Extraterestrial involvement

[sarapuk]

Does any one have any new thoughts on the possibility of EXTRATERRESTRIAL involvement. Note ; Witnesses seeing UFOs in the area and the nature of the injuries to some members of the Dyatlov group.  Note ; In the USA in particular there is an history of sightings of very large non human creatures said to resemble apes. There have also been reports of such creatures being responsible for killing people in some of the more remote parts such as Alaska. Note ; Some of the injuries to some members of the Dyatlov group were similar to injuries found on animals in various parts of the World, commonly known as ANIMAL MUTILATIONS.

[Blkdahlia]

Taking into consideration all things because the invesitgation was poorly conducted, I’ll entertain this to see where it goes.
I know there are many believers out there and I’m surprised to see so few posts on the topic of UFO or aliens.
The lights in the sky seen by a group of other campers were not unusual for the area according to locals.
This would in no way cause Dyatlov group to cut their only means of shelter just to go see the lights when they can walk out the front of the tent.
The aurora boreails is the best example I can think of.

[sarapuk]

Iam surprised that more people are not seeming to go down the extraterrestrial road. Or considering the legends of the Yeti like creatures etc. There doesnt really seem to have been much in the way of an investigation. Cover up springs to mind. But it was bad weather at the time of the initial search, not that that should have hampered the search because the Soviet Authorities would have thought nothing of those kind of temperatures etc. All adds to the mystery.

[CalzagheChick]

Occam's razor (or Ockham's razor) is a principle from philosophy. Suppose there exist two explanations for an occurrence. In this case the simpler one is usually better. Another way of saying it is that the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation.

This would explain why people are more busy discussing with each other in the theories section the possibilities that are more likely than not. In other words, they aren't simply contributing simplistic thoughts with no support with single sentences like, "More infeasability...." under the theories with the most support such as dead drop, military involvement, chemical attack, Mansi murder, etc rather than entertaining the two theories that require more imagination than reason and logic: extraterrestrial UFO's and Yeti's.

[Loose}{Cannon]

 

 

[sarapuk]

Well I would have thought that any unexplained phenomena must be worth investigating, ie, reports of lights in the sky around the time of THE INCIDENT.

[Morski]

I dont think it is so strange, that few people go down the "extraterrestrial road". Out of the most popular theories, that of a ufo or humanoid creature are most hard to proof, therefore their interpretations and explanations suffer. But of course, people have different mindsets for what to consider possible, or real.
 
For me, I tnink that there isnt too much to argue about, spicifically regarding the Dyatlov Pass incident. For pretty much every other theory there is something to hold on to - being physical evidence, witness testimony, available documents, reports, and therefore a lot of reasonable discussions. Lights in the sky dont necessarily proof ufo activity and legends are not sufficient to put the blame on poor ol` Yeti.

I understand, that every unexplained phenomena needs discussion, but probably the lack of such discussion in that topic speaks for itself. Perhaps when/if the other popular theories drain off, or get decisively rejected, the sounding less plausible would get more attention.
 

[sarapuk]

Yes the UFO road is definitely off the beaten track. The main road is bound to get more attention.

[sarapuk]

See these UFO reports during the investigation.


16. III.59 To the
Chief of the Ivdel Police Station  17. II. 59, 6 h. 50 m. Local time in the sky appeared not an ordinary phenomenon. Movement of a star with a tail. The tail looked like dense cirrus clouds. Then this star was freed from the tail, became brighter than the stars and flew. It gradually began to swell, forming a large ball, enveloped in a haze. Then inside this ball the star caught fire, from which first a crescent was formed, then a small ball formed, not so bright. The big ball gradually began to fade, became like a blurry spot. At 075 hours it disappeared altogether. A star moved from the south to the northeast.


