Krivonischenko's burns

[amashilu]

Many times I have read people's speculation -- sometimes they go right past speculation and just assume -- that Krivonischenko's leg burns came from him putting his leg in the fire to try to warm up, in a state of freeze and mental disorientation.

Of course, he was found lying near this small fire and that is probably why people automatically connect it to his burned leg.

I went back to his autopsy report and noted this:

There is a burn across the entire surface of the left anticnemion with a size of 31 x 10 cm ...... the lower third of the left shin is of a brown-black color with charred tissue and and bursting skin, then in the middle third and upper third the burn surface is bright red and light brown.

Anticnemion definition: The anatomical term for the shin or the anterior (front) part of the leg between the knee and the ankle.
• Origin: Derived from Greek, where anti- means "in front of" and knēmē means "shin" or "leg."
• Medical context: It often refers specifically to the region covering the front border of the tibia (shinbone).

This means that it was the front of Krivo's leg, the shin, that was burned, not the back, as would be expected if he had laid his leg in the fire. The 31-cm-long (that is over 12 inches) by 10-cm-wide (4 inches) burn was the worst in the lower third (3rd degree, charred and bursting) and from then up to the knee, it was 2nd and/or 1st degree.

I'm trying to imagine how he would put his shin in the fire, and not the back of the leg. No burns on the back of the leg were noted at autopsy.

The other leg was not burned.

The fire was quite small and burned itself out within 90 minutes, not for lack of fuel, which was lying nearby, but from not being tended to. It doesn't make sense that Krivonischenko needed the fire so much that he would lay one leg in it, but he wouldn't tend it and keep it going. And how would he lay one leg in it anyway? Lie down on his stomach and move one leg over so his shin was in the fire?

Because I give a lot of credit to these hikers' intelligence, skill, and experience, and because Krivonischenko's burn was on the shin of his leg, not the back side, I don't see a way forward for the belief that he laid his leg in the fire.

So what else could have happened to burn his shin so badly? What are some other ideas?

In a YouTube interview, Eduard Tumanov suggests that Krivonischenko was tortured by fire, causing him to bite his finger skin off, but he didn't spit it out or swallow it because right after this, he was hit on the head and died. That one does make me wonder, yeah, why didn't he spit out or swallow the piece of skin?



 (at 5:45)

I also want to talk about the injuries to his hands, but will leave that for another thread.

[GlennM]

Can we rule out his pant leg catching fire? If his ski pants had any synthetic material like nylon, it melts and retains blistering  heat a very long time. I can imagine the hot stove producing such a burn. How he would position himself to get burned is a puzzle.

[amashilu]

Can we rule out his pant leg catching fire? If his ski pants had any synthetic material like nylon, it melts and retains blistering  heat a very long time. I can imagine the hot stove producing such a burn. How he would position himself to get burned is a puzzle.

Yes, it could have happened at the tent or anywhere else. He ended up at the cedar not because the fire is there, but because his body was moved there and positioned next to Doroschenko after death.

[Ziljoe]

I think the reference to sticking a limb into a fire means a number of things, holding it closely to the fire , above or around the flame. The problem is sensation from frozen nerves , he has well established frostbite that comes from being alive during the heat loss.

The shin burn is a positional radiant‑heat injury from being very close to a small fire, consistent with sitting upright or lying back with the shin raised. 
The sliding epidermis on one buttock/thigh is a cold‑pressure‑friction injury, meaning that area alone was exposed to colder conditions — either due to trouser displacement or prolonged contact with frozen ground.

Wetness to his lower clothing may have aided in blistering but it seemed to go past this suggesting no sensation of unconscious.

We can see a resemblance to his body position of his body when found. The sliding epidermis on his left buttock was something I didn't understand but we have his left leg exposed and this all means he was alive for it to happen, his left leg being exposed and the matching frostbite to his buttock seems to match his right side not being exposed.

