Why did Igor die?

[amashilu]

Igor's autopsy notes that although he was certainly beat up, ".....the above-mentioned injuries are light and not damaging to health" and concludes that therefore he died from freezing.

I am trying to understand this.

Igor was experienced at winter hiking and knew how to build a snow shelter. He was warmly dressed (except for shoes), injured but not incapacitated, strong, intelligent, and skillful, and certainly had a will to live.

If he was the last one alive, or one of the 2 or 3 last ones, why didn't he dig himself a shelter?

Do we believe that he just laid down and died?

[Senior Maldonado]

If he was the last one alive, why didn't he dig himself a shelter?

Probably, Igor was one of the first to die. Otherwise, he would have taken additional clothing from the corpses. The last to die were R4, and we can see clearly that they borrowed pullovers, pants, and more from their friends, who had already been dead.

[amashilu]

If he was one of the first to die, then again, why did he die?

[bongyi]

I do not know. It's already strange that then there would be a difference in the conditions at the cedar and at the beginning of the journey to the tent, so that someone freezes while moving! And why is he lying on his back, stretched out and hugging the tree branch? Why not protect yourself curled up from the cold? And the much weaker Zina would go much further! That's quite impossible, let's face it!

Obviously it didn't happen that way! But then how?

[Senior Maldonado]

If he was one of the first to die, then again, why did he die?

According to the autopsy report, Igor froze to death, when he attempted to go against crazy cold wind back to the tent. But we do not have results of chemical analysis of his tissues. It leaves us vast area for speculations. I tend to believe that Igor's lungs were stuffed with that beta emitter, which expert Levashov found in May on R4 clothes. Beta particles kill live cells, when they penetrate human organs.

[amashilu]

According to the autopsy report, Igor froze to death, when he attempted to go against crazy cold wind back to the tent. But we do not have results of chemical analysis of his tissues. It leaves us vast area for speculations. I tend to believe that Igor's lungs were stuffed with that beta emitter, which expert Levashov found in May on R4 clothes. Beta particles kill live cells, when they penetrate human organs.

Yes, I think it had to be something like that; either beta radiation or some kind of chemical mist or fuel. He is not the kind of person to just lie down and die.

I would like to hear what those who hang their hat on a snow collapse think about why Igor died.

[Ziljoe]

Where does it say Igor was certainly beat up?

[amashilu]

Where does it say Igor was certainly beat up?

Ziljoe, "beat up" is my own phrase for his cuts and bruises.

[GlennM]

That really does get to the heart of the disaster.  Lets explore the question. There is nothing in the case file to suggest anyone slowed the progress of the hike after Yuden departed. Igor's ski boots being cached is something that seems wrong though. So, I will assume for sake of arguement that when they left the tent on 1079, all were equally fit to travel. They must have had only two priorities. They were heat and shelter. From the available evidence the heat produced by the fire at the cedar was insufficient to heat them all up as a group. One forum contributor suggests that excavating a snow cave happened at the same time as fire building, hinting at an early division of labor. It also suggests a relay from excavation to warming and back to excavation.  I suggest Zolo was in charge of the cave.

If three people abandoned this process to return to the tent, I can only imagine it because the weather had moderated.  That said, I think they would retrace their steps for safety and efficiency. This did not happen. I think it odd because the prints were preserved. This hints that the weather was not that much improved, but it also suggests desperation. Again, a conundrum. What was so compelling that they couldn't attend to when they all first left the tent? 

So, was Igor first to die? I do not think his state of dress is an indication. IRZ may have acted independently of the others who in their sub group, shared tunnelling tasks and clothing from the Yuris. If so. The Yuris may not have proceeded IRZ in death. For me the only indicators for IRZ are the time it takes for the body to shut down, the direction of travel and injuries. I do not see any cardinal indicator that Igor, nor anyone else was first to succumb.  My intuition says that they all fought the urge to sleep until each in their own time did so.

[GlennM]

I will also add in light of the neta emission comments that it would be a singularly low form of cowardice for a group leader to abandon his group. Captain Schettino of the Costa Concordia noted.

[amashilu]

I will also add in light of the neta emission comments that it would be a singularly low form of cowardice for a group leader to abandon his group. Captain Schettino of the Costa Concordia noted.

Glennm, I'm sorry but I don't understand this? Is there a spelling error or auto-correct somewhere that obfuscates what you are trying to say?

[GlennM]

Pesky autocorrect. What I was getting at was that I find it doubtful Igor would abandon his companions in a crisis. We do know that other leaders have been a disappointment in a crisis.

[amashilu]

Pesky autocorrect. What I was getting at was that I find it doubtful Igor would abandon his companions in a crisis. We do know that other leaders have been a disappointment in a crisis.

Oh I totally agree.

[GlennM]

Amashilu, what is your thinking about the progression of the events in the forest?

[amashilu]

Amashilu, what is your thinking about the progression of the events in the forest?

Glennm, I wish I could answer that question.
Why did Igor die?
Did someone really climb the tree? and if so, why on earth would they do that?
How did Krivonischenko burn his left shin?
I have to start with simple facts, one at a time, and see where each one leads, before arriving at a place where I can actually build a theory or a timeline.

