Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally

[sarapuk]

I suppose there is only one way that we will ever find out and that is if someone analyses tree ring samples and soil core samples for strontium 90.

But if this particular theory was even remotely considered by the Authorities then we should have expected them to have done that a long time ago  !  ? 

[Ryan]

While Carbon 14 is a beta emitter, it emits very low energy (soft) betas. These typically cannot penetrate the metal walls of most Geiger tubes. The lab report in the case files on pages 371-377 mentioned use of what I believe are Soviet STS-6 Geiger tubes. A description of them is available at http://www.sovtube.com/x-ray-and-geiger-tubes/747-sts-6-1.html. They are listed as sensitive to gamma and hard beta. I don't believe soft beta from Carbon 14 could be counted with them.

[Nigel Evans]

While Carbon 14 is a beta emitter, it emits very low energy (soft) betas. These typically cannot penetrate the metal walls of most Geiger tubes. The lab report in the case files on pages 371-377 mentioned use of what I believe are Soviet STS-6 Geiger tubes. A description of them is available at http://www.sovtube.com/x-ray-and-geiger-tubes/747-sts-6-1.html. They are listed as sensitive to gamma and hard beta. I don't believe soft beta from Carbon 14 could be counted with them.

Hi there, would you know if potassium 40 emits hard beta and hence would be detected by this equipment?

[sarapuk]

While Carbon 14 is a beta emitter, it emits very low energy (soft) betas. These typically cannot penetrate the metal walls of most Geiger tubes. The lab report in the case files on pages 371-377 mentioned use of what I believe are Soviet STS-6 Geiger tubes. A description of them is available at http://www.sovtube.com/x-ray-and-geiger-tubes/747-sts-6-1.html. They are listed as sensitive to gamma and hard beta. I don't believe soft beta from Carbon 14 could be counted with them.

I know what you are getting at. I bought a Geiger counter a few years ago, the sort that was still being used at the Chernobyl Site. I was going to get an old Soviet Geiger Counter as well, but this one I have serves multiple purposes. The old Soviet ones were specifically designed for the event of a Nuclear War.

[Ryan]

Hi there, would you know if potassium 40 emits hard beta and hence would be detected by this equipment?

K-40 emits both beta and gamma. 89% of the time, it emits a beta. While the energy of the beta emitted during each decay is variable, it's very likely it will be a hard beta that could be detected by a Geiger tube. The other 11% of the time, K-40 will emit a 1.46 MeV gamma.

K-40 can be detected by the instruments used by the dosimetry lab. The report mentions that the counter used to measure the clothing samples had 4 STS-6 Geiger tubes. These can detect hard beta.

The samples from the hikers' bodies were measured with a "BFA-25 meter". I don't know what kind of detector that is. However, the lab burned to ash several tissue and bone samples from the 4 hikers found in the ravine, and while many of these were radioactive above background, the report concluded that this was due to K-40. They performed the same test on a person who died in a motor vehicle accident in Sverdlovsk, and the results were similar. So the parts of the hikers that they tested were about as radioactive as the average human. This also demonstrates that this "BFA-25" detector was indeed sensitive to K-40.

(Of note: The lab report showed no results from any of the hikers' lungs, so we do not know if they breathed in contaminated dust before their deaths.)

I'm curious why you are asking about K-40?

I recently saw a website identifying the isotope contaminating the hikers as K-40, but the website did not cite a source, and I'm guessing it was an error. Someone could have read the lab report, saw that it mentioned K-40, and jumped to the wrong conclusion. The lab report is clear that they did not determine the isotope(s) contaminating the hikers' clothing.

[Nigel Evans]

I'm curious why you are asking about K-40?
Because it can explain some of the results as normal.

