December 10, 2019, 02:39:21 PM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Physiology and Physics of Death  (Read 3616 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

January 07, 2019, 07:13:28 AM
Reply #30
Online

Nigel Evans


Given the close proximity of such a device wouldn’t there be scorch marks and damage to soft tissue?  Also, evidence in the snow of the device, metal fragments etc?

What if the blast came from much further away?
Well the luxury you have with ball lightning is that as no one knows how it explodes (or even why?) it could be made to fit any profile, very local but subsonic and with no flash burns. If you went up in a microlight and were next to a lightning bolt the resultant thunder clap would be powerful but subsonic?

The injury profile is that two people got it very bad, others (like Rustem) much less (which assumes of course it's from the same event). Presumably a more distant, more powerful blast would be more equal in it's damage? Also there would have to be tree damage?
Personally i think Lyudmila's one rib pushed into the heart is difficult to explain from a blast? Much more easy to explain as impact? Unless the blast is throwing her against something pointed.
I'm getting into the idea that they fell into the ravine perhaps down a snowbank that focused the landing point. I've always argued that this is completely against the injury profile (no limb injuries) but if they fell without conscious control then it starts to make sense. Imagine being on top of a one storey building like a bungalow with the roof covered in ice with a group of people who follow you down one after the other. Now imagine everyone is blindfolded so they can't react. Now you slide down the roof and land on a girl's chest. Then someone lands on you. The girl and you are in say snow a metre deep. Impacts to the arms and legs just push the limb deeper into the snow but the torso doesn't move down so easily and the head is strongly attached to the torso (unlike the limbs which can also rotate). So the first ones down the slide receive the worst injuries with the last ones just picking up bruises.
The ravine could have been very dark.... and as previously argued at least one nitrogen oxide intoxicates and heavier than air gases would collect in the ravine. Also warm gases including air could make the snow unstable causing a group of people walking single file to fall as a group one after the other perhaps..

January 07, 2019, 07:16:55 AM
Reply #31
Online

Nigel Evans


There seems to something not quite right about the available information.  Pathology says blast wave but no shrapnel or scorch marks. Histology says no cellular reaction. So if it wasn’t snow pressure, or a fall or an impact from some object and it was a blast wave then was it a large blast from something quite far away but big, that killed them quickly thus preventing time for a cellular reaction?
Pathology says high energy, like a blast or an impact from an automobile?

January 07, 2019, 02:22:40 PM
Reply #32
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
The effects of nearby explosions are more complex than distant explosions.
A distant explosion forms a flat impulse plane that races invisibly at supersonic speed across the air. If you are 1000 or 1200 meters from the blast, it makes almost no difference in the nature of its effects.
But an explosion up close, the explosion acts as a point source of energy dispersion.    As a nearby blast rushes by a hollow cylinder like the human chest, it pushes inward at the side of first contact, then racing past squeezes the sides, and finally the back is pushed inward, and the cylinder experiences a nearly symmetrical crushing force. Remember, explosion blast waves are supersonic, >330 mm/ msec. That's passing across the width of the human chest in a millisecond or two. The US equivalent,CompB6, blasts at 7m/msec or so. The front of the chest hasn't even started to move inward from the blast in 1 msec. The Sadovsky formulas are used in blast physics. Ironically, some of the institute graduates who died on Kholat Syakl were likely skilled in this area.
In more detail, the nearby blast also spreads the surface where it first contacts - a "tearing-apart" force. Then, when the following negative pressure wave hits, it gathers together -"pinches in" the surface at the point of initial contact.
What if your head is next to the blast?  Ask poor Tibo, his skull was wrecked right where the pressure first hit it, like a pane of bulletproof glass struck by a rifle round.  The others had their chests torn up. The only compelling force that efficiently explains the data is a nearby explosion.
______
The Mathematics Of Blowing Stuff Up
In order to make numerical assertions, it's worthwhile to use cited work in the literature.  This is not to seem snooty; rather the opposite, it's to be humble enough to show sources.
My first well-connected source is Influence Of Dimensional Proportions Of Cylindrical Explosive On Resulting Blast Wave, Robert Panowicz, Michał Trypolin, Marcin Konarzewsk, Journal of KONES Powertrain and Transport, Vol. 23, No. 4 2016  It mentions what has been known about explosions, that the effects depend only on energy and distance.  It cites Sadovsky, who seems to have written the definitive work on explosions: Sadovsky, M.A., Mechanical effects of air shockwaves from explosions according to experiments, in: Geophysics and Physics of Explosion (ed. M.A. Sadovsky), Nauka Press, Moscow 2004
Panowicz et al. offer a discussion of point-source blasts, or "a nearby explosion," which, I've suggested, was the cause of the wreckage in the den and upon the poor trekkers.
Quote
In the point detonation model approximation, the detonation process is not considered. It is only assumed that, in the initial time, in the small part of the volume, an emanation of energy occurs. The assumptions and conclusions regarding this model are presented in the studies of Taylor, Sedov and von Neumann, who developed it independently. This model was then further developed by, among others, Staniukowicz.


