Nothing goes there

[GlennM]

I went there...on Google Earth. What I saw were well defined dirt roads for vehicles. I saw a number of vehicles at what I assumed is Boot Rock. What I did not see were foot trails, nor animal trails. When the Mansi said," nothing goes there", I can believe it. The closest thing to a trail are streams and tributaries of streams.

So, 60 years ago there were probably far less etched up roads. Certainly in winter, nothing visible. Boot rock was just a rock, much like any other. The ground is bare of vegetation and carpeted with what looks like loose shale. It would be a place to make a quicker crossing to Otorten along the ridge route.

Looking at the forest below, I am again struck by the absence of trails. The woods are thick, probable never lumbered out. From the cedar to Otorten, as the crow flies, there is a lot of woodsy up and down terrain, again with no trails. It would be a poor, poor place to try to hike through.

I can appreciate Dyatlov Pass getting a ceremonial name, even it was never used. It would just be too much trouble to bushwhack through all those trees when hikers could go unimpeded by going higher and taking the ridge route.

1079 and Otorten are a long way from anywhere. The idea of Soviets wasting time an energy trying to learn from rocket tests by going there to analyze debris is not what I would expect from an organized military.

The DP9 chose a rare place to do a long hike and would certainly deserve the Grade 3 rating. Too bad about the weather.

[Senior Maldonado]

1079 and Otorten are a long way from anywhere. The idea of Soviets wasting time an energy trying to learn from rocket tests by going there to analyze debris is not what I would expect from an organized military.

Areas that "are a long way from anywhere" have a unique advantage. Rockets trajectories can be set up over those areas without a risk to hit anybody (or anything) in case of launch failure. A rocket started from Tyuratam typicaly flies over about 3/4 of the RSFSR's territory. It is wise to select low populated areas for its trajectory.

As beginning of February 1959 was time of XXI CPSU congress, an attempt to provide CPSU with a gift - successful breakthrogh orbital or suborbital launch - looks plausible. We can talk about bold and hasty production launch rather than about a test.

[GlennM]

Teddy's expeditionary companions may validate your hujch soon. I am doubtful. But interested.

[Senior Maldonado]

I am doubtful as well. As the search team was allowed at the slope in 1959, there was no concern they would find anything. Which means cleanup excercise had been done already. Also, I see no point to look for rocket's debris on Otorten. The hikers would not have left the tent, if the rocket had fallen on Otorten -- it's too far away. The good spot to search is at the other side of the ridge -- go up from the tent's site and go a little bit down on the other side.

[GlennM]

 An investigation of the site where" lights in the sky come down to earth"should leave evidence in the form of trails, cuts, imprints and missed debris. These though may be entirely lost to time.Naturally, this is not what modern day researchers are hoping for. I honestly do not believe it happened at all. You are right to suggest a search in other places than the well travelled gravel from tent to cedar.  I'd search Google Earth for some evidence before I stomped the ground. My intuition tells me that artifacts lost to time still exist in written form in an archive.

[sarapuk]

The DP9 chose a rare place to do a long hike and would certainly deserve the Grade 3 rating. Too bad about the weather.

Going there on Google Earth or maps is not the same as going there for real. But I often travel to remote places on the internet as I'm sure many of us do. The best part is when you can get down on the ground and travel along the roads or tracks in many cases. Alas, not in the Dyatlov Pass area, though. Maybe one day, though. Until then, it's the hard slog or watching what others post on the internet.

[sarapuk]

I am doubtful as well. As the search team was allowed at the slope in 1959, there was no concern they would find anything. Which means cleanup excercise had been done already. Also, I see no point to look for rocket's debris on Otorten. The hikers would not have left the tent, if the rocket had fallen on Otorten -- it's too far away. The good spot to search is at the other side of the ridge -- go up from the tent's site and go a little bit down on the other side.

Clean up exercise. And what exactly was supposed to have been cleaned? The tent was not cleaned, or all the stuff found inside it. The bodies were not, or the clothing was not cleaned either.

[sarapuk]

An investigation of the site where" lights in the sky come down to earth"should leave evidence in the form of trails, cuts, imprints and missed debris. These though may be entirely lost to time.Naturally, this is not what modern day researchers are hoping for. I honestly do not believe it happened at all. You are right to suggest a search in other places than the well travelled gravel from tent to cedar.  I'd search Google Earth for some evidence before I stomped the ground. My intuition tells me that artifacts lost to time still exist in written form in an archive.

