Hands and feet

[GlennM]

Much has been made of the footwear. Nothing has been made of hand wear. Tibo had gloves in his coat pocket. Where were all the other gloves? We have no shortage of bruised knuckles and frostbite.  No gloves found anywhere else. What gives?

[Senior Maldonado]

@GlennM

Sheet 19, item 12
Sheet 20, items 30, 39, 40
and you are all set

[Osi]

The tent inventory prepared on March 3rd clearly documents that 13 pairs of gloves were inside the tent. Like the boots, they were likely wet. When the site for the tent was being excavated, the fresh snow had been cleared away. It is logical to assume that Thibault, anticipating his turn on guard duty that night, might have kept a spare, dry pair of gloves in his pocket. The fact that these gloves remained unused suggests that Thibault may have been injured inside the tent, and that no one else noticed the gloves he had in his pocket. Just as Rustem was taking off his boots to join the rest of the group—who were seated in a circle—the tent was illuminated by two flashlights, and bread and meat were being sliced. At that precise moment, a mass of snow fell onto the tent. It crushed the tent and its contents, scattering the debris 20 to 50 meters downslope—much as if a vehicle had run over the tent. While a vehicle could not have been there, only a small portion of the fallen snow mass actually landed on the tent itself. As the group, crushed inside, attempted to flee the tent, the only items they could have carried out with them were the knives they had been using to slice the meat, the two flashlights glowing in the darkness, and the clothing they were wearing at the time.
Regarding the four injured individuals in the valley:


1- They may have been injured while inside the tent, and three of them could potentially have been carried for 1,600 meters.


2- They may have emerged from the tent with only minor injuries—all still capable of walking—but subsequently fallen from a rocky ridge about 800 meters further down. It is possible that, while moving hand-in-hand, three or four of them exerted a chain-reaction force on one another, leading to a severe fall and resulting in them being carried 800 meters.


3- The four individuals, showing signs of advanced hypothermia due to an inability to start a fire, may have taken shelter in a cave, which subsequently experienced a roof collapse.
All three scenarios are based on natural causes, and I have no reason to insist on any one of them over the others.

[bongyi]

The fact that these gloves remained unused suggests that Thibault may have been injured inside the tent, and that no one else noticed the gloves he had in his pocket.

That's a good point! I would clarify to the extent that it indicates that Thibo is injured in the initial phase of the events. The avalanche and the tent are just assumptions.

Cutting dinner is hard for me to imagine. I have to assume that all food is frozen to ice. It's like taking it out of the freezer! It cannot be cut open unless it thaws. But that would require fire!  They can only protect the food intended for dinner from freezing by having to keep it close to their bodies. Let's say it had to be under the jacket! And this assumes that the food was already cut and portioned.

[Osi]

They were carrying large, 2–3 kg, semi-frozen fillets; it would have been possible—though difficult—to cut nine 1 cm-thick portions from them. Ten minutes after being sliced, these pieces would have thawed sufficiently to be ready for consumption. The focus here should not be on the fillets themselves, but rather on the fact that knives were out, ready for use, and that flashlights were accessible and in working order. This suggests that the group had not yet gone to sleep but was preparing to do so; shoes, kitchen supplies, and food were found near the tent’s entrances—on both the right and left sides—while other food items, a stove, and various personal belongings were located on the opposite side of the tent. Only the central area remained clear. Such a disorganized arrangement is hardly ideal for a sleeping setup. It is likely that between 18:00 and 21:00, the group spent their time conversing, eating, and planning for the following day. The flashlights were not being used for personal tasks, such as writing in a diary.

[bongyi]

@Osi

The avalanche is coming early!
According to Puzrin and Gaume:

"Provided a realistic wind deposition flux, our model shows that the conditions for
avalanche release can be met after a delay of 7.5 to 13.5 h from the moment the hikers
made the cut in the slope, in agreement with the forensic evaluation of the time of
death."

from: https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-020-00081-8

Based on this, the avalanche could come at 1 o'clock in the morning at the earliest!

Do we reject their theory?  I do!
Everyone wants to believe in the avalanche based on their theory!

[GlennM]

To think, 13 pair of gloves in the tent and none on hands! The gloves were reported up above here to be wet. Reason enough to keep them off hands, but were they also put away wet? Somehow those gloves, if not already dry must become dry before the next day's push to Ortoten. How does anything get dry in the tent?  If the gloves were dry and wetted by the snow over the cut tent, that's understandable.