If any one cares to study the various types of BLAST INJURY throughout the history of weapons I doubt they will find any injuries like those on the Dyatlov bodies in the Ravine. And certainly not without any material remains from those weapons.
DB

January 07, 2019, 03:51:43 PM
Reply #33
Online

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
There seems to something not quite right about the available information.  Pathology says blast wave but no shrapnel or scorch marks. Histology says no cellular reaction. So if it wasn’t snow pressure, or a fall or an impact from some object and it was a blast wave then was it a large blast from something quite far away but big, that killed them quickly thus preventing time for a cellular reaction?
Pathology says high energy, like a blast or an impact from an automobile?

If it was an impact against a hard round object shouldn't there be damage to the external chest tissues, some kind of bruising?

If it was a blast and they lived for some time afterward why no cellular reaction?  You're probably right that it needs more expert knowledge to explain?

January 07, 2019, 04:00:12 PM
Reply #34
Online

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Given the close proximity of such a device wouldn’t there be scorch marks and damage to soft tissue?  Also, evidence in the snow of the device, metal fragments etc?

What if the blast came from much further away?
Well the luxury you have with ball lightning is that as no one knows how it explodes (or even why?) it could be made to fit any profile, very local but subsonic and with no flash burns. If you went up in a microlight and were next to a lightning bolt the resultant thunder clap would be powerful but subsonic?

The injury profile is that two people got it very bad, others (like Rustem) much less (which assumes of course it's from the same event). Presumably a more distant, more powerful blast would be more equal in it's damage? Also there would have to be tree damage?
Personally i think Lyudmila's one rib pushed into the heart is difficult to explain from a blast? Much more easy to explain as impact? Unless the blast is throwing her against something pointed.
I'm getting into the idea that they fell into the ravine perhaps down a snowbank that focused the landing point. I've always argued that this is completely against the injury profile (no limb injuries) but if they fell without conscious control then it starts to make sense. Imagine being on top of a one storey building like a bungalow with the roof covered in ice with a group of people who follow you down one after the other. Now imagine everyone is blindfolded so they can't react. Now you slide down the roof and land on a girl's chest. Then someone lands on you. The girl and you are in say snow a metre deep. Impacts to the arms and legs just push the limb deeper into the snow but the torso doesn't move down so easily and the head is strongly attached to the torso (unlike the limbs which can also rotate). So the first ones down the slide receive the worst injuries with the last ones just picking up bruises.
The ravine could have been very dark.... and as previously argued at least one nitrogen oxide intoxicates and heavier than air gases would collect in the ravine. Also warm gases including air could make the snow unstable causing a group of people walking single file to fall as a group one after the other perhaps..

The luxury with ball lightning is also a bit of a problem too because you can't make any substantiated conclusions with something we don't understand well.

