve a purpose and I don't think it's for roasting marshmallows. It takes time and energy to build a fire and decide on it's location whilst you know the cold is compromising you. By all accounts and statements we have a large amount of activity at the Cedar, this includes a birch tree with cuts but did not succeed, broken branches on a cedar up to 5 meters high, the branches from the cedar under the yuris ( insulation?) , branches hanging off other branches and branches in a fire that had burnt itself out. There was a sock in the fire that matched the other single sock from Yuri. Socks don't jump from people's feet into fire by themselves, it is a wool sock and wool is not great for burning. We also have a hat / balaclava, handkerchief, money , shirt, jumper around the cedar . Some off the clothing was assumed to be cut off.

There is no my scenario and I'm not suggesting Yuri K walked down and started a fire without anyone else. There is no need to call the fire small or sad. The fire was made for a reason and would be a life saver given the fact that they were freezing and died of hypothermia.

It would all depend on the hikers state of hypothermia as to how useful or a successful a fire would be. The fire was significant enough that other wood could have been collected but at some point the fire was left to burn out.

It is you that says  Yuri K left the tent with the others, walked down to the cedar, built a small fire, and stuck his leg in it until the skin was bursting. However,It would be reasonable to assume that Yuri k walked down with the others , ended up at the cedar under his own power and some of the hikers started a fire because that's what the evidence tells us.

Below is from the autopsy.

"The bottom left half of the long underwear is missing up to the knee; the edge of the tear is uneven and charred. Under the long underwear are blue 2-knit satin shorts. On the left leg is a torn cotton sock, the edges of which are burned."

"On the middle phalanx of the third [changed from the word ‘middle’] finger is a defect in the epidermis with the same shape and form as that found in the oral cavity."( It's a bit of skin)

"There are dark brown flesh wounds on the middle phalanx of fingers 4-5 with sizes of 1.5 x 1 cm and 1 x 0.5 cm that are solid when palpated and are charred"
 
(The following two quotes are from different translations , and one says skin bursting and the other says skin cracked.)

"There is a burn across the entire surface of the left anticnemion with a size of 31 x 10 cm with parchment density. In the lower third of the left shin is of a brown-black color with charred tissue and and bursting skin, then in the middle third and upper third the burn surface is bright red and light brown."

"Across the entire outer surface of the shin, there is a burn surface measuring 31 x 10 cm of parchment thickness. In the lower third of the left shin (added by hand), there is a brownish-black burn with charred tissue and cracked skin, then in the middle third and upper third, there is a burn surface of a bright red and light brown color. "

"The back of the second toe is charred and the skin is dark brown in color and tight when palpated"

From the autopsy conclusion file.


frostbite of the fingers and toes, and second- and third-degree burns /by the fire/ (or fire).


So yes, the two Yuris might have been the first to die but that doesn't change the fire being the most likely cause of the burns. Frostbite was already occuring , without the correct help it gets serious, as explained  , people start to lose sensation, it's known that even experienced people will put limbs in a fire and burn themselves. We have burnt and charred clothing and other small burn wounds , these revolve around hands, socks , lower limb clothing shin and toes . The charred clothes are found in the fire , around the fire and on Yuri K.

Possible scenarios are that when reaching the ravine there was a fall or collapse of some sort, we have seen the ravine in many extremes of snow height , overhangs etc. it's a potential hazard and again we know the hikers were there. The Yuris may have fallen first or broke through a snow bridge further up the slope and got wet or even at the ravine. The need to take clothes off and dry them would be urgent and this may have been the driving force for the need of the fire. The Yuris may have been left by other hikers once the fire was started whilst the others built the snow den or were attending other hikers that were injured at the ravine . On returning to the cedar , Zina , Rustem and Igor find the Yuris lying too close to the fire and move them as it is too late for them.

Whatever theory that is put forward regarding the hikers leaving the tent , the burn injuries seems the easiest to explain and accept.

[amashilu]

I don't think we disagree on the facts.

What I think is happening is that you are focusing only on physical facts (socks, a fire, etc.), whereas I am attempting to look at the physical facts and the psychological as well. What makes sense?