Meteorological Technician Tokarev (signature) 
Early. HMS Piguzova (signature)
Sheet 260


Prodanov, Vishnevsky, 31.03.59, 9.30 local time.
31.3 04 00 in the southeast direction, the orderly Meshcheryakov noticed a large ring of fire that for 20 minutes moved on us, hiding behind a height of 880. 
Before disappearing beyond the horizon, a star appeared from the center of the ring, which gradually increased to the size of the moon, became fall down separating from the ring.
An unusual phenomenon was observed by all the personnel raised by alarm.
We ask you to explain this phenomenon and its safety, since in our conditions this produces an alarming impression.


Avenburg Potapov Sogrin

Sheet 264


The protocol of interrogation of the witness on April 7, 1959 .... Prosecutor of the city of Ivdel, ml Justice Advisor Tempalov ... 
Savkin Alexander Dmitrievich, born in 1926, serviceman, Military Unit 6602 "B", 9 classes, member. CPSU, Russian, Personalities No. 7919, education of 9 classes ... The 
witness showed: 1 February 7, 1959 at 6:40 in the morning while in office on the south side the ball appeared brightly white light, which periodically enveloped in a white dense fog inside this cloud was a bright-luminous point the size of an asterisk.
Moving towards the north direction the ball was visible for 8-10 minutes.
The interrogation protocol was filled in by his own hand on April 7, 1959. Savkin
Prosecutor Mr. Ivdel Tempalov (signature)
Sheet 266


The protocol of interrogation of the witness ... by the prosecutor of Ivdel, ml by Justice Adviser Tempalov ... 
Novikov Alexander Stepanovich, born in 1929, serviceman, V / H 6602 "B", member. CPSU, Russian, identity card 7374, special secondary education ... The 
witness showed: on February 17, 1959 at 6.40 am, from the south mark I could see a ball of bright white cet which periodically enveloped in white dense fog. Inside this cloud a bright luminous point the size of an asterisk was observed. Periodically decreased and increased in volume. The balloon moved from south to north. The movement of the ball was observed for 8-12 m. 
The interrogation protocol was executed with his own hand. April 7, 1959 
Novikov (signature) 
Prosecutor Mr. Ivdel Tempalov (signature)
Sheet 267


The protocol of interrogation of the witness ... by the prosecutor of Ivdel, ml by Justice Adviser Tempalov ... 
Anisimov Anatoly Leonidovich, born in 1937, serviceman, V / H No. 6602, member. VLKSM, Russian, service book No. 65764, education of 7 classes ...


turnover


On February 17, 1959, at 6:00 (illegible) minutes of the morning, I was on duty.
At this time, from the south side, appeared a ball of large sizes, enveloped in white fog. The big circle. When moving across the sky, the ball then increased, then decreased its brightness. With a decrease, the ball hid in a white fog and only a luminous dot could be seen through this fog. Periodically the luminous point increased its brightness, increasing also in size. With increasing brightness, the luminous point, which took the form of a sphere, it seemed to push the fog (unintelligible), while at the same time increasing its density along the edges, and then hiding itself in the fog. The impression was created that the ball itself radiated this (inaudible) fog, which formed the shape of a circle around (inaudible). The ball moved very slowly and at high altitude. This ball was visible for ten minutes, and then disappeared in the north, as if melted away. That's all I saw.


The interrogation protocol was filled in by his own hand on April 7, 1959. Anisimov A.L. (signature) 
Prosecutor Mr. Ivdel Tempalov (signature)
Interrogation of witness Karelin V.G.
Sheet 290