In terms of a fall, I don't think they would need to be walking single file.  They may have been moving together in a line supporting or helping others who were struggling individuals.  Oneofnthe things that I was thinking is that the ravine is prone to 15 foot snow drifts.  Could it have been possible that they walked over the top of a drift and it give way.  Or they just could have fallen.  The chances are they still could have landed on top of each other.  As I stated before a force of about 2 tonnes over 15cm for about a fall of 5 metres onto a flat surface.  It's a large force but don't know if it's enough?

January 07, 2019, 04:10:46 PM
Reply #35
Online

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
The effects of nearby explosions are more complex than distant explosions.
A distant explosion forms a flat impulse plane that races invisibly at supersonic speed across the air. If you are 1000 or 1200 meters from the blast, it makes almost no difference in the nature of its effects.
But an explosion up close, the explosion acts as a point source of energy dispersion.    As a nearby blast rushes by a hollow cylinder like the human chest, it pushes inward at the side of first contact, then racing past squeezes the sides, and finally the back is pushed inward, and the cylinder experiences a nearly symmetrical crushing force. Remember, explosion blast waves are supersonic, >330 mm/ msec. That's passing across the width of the human chest in a millisecond or two. The US equivalent,CompB6, blasts at 7m/msec or so. The front of the chest hasn't even started to move inward from the blast in 1 msec. The Sadovsky formulas are used in blast physics. Ironically, some of the institute graduates who died on Kholat Syakl were likely skilled in this area.
In more detail, the nearby blast also spreads the surface where it first contacts - a "tearing-apart" force. Then, when the following negative pressure wave hits, it gathers together -"pinches in" the surface at the point of initial contact.
What if your head is next to the blast?  Ask poor Tibo, his skull was wrecked right where the pressure first hit it, like a pane of bulletproof glass struck by a rifle round.  The others had their chests torn up. The only compelling force that efficiently explains the data is a nearby explosion.
______
The Mathematics Of Blowing Stuff Up
In order to make numerical assertions, it's worthwhile to use cited work in the literature.  This is not to seem snooty; rather the opposite, it's to be humble enough to show sources.
My first well-connected source is Influence Of Dimensional Proportions Of Cylindrical Explosive On Resulting Blast Wave, Robert Panowicz, Michał Trypolin, Marcin Konarzewsk, Journal of KONES Powertrain and Transport, Vol. 23, No. 4 2016  It mentions what has been known about explosions, that the effects depend only on energy and distance.  It cites Sadovsky, who seems to have written the definitive work on explosions: Sadovsky, M.A., Mechanical effects of air shockwaves from explosions according to experiments, in: Geophysics and Physics of Explosion (ed. M.A. Sadovsky), Nauka Press, Moscow 2004
Panowicz et al. offer a discussion of point-source blasts, or "a nearby explosion," which, I've suggested, was the cause of the wreckage in the den and upon the poor trekkers.
Quote
In the point detonation model approximation, the detonation process is not considered. It is only assumed that, in the initial time, in the small part of the volume, an emanation of energy occurs. The assumptions and conclusions regarding this model are presented in the studies of Taylor, Sedov and von Neumann, who developed it independently. This model was then further developed by, among others, Staniukowicz.

It's true that if you look at the injuries and histology report it just seems like their chest were crushed as if some heavy weight were slowly lowered over the area of their chests as to not cause any tissue damage externally.  Like they were crushed in a big fat vice.  That's why I am trying to understand if the snow pressure option is realistic.

One thing that could have caused the injuries is a large wind blast that threw them, and dropped them some distance onto a flattish surface or snow.  I don't think this couldnhavenhappened if they were in the ravine though as the ravine itself would afford some protection.  So if it was something like that it would have happened further up the slope or possibly even at the cedar tree.


If any one cares to study the various types of BLAST INJURY throughout the history of weapons I doubt they will find any injuries like those on the Dyatlov bodies in the Ravine. And certainly not without any material remains from those weapons.

January 07, 2019, 10:43:48 PM
Reply #36
Offline

Monika


Given the close proximity of such a device wouldn’t there be scorch marks and damage to soft tissue?  Also, evidence in the snow of the device, metal fragments etc?