Interestingly Glenn mentioned the trousers and melting. It could be the very reason to remove the trousers. The burns tell a story of the lower part of  limb being coldest to radiant heat and the higher up part was further away. Think of having a piece of bread toasted at a fire but at an angle , the bread will toast unevenly, burning at the closest part and being less effected on the slope at the top end.

This implies radiant heat burns at an angle, not by hot coals, flame , metal, contact etc.

[amashilu]

Ziljoe writes:
I think the reference to sticking a limb into a fire means a number of things, holding it closely to the fire , above or around the flame.
The shin burn is ... consistent with sitting upright or lying back with the shin raised.

Hmmmmm ... I am trying to imagine someone "holding one shin closely to the fire, above or around a flame," or "sitting upright or lying back with one shin raised over a fire."

I don't know, your imagination must be more acrobatic than mine.

[Ziljoe]

Ziljoe writes:
I think the reference to sticking a limb into a fire means a number of things, holding it closely to the fire , above or around the flame.
The shin burn is ... consistent with sitting upright or lying back with the shin raised.

Hmmmmm ... I am trying to imagine someone "holding one shin closely to the fire, above or around a flame," or "sitting upright or lying back with one shin raised over a fire."

I don't know, your imagination must be more acrobatic than mine.

My bad description amashilu. It's totally my fault and not yours.

When I say shin raised , I mean raised and bent at the knee . Like an A. I shall make you a highly detailed diagram ,O is the head, then the torso then the thigh going up , knee , then the shin going down, then the foot then the fire. The lower part of the shin is closest to the radiant heat and the burns are less higher up because of the angle . It's radiant heat as the medial and lateral are not recorded as burnt. There's no wrapping of burns around the limb.

O___/\_🔥

Interesting that we have maybe got a bit of an order to the removing of the trousers!

[GlennM]

I alternately was imagining him in a crouched squat face above klees facing the fire. Several people could get near the fire in a small circle . Then, if for some reason he lost balance and fell face forward across the fire and had to be pulled free, with one leg into fire pit burned , the other not. If his pant leg caught fire there we have it.

[Ziljoe]

Yes, I've thought of multiple scenarios too. A quick in and out .. now that I've looked in a bit more detail I think it's a long slow burn because of the grading of the burn and the area. Frostbite is established so feeling will be diminished, that kind of works . I have also thought he might be sitting up right , left forearm on knee and hand hanging down. Left buttock on snow or melting snow.

Having looked at the autopsy photos , his actual final position resembles a possibility of him being in that basic pose next to fire.

All food for thought but I don't think it's contact burns.

[amashilu]

Yes, I agree it cannot be a quick in-and-out. Third degree burns take longer.

Tumanov (a forensic medical expert) suggests a vertical position, with the fire coming up from below, since the burn is far worse on the last third of the shin; for example, he is sitting on a branch of the cedar, and somehow a fire is below his left shin.

[amashilu]

The parts in the autopsy about the brain indicate a pretty strong smack to the head:

 ...."in the right temporal region and occipital region there is diffuse hemorrhaging seeping into the right temporal muscle. The dura mater is bluish and full of blood. The pia is muddy and swollen. The gyrus and sulcus are poorly distinguished. The brain matter has a jelly-like appearance and is reddish green in color. The grey matter is poorly distinguished from the white. The contours of the lateral ventricles of the brain are poorly distinguished."

In layman's terms, this means there is widespread bleeding on the right side of the head (near the temple and the back of the head) that has soaked directly into the temple muscle. The tough, outermost protective sack surrounding the brain is stained blue-purple and engorged with trapped blood.  The delicate, innermost membrane directly touching the brain surface looks cloudy ("muddy") and is filled with fluid. The normal, distinct folds (ridges and grooves) on the surface of the brain are flattened, blurry, or swollen together. (I had to use AI for this.)

It really looks like he was beat up and burned, but I don't know how to reconcile this with there being no outsiders  (murderers) present.

[Ramsay]

You could consider that Krivonischenko fell from the Cedar tree and hit his head. He may have been burned when he fell

[GlennM]

He would have climbed and fallen from the cedar with frozen socks and numb feet. He was likely unattended after being made comfortable so others could make shelter. Third degree burns hurt, cooked flesh smells. A concussion put him to sleep, and he likely never felt what happened after that. When checked later on, his remains were handled.