Protocol of interrogation of the witness April 15, 1959 Prosecutor of the Investigative Department of the Prosecutor's Office of the Sverdlovsk Region ml. counselor of justice Romanov in the oblast prosecutor's office as a witness of Art. Art. 62-168 Code of Criminal Procedure of the RSFSR
In connection with the death of the group Dyatlov should tell us about the unusual celestial phenomenon, which we observed in our campaign on February 17, 1959 on the watershed ridges of the rivers of the North Toshake and Vizhaem. Around 7:30 am Sverdlovsk time, I was awakened by the cry of the people on duty preparing breakfast: "Guys, look, look, what a strange phenomenon!".
I jumped out of the sleeping bag and out of the tent without shoes in some woolen socks and, standing on the branches, saw a large bright spot. It grew. In the center of it appeared a small star, which also began to increase. All this stain moved from the northeast to the southwest and fell to the ground. Then it disappeared behind the forest and the forest, leaving a bright strip in the sky. This phenomenon produced a different impression on different people: Atmanaki claimed that it seemed to him that now zamlya would explode from a collision with some planet; This phenomenon seemed to Shevkunov "not so terrible", it did not make a special impression on me - the fall of a large meteorite and nothing more. All this phenomenon took place just over a minute.Interrogation of witness Skorykh GI.
Sheet 378


Protocol of interrogation of the witness Skorykh
G. Novaya Lyalya May 29, 1959


The prosecutor of the Novo-Lyalinsky district, the junior counselor of justice Pershin interrogated as a witness of Skorykh George Ivanovich, born in 1925, a native of the Altai Territory of the Solonishinsky district, p. Bulatovo, non-partisan, the formation of 7 classes, by nationality of Russian, marital status - married, having a family of 5 people, works as the head of the plot of the Karaul subsidiary farm of the Bumkombinat, living with. Guard of the Novo-Lyalinsky district of the Sverdlovsk region.
"On criminal liability under Article 92, 95 of the Criminal Code of the RSFSR for refusing to testify and give false testimony is warned." Skorykh (signature)


Sheet 378 - turnover


In essence, given the polls, I will explain that approximately in the middle of February, 1959, I was in my apartment in the village of Karaul Novo-Lyalinsky district.
Approximately 6-7 o'clock in the morning, my wife went out into the street and immediately (struck out "ver" - note), she knocked at the window and shouted to me through the window: "Look at what a ball is flying and turns." At this cry I jumped out onto the porch and from the second floor of the house in which I live from the porch I saw how far away a large luminous sphere


Sheet 379


the size of the sun or the moon. I can describe the picture of what I saw, so this glowing sphere looked like a bright sun in a fog. The ball moved in a straight line far from us, but I noticed that the light of this ball was constantly changing in a certain alternation of red and green light, around which at the same time a white halo in the form of a sphere was constantly preserved.

From here the impression was created that this moving ball changing color was in a white shell


Sheet 379 - turnover


Alternating red and green light was produced periodically. The ball disappeared very quickly and I watched it only for a few seconds, after which it disappeared behind the horizon.

No noise from the flight of this ball, I have not heard and believe that the ball flew away from us at a very long distance.

This ball, as I imagine walking along the Ural ridge from the south to the server, but I can not specify the exact direction of the flight, because


Sheet 380


all this happened instantly for a few seconds and at what distance this ball was from us I could not even orient myself, especially since I immediately after I got out of bed, and therefore even for this reason I could not ("orientate" struck out - note ed.) catch all that is happening.


Recorded correctly. Read. Skorykh (Signed) 
Prosecutor Pershin interrogated (signature).

[sarapuk]

FROM AN      INTERVIEW WITH THE WIDOW PRUDKOVА V. I. ON 11 JUNE 2008

© NGO "INTERNET CENTER of the Dyatlov group tragedy", 2008. The text of the conversation of the "Center for Civil Investigation of the Dyatlov Pass tragedy" NAVIG, with widow Prudkova V.I. in Yekaterinburg on the case of Dyatlov Pass incident 11 July 2008 by phone.