[GlennM]

Of course these are interesting details.Forging connections is the art. The connections can be constructed by looking at related events with a pre conceived explanation, or looking at them from a point of view which contends that there is no other realistic explanation. That is deucedly hard.

At the cedar, the idea that someone climbed it is actually a logical glue which joins the objective fact that broken branches were observed and the Yuri K displayed a head injury. Whether anyone climbed the tree is not a fact, rather it is a connection, but you already know this.

Ziljoe is one who really reasons from the facts backwards and forwards to sense the motivational and behavioral glue between factual points of reference.

Recently, we have some contributers who are taking issue with the facts as presented in case files and later discoveries. Their efforts to write a new narrative which confirms to. Their pre conceived explanation does nothing to move the needle toward truth, rather it mires the forum down into disputes and insults.

I suggest tackling Igor, Rustem and Zina, last actions. Go at it from the point of view that it could not be explained any other way and make logical sense to us.

[Ziljoe]

Amashilu, what is your thinking about the progression of the events in the forest?

Glennm, I wish I could answer that question.
Why did Igor die?
Did someone really climb the tree? and if so, why on earth would they do that?
How did Krivonischenko burn his left shin?
I have to start with simple facts, one at a time, and see where each one leads, before arriving at a place where I can actually build a theory or a timeline.

It would seem reasonable to assume Igor died from cold exposure. The body is in a posture that is common for deaths from extreme cold and hypothermia. The muscles react in that way when lying on ones back.

The instructions from the hiking manuals explain exactly why people climb trees. So do the archived reports from other hikes. Sometimes they do for viewing in the distance and other times to get the best dry branches for a fire . In an emergency, here are some of the instructions given in the manuals below.


"A serious emergency situation: a group gets lost in bad weather, loses their skis, and descends to the edge of the forest. The forest, with its ability to start a fire, offers salvation to the struggling tourist group. The leader or experienced hikers must quell panic and motivate the group to take action (after all, hunters and taiga dwellers spend the night in the forest without tents in winter). Therefore, they should head deeper into the forest to find a lull from the wind. The strongest go ahead to dig a trench in the snow. An exhausted comrade should not be left to rest (they won't survive); everyone must stick together. Having chosen a site for an emergency camp with plenty of dead wood, the group decides where to start a fire. If an axe and saw are unavailable, a spot with plenty of thin deadwood or large trees with dry lower branches that can be broken off by hand is chosen. Two or three people gather firewood for the night, while the rest dig a hole to the ground. Snow from the pit is carried up in backpacks and windbreakers, the bottom of the pit is lined with spruce branches, the top is partially covered with branches, and then a fire is lit. The group warms up and settles down for the night.

If the snow cover is shallow or the ground is open, the chosen spot under large trees is cleared of snow to the ground, a shelter or windbreak is built, firewood is stored for the night, and a fire is lit. Everyone warms up and dries their clothes.

Yuri most likely got his burn from the fire, it is a graded radiation burn , in keeping with the angle of his limb when his body was found.

[amashilu]

Amashilu, what is your thinking about the progression of the events in the forest?

Glennm, I wish I could answer that question.
Why did Igor die?
Did someone really climb the tree? and if so, why on earth would they do that?
How did Krivonischenko burn his left shin?
I have to start with simple facts, one at a time, and see where each one leads, before arriving at a place where I can actually build a theory or a timeline.

It would seem reasonable to assume Igor died from cold exposure. The body is in a posture that is common for deaths from extreme cold and hypothermia. The muscles react in that way when lying on ones back.

The instructions from the hiking manuals explain exactly why people climb trees. So do the archived reports from other hikes. Sometimes they do for viewing in the distance and other times to get the best dry branches for a fire . In an emergency, here are some of the instructions given in the manuals below.


"A serious emergency situation: a group gets lost in bad weather, loses their skis, and descends to the edge of the forest. The forest, with its ability to start a fire, offers salvation to the struggling tourist group. The leader or experienced hikers must quell panic and motivate the group to take action (after all, hunters and taiga dwellers spend the night in the forest without tents in winter). Therefore, they should head deeper into the forest to find a lull from the wind. The strongest go ahead to dig a trench in the snow. An exhausted comrade should not be left to rest (they won't survive); everyone must stick together. Having chosen a site for an emergency camp with plenty of dead wood, the group decides where to start a fire. If an axe and saw are unavailable, a spot with plenty of thin deadwood or large trees with dry lower branches that can be broken off by hand is chosen. Two or three people gather firewood for the night, while the rest dig a hole to the ground. Snow from the pit is carried up in backpacks and windbreakers, the bottom of the pit is lined with spruce branches, the top is partially covered with branches, and then a fire is lit. The group warms up and settles down for the night.

If the snow cover is shallow or the ground is open, the chosen spot under large trees is cleared of snow to the ground, a shelter or windbreak is built, firewood is stored for the night, and a fire is lit. Everyone warms up and dries their clothes.

Yuri most likely got his burn from the fire, it is a graded radiation burn , in keeping with the angle of his limb when his body was found.

I guess I wasn't really introducing all of those topics in this thread; I was just trying to explain to GlennM that I like to post and explore one question at a time with forum members, each in its own thread. 

But ... since you have been mentioning these "manuals" lately, I would like to encourage you to start a thread about them and share where you got them, what year they were created, were they handed out at the Ural Polytechnic, and other general stuff about them.

[Ziljoe]

]

I guess I wasn't really introducing all of those topics in this thread; I was just trying to explain to GlennM that I like to post and explore one question at a time with forum members, each in its own thread. 

But ... since you have been mentioning these "manuals" lately, I would like to encourage you to start a thread about them and share where you got them, what year they were created, were they handed out at the Ural Polytechnic, and other general stuff about them.

Theres not lots of topics there . It's in response to your three questions.
Ironically,I'm in a real life situation where documents have been changed and documents manipulated. My time is short to for detail as I'm cross referencing several things at once.

The manuals are all in the soviet archives in a number of editions . As are all the hikes by other tourists, at least those that were archived . At the beak up of the soviet union , many were lost or still exist but in other countries archive's. There's a book where two of the searchers believe there was an avalanche and give further detail about many of the other searchers and what was actually the layout of the tent etc.

The iconic photo of Zolo with his hand holding his head and I think Yuri behind him whilst Igor reads a map seems to be an inside joke as the pose is replicated on another hike by a tourist sitting on his pack. It may be reference to the thinking man but we can see that the population mimicked the arts.

It has been difficult to research and find them but their logic applies to the actions of the group. I shall leave your thread alone so you may ponder the questions you ask.

[amashilu]

The manuals are all in the soviet archives in a number of editions . As are all the hikes by other tourists, at least those that were archived . At the beak up of the soviet union , many were lost or still exist but in other countries archive's. There's a book where two of the searchers believe there was an avalanche and give further detail about many of the other searchers and what was actually the layout of the tent etc.

Yes, thank you for your response. I think if you are going to quote some manuals you have found as explanations for the very incidents this forum was built to discuss, it would be important for us to know where your quotes come from.

[GlennM]

I felt Ziljoe getting slapped from here. I don't like it and there is absolutely nobody on this forum that has his level of excellence, none. If anyone needs clarification, it can be asked in a collegial way, not top down. He should be pm'd an apology..

[amashilu]

I felt Ziljoe getting slapped from here. I don't like it and there is absolutely nobody on this forum that has his level of excellence, none. If anyone needs clarification, it can be asked in a collegial way, not top down. He should be pm'd an apology..

I think you must be misunderstanding something, GlennM.

Ziljoe is quoting some manuals as explanations for the actions of the DPI hikers. It's important that s/he inform us where those manuals came from. If, for example, they are from Argentina and printed in 1972, they are not a valid research tool for this mystery.

[Ziljoe]

I think you must be misunderstanding something, GlennM.

Ziljoe is quoting some manuals as explanations for the actions of the DPI hikers. It's important that s/he inform us where those manuals came from. If, for example, they are from Argentina and printed in 1972, they are not a valid research tool for this mystery.

 Many other articles and documents from other countries and at other times have been used as research tools . Like your lights in the sky in Norway I think it was.

If an Argentina manual from 1972  had information how to survive in cold and snow by breaking branches and starting fires, it's still valid . Every country has its bush craft knowledge, snow , cold and how to survive, dosen't change over time .

It's part of the debate , that is , did they behave logically if we follow the narrative that they left the tent because of an avalanche, beast or gas etc.

Every diary entry and every photo is in the same vein as every other hiking group of that era. The manuals are on line , they are free , the books , the history is there as are a host of other hikes , their photos and reports, eating the same foods , helicopters flying by , dropping flairs , Mansi signs , Mansi help, accidents, storms etc.

I've always kept my eye on the pattern at the ravine and den, I ve just also looked for mundane evidence as well as more exotic evidence. I'll leave you in peace.

[bongyi]

Violation of elementary formal requirements, referring to some kind of authority without being named exactly.
e.g.

The instructions from the hiking manuals explain exactly why people climb trees.

Such and similar twists and turns formally illustrate the lack of quality of the content of the statement!

Just as, of course, the essence of indicating the location of the source of the quotation is that it can be checked and read afterwards. It is clearly inappropriate to refer to the Russian archives.

[bongyi]

Unfortunately, it is not at all understandable why a vigorous young man prepared in every way, who has the skills to survive, dies! However, I thought a little about how much survival of the tragedy would be a valid option for him? I mean, if he as a leader could survive the tragedy as the only one! It is not certain that he would want to fight for a life that is burdened with this!
Of course, there is no question of blaming him for anything. All hikers are above any criticism of them. An attempt to do so not only cannot be valid, but is also unworthy of their memory.
Whatever happened then, I am sure that Gyatlov, as a leader, was more than anything shaken by the suffering and death of his comrades. I can't measure the horror it could have caused him!