The Anatomy of a Collapse: Resolving the Dyatlov Pass Ravine injuries

[GlennM]

What comes to mind is one of those gun or sword shows making the rounds on TV where a human torso made of an artificial skeleton and ballistic gel and a bag of red punch gets put to some sort of gruesome test.

I believe you can see where I am going with this. I am surprised that nobody with an interest and resources has not performed an actual snow crush test. 

In lieu of an actual test, perhaps an AI model could be made. The advantage there is the male and female body densities as well as the densities and fall of compacted snow could all be analysed. From those experimental results we could go back to the DPI and compare findings. It would be a graph makers dream come true.

[Ziljoe]

Glennm. I was thinking of getting a sheep or animal to test the breaking of the ribs myself but it might be a bit logistically difficult, plus the police might ask what the hell I'm doing. It would be a good one for the "myth busters" . It should be reasonable easy for someone to simulate who has the resources. I have indulged with some of these video's on u tube.

I found two reports of similar incidents.

1. The Mountaineers Training Cave Collapse (Washington, USA)The Case: An alpine safety log detailing a structural failure during an overnight wilderness training field trip.

The Source: The Mountaineers: Structural Engineering Failure! Safety Report

The Incident: Students excavated a large snow cave (10 ft by 7 ft) in heavy, dense snow conditions. Due to temperature fluctuations near freezing, the structural ceiling lost its stability and suffered a sudden, catastrophic engineering failure. The ceiling dropped as a single, consolidated block of dense snow directly onto the students inside, burying them completely.The Injury Profile: One student suffered severe internal thoracic trauma. A medical examination revealed that the heavy weight had caused a flail-type chest injury with torn and severely strained costal cartilage directly connecting the ribs to the sternum.

The Forensic Takeaway: The heavy snow acted like a hydraulic press. Because the massive weight was perfectly distributed across the surface area of the torso, it inflicted severe internal skeletal and cartilage trauma without causing localized impact bruises or breaking the skin. This mirrors the internal trauma found during the autopsies of Dubinina and Zolotaryov.

The Rescue Window: It took nearby teammates exactly 1 to 2 minutes of frantic, panic-driven shovel work to uncover the victims' faces so they could breathe.

2. The Arctic Survival Challenge Cave-In (Arctic Wilderness)

The Case: A documented survival incident involving a massive snow hole collapse during an extreme wilderness challenge.

The Source: Times of Malta: Buried under the snow for three terrifying minutesThe Incident: Miriam Gauci (47) was inside a large snow den designed to shelter 20 people when she heard a "horrible thundering noise." The ice structure sheared off, instantaneously burying her under one metre of compact, sintered snow.

The Rescue Window: Even with an organized survival team standing right outside the shelter, it took exactly 3 minutes to conduct a headcount, realize she was missing, locate her position, and dig her out. Because she was buried in heavy, packed snow, the team couldn't risk swinging sharp spades near her head, severely delaying the excavation.

The Forensic Takeaway: This case highlights the brutal reality of the asphyxiation window. If a person is pinned under heavy, compact snow, they are completely immobilized and face asphyxiation or fatal chest compression within minutes. In the pitch-black darkness of the Siberian night, under 2 to 4 metres of dense snow in a ravine, a 3-minute survival window means certain death before the remaining Dyatlov hikers could physically locate and excavate them.

Times of Malta

Buried under the snow for three terrifying minutes
A mother on a survival challenge in the Arctic wilderness had a lucky escape last week when a snow-hole she was digging suddenly caved in, leaving her trapped under one metre of compact snow. Miriam Gauci, 47, was tunnelling inside the snow hole with...



A mother on a survival challenge in the Arctic wilderness had a lucky escape last week when a snow-hole she was digging suddenly caved in, leaving her trapped under one metre of compact snow.


Miriam Gauci, 47, was tunnelling inside the snow hole with an ice axe to carefully carve a domed ceiling, when it gave way.

Ms Gauci said she could still hear the horrible noise the ice structure, which was to fit 20 people for the night, made when it came crashing down on her.

“There was this horrible loud noise, and suddenly I was in a lot of pain. I was trapped under one metre of heavy, compact snow. I couldn’t move,” she told The Sunday Times.

Her saving grace came in the way she fell: “There was an air pocket by the side of my face. At least I could breathe… and scream. I screamed my head off, really.”