 [[  my husband worked in the hospital for the civilian staff of Ivdellag and he was a surgical consultant for all the hospitals in Ivdellag (there were many points there) and was in charge of the department of this hospital.
NAVIG: He was a military?
VI: No. He was certified after graduating from the institute, he was admitted in the Ministry of Internal Affairs and was given the rank. The hospital belonged to the "Medical and Sanitary Service P.O. N-240". In these days everyone saw (in Ivdel, NAVIG notes) some glowing object, much like a moon, only it was there night and day and morning and evening, on the slope (in the sky) closer to the horizon, a triangle. It was far away and it was visually the size of 6 cm in all sides.
NAVIG: Was it staying in one place or moving?
VI: It seemed to be staying in same place.
NAVIG: This was in early February?
VI: Yes, it was then when it happened and even when we already knew about it.  ]]

[[  NAVIG: Did your husband say anything about Dyatlov group?
VI: No, we were all law-abiding and, probably, there was a non-disclosure. Here's what else was said among the population that after they found everyone, there were planes and helicopters that took something from the place of the tragedy.
NAVIG: Valentina Ivanovna, thank you for your time.  ]]

[sarapuk]

Interrogation of the witness Atmanaki
Sheet 209
- 1 -
Minutes of the
Interrogation of the witness
on April 7-8, 1959. City of Sverdlovsk, Prosecutor of the Investigation Division of the Sverdlovsk Region ml. Counselor of Justice Ivanov
Oblprokuratura
As a witness, in compliance with Art. st. 162-168 Code of Criminal Procedure of the RSFSR
1. Atmanaki Georgy Vladimirovich's last name, first name, patronymic
2. Year of birth 05/26/1934 3. Place of birth Stalin region. Kramatorsk
4. Nationality Russian.
5. Party membership is a member of the Komsomol.
6. Higher education. Dnepropetrovsk Metallurgical Institute in 1957.
7. Occupation: a) at present - the master of the KhPT shop number 3 Pervouralsk Novotrubny plant. b) at the moment to which the indication relates: the same.
8. I do not have a criminal record.
9. Permanent residence: Sverdlovsk region, mountains. Pervouralsk, Vatutina 21, apt. 18. slave 3-56 –II Sv.
10. Passport
11. What is the relationship with the accused
? About responsibility for the first part of b. 92 of the Criminal Code of the RSFSR and the refusal to give evidence and under Art. 95 of the Criminal Code of the RSFSR for giving knowingly false testimony warned.
G. Atmanaki (signature)

The witness showed that on February 2, after receiving a leave at the factory, he arrived in Sverdlovsk to prepare for participation in the campaign of the highest category of difficulty in the Northern Urals as a member of the regional team. On the 6th, after completing all the preparatory work, a group of eight people left by train Sverdlovsk - Severouralsk. The next day, we arrived at Serov, where after examining the city, we made a transfer to the Ivdelsky train and, at 12 o'clock at night, arrived at Ivdel. We spent a day and a half in the city due to the fact that the next day there was no car to the village of Vizhay - the starting point of our hike.

On February 17, Vladimir Shevkunov and I got up at 6.00 am to prepare breakfast for the group. Having burnt a fire and having done everything, they began to wait for food to be ready. The sky was overcast, there were no clouds and clouds, but there was a slight haze, which usually dissipates with the rising of the sun. Sitting facing north and accidentally turning my head to the east, I saw that a milky-white blurred spot about 5-6 lunar in diameter and consisting of a series of concentric circles spread over the sky at the height (...?). The shape was reminiscent of a halo around the moon in clear frosty weather. I made a remark to my partner, that here they say how the moon was painted. He thought and said that in the first place there is no moon, and besides, it should be on the other side. From the moment we noticed this phenomenon, 1-2 minutes passed, how long it lasted
Sheet 212
and what it looked like initially I don't know. At this moment, in the very center of this spot, an asterisk flashed, which for several seconds remained the same size, and then began to increase dramatically in size and move rapidly toward the west. Within a few seconds, it grew to the size of the moon, and then tearing up a smoke screen or clouds appeared a huge fiery disk of milky color of 2-2.5 lunar diameters surrounded by all the same rings of pale color. Then, remaining the same size, the ball began to fade until it merged with the surrounding halo, which in turn spread across the sky and went out. The dawn began. The clock was 6.57, the phenomenon lasted no more than one and a half minutes and made a very difficult impression. Initially, we did not pay attention to him, but then, when the luminous disk appeared, we were amazed. Personally, I had the impression that some celestial body was falling in our direction, then, when it grew to such enormous dimensions, a thought flashed, another planet came in contact with the earth, that now a collision would follow and nothing would be left from all the earthly. We were already awake for more than an hour, so we were able to move away after sleep and not believe the hallucinations, but in the continuation of everything stood as if hypnotized and only when
(inaudible)
I do not know how Karelin managed to quickly jump out of his sleeping bag and run out of his socks in his underwear onto the street. He managed to see a disc that was losing its shape and a bright spot spreading across the sky. I then had to talk a lot with eyewitnesses and most describe this incident in much the same way, and adds that the light from him was so strong that people in the houses woke up from sleep.