Here's the report  :-

The four subjects were given numbers: No. 1: Kolevatov No. 2: Zolotariov No. 3: Tibeaux No. 4: Dubinina The results of the radiological investigation, recorded in the criminal case report, were as follows: Clothes examined: Brown sweater taken from body No. 4: 9900 decay per minute from 150 square centimetres. Lowest part of the long johns: 5000 decay per minute from 150 square centimetres. Part of the sweater from body No. 1: 5600 decay per minute from 150 square centimetres. Upon rinsing the clothes, it was shown that contamination could be decreased by between thirty and sixty percent. The rinse was conducted in a standard test using cold running water for three hours. Conclusions: The materials examined contained radioactive traces within normal limits of the natural content for the potassium 40 isotope. Examined separately, samples of the clothes contained several higher than normal quantities of radioactive compounds that are beta emitters. It was confirmed, from tests involving rinsing with water, that the radioactive substances found displayed a tendency to be reduced by such a test. Thus their presence proves that they were not caused by a neutron stream or by the incidence of induced radioactivity, but by the contamination of radioactive beta particles. Additional questions the investigator asked Levashov were as follows: Question: Could the clothes be contaminated above the normal level by normal circumstances without having been in the presence of a radioactive-contaminated place? Answer: No Question: Were the samples examined by you contaminated? Answer: As mentioned in the conclusion, there is contamination by a radioactive substance or substances. Beta emitters were found on certain separately-sampled areas from the samples I received. For example, the sample from body no. 4 (brown sweater), at the moment of examination, had a decay rate of 9900 beta particles per minute for 150 square centimetres. After rinsing, it displayed 5200 decays of beta particles per minute from 150 sq cm. Normally, contamination of beta particles from 150 sq cm should not exceed 5000 before rinsing. After rinsing it would be expected to find a normal level equivalent to the natural base level, which is provided by natural cosmic radiation for all people in a particular place. This is the normal rule for those who work with radioactive materials. From body No. 1, the sweater yielded a display of 5600 particles per minute before rinsing, falling to 2700 particles per minute after rinsing. In your data it’s indicated that, before they were sent to us, all of these objects had been in running water for quite some time, which means they had already been rinsed. Question: Can we conclude that the clothes were contaminated by radioactive dust? Answer: Yes. Contaminated by radioactive dust which fell down from the atmosphere, or these clothes were contaminated while working with radioactive substances, or via contact. This particular contamination exceeds the normal level for people who work with radioactive substances. Question: What was the real degree of contamination of some objects considering that they were in running water for about 15 days? Answer: One can guess the contamination of some parts of the clothes was many times more. But we must also consider that the clothes could have been washed with differing degrees of intensity. May 29, 1959

Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (pp. 103- 106). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
So 5000 decays can be explained as background and 9900 as abnormal?

It occurs to me, could the clothing and running water combine to increase the decay level? The clothing acting as net capturing and concentrating the background level? E.g. water flowing perpendicular to the clothing would lower the level but water flowing in the direction of the weave / across folds increase it?

[sarapuk]

The following is taken from the Report ;

[[ Samples of solid biosubstrates and clothes combined in groups under Nos 1, 2, 3,4 were submitted to the radio-isotope laboratory of the Sverdlovsk sanitaryepidemic station and were analyzed for presence of radioactive materials.

The absence of appropriate instruments and conditions in the laboratory made it impossible to perform radiochemical and spectrometric analysis to determine the chemical structure of the emitter and its radiation energy.

Recalculation was performed on the B-2 installation in a lead house with a cassette counter STS-6 in the number of 4 pieces.

Radiometric measurements of solid biosubstrates were carried out at the B-2 facility (№ 2554) in a lead house with a BFA-25 meter.

Is it possible to consider that this clothing is contaminated with radioactive dust?
Answer: Yes, clothes are contaminated or radioactive dust dropped from the atmosphere, or this garment has been exposed to contamination when working with radioactive substances, or on contact. This pollution exceeds, as I have already indicated, the norm for persons working with radioactive substances. ]]


And My comments ;

Apparently there is talk of several scientists who were brