Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning

[Nigel Evans]

Fyi, this thread was created by Loose Cannon by copying several posts from another thread. So the thread title and the OP is not of my choosing.

Starts below :-

There's a good chance the solution is hidden in a secret archive and very few people have seen it's contents. One who did, Ivanov a professional criminal investigator maintained that "it must have been the fire orbs".

[Loose}{Cannon]

There's a good chance the solution is hidden in a secret archive and very few people have seen it's contents

Wild speculation

One who did, Ivanov a professional criminal investigator maintained that "it must have been the fire orbs".

So, in the first sentence you make an assertion thats completely unsubstantiated, and in the second sentence you use it as a fact.  WEIRD!

The real problem is......  Your boy Ivanov was a crayon-eating window-licker that belonged on a short bus. 

[Nigel Evans]

Hey Loose Cannon me old sparring partner :-

"Wild speculation"
When I reported about my discoveries, the fire orbs and radioactivity, to A.F. Yeshtokin, he was very categorical in his orders: absolutely everything related to the must be made secret, classified, sealed, sent to special archives and forgotten. Am I to explain that orders had to be and were executed right off?

****, Keith. Journey to Dyatlov Pass: An Explanation of the Mystery (p. 144). Keith ****. Kindle Edition.


"Ivanov a professional criminal investigator maintained that "it must have been the fire orbs".

It is not my purpose to find excuses for my actions on classifying information about the Fire Orbs phenomena and death of a big group of people. I asked the correspondent to publish my apologies to relatives of the deceased for perversion and concealment of the truth, and, because no room was found for these in four newspaper issues, I apologize in the present article to relatives of the deceased, particularly the families of Dubinina, Thibeaux-Brignolle, Zolotarev, for distortion of the truth. At the time I tried to do my best, but the situation in the country, as lawyers would define it, was one of an “overwhelming force”, and only on our days an opportunity has appeared to overcome this force. And, again, getting back to the Fire Orbs. They did and do exist. We only want to keep information of their sightings open, and try to understand and study their nature. The majority of onlookers note their peaceful behaviour, but, as you see, fatalities also occur. Something or someone had wanted to either frighten, or punish the people, or demonstrate their strength – and they did it, killing three people. I know the circumstances of the event in detail and can definitely assert that only those who piloted those orbs know all. But had there been “human beings” inside, and are they always present there, no one knows yet.

****, Keith. Journey to Dyatlov Pass: An Explanation of the Mystery (pp. 145-146). Keith ****. Kindle Edition.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Books are bias and Ivanov was a raging idiot.

[Nigel Evans]

I'd have to complain about the editing here. You've yanked a series of posts out of one thread and put them in this one losing the context of the previous thread and creating a strange conversation, with a strange proposition here in this one. Not good. Copying these posts from the other thread is ok, but cutting them out is not.

[Nigel Evans]

The "biased book" is reporting an interview Ivanov gave translated from Russian into English. His superior was interviewed at the age of 94 and confirmed that the case was covered up.

Barristers are many things but rarely idiots.

[Loose}{Cannon]

From now on I will be more aggressive in regards to splitting off-topic posts. 

Enjoy

[Nigel Evans]

THIS POST HAS BEEN REMOVED

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^^^^^^^^^^^^   RED LINE  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


DO NOT ATTACK THE STAFF FOR SIMPLY DOING THEIR JOB..... 

[Loose}{Cannon]

#1

This entire case was squirreled away and secret for many years. 

#2

When were the case files released exactly, and when was the interview given? 

[Nigel Evans]

Just for the record this thread is listed as "Started by Nigel Evans on November 03, 2018, 10:11:53 AM "

This is not true, this thread was started by Loose Cannon.

[Loose}{Cannon]

There is nothing personal about a split topic.  This is simply split from another thread.....   If you want a dif title,  edit the OP. 

[Nigel Evans]

Why don't you edit it as it's your thread?

[Loose}{Cannon]

Why don't you edit it as it's your thread?

Do what?

Its your topic of discussion.... your posts.  I didn't post under your name. If I did, you would see my edit details at the bottom.  Its called splitting a topic.  This isn't rocket science, nor is it worthwhile complaining about. 

Your getting off-topic...  again. 

[sarapuk]

So Ivanov believed in ORBS.  But he doesnt actually say BALL LIGHTNING.  Also, it seems that then as now there is no certainty that those things seen in the sky were Ball lightning.