[sarapuk]

On the evening of February 2, another student hiking group led by Anatoli Shumkov climbed Mount Chistop.

“Mercury is way below -30C*. At least there is no wind. Finally, one more trek upward, and we’re on the top! A truly unique feeling! The main mountain range of the Urals stretches across the North-West. About 25 kilometers away the snowy white dome of Mount Otorten is looming against the dark, night sky.” – Mikhail Vladimirov, member of the ascent

The tourists were already preparing for the descent, when the sullen clouds in the north suddenly flashed silver. A white spark flew upward from the depths of the valley of Otorten and floated between the mountain peaks.

“This “thing” was flying silently and slowly from the south to the north over the ridge of the Urals. It was glowing quite brightly. The way it illuminated the hovering clouds, at the height of 2.5 to 3 km, was very strange.” – Anatoli Shumkov, leader of the group

[sarapuk]

http://dyatlov.looo.ch/en/p/the-enigma-of-the-fireballs

THE ENIGMA OF THE FIREBALLS

Surprisingly, one of the most extraordinary and astonishing versions came from none other than Lev Ivanov himself. In 1990, the retired Prosecutor published an article, “The Enigma of the Fireballs”, where he admitted that in spring of 1959, under the pressure of A. P. Kirilenko, and of his deputy, A. F. Yeshtokin, he withdrew various key materials from the case that indicated the true cause of the accident: “fireballs” or a UFO*.

“When E. P. Maslennikov and I examined the scene in May, we found that some young pine trees at the edge of the forest had burn marks, but those marks did not have a concentric form or some other pattern. There was no epicenter. This once again confirmed that heated beams of a strong, but completely unknown, at least to us, energy, were directing their firepower toward specific objects (in this case, people), acting selectively.”

It is worth noting that later on, Kirilenko professed a lively interest in the UFO’s, and received memos about sightings of unidentified objects from the Chairman of the KGB, Andropov.

[sarapuk]

http://dyatlov.looo.ch/en/p/the-apocrypha-of-a-dead-pilot

THE APOCRYPHA OF A DEAD PILOT

Aside from the main body of evidence of the “Dyatlov case” comes another version, presented by the pilot-navigator of the Ural Department of Civil Aviation, Georgi Karphusin and Valeria Gamatina, the widow of the second pilot, Gennadi Patrushev.

The pilots claimed that the aircraft AN-2, specifically their crew, discovered the tent, next to which laid two bodies: one male and one female.

Moreover, Patrushev allegedly met with Dyatlov in Vizhai hotel, and tried to dissuade him from trekking out to Kholat-Syakhyl and to Otorten: the Mansi, they say, are afraid of these mountains where “flying lights” and even “gods in shining garments” used to appear.

