The Tell-Tale Livor Mortis Spots

[CalzagheChick]

Livor mortis, also known as hypostasis, is the discoloration of the skin due to the pooling of blood in the dependent parts of the body following death. The blood pools because the heart can no longer circulate the blood.
Livor mortis. - iupui
www.iupui.edu/~pathol/autopsy/main/11/11.htm

I really hate putting this topic in the General section which is becoming a bit of a mess (partly my fault for opening topics and not putting them in their respective theory if applicable), but this doesn't quite fit the qualifiers for any given theory. Livor mortis spots are defined above. There is talk that the blood did not pool in the victim's body in such a way that was consistent with how their bodies were found. This leads many to think that there was involvement earlier on than the initial search team--military? KGB? Mansi? Murderers? I don't know to be completely honest.

So I'm opening up this topic because I don't see the livor mortis in the victims ever discussed openly. I'm rather surprised at that considering many of us are so passionate about our own reserach and theories. I would think the livor mortis would have come up much sooner in the Forum.

In any case. What are  some thoughts about those pesky livor mortis spots: tell-tale that something is definitely off and those bodies were staged or at the very least tampered with before anybody had a notion that something wasn't right and nobody had received any word f rom , or who knows, it was below zero at higher altitude in bad weather, nobody can expect typical death profiles.

I look forward to reading this thread as the Site members share their thoughts about those livor mortis spots. Let's dissect this!

[Per Inge Oestmoen]

Livor mortis, also known as hypostasis, is the discoloration of the skin due to the pooling of blood in the dependent parts of the body following death. The blood pools because the heart can no longer circulate the blood.
Livor mortis. - iupui
www.iupui.edu/~pathol/autopsy/main/11/11.htm

I really hate putting this topic in the General section which is becoming a bit of a mess (partly my fault for opening topics and not putting them in their respective theory if applicable), but this doesn't quite fit the qualifiers for any given theory. Livor mortis spots are defined above. There is talk that the blood did not pool in the victim's body in such a way that was consistent with how their bodies were found. This leads many to think that there was involvement earlier on than the initial search team--military? KGB? Mansi? Murderers? I don't know to be completely honest.

You reason very well here, and of course the livor mortis formation is something that needs to be considered.

First, there are some questions to be asked:

- Is it established that the livor mortis areas on the bodies in question were inconsistent with the position in which they were found?

If so, it would indicate that someone moved the bodies after their death.

But that leads to another question.

- How long would it take for livor mortis to form in the prevailing weather conditions estimated to be between - 13 and -18C? Would that temperature influence the time it took?

[CalzagheChick]

Why the livor mortis spots did not match the position of some bodies?
Theory 1
On Doroshenko, Kolmogorova and Slobodin the livor mortis spots were on the top surface of the body. This allows speculations that the bodies were moved (turned over) after their death.

Theory 2
In "Судебно-медицинское исследование тела Рустема Слободина. Незаданные вопросы и неполученные ответы..." ("Forensic examination of the body of Rustem Slobodin. Answers not received on questions not asked...") - scroll to the bottom, the author speculates that the medical examiner Vozrozhdenny mistook frostbite erythema for livor mortis. Article is citing the forensic bible at the time "Forensic medicine" 1953 by M. I. Rayski where there is no mentioning of frostbite erythema but on p. 233 it says that livor mortis in frozen cadavers change color when carried in a warm room from purple to light red, and then darken again. Same thing happens with frostbite erythema when defrosting a corpse. So the author of the article says "it is not surprising that the medical examiner Vozrozhdenny thought that he sees livor mortis spots".

The above is from our own Controversy section.
https://dyatlovpass.com/controversy

And here is the hyperlink inserted above for the article on Rustem.
http://www.murders.ru/Dyatloff_group_1_v2_glava_6.html

[Loose}{Cannon]

Blood consists of mostly water right?    How long does it take water to freeze at the temps we are talking about?

I bet the blood wouldn't even have time to do so. 

[CalzagheChick]

Blood is mostly plasma though. I'm not sure how the temperatures affect water with massive amounts of proteins dissolved into it. I don't know the differences in plasma as opposed to water I should say--the variable being those dissolved proteins. They could change the nature of normal or expected reactions to water.