This casts things in a different light. Wet gloves can be air dried, which wouldn't happen at that time and frigid place. They could be oven dried, except for no oven. They could be dried by the fire,  except a fire suitable for drying 26 gloves has got to have a bit of size and some staying power. This means that dry hand and footwear is going to take some fuel, namely wood.

It would be criminally negligent for Igor to advance his team unless he could make reasonably sure that there was no frostbite from his negligence.

If the stove actually had wood, I think firing it up in the morning is a terrible idea, especially if the tent was going to get packed up.. It might be a genius idea if the hikers planned to leave it up when they were going to the mailbox on Otorten. Do we know for a certainty that every hiker had to be in a group photo at the cairn on Ortoten?

If it were me with hands under my armpits and staring at the snow covered mess that was the tent, I would want gloves before going anywhere..How hard would it be to grab them before going down hill?

[bongyi]

In the absence of fire, the only way to dry wet things by the heat of their bodies. Modern mountainers put wet things in their sleeping bags so that in the morning, if not dry,but it is at least warm (not frozen). But in '59 there were no such super sleeping bags.
e.g. it is advisable to keep not only gloves, but also leather boots close to your body. Either put it in the sleeping bag cleaned, or at least put it under the head [like a pillow]. Because it is very painful to put on frozen boots in the morning.

Spending the night on the mountainside is extremely bizarre and absurd. There are facts that prove that this is how it happened! The question is, do we believe them?

[GlennM]

I believe them because of the preponderance of individuals who at the time were involved. I suppose every one of them asked the seminal question," why did they leave the tent?" No one can prove weather because it is transient and time hard passed. No one can prove conspiracy owing to lack of physical evidence. Nobody can prove any other of the numerous ideas.

I do not place a great deal of credence in unsubstantiated claims made decades after the incident, one of many such incidents, that the author knows the truth. We have forum members who believe in cryptic messages, high and low complexity conspiracy and cover ups and so forth. As Ziljoe wisely pointed out, it reveals more about the person who posts than the content being posted.

I think it was weather and bad timing that ended their lives.

[bongyi]

In the absence of local knowledge and practice, it is not possible to make a valid statement.  But frozen biscuits and cold water are certainly not enough food to endure the cold and climb Otorten. Especially not in combination with the first night without a heating in -40 degrees!  And especially not when they completely tired themselves out on the 31st!

[Ziljoe]

From the state manual . The rusks are dried to remove moisture , the pork loin is selected because of the high calories in the fat. The quarter master prepares the food in an orderly fashion and distributes the food.Everyoune has a task and everyone follows a routine . After consumption , all products would be put away . The food that is found open or scattered in the tent is the food recommended to be consumed in a cold camp. Every other hike in winter informs us of this also in written documented reports.

It is another detail that I doubt someone would bother to stage . Food is either being made ready for everyone to eat in the tent or for the days journey ahead.

1. The Rule on "Cold Bivouacs" (Организация холодных ночевок):

«При организации холодных ночевок в безлесной зоне, во избежание тяжелых обморожений и порчи зубов, категорически запрещается употребление замерзших влажных продуктов. Все продукты должны быть максимально обезвожены. Свежий хлеб заменяется сухарями.»

Translation: "When organizing cold bivouacs in treeless zones, to prevent severe frostbite and dental damage, the consumption of frozen, moist products is strictly prohibited. All provisions must be maximally dehydrated. Fresh bread is to be replaced by dried rusks [sukhari]."


2. The Rule on Consuming Fats in the Cold (Питание в зимнем походе):

«Высококалорийные жиры (сало, корейка) на морозе замерзают до твердости камня. Продукты такого рода необходимо предварительно нарезать острым ножом на тонкие ломтики (пластины), чтобы они таяли во рту от тепла языка, не требуя разжевывания.»

Translation: "High-calorie fats (salo, pork loin) freeze to stone-hardness in winter conditions. Provisions of this nature must be pre-sliced with a sharp knife into thin wafers (strips) so they melt in the mouth from the warmth of the tongue, requiring no forceful chewing."

[bongyi]

We have to talk about limited calorie intake on the mountainside, while compared to the previous ones, the weather conditions are drastically deteriorating and in order to resist them, hikers should consume significantly more calories!  The energy obtained from the calories consumed is used to resist the cold.  It will be significantly colder than before, and under these conditions the team will start to starve and thirst (another important factor)! And this is how Gyatlov wants to go for Otorten? What exactly do you want? Seems like a very bad decision! This risks not only the success of the tour, but also illness! Everything would be given at the forest, they can cook, set up a tent normally and heat it!

[Ziljoe]

For all hikes from the 1930s , if not before , give the information on what food to take on winter and summer hikes. There is precise instruction on what to eat , when to eat and how to eat. There are set breaks and calories with specific foods when to eat on cold bivouacs or climbing mountains when food cannot be heated. It is expected that tourists will get stuck in snow holes or out of the forest.

Every eventuality is considered and that is the purpose of these products. Nothing is different from many tourist hikes over many years by many groups.

[bongyi]

For all hikes from the 1930s , if not before , give the information on what food to take on winter and summer hikes. There is precise instruction on what to eat , when to eat and how to eat. There are set breaks and calories with specific foods when to eat on cold bivouacs or climbing mountains when food cannot be heated. It is expected that tourists will get stuck in snow holes or out of the forest.

Every eventuality is considered and that is the purpose of these products. Nothing is different from many tourist hikes over many years by many groups.

I understand, but it doesn't matter. Just because there is a protkoll, there will still be too few calories consumed when camping on the mountainside, because the possibilities are limited. It must be great to stuff frozen chops into their bellies! Then they will be cooled from the inside! On such a basis, they could have taken ice cream with them!
I'm afraid you don't understand the significance of this! Think of it in terms of cold resistance, satiety and hunger are as different as whether you are dressed or not!
We don't shock ourselves with starvation and freezing before the goal! On the contrary!
Can you tell me how to continue the tour? If nothing had happened, how would they have gone on? Tell me until they get back to the labaz!  They get up in the morning and have their last sip of cold water...and after? How to proceed?

[GlennM]

I think the answer must by now be obvious. Since the thread was about gloves, they were going to boil them at the first opportunity. What seasonings did they bring?

[Ziljoe]

For all hikes from the 1930s , if not before , give the information on what food to take on winter and summer hikes. There is precise instruction on what to eat , when to eat and how to eat. There are set breaks and calories with specific foods when to eat on cold bivouacs or climbing mountains when food cannot be heated. It is expected that tourists will get stuck in snow holes or out of the forest.

Every eventuality is considered and that is the purpose of these products. Nothing is different from many tourist hikes over many years by many groups.

I understand, but it doesn't matter. Just because there is a protkoll, there will still be too few calories consumed when camping on the mountainside, because the possibilities are limited. It must be great to stuff frozen chops into their bellies! Then they will be cooled from the inside! On such a basis, they could have taken ice cream with them!
I'm afraid you don't understand the significance of this! Think of it in terms of cold resistance, satiety and hunger are as different as whether you are dressed or not!
We don't shock ourselves with starvation and freezing before the goal! On the contrary!
Can you tell me how to continue the tour? If nothing had happened, how would they have gone on? Tell me until they get back to the labaz!  They get up in the morning and have their last sip of cold water...and after? How to proceed?

I'm not sure I fully understand what you are saying. They are not doing anything different or climbing mount Everest. They have a relatively easy horizontal hike. They are only early into this 300km trip , this is the same as all hikes gaining a grade 3. They have more food in the tent than sliced pork and rusks.

If they delayed at the labaz , they probably had a hot breakfast before climbing the pass . What is found in the tent open and being consumed is the food used for eating without a heat source. This is what's stipulated in the guide books. There is no need to think different and it's a detail that shows that the tent site was unlikely to be staged . There's porridge of some sort in a cup and this could be softened with water . It might have been in the flasks . The next day they move on to the next stop and probably camp in the woods again. Treat themselves to a hot dinner. The food is designed to be used where you can't heat it. They have high calorie food . It wasn't the last supper.

[bongyi]

If they camp in the forest the next day, they lose height! If you can lose altitude the next day, why not on February 1st? That makes no sense!
It could be that they would continue on a ridge. And they would spend more cold nights. Their problem was probably that on January 31 they made very difficult progress. They are on the border of two worlds. One is the usual route by the stream, the other is the barren mountainside with its slopes, frozen snow [firm] and stormy winds. That's where everything goes wrong. Detour towards the pass and back to Auspiya. They're exhausting. And they thought that if they went on the ridge, they would make better progress. But for drinking water, they must definitely return to the forest or the valley and lose height. I admit, I don't understand what Gyatlov could have planned?

Himalaya is different! There are no options there. But even there, in the base camp, they eat properly. They don't set off for the summit hungry and frozen! The equipment is different. e.g. mini petrol cooker for snow melting. The air pressure is lower there, so the water boils at a lower temperature. But it still takes hours to produce the right amount of liquid. These are critical questions: hydration, nutrition! Everything is measured and calculated. The dynamics of movement are different. They need to move as quickly and as much as possible to fit into the weather window. You often have to go at night and they don't sleep much. You can't compare what the Gyatlovs are doing to this.

There are times when we just say let's go camping in the cold for two or three days for fun. We try ourselves, we test whether we can handle it! We just don't do this on a serious tour, when there is a set goal, we don't test ourselves by exhausting our reserves! This is irrational! Maybe such a test would fit towards the end of the tour, but not before the Otorten! It endangers the whole tour!

I understand that there is a protocol for what and how to eat in the cold. Only you don't understand that it doesn't matter. Because both nutrition and hydration are limited on the mountainside! And these are critical questions! Such situations must be avoided! Of course, if you can't avoid it, you have to be able to solve it. The fact that there are protocols for what to eat in such cases does not change the fact that this is far from an ideal situation! Calories will be low and drinking water will be scarce. If you don't eat enough, you'll be shaking from the cold all night and completely exhausted by morning!

[bongyi]

I think the answer must by now be obvious. Since the thread was about gloves, they were going to boil them at the first opportunity. What seasonings did they bring?

You're right. Sorry! We've hijack the topic!  Let's get back to the gloves!

[Ziljoe]

If they camp in the forest the next day, they lose height! If you can lose altitude the next day, why not on February 1st? That makes no sense!
It could be that they would continue on a ridge. And they would spend more cold nights. Their problem was probably that on January 31 they made very difficult progress. They are on the border of two worlds. One is the usual route by the stream, the other is the barren mountainside with its slopes, frozen snow [firm] and stormy winds. That's where everything goes wrong. Detour towards the pass and back to Auspiya. They're exhausting. And they thought that if they went on the ridge, they would make better progress. But for drinking water, they must definitely return to the forest or the valley and lose height. I admit, I don't understand what Gyatlov could have planned?

Himalaya is different! There are no options there. But even there, in the base camp, they eat properly. They don't set off for the summit hungry and frozen! The equipment is different. e.g. mini petrol cooker for snow melting. The air pressure is lower there, so the water boils at a lower temperature. But it still takes hours to produce the right amount of liquid. These are critical questions: hydration, nutrition! Everything is measured and calculated. The dynamics of movement are different. They need to move as quickly and as much as possible to fit into the weather window. You often have to go at night and they don't sleep much. You can't compare what the Gyatlovs are doing to this.

There are times when we just say let's go camping in the cold for two or three days for fun. We try ourselves, we test whether we can handle it! We just don't do this on a serious tour, when there is a set goal, we don't test ourselves by exhausting our reserves! This is irrational! Maybe such a test would fit towards the end of the tour, but not before the Otorten! It endangers the whole tour!

I understand that there is a protocol for what and how to eat in the cold. Only you don't understand that it doesn't matter. Because both nutrition and hydration are limited on the mountainside! And these are critical questions! Such situations must be avoided! Of course, if you can't avoid it, you have to be able to solve it. The fact that there are protocols for what to eat in such cases does not change the fact that this is far from an ideal situation! Calories will be low and drinking water will be scarce. If you don't eat enough, you'll be shaking from the cold all night and completely exhausted by morning!

They have enough food and calories, they intend to travel the ridge and through the forest. A group was stuck in a snow hole for 5 days before they could move on.  Do you think they ordered home delivery for McDonald's?

It's not a test , it's part of hiking , the foods are for eating in all sorts of conditions. The height of Ortoten is only around 150 m higher than 1079. They are at the beginning of their hike.

They had to yet climb Oyka-Chakur which is higher again after Ortoten and hoped to rendezvous with another group. So the route goes from labaz , pass , Ortoten , to pass , labaz and south to Oyka-Chakur . All in a combination of forest or exposed camps depending on weather and time. It's not new, it's not radical , the food and conditions are the same for all tourists .

The elevation difference along the ridges is an inconvenience but that's it. There's nothing mysterious about eating the food in the tent and the food that was found lying around is the food that needs minimal heating. It's what they would eat , it tells us that all is normal .