In the wake of the Incident, Patrushev and his friend, Sergei Misharin, a KGB agent, plunged into unraveling the mystery. The widow cautiously hints that Patrushev linked the events on the Mountain of the Dead with the “glowing spheres” he had seen during flights in its vicinity. In those moments, the indicator hands on the instruments would start to shake violently and the plane would lose control.

The investigation came to a sudden finale when in 1961, Gennadi Patrushev crashed flying his Yak-12 near the Chistop mountain range. Shortly thereafter, Misharin committed suicide in his own bathhouse: a shot to the head with a service weapon.

[Aspen]

I just tried an internet search for Mansi accounts of such lights or fireballs, i.e. stories that would describe details, locations, and how long this has been going on.  No luck so far.  Does anyone know of specific references to such Mansi stories?

[sarapuk]

I just tried an internet search for Mansi accounts of such lights or fireballs, i.e. stories that would describe details, locations, and how long this has been going on.  No luck so far.  Does anyone know of specific references to such Mansi stories?

Very difficult to get hold of such reports.  I think the Mansi like many such peoples around the World tend to be protective of much of their heritage, etc. Also they tend to pass a lot of their history down by word of mouth which is a common trait amongst such peoples. POEMS and SONGS are 2 ways that such history is passed down the ages. That said, there are some good MUSEUMS or HERITAGE CENTRES of the Mansi peoples in Russia.

[JimIslander]

Dunno what this is

[JimIslander]

I should have added it is from zolotyrev camera #11

[sarapuk]

I should have added it is from zolotyrev camera #11

I have commented on this type of image before. I believe its some type of fault with the Camera or Camera Lens or the Film processing or Aberration of some type or Foreign Body on the Lens. In other words NOT A UFO.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Its a magnification of a very small portion of a frame that was damaged via being in a creek for 3 months.   

That being said, Nigel will be along shortly to tell you it is proof of ball lightening, and not some experimental swept wing aircraft or rocket that a 1950s camera can catch without blur moving at mach gazillion....  in a whiteout blizzard.   

[Aspen]

It would be helpful to have the following information here, as it is relevant to this thread.  Thanks to Monika!  Hopefully, this book will eventually be translated to English, or at least a summary of it.  I haven't been able to find a good translation mechanism from Russian to English on the internet...

The following post was made by Monika:

book of O. Yaroslavtsev “UFO: MECHANICS OF MURDERS” http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=442.0

Who is consider UFO or light balling theory as the cause of the Dyatlov mystery, I suggest to see a book of O. Yaroslavtsev “UFO: MECHANICS OF MURDERS” (О. Л. Ярославцев НЛО:МЕХАНИКА УБИЙСТВ). The book is in Russian, but I was impressed by the pictures and there is a lot of detailed informations. The author really took care about, the text is not superficial, but he focused in great detail on injuries, various calculations and comparisons with existing cases. The text is accessible on the Internet (http://www.buran.ru/other/UFO_killers.pdf) and if I have the time I will gradually look at it. I will try to translate it through a translator (although it does not translate perfectly) but at least I will learn more.

Did you read this book? What do you think?

[sarapuk]

It would be helpful to have the following information here, as it is relevant to this thread.  Thanks to Monika!  Hopefully, this book will eventually be translated to English, or at least a summary of it.  I haven't been able to find a good translation mechanism from Russian to English on the internet...

The following post was made by Monika:

book of O. Yaroslavtsev “UFO: MECHANICS OF MURDERS” http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=442.0

Who is consider UFO or light balling theory as the cause of the Dyatlov mystery, I suggest to see a book of O. Yaroslavtsev “UFO: MECHANICS OF MURDERS” (О. Л. Ярославцев НЛО:МЕХАНИКА УБИЙСТВ). The book is in Russian, but I was impressed by the pictures and there is a lot of detailed informations. The author really took care about, the text is not superficial, but he focused in great detail on injuries, various calculations and comparisons with existing cases. The text is accessible on the Internet (http://www.buran.ru/other/UFO_killers.pdf) and if I have the time I will gradually look at it. I will try to translate it through a translator (although it does not translate perfectly) but at least I will learn more.