[Loose}{Cannon]

When I hear the name  'Ivanov', I think of THE person that is responsible for the worst investigation known to mankind.   Why am I not surprised his failure as an investigator and inability to conduct a proper and thorough investigation lead to him making excuses later in life?   It ranks up there with 'the dog ate my homework'. 

Its a canard.... a farce, made by a pathetic and otherwise incompetent pompus azz that couldn't solve his way out of a wet paper bag.

Its either that, or he was part of a cover-up in which I would have to select a different set of colorful characterizations for.

[Nigel Evans]

"So Ivanov believed in ORBS.  But he doesnt actually say BALL LIGHTNING.  Also, it seems that then as now there is no certainty that those things seen in the sky were Ball lightning."
Correct, ball lightning or more correctly electro magnetic phenomena is a good explanation for the orbs. It's clear in his interview that he considered them to be "piloted" hence he's thinking of human or non human involvement. However i prefer a natural explanation which is provided by historical reports, particularly wrt rollers.

[Nigel Evans]

Okishev was Ivanov's superior :-

Proshkin: - How long had Ivanov worked as a criminal prosecutor?
Okishev: - Since early 1954, from the moment this position was created.
Proshkin: - Was he a good investigator?
Okishev: - I should say, excellent. Meticulous and very thorough.

[Nigel Evans]

.

[Nigel Evans]

When I hear the name  'Ivanov', I think of THE person that is responsible for the worst investigation known to mankind.   Why am I not surprised his failure as an investigator and inability to conduct a proper and thorough investigation lead to him making excuses later in life?   It ranks up there with 'the dog ate my homework'. 

You're just not getting it, yes the official report details the worse investigation ever but that's not the real investigation is it? The official report is just lots of pointless stuff to try and placate the families with all the important details, photos etc removed.

[Loose}{Cannon]

ball lightning or more correctly electro magnetic phenomena

Last I looked, the best scientist in the world still do not know what exactly ball lightning is and ghere are hundreds of explanations.  Are you simply plucking out tue one that will best fit your hypothesis?

the official report details the worse investigation ever but that's not the real investigation is it? The official report is just lots of pointless stuff to try and placate the families with all the important details, photos etc removed

.

You know as well as anyone else, there is absolutely ZERO proof to backup any such claim.  I get the impression you would only have to rewrite the investigation if you need it to fit a particular narrative. 

[Nigel Evans]

Last I looked, the best scientist in the world still do not know what exactly ball lightning is and ghere are hundreds of explanations. 
Are you simply plucking out tue one that will best fit your hypothesis?

Just because a proper understanding of these phenomena belongs to the science of the future doesn't make them less real. We still don't properly understand conventional lightning but we all know it's real and can kill. The difference is in the frequency of these events. No one doubts lightning exists because they've experienced it. Still there are thousands of BL reports (going back in time). From memory 5000 or so.

You know as well as anyone else, there is absolutely ZERO proof to backup any such claim.  I get the impression you would only have to rewrite the investigation if you need it to fit a particular narrative.

Well it wouldn't be a very good coverup if there was proof of the coverup would it? Jeez. The only "proof" we have is the interviews with Ivanov and his boss and that the official report has been restitched.

You're just looking down the wrong end of the telescope. Whatever evidence there is for the cause of the DPI has been removed from the report. All we have is Ivanov's interview and he repeats the term "fire orbs". Where do you think he gets this from? A comic he read?

[sarapuk]

I think that due to the unusual nature of this Dyatlov Mystery, investigators can be excused if they change their mind or even make mistakes. It doesnt mean that they are incompetent. Same with us modern day investigators, we have the advanced technology but we dont have the benefit of the evidence available at the time of the event or events. So be it with the ORBS. Still no explanation from scientists either.

[Nigel Evans]

Still no explanation from scientists either.

Not so, the problem is that there are multiple theories for BL but as yet no experimental proof.

This is a recent theory
https://www.nature.com/articles/srep28263
Experiments are required to verify our theory. First, forming a microwave bubble in laboratory will need hundreds of gigawatt microwave, which is one order of magnitude higher than the manmade sources.

Just in case people aren't familiar with "order of magnitude" it means ten times as much. N.B. and that's for just creating a small one.

[sarapuk]

Yes there are lots of THEORIES but still no ANSWER.

[Nigel Evans]

Yes there are lots of THEORIES but still no ANSWER.

Yes this guy describes it as the shame of physics - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ball-Lightning-Physics-electricity-required/dp/1511669640
I haven't read his book but i don't see how a theory of pure light can explain the mechanical energy of rollers...

[Loose}{Cannon]

First you claim to categorically know exactly what ball lightning is.....

Correct, ball lightning or more correctly electro magnetic phenomena is a good explanation for the orbs.

Then you admit nobody knows what BL is......

We still don't properly understand conventional lightning but we all know it's real and can kill.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Just because a proper understanding of these phenomena belongs to the science of the future doesn't make them less real

I haven't seen anyone here deny the existence of BL.   

It's clear in his interview that he considered them to be "piloted"

Piloted orbs........   Your boy was dancing around his theory by not coming out and stating what he really wanted to say.  Perhaps afraid of looking like a baffoon. 

[Loose}{Cannon]

You're just looking down the wrong end of the telescope

.

Am I?   Im not the one that explains EVERYTHING as caused by a fantastical entity.  I'm convinced that if one of the DP group farted in that tent that night, your explanation would be.......piloted fireball.  Lets talk about tunnel-vision.     

[Loose}{Cannon]

Whatever evidence there is for the cause of the DPI has been removed from the report.

More wild speculation you somehow portray as fact.   

All we have is Ivanov's interview and he repeats the term "fire orbs". Where do you think he gets this from? A comic he read?

Actually....   he gets it from here, which after the case files were release was NO LONGER SECTRET INFORMATION.

https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-260?rbid=17743

Sheet 260

Prodanov, Vishnevskiy, 31.03.59, at 9.30 local time.
31.3 04oo Meshcheryakov who was on watch noticed in the southeast direction a large fire ring, which for 20 minutes moved towards us, hiding behind height 880.
Before hiding behind the horizon from the center of the ring appeared a star, which gradually increased to the size of the moon, began to fall down separating from the ring.
This unusual phenomenon was observed by all the personnel raised in alarm.
We ask you to explain this phenomenon and if it is safe, since under the circumstances it left us with anxiety.

Avenburg Potapov Sogrin

Which is likely why they felt compelled to say this in a radio transmission. 

https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-136-198?rbid=17743

The reason could be some kind of extreme natural phenomenon or the flight of a meteorological rocket that was seen on 1/II in Ivdel and on 17/II by Karelin's group

 

Another witness.....

https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-227?rbid=17743

PIGUZOVA REPORT
Dyatlov Pass: Document in RussianRussian
Sheet 227

17 III To Tempalov from K. Piguzov
16. III.59
To the Chief of the Ivdel Police Station 17. II. 59, 6 h. 50 m. local time in the sky appeared not unnatural phenomenon. Moving star with a tail. The tail looked like dense cirrus clouds. Then the star was freed from the tail, became brighter than the stars and flew away. It gradually began to swell, forming a large ball, enveloped in a haze. Then inside this ball the star caught fire, from which first a crescent was formed, then a small ball formed, not so bright. The big ball gradually began to fade, became like a blurry spot. At 7 h. 05 m. it disappeared altogether. A star moved from the south to the northeast

.


And may I remind everyone how stupid these guys that found the tent/bodies were....  more radio transmissions.

№1712 27/2

To Sulman

Urgent. Right after the descend we dug out and identified the four bodies found as Dyatlov Zolotaryov Krivanischenko Kolmogorova the deceast were thrown out of the tent by a hurricane, some without boots or pants jackets. The direction of the hurricane was northeast-east so all of them are on one line from the discovered tent the furthest approximately two kilometers from the tent. In the mouth of the creek which flows into the Lozva river we found remains of a fire with several charred logs. Nearest Kolmogorova has a broken head examination will continue tomorrow we will set up a camp in the valley of Auspiya river so we won't disturb the traces of the accident can't get in contact with Akselrod I think they have to join us.

Don't patronize me Nigel....  I didn't start looking at this incident yesterday. 

[Loose}{Cannon]

One more thing...

Okishev was Ivanov's superior :-

Proshkin: - How long had Ivanov worked as a criminal prosecutor?
Okishev: - Since early 1954, from the moment this position was created.
Proshkin: - Was he a good investigator?
Okishev: - I should say, excellent. Meticulous and very thorough.

What you think he would say???    "no, I like to have dumbasses below me because it makes me look like a stud"?

I have read numerous more recent reports from witnesses specific stating Ivanov was an empty vessel while at the scene.  As in, not interested, a city folk not fond of standing out in the cold wilderness away from his fireplace and vodka.  The lack of documentation both written and photography is a testimony to his incompetence.