[amashilu]

You could consider that Krivonischenko fell from the Cedar tree and hit his head. He may have been burned when he fell

Yes, we should try to consider all scenarios.
If he fell from the cedar, he would have to land on his stomach with his left shin in the fire, and his head turned quite a bit to the left so that the back right takes the impact.

[GlennM]

Can you flesh out your sequence of events at the cedar which result in Your K's demise? For comparison, I will takenthe point of view he got tired and wet coming down from the tent. He gathered what he could on the ground for gire.He had an idea that he was going to save his friends by getting firewood. His hands and feet failed him. Je was concussed. He fell across the fire pit. After being made comfortable, others could do no more. My idea has lacunae.

[amashilu]

Can you flesh out your sequence of events at the cedar which result in Your K's demise? For comparison, I will takenthe point of view he got tired and wet coming down from the tent. He gathered what he could on the ground for gire.He had an idea that he was going to save his friends by getting firewood. His hands and feet failed him. Je was concussed. He fell across the fire pit. After being made comfortable, others could do no more. My idea has lacunae.

I would like to, GlennM, but I don't have a theory.

Interestingly, Tumanov says that there is insufficient evidence in the autopsy to interpret death as being from hypothermia. He is puzzled why the conclusion signed by the authorities is that Krivonischenko froze to death. He suggests that Krivonischenko died from something else, probably the crack to the right-back side of his head. He would like to see Krivonischenko's body exhumed and re-examined. So would I.

[GlennM]

Thanks for the clarification. Don't we all wish that every stone we turn over actually solves rather than deepens the mystery? I am immediately thinking of the suggestion that some of the victims ( Rustem) had skull fractures as a result of the expansion of the water in brain tissue. It seems that that ought to be so common an occurrence that it would be rubber stamped for everyone, everywhere people died in snow. 

All these people got hurt, but their walking trail tells me that it was after leaving the tent, and not before. Ziljoe had a head scratcher wondering why they covered such a short distance to their last camp. So, I am baffled by the possibility that camp was pitched because someone came up lame. The footprints do not support foot dragging,a three legged carry , a fireman's carry nor any other oddity. A head injury is going to result in a wobbly gate.

For me, the best idea is they got overexposed to cold. Probably wet in a running stream and clumsy and hands and feet gave out.  Broken bones must have come from falls or being crushed under a heavy weight. 

[Ziljoe]

Any injuries, knocks bumps and scrapes are amplified by the cold. The burns on the leg, toes and foot are in line with being next to a fire as we can possibly imagine. Why the shin would even be chosen as a torture zone is bizarre in its own right.

We would expect to see more damage if anyone was beaten I think.

The skull cracking from the freezing fluids is a rare and is usually the base of the inner skull or in some instances along the sutures in animals. It doesn't mean it happens every time and is only a possibility given the unique set up of Rustem . There are a few quirks in his autopsy .

I do find the effort of the 2km hike thought provoking. I can't for the life of me think why they bothered .

[SURI]

Why the shin would even be chosen as a torture zone is bizarre in its own right.

The reason is stated in the video.

[Ramsay]

The community surrounding the Dyatlov Pass incident has developed a sort of "culture of perpetual doubt." When a mystery becomes this famous, many people cling to the idea that it must remain unfathomable or involve some extraordinary element. Any logical explanation—no matter how consistent with physics, forensic science, and topography—inevitably faces resistance simply because it "solves" the problem and puts the mystery to rest.

[GlennM]

The community entertains numerous points of view ranging from a natural event to abominable snowmen to Little Green Men. Of course, each of us has a filter. It does not make us bad people. The incentive is to resolve the why of their decisions, not than the how of their behavior. It may never be settled because unless written down, we can only infer, but never prove thought processes.

If and when a member feels that the matter is resolved, the forum will not dissolve, but the member may be inclined to tilt their lance at the Voynich Manuscript..