Did you read this book? What do you think?

Looks like a well researched book. Shame we cant read it. I guess until more Russians learn the English language thats the way it will be.

[spotterroe]

Of all the issues in identifying what happened to the hikers, the key is how was it that Lyudmila Dubinina was found to have no tongue and no eyes and as stated at the start of this thread this draws a parallel to cattle mutilations that have been reported in other locations.
I believe this is the key in identifying the involvement of UFO activity as the most probable cause.

[sarapuk]

Of all the issues in identifying what happened to the hikers, the key is how was it that Lyudmila Dubinina was found to have no tongue and no eyes and as stated at the start of this thread this draws a parallel to cattle mutilations that have been reported in other locations.
I believe this is the key in identifying the involvement of UFO activity as the most probable cause.

It may well be the Key. Time may tell. As you are probably aware more and more information is coming out of the former USSR. Also more and more unexplained events seem to be happening around the World, with some frequency now.

[sarapuk]

Maybe its time to delve further into the Extraterestrial theory now that so many other theories have gotten no where and especially after the latest Authority investigation if that is what it was  !  ?

[spotterroe]

I am in agreement with your referencing cattle mutilations as I said in reply to the more recent topic you launched.

Any one who has a different theory has to address how theirs can explain how Lyudmila Dubinina lost her tongue and her eyes. If their theory can not explain this then it needs to be rejected automatically.

[RidgeWatcher]

Hello Forum,

I live close to Eastern Oregon and it is the first place that I have lived where there is an "Urban Myth", of sorts, regarding cattle mutilations. I have heard that it is actually the government out in the isolated locations that will drop in stealthily and surgically remove bovine cow tissues, for study. Sometimes pre-mortem and sometimes post-mortem in the field. This is done to hide the fact that they have been randomly testing for "wasting disease" in the native hooved mammals such as deer, moose and elk. This is basically the wild animal form of the prion disease called Creuztfeldt-Jacob Disease or more vernacularly Mad Cow Disease.

I am not discounting any theories to be clear. Again, I lived in Arizona, I know what I saw and I know what I believe, however unscientific it was. But I did want to add this because it was the first time I heard this from people who actually grew up, own and run ranches.

[sparrow]

Hello Ridge Watcher.

Where did you hear about the cattle mutilations?  Where did you hear that the government was involved?  Why not just ask the ranchers if they could test a cow here and there and also offer to pay for it?

I have lived in eastern Oregon all my life and I know that quite some time ago mutilations were definitely heard of and , at around the same time, there were apparently reports of UFOs. I even heard at the time that they were suspicious of a satanic cult?

I am not sure what to think of UFOs but I do believe there are things that we do not really understand, let alone, can explain.

[Nigel Evans]

Lyudmila lost her eyes, tongue, lips and part of her left cheek which are all classic cattle mutilation signs. However she did not lose her blood, genitals, anus etc which are also classic signs. Also she was slowly decomposing and facing upstream into a torrent of water carrying vegetation debris when found which could probably strip your eye sockets in a couple of days. Alexander's and Lyudmila's autopsies noted unusual mobility of the throat which favours tissue damage of the tongue muscle at the event.
So imo her injuries are curious but not conclusive.

[sarapuk]

I am in agreement with your referencing cattle mutilations as I said in reply to the more recent topic you launched.

Any one who has a different theory has to address how theirs can explain how Lyudmila Dubinina lost her tongue and her eyes. If their theory can not explain this then it needs to be rejected automatically.

Yes the key to this whole mystery may be with the extraordinary injuries to Lyudmila Dubinina. Especially the missing eyes and tongue. Many investigators believe that the missing eyes and tongue were due to natural causes. The Russian Authorities have said similar. But if that was the case then we should have seen much more damage to her head and other parts of her body.