Wasn't there a mention of a circular patch not far from the tent site !?

[GlennM]

Sarapuk  read me in on the circular patch, OK?

[Senior Maldonado]

Clean up exercise. And what exactly was supposed to have been cleaned? The tent was not cleaned, or all the stuff found inside it. The bodies were not, or the clothing was not cleaned either.

The death of the hikers is in focus for us, but those who launched the rocket did not care much about a few civilians who got affected by the rocket crash. That was just an unfortunate overhead, while the focus was on the rocket and its landing spot.

Nobody intended to clean up the tent's site or to look for possible casualties. The military search team executed the order of the Minister of Defense of the USSR dated August 2, 1957 (currently declassified) titled "Strengthening the Security Regime and Protection of Secrecy in Missile Facilities and Military Units". In this order there is part 2, paragraph 5, which states the following: "During tests and training exercises, immediate measures should be taken to identify the locations of missile and rocket weapon debris, collect it in a timely manner, and ensure its safekeeping and transportation to designated storage areas."

[Ziljoe]

The military search team executed the order of the Minister of Defense of the USSR dated August 2, 1957 (currently declassified) titled "Strengthening the Security Regime and Protection of Secrecy in Missile Facilities and Military Units". In this order there is part 2, paragraph 5, which states the following: "During tests and training exercises, immediate measures should be taken to identify the locations of missile and rocket weapon debris, collect it in a timely manner, and ensure its safekeeping and transportation to designated storage areas."

Is this a real document or a bad translation?

[Senior Maldonado]

Is this a real document or a bad translation?

You are always welcome to do your own translation.    Here is the link:
https://rvsn.info/library/docs/doc_1_0172.html?ysclid=mpzhgmx3v4633266899

[GlennM]

Sniping aside, I would think that rocket debris, soldiers and everything soldiers bring would be more than obvious to rescue/ recovery teams for the DP9. Further, if rocket detonation and its detritus were to affect the DP9, It would be immediately noticeable. Then again, because the military actually was involved in the rescue/recovery, I am not aware of anything in the case files where the military is telling anyone that any location was out of bounds.

Yes, men in power have done atrocities in the name of the greater good. Yes, human collateral damage is a real thing. It in both cases, the evidence and its links are easily figured out. Not in this case, not in this way.

Conspiracy theories sell magazines, books and movie scripts. Nature is far more mundane.

[Senior Maldonado]

Conspiracy theories sell magazines, books and movie scripts. Nature is far more mundane.

As soon as Dr. Vozrozhdenniy started talking about blast shock wave, the Nature moved to the background, and Ivanov was obliged to continue investigation to persue that new development. However, he immediately finished the case. Coincidence? Do not think so!

[GlennM]

Puts me in mind of geologists doing seismic testing. This is one of the biggest holes ( no oun intended) in the whole DPI. Where is any testimony from geologists who were supposedly prospecting for rare earths in the area?
You will recall the idea that blasting precipitated the fall of a pine which crushed the tent in the forest. Later on those fearful geologists moved the tent to 1079.

To this day  there are researchers who believe this and look for supporting evidence in artifacts. This is because testimony is wholly lacking.

[Ziljoe]

Is this a real document or a bad translation?

You are always welcome to do your own translation.    Here is the link:
https://rvsn.info/library/docs/doc_1_0172.html?ysclid=mpzhgmx3v4633266899

Thank you. It was the context of "timely manner" that seemed odd but having read the order, it's just for crew at the launch sites and impact zone's. Standard practice. Unfortunately there is no launch site near Dyatlov pass.

[Ziljoe]

As soon as Dr. Vozrozhdenniy started talking about blast shock wave, the Nature moved to the background, and Ivanov was obliged to continue investigation to persue that new development. However, he immediately finished the case. Coincidence? Do not think so!

He did not say it was a blast shock wave , there's zero evidence of any blast shock and the autopsies don't evidence it. The case was closed because there was no crime found. They wouldn't even keep the case file where they did, if it was a cover up.

[Senior Maldonado]

there's zero evidence of any blast shock and the autopsies don't evidence it

True. On the contrary, there is a lot of evidence of thick snow on the spot. Thus we come to the theory of a snow cave in the ravine and its collapse.