What if the blast came from much further away?
Well the luxury you have with ball lightning is that as no one knows how it explodes (or even why?) it could be made to fit any profile, very local but subsonic and with no flash burns. If you went up in a microlight and were next to a lightning bolt the resultant thunder clap would be powerful but subsonic?

The injury profile is that two people got it very bad, others (like Rustem) much less (which assumes of course it's from the same event). Presumably a more distant, more powerful blast would be more equal in it's damage? Also there would have to be tree damage?
Personally i think Lyudmila's one rib pushed into the heart is difficult to explain from a blast? Much more easy to explain as impact? Unless the blast is throwing her against something pointed.
I'm getting into the idea that they fell into the ravine perhaps down a snowbank that focused the landing point. I've always argued that this is completely against the injury profile (no limb injuries) but if they fell without conscious control then it starts to make sense. Imagine being on top of a one storey building like a bungalow with the roof covered in ice with a group of people who follow you down one after the other. Now imagine everyone is blindfolded so they can't react. Now you slide down the roof and land on a girl's chest. Then someone lands on you. The girl and you are in say snow a metre deep. Impacts to the arms and legs just push the limb deeper into the snow but the torso doesn't move down so easily and the head is strongly attached to the torso (unlike the limbs which can also rotate). So the first ones down the slide receive the worst injuries with the last ones just picking up bruises.
The ravine could have been very dark.... and as previously argued at least one nitrogen oxide intoxicates and heavier than air gases would collect in the ravine. Also warm gases including air could make the snow unstable causing a group of people walking single file to fall as a group one after the other perhaps..

The luxury with ball lightning is also a bit of a problem too because you can't make any substantiated conclusions with something we don't understand well.

In terms of a fall, I don't think they would need to be walking single file.  They may have been moving together in a line supporting or helping others who were struggling individuals.  Oneofnthe things that I was thinking is that the ravine is prone to 15 foot snow drifts.  Could it have been possible that they walked over the top of a drift and it give way.  Or they just could have fallen.  The chances are they still could have landed on top of each other.  As I stated before a force of about 2 tonnes over 15cm for about a fall of 5 metres onto a flat surface.  It's a large force but don't know if it's enough?

But how it is possible that the camera on Zolotarev neck was intact?
After falling into the ravine or when heavy layer of snow dropped on them or after blast wave.. .ribs were destructed but camera not???

January 07, 2019, 11:43:04 PM
Reply #37
Online

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
But how it is possible that the camera on Zolotarev neck was intact?
After falling into the ravine or when heavy layer of snow dropped on them or after blast wave.. .ribs were destructed but camera not??
?

It’s a good question. There doesn’t appear to be much information on the condition of the camera. If it fell and hit something hard then should be some dents or scratches. It may have not have hit anything hard though. Also, for a blast because it is small and hard and does not contain lots of air it could probably take more force than a thorax.  Would be useful to have more information on the condition of the camera.

January 08, 2019, 03:08:41 PM
Reply #38
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Quoted ;
[[  It's true that if you look at the injuries and histology report it just seems like their chest were crushed as if some heavy weight were slowly lowered over the area of their chests as to not cause any tissue damage externally.  Like they were crushed in a big fat vice.  That's why I am trying to understand if the snow pressure option is realistic.
One thing that could have caused the injuries is a large wind blast that threw them, and dropped them some distance onto a flattish surface or snow.  I don't think this couldnhavenhappened if they were in the ravine though as the ravine itself would afford some protection.  So if it was something like that it would have happened further up the slope or possibly even at the cedar tree.  ]]


Yes it could be said that the injuries to Ravine Bodies were of a crushing type that did not damage the chest wall ie skin and muscle. I have read many reports carried out by Alpine Investigators into snow injuries and it is highly unlikely that snow was responsible for the Dyatlov Crushing Effect. Also if some of the Dyatlov Group had have been blown away by a wind blast we should also expect damage to chest wall etc, of which there was none.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2019, 04:15:00 PM by sarapuk »
DB