Outside, no one heard her cries, but after a snap headcount, fellow participants realised Ms Gauci was trapped and began a frantic search for her, some even shovelling the snow with their bare hands.

Winston Pirotta, 37, another challenge participant, had got out of the snow-hole a minute earlier: “I had just finished my carving shift and was making my way towards the fire to warm up, when I heard a thundering noise and cries of ‘Collapse! Collapse!’ we all rushed, in shock, on site.

Even now, when, I recall the accident I still get a cold sweat.”

David Schembri, 24, part of the expedition team, was at the other entrance of the snow hole when the accident happened: “I think for the first 15 seconds we were shocked to the roots. Those seconds felt like an hour – but then we quickly gathered our wits and took on rescue roles.”

Apart from Ms Gauci, there were two other people in the snow hole: Maria Vella Galea was literally blasted out of the tunnel and on impact hurt her face.

Martin Farrugia was closer to the entrance and only his legs were trapped.

Although they roughly knew Ms Gauci’s location, the rescuers couldn’t use spades for fear of hurting her. In total, she was trapped under the snow for about three minutes.


“They lasted an eternity, but I was convinced I would get out of there,” she said.

The minute they got her out, she was whisked away in a stretcher to the expedition cabin, and placed in front of a fire to warm up, preventing the onset of hypothermia.

She was seen by a paramedic and two doctors on the team and then a taxi ambulance took her to hospital, an hour away.

Ms Gauci got away with bruised and fractured ribs, and got the all-clear to return to the expedition: “My time was not yet up, I guess. My guardian angel was really by my side.”

The reason for the collapse is still unclear, for only a few hours earlier, 20 of them had been jumping up and down on the snow structure to make it more compact.

[sarapuk]

No mention of the mutilations of the 2 bodies in the ravine. Extraordinary injuries, if injury is the correct word to use. And it's highly unlikely that there would have been enough snow at the ravine site to cause certain injuries.

Sarapuk , there is no evidence for mutilations in the autopsy. The ravine four were in that stream bed for 3 months , think about running water over dead flesh .

I want you to think long and hard about the amount of snow in the ravine . It was up to 4 meters in depth, a cubic meter of snow can weigh anything from 50kg to 800kg . Settled snow can weigh from 200-400 kg per cubic meter. The snow in the ravine will have gone through a number of cycles of thawing and freezing, compacting and settling. It will be dence and if for whatever reason , the snow was to give way , we have a substantial mass and energy that could cause the injuries. We have data and examples of these types of injuries sustained in snow collapses.

I'm working from a model with information that we have, look at the photos of the ravine . If you can't put evidence forward , for or against  , please don't throw in random comments of large footprints or UFO's. It's getting tedious for me to be honest. I've read many books on UFOs over 40 years and there's been no evidence other than people saying there is evidence. There's a recent book been launched by some UK judge or lawyer this week. Go and research that and stick it in you thread you started about ufos,. I'm sure it will be interesting for those that come here for that information, they deserve your input.

Investigators should keep an open mind and not dismiss anything. Open for the unexpected and revelations. I've gone into some detail early on in this Forum on certain injuries to Lyudmila. And snow doesn't figure in my findings. But animal type mutilations do, the sort of mutilations that are happening around the World. 
 

[sarapuk]

What comes to mind is one of those gun or sword shows making the rounds on TV where a human torso made of an artificial skeleton and ballistic gel and a bag of red punch gets put to some sort of gruesome test.

I believe you can see where I am going with this. I am surprised that nobody with an interest and resources has not performed an actual snow crush test. 

In lieu of an actual test, perhaps an AI model could be made. The advantage there is the male and female body densities as well as the densities and fall of compacted snow could all be analysed. From those experimental results we could go back to the DPI and compare findings. It would be a graph makers dream come true.

I think you would find that such a test would fail to prove that snow was responsible.

[Ziljoe]

I think you would find that such a test would fail to prove that snow was responsible.

That's the point of a test.....

[Ziljoe]

Investigators should keep an open mind and not dismiss anything. Open for the unexpected and revelations. I've gone into some detail early on in this Forum on certain injuries to Lyudmila. And snow doesn't figure in my findings. But animal type mutilations do, the sort of mutilations that are happening around the World.