At the same time we have Ivanov's very direct statement in the newspaper article:
"The true causes of the deaths were hidden from the people, and only a few knew these reasons: the former first secretary of the regional committee A.P. Kirilenko, the second secretary of the regional committee A.F. Eshtokin, the regional prosecutor N. I. Klimov and the author of these lines, who were investigating the case".

Trying to match this statement with the Snow Cave theory we may conclude that Kirilenko, Eshtokin, Klinov, and Ivanov knew about the snow cave in the ravine, while Maslennikov, Tempalov, Askinadzi and all other people did not. Though Kirilenko, Eshtokin, Klinov had never seen the ravine... For me it sounds absurd. As for Ivanov, knowing about the snow cave, he was expected to start studying special literature on snow traumas, but he preferred to hunt fireballs and order radiactivity tests.

However, if we admit rocket collapse nearby and further blast of its fuel evaporation, that was class of events regional leaders would have been informed by federal authorities. The logic is back - those, who were entitled to know federal secrets, knew the truth.

[sarapuk]

Sarapuk  read me in on the circular patch, OK?

It is mentioned somewhere in the massive collection of notes and such like.

[sarapuk]

Clean up exercise. And what exactly was supposed to have been cleaned? The tent was not cleaned, or all the stuff found inside it. The bodies were not, or the clothing was not cleaned either.

The death of the hikers is in focus for us, but those who launched the rocket did not care much about a few civilians who got affected by the rocket crash. That was just an unfortunate overhead, while the focus was on the rocket and its landing spot.

Nobody intended to clean up the tent's site or to look for possible casualties.

So you are saying that a mess was in the area because of the rocket debris that was responsible for the demise of the group, yet the bodies of the group were not cleaned up to wipe away traces of the debris that caused their deaths.

[Senior Maldonado]

So you are saying that a mess was in the area because of the rocket debris that was responsible for the demise of the group, yet the bodies of the group were not cleaned up to wipe away traces of the debris that caused their deaths.

'Mess' is not a correct word to describe the state of the slope after DPI. The 3rd rocket's stage was laying at some distance from the tent, and it was taken back to the factory by military search team, who executed Minister of Defense order to find and return rockets' parts back after tests. The team obviously saw the empty tent, maybe even walked around it. But we should remember that the group moved to the forest which was 1.5km away. It was snowing, the bodies had been already covered by snow. I guess that the search team had not discovered the footprints of the group, as the prints started 50-70 m below the tent. The search team did not have order to look for possible casualties as ones were not expected. They also had no idea which direction the hikers might depart.  The search team returned to the base and informed their commanders about the tent. The commanders in turn informed Moscow, special Prosecutor's office investigation team was set up, and interrogations started to understand what had happened. Mr. Popov was one of the first to be interrogated.

[GlennM]

What I am reading is q suggestion that a multi stage rocket was launched over land, inhabited in olaces. A recovery team blazes a wilderness trail to retrieve the bent metal. They become aware of the tent but ignore it. They may or may not see corpses a mile distant but do nothing. Later somebody other than the family sounds the alarm, yet does not provide physical help in the initial search.If the military see a backpacking tent on a backpacking trail nowhere near the job site, who would remember, let alone care about it?

 Missing tracks concern me. How many helicopters are needed to move a rocket?

Imagine Blinov's group claiming they saw a rocket. Rockets are hard to camouflage in flight. Big deal.

There are too many assumptions not supported in case files to make this theory work. Otherwise, it would make a good book.

[Senior Maldonado]

Missing tracks concern me. How many helicopters are needed to move a rocket?

We have recollections of Mikhail Sharavin that the Search team has found strange and quite big circle of wiped snow on the other side of the ringe. It is not reflected in the case files, so I fully understand that for you the circle had never existed. I do not restrict myself with the case files, thus I am ready to accept the circle.

Mi-4 was able to take 1600kg, so it seems one chopper was enough to drag the 3rd stage. 3rd stages are mini-rockets , 4-5 meters long. With empty tanks it is just a metallic tube with a compact engine. One chopper might carry it, I believe.

[SURI]

Missing tracks concern me. How many helicopters are needed to move a rocket?

Mi-4 was able to take 1600kg, so it seems one chopper was enough to drag the 3rd stage. 3rd stages are mini-rockets , 4-5 meters long. With empty tanks it is just a metallic tube with a compact engine. One chopper might carry it, I believe.

I am surprised that those rockets are still consuming your mind after Ivanov's statement. He didn't have them in mind. He was pursuing a different lead.