[Loose}{Cannon]

[Per Inge Oestmoen]

Blood is mostly plasma though. I'm not sure how the temperatures affect water with massive amounts of proteins dissolved into it. I don't know the differences in plasma as opposed to water I should say--the variable being those dissolved proteins. They could change the nature of normal or expected reactions to water.

Yes, that is the question.

It is known and also stated in the document linked to that livor mortis starts to form very soon after death, and in normal circumstances it is present after a couple of hours.

If we assume that this was the case also with the Dyatlov pass victims, it means that the time that passed from the death of the victims to the moment they were turned or/and moved (granted that this happened) needs not have been more than a couple of hours.

[Per Inge Oestmoen]

Why the livor mortis spots did not match the position of some bodies?
Theory 1
On Doroshenko, Kolmogorova and Slobodin the livor mortis spots were on the top surface of the body. This allows speculations that the bodies were moved (turned over) after their death.

Theory 2
In "Судебно-медицинское исследование тела Рустема Слободина. Незаданные вопросы и неполученные ответы..." ("Forensic examination of the body of Rustem Slobodin. Answers not received on questions not asked...") - scroll to the bottom, the author speculates that the medical examiner Vozrozhdenny mistook frostbite erythema for livor mortis. Article is citing the forensic bible at the time "Forensic medicine" 1953 by M. I. Rayski where there is no mentioning of frostbite erythema but on p. 233 it says that livor mortis in frozen cadavers change color when carried in a warm room from purple to light red, and then darken again. Same thing happens with frostbite erythema when defrosting a corpse. So the author of the article says "it is not surprising that the medical examiner Vozrozhdenny thought that he sees livor mortis spots".

The above is from our own Controversy section.
https://dyatlovpass.com/controversy

And here is the hyperlink inserted above for the article on Rustem.
http://www.murders.ru/Dyatloff_group_1_v2_glava_6.html

It is difficult to see how Vozrozhdenny could have been wrong regarding the liver mortis of these bodies. It is understood how frostbite erythema can change color, but even in the presence of frostbite erythema the livor mortis would still have been present on the corpses. It is not probable that it would escape Vozrozhdenny's attention. So there seems to be no actual basis for believing that Vozrozhdenny mistook frostbite erythema for livor mortis.

[Loose}{Cannon]

So.....  Rustem dies in this position?     I call BS

[CalzagheChick]

I'm very much aware of this science project and the science behind it being that a sudden disruption in the molecules cause a chain reaction and they start to form those links (ice crystals) hence the ice forming right before our eyes.

[CalzagheChick]

So.....  Rustem dies in this position?     I call BS

Any thoughts on HOW or WHY rather he's in this position?

[Loose}{Cannon]

I'm very much aware of this science project and the science behind it being that a sudden disruption in the molecules cause a chain reaction and they start to form those links (ice crystals) hence the ice forming right before our eyes.

Laff.....   All Im saying is that they died in a super cold environment in which the livor mortis may have behaved differently given how fast the body would freeze after death.  Im also certain the core temp would already have been pretty low prior to death. 

[Loose}{Cannon]

This looks like a pretty darn natural position/orientation to me!

[CalzagheChick]

Not following you.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Not following you.

Which part?

I dont need any more followers.     

[CalzagheChick]

I don't get what you're saying about Rustem. What is BS and what is natural?

[Loose}{Cannon]

I don't get what you're saying about Rustem. What is BS and what is natural?

The position of his body as found as apposed to where the Rivor mortise is "said" to be located.  If its said he had this on his backside, but upon looking at his position in the morgue.....  it doesn't add up.  The only position that looks natural is the one he was found in.  So I don't believe this crap about him being on his back when mortis set in.

[Per Inge Oestmoen]

I don't get what you're saying about Rustem. What is BS and what is natural?

The position of his body as found as apposed to where the Rivor mortise is "said" to be located.  If its said he had this on his backside, but upon looking at his position in the morgue.....  it doesn't add up.  The only position that looks natural is the one he was found in.  So I don't believe this crap about him being on his back when mortis set in.

Why do you think the position in which he was found looks like a more "natural" position than a position where he lies on his back in the moment of death? Can you explain? 

[Eve24]

The rescuers flipped him over not wanting to see his facial expression of agony