Sarapuk , it's a proof of concept. No one's dismissing anything. Of course one should keep an open mind , but part of keeping an open mind is the bit where we must consider the incident might be quite mundane.

We must consider that their are no animal mutilations that are happening around the world. You are repeating every UFO story from around the world , "there's evidence, because , Bob that works for the CIA , said Steve from the FBI said there's evidence ".

I'm not interested in your findings as I don't even know what they are , you have supplied no evidence and saying you have gone into some detail early on ,is not evidence of anything.

The point of this thread is to evidence, explore or conclude that a drop of snow falling from height X, can or cannot fracture ribs and fracture a skull.

From this we can work from the alleged autopsies
And work from process of elimination. It's a win win. If it can't happen you get to keep your UFO and we move on.

[Osi]

Yes, it is plausible to view the collapse of the snow roof as the most logical cause of the trauma sustained by Lyudmila and Zolotaryov. However, the differences in the injuries among the four individuals within that 2-square-meter area do not, in my view, rule out the possibility that the incident occurred outside. Considering the nature of Lyudmila and Semyon's injuries—and the fact that Thibeaux and Alexander suffered head and neck trauma while showing no signs of chest trauma—the situation raises questions. If I am to lean toward the theory Ziljoe advocates—that a snow roof collapse caused these injuries—I need to convince myself of how that could have happened. This snow cave was situated just above the ravine bed on a slope with a 10-degree incline. Lyudmila and Semyon were resting at the lowest point of the slope, followed by Thibeaux, and then Alexander near the cave entrance. The roof collapsed in the direction of the slope, inflicting the most severe damage on Lyudmila and Semyon. Based on the principles of mass and gravity, I am visualizing the sequence of events; Alexander must have been subjected to very little of the collapse's force.

[GlennM]

Osi, I for one appreciate your thoughtful reply to Ziljoes post. It seems to be the fashion lately in the forum for anyone who posts an idea to suffer the slings and arrows  of speculative critics who, like school aged kids are more adept at being critical than the opposite.

I have suggested that if the situation in the ravine could be modeled in the material world, or simulated in the digital domain. We could collectively rule in or out the most probable or unlikely explanations.

Although there were discrepancies as to where the ravine actually was, I believe the matter is settled. It would be excellent if any of the expeditions actually mapped the dimensions.

[amashilu]

For those who lean towards a snow collapse at the ravine, I am curious how do you understand Lyuda's physical position? She is on her knees, with her arms up. I would think a strong snow collapse would, at the very least, knock her off her knees and bring her arms down, before compressing and crushing her ribs. I can't reconcile her death position with a snow collapse.

[Ziljoe]

A fair observation amashilu. It is one that I have pondered under every theory . Every theory struggles to put forward an explanation as to her body position. It's the same problem if it was murder , a blast wave ,  staging , a yeti , UFO's etc.

Although all the above can be argued that they were placed there, then the same argument can be said that she was dug out from a snow collapse . I agree with you that I can't quite see her being entombed in that position from a vertical collapse . So I'm not ignoring that .

I am aware that the reports of her lower leg being covered in a sleeve of a jumper as a makeshift sock or shoe ties in with the other half of that jumper being found at the cedar or on the path to the den flooring . That in its self suggests there had been time to do that action without interruption from fighting or fleeing something . It is an act of repurposing a resource in a situation where it gives a potential for combating the threat of the cold ,as is the fire , the den flooring and it's ideal location for the for a snow cave.

If we look at what we don't see at the cedar and the den , we see no weapons are made, sticks are not used as makeshift  spears , they are used as flooring, the fire is not used to carry torches or fire sticks to keep beasts or monsters away .

Every action we see at the ravine and cedar alludes to a proactive combined effort to fight the environment and combat heat loss. It does not suggest internal conflict and the time it would take to do all these actions implies they were not being stopped or restricted from doing them.

To stop , remove a jumper , cut or rip it in half , proceed to don it and secure to the limb means they had time without threat. It is a detail that I would say is  beyond the imagination of any staging or outsiders.

This brings me back to the details of the autopsy, if they were faked in some way , there still seems to be an element of detail in the reports that ties in with what we would expect to see in a compression injury.

That raises a question , if they are fake, why draft a autopsy report that basically fits perfectly with a snow collapse. I doubt that someone would mange to fake that detail as the knowledge to link a compression injury might not have been available in 1959.

It is the foam , internal bleeding , and the ruptured  ventricle that imply the struggle to breathe whilst alive . If we remove the skull fracture and broken ribs for the minute and compare the ravine 4 autopsies with the other 5 autopsies . 3 of the ravine 4 have the restricted breathing , it means as they died , there was a load on them stopping them from breathing . They died in a different way to the other hypothermic hikers.

So , let's add the other findings , broken ribs , burst artery ( the weak part from pressure) , fractured skull, no bruising to the area of the chest . Then let's look at the location, ground level , stoney ground , under 3 meters of snow.

We also know that the ravine and the other ravines gather snow and cornices form and fill with snow.

So let's flip other possibilities of the snow level in the ravine on the night of the 1st of February 59. Is it possible that the ravine only had 30 cm of snow in it after at least 2-3 months of winter snow before February the 1st ?.

[Osi]

Yes, this is possible—in fact, there was even more fresh snow: large-flaked snow that fell on February 1st and 2nd. The group members waited for the snowfall to cease, but when it did not, they set out from the cache, albeit late. They realized they would be unable to move through the forest in the fresh snow. I can list the most compelling reasons for this view as follows: the tracks between the cache and the tent had completely vanished; they departed the cache late (despite the short distance between the cache and the tent); and the period immediately following fresh snowfall is the prime time for avalanches and slab slides to occur.

[amashilu]

Even if someone believes that nearly every detail fits with a snow collapse at the ravine, if one detail is as impossible as Lyuda being crushed and killed by heavy snow without falling off her knees or bringing her arms down, then the scenario cannot work. We must find a different scenario, maybe including a snow collapse, but Lyuda isn't affected by it? How might that happen? It has been noted that several of the bodies, for example Igor, Yuri K, Yuri D, and Lyuda, show signs of having been moved after death. So now there is a snow collapse, but Lyuda was somewhere else when she died and someone moved her. We should try to explain that and see where we get.

[Ziljoe]

I think we’re all circling around the same core issue from different angles, so let me try to frame this in a way that respects everyone’s position.

Osi’s point about fresh snowfall is fair, and I agree that Feb 1–2 brought new instability to the slope. But fresh snow doesn’t erase the baseline accumulation that had already built up through December and January. Dyatlov’s own diary mentions 1.5 metres of snow in the forest the day before — and that’s in sheltered terrain. Ravines are catchment zones. They collect drift and snow transported from the hilltops, and this is what builds the drifts and mini‑cornices. The ravine fills over the whole winter, and I would argue it was deeper than the 30 cm reported depth of the den flooring.

Even if the Feb 1–2 snowfall was heavy, it was adding to what was already there.

And we have a physical clue that’s hard to ignore: 
If the snow was deeper than 30 cm, the den flooring had to be carved sideways, not downward. It had to be scooped from a snow bank or drift. With no shovels, branches and hands can only scoop horizontally. That means the snow depth at the ravine was already high enough to carve into, not shallow enough to sit on bare ground. There would be little advantage in sitting in an empty ravine to retain heat. Whatever the exact number, the scene implies the snow was deep enough to support a collapse mechanism.

On Lyuda’s posture — I agree it’s unusual, and every theory struggles with it. But her final position is not automatically the position she died in. Snow settling, melt, partial excavation, and the fact she was dug out all affect posture. So I don’t think her pose alone can veto the entire scenario, especially when the injury pattern (foam, hemothorax, ventricle rupture, bilateral rib fractures without external bruising) is so strongly aligned with compression.

If we want to explore alternatives, I’m happy to — but I am trying to anchor them in the physical reality of the terrain. The ravine was unlikely to be an empty trench on Feb 1. It was a natural snow‑catchment that had been accumulating for months, and the den flooring suggests the hikers were working into that snow, not on top of a thin layer.