What I see is nine experienced hikers, who understood the dangers of a Siberian winter, who were intelligent engineers who had designed and built their own radios and stoves and cramp-ons for just such a trip. If one of them might be tempted to do something foolish out of fear and pain, such as put his leg in the fire, there were EIGHT others who would stop him. Not to mention one had gone through all of World War II apparently without injury, which is an amazing accomplishment in itself.

As to Yuri K, do you really think he would put his leg right into the fire and hold it there long enough to burn off his pants and his underwear -- and that no one would stop him? Do you really think he did not bite his finger?

Because this is really a mystery and we don't know what happened, I need it to make not only physical sense, but psychological sense as well.

[Ziljoe]

Ooft...

It would not matter what their experience was or their intelligence if the dice had already been rolled.

They had nothing to sustain their body heat. The effects of hypothermia would be continuously working against them. Due to individual DNA ,  clothing and their own physical make up , they would all be starting to fail at different levels of hypothermia.

I absolutely do believe Yuri k would maybe hold his limbs to close to the fire if he is losing feeling in those limbs . He may have passed out and lay too close to the fire and then was moved. It would seem thatat least one of the other 8 moved him away from the fire .

it has happened to people in far less cold conditions. The fear is being alive and knowing that you can't move or feal your limbs , that there is no immediate help and if you even live you will probably lose fingers and toes. He may have realised he needed to be mobile for survival or was just trying to warm his limbs but because of lack of feeling he burnt himself.

Others in the group may have been building the den at that time , the yuris may have been the first to dig the snow hole or climb the tree in order to save the others.

It is not foolish to try and heat limbs by a fire , it is a natural reaction even if you know that it could make things worse.

It looks like he had skin in his mouth that matches the skin from his hand. This could be a result of climbing the tree or breaking branches and biting off a skin tag or an effort to feel sensation. To maybe suck and lick a wound to thaw his knuckles.


The internet has many examples of this behaviour when hypothermia is involved ,as does our forum.

There actions are not stupid relative to their intelligence, rather their options were running out. Obviously other explanations can and are being put forward but I wouldn't underestimate the affects of continuous cold , being wet and the obstacle that was the ravine playing it's part.

[Missi]

Taken by itself, if there was no other means of surviving, I can imagine someone going to desperate means and get to close to the fire. That definitely requires the limbs to get numb of cold. This revolves around that tripping point you mentioned. Before that is reached, it's too much of a risk and that was known, I think. Again, we'd have to prove that for sure.

About the biting part: Yes, people did use wood, leather or other things to bite on. This was part to protecting the teeth, part to protect the tongue, when losing sense from pain.
I can imagine, someone biting their finger for that reason. I also can imagine them biting off a piece of skin. What's a little strange to me is: Why didn't they spit it out or gulped it down? Did they just die after biting it off? Did they go unconscious directly after? You wouldn't keep a piece of bitten off skin in your mouth for some time, surely?

Did anyone ever think about the fact, they might have resorted to so desperate means as to try to burn their clothes because they couldn't get any more wood? I'm not sure how one would react, if they'd think clothes or fire as more important. From the warmth of my home, I'd say clothes...

And then there's the fact that this line of arguments only makes sense, if you start at the premise that they indeed put the tent up where it was found. If you follow the theory of them putting up the tent down in the forest where they were buried under a falling tree, that fire can very well be one they lit in the evening to cook and write the evening Otorten.

I find that part very exhausting, that you can only evaluate small parts and they make sense and then you put them together and they don't fit, so you try to shift what happened and suddenly what didn't fit makes sense, but all the other things don't apply any more and seem to be ridiculous.

[sarapuk]

It would be interesting to know what kind(s) of injuries blow apart the bones and tissues inside the body, while leaving the external body (skin etc) unmarred. Besides an explosion, what else can do this?

Ziljoe, please forgive me if this topic has been discussed before.

You mean what kind of force. An unknown force according to the authorities and who can argue with that. We are still searching for answers. Ivanov did mention a beam of radiation. What kind of radiation and how could it have been used. Are we in the realm of science fiction or science fact.

[sarapuk]

So then, to sum up (without crushing or squeezing):

High velocity trauma, explosion, or rapid energy transfer.

Rapid Energy Transfer could come from a force applied to a body. 4 kinds of RET are commonly known. Heat. Mechanical. Electrical. Radiation. The injuries to 2 of the group also include extraordinary injuries that may have been caused by some kind of electrical or radioactive force, or our infamous unknown force.