[Osi]

Ziljoe, I agree with you. From my perspective, the situation on the ground was undeniable: due to the precipitation in December and January, snowdrifts had formed around Kholat that grew deeper as one descended from the summit. While the depth of the wind-blown snow—before it hardened—was around one meter at higher elevations, drifts reaching nearly three to four meters had accumulated just a mile down the slope. Due to the density of the cedar trees, while there might be only 30 cm of snow in one spot, snow mounds of three to four meters could form in the brushy creek bed just 50 meters below. On Kholat, there was a one-meter layer of snow that had fallen months earlier and, through erosion and compaction, had turned into a sheet of ice. It would have been impossible for them to dig through this hard snow to level the ground for their tent. Instead, they cleared a space by cutting into the 50 or 60 cm of fresh snow that had fallen during calm weather around February 1st. They likely paused there, lulled into a false sense of security by the mild conditions; no one would have wanted to camp on that windy peak. It was snowing, yet the air was perfectly still. It was the melting snow of May that separated Lyuda from the other three and swept her further down the slope.

[amashilu]

from ziljoe
On Lyuda’s posture — I agree it’s unusual, and every theory struggles with it. But her final position is not automatically the position she died in.

Explain.

Do you mean something like, after she died, someone came along and put her on the rock ledge, bending her knees and moving her arms and hands?

[Ziljoe]

No, I’m not suggesting anyone arranged her body. I’m saying her final position isn’t automatically the position she died in, although there are physical explanations for how it could have changed. 

Snowpack mechanics can shift limbs after death: settling, melt‑movement, partial burial, and the excavation process all alter arm, leg, and torso orientation. It’s also possible the surviving hikers at the ravine tried to dig her out before they succumbed, or realised it was futile to reach the others. Any of that would disturb limb position without any intention to “pose” her. 

Between deep unstable snow, later melt, and the digging required to reach her, those processes could easily cause changes. For example, I doubt the rock she is leaning on was bare at the time — there may have been snow beneath her that later thawed and was carried away by meltwater, leaving her in a different final posture than the one she died in.

[GlennM]

Amashilu, thag is exactly what I think. She was in respiratory distress and she was helped up on the ledge and made comfortable. My guess is the water was not flowing nore than a trickle, if that. In my imagining IRZ propped her up before they left for the tent.

[Ziljoe]

Even if someone believes that nearly every detail fits with a snow collapse at the ravine, if one detail is as impossible as Lyuda being crushed and killed by heavy snow without falling off her knees or bringing her arms down, then the scenario cannot work. We must find a different scenario, maybe including a snow collapse, but Lyuda isn't affected by it? How might that happen? It has been noted that several of the bodies, for example Igor, Yuri K, Yuri D, and Lyuda, show signs of having been moved after death. So now there is a snow collapse, but Lyuda was somewhere else when she died and someone moved her. We should try to explain that and see where we get.

Lynda is in the ravine and suffers from the same crush injuries that the autopsy implies , I would not say we have to say the scenario can not work because of the way she is lying . It may just not be obvious. The scenario is still plausible.

It is assumed by some that the bodies were moved because of the blood pooling not reflecting the lay of the bodies. However , all is not straight forward in the chemical process of how the blood pooling occurs.

When the Dyatlov hikers died, the temperatures were far below freezing. Their bodies probably froze before rigor mortis and livor mortis (blood pooling) could fully develop. Freezing interrupts both processes — it stops the chemical rigor cascade and prevents normal blood settling.

Weeks later, when the bodies were recovered, they were still frozen. To perform an autopsy and remove clothing, the mortuary staff had to thaw the bodies to some degree.  You cannot autopsy a rock‑hard frozen corpse.

What likely occurred is thawing allowed delayed rigor mortis to activate and allowed some blood to become fluid again, producing partial, patchy, inconsistent hypostasis. This is exactly what forensic pathology expects in previously frozen bodies: lividity becomes faint, unreliable, and easily misinterpreted.

The autopsy doctors did not report any contradiction between lividity and posture. They saw normal cold‑weather hypostasis. The “blood pooling problem”

 In normal conditions, livor mortis begins first and rigor mortis begins later. But in Dyatlov, both processes were interrupted by freezing. The bodies froze before lividity or rigor could develop. When thawed for autopsy, the blood became liquid again and pooled according to the table position, and rigor mortis finally activated and resolved.

[amashilu]

Amashilu, thag is exactly what I think. She was in respiratory distress and she was helped up on the ledge and made comfortable. My guess is the water was not flowing nore than a trickle, if that. In my imagining IRZ propped her up before they left for the tent.

Do you support the snow collapse theory then? I am trying to put all these pieces together. Let's say you are right, the other hikers found Lyuda in the ravine in respiratory distress (from what cause?) and they repositioned her. She died only 10+/- minutes later in this position. The autopsy shows that she died from one of the broken ribs piercing her heart. Then later, the snow collapse happened, compressing and crushing her ribs? But she was already dead, right? and her ribs were already broken.

[amashilu]

Lynda is in the ravine and suffers from the same crush injuries that the autopsy implies , I would not say we have to say the scenario can not work because of the way she is lying . It may just not be obvious. The scenario is still plausible.

It is assumed by some that the bodies were moved because of the blood pooling not reflecting the lay of the bodies. However , all is not straight forward in the chemical process of how the blood pooling occurs.

When the Dyatlov hikers died, the temperatures were far below freezing. Their bodies probably froze before rigor mortis and livor mortis (blood pooling) could fully develop. Freezing interrupts both processes — it stops the chemical rigor cascade and prevents normal blood settling.

Weeks later, when the bodies were recovered, they were still frozen. To perform an autopsy and remove clothing, the mortuary staff had to thaw the bodies to some degree.  You cannot autopsy a rock‑hard frozen corpse.

What likely occurred is thawing allowed delayed rigor mortis to activate and allowed some blood to become fluid again, producing partial, patchy, inconsistent hypostasis. This is exactly what forensic pathology expects in previously frozen bodies: lividity becomes faint, unreliable, and easily misinterpreted.

The autopsy doctors did not report any contradiction between lividity and posture. They saw normal cold‑weather hypostasis. The “blood pooling problem”

 In normal conditions, livor mortis begins first and rigor mortis begins later. But in Dyatlov, both processes were interrupted by freezing. The bodies froze before lividity or rigor could develop. When thawed for autopsy, the blood became liquid again and pooled according to the table position, and rigor mortis finally activated and resolved.

Yes, but I'm not addressing the livor mortis question here. I'm talking about her position.

I think there are many things about Lyuda that suggest she is the key to the answer of this mystery.

[GlennM]

I have previously thought Lyuda may have slid down or been helped up to her final pose. Her position suggests that she was exhausted. Was it more comfortable to lie like this, head up as opposed to laying on the branch mat and stretching out?  I think sleep either way is a death sentence, so kneeling would be preferable to lying. No doubt  her previous  exertions starting with the march to the Feb 1 camp, making camp, retreating from it and all the activity in the woods were exhausting. The effort and crippling cold sapped her strength. I can not rule out shock if she witnessed the demise of the Yuris.

A snow cave collapse explains much, simply and efficiently.  Alternately, if what happened to the Yuris also affected Lyuda at the same time and place could it be that she was injured at the cedar and moved to the ravine?  In this case, she was sheltered from wind, elevated, made comfortable and nursed until she expired.  Unlike the guys, she was not undressed, but perhaps packed in snow right and left in order to preserve her dignity. Later the weather covered her over. On the other hand if she was caught in a cornice collapse, she would be buried. Salvaging her garments  may not have been possible.

I think about an imaginary hiker being found iburied jn snow. If an investigation tries to uncover the cause of death based on the final pose and the fact that others dug down to find him, it completely ignores the the dynamics of the avalanche that put him there if those traces were smoothed out over time. The cause of death may be more readily determined than the circumstance of death.

It would seem that Lyura was crushed, in place, at the mouth of a tunnel leading to a branch mat in a deep ravine. She could have been moved.

[Ziljoe]

Yes, but I'm not addressing the livor mortis question here. I'm talking about her position.

I think there are many things about Lyuda that suggest she is the key to the answer of this mystery.

The back‑pressure model isn’t speculation — it’s exactly what blunt chest compression does. The autopsy shows internal cardiac hemorrhage, not a penetrating injury. If a rib had pierced the heart, the report would describe a perforation or rupture of the myocardium, but it doesn’t. The foam deep in the lungs proves she was alive under sustained compression, which is consistent with hydraulic back‑pressure and capillary rupture, not instant death from a stab‑type injury. It leans towards traumatic asphyxiation. It's why I'm pointing at the autopsies, the mass of snow and the hard ground surface. The autopsies match the post injury environment.

It's difficult for me to understand the medical terminology but the autopsies don't imply anything else outside of what we find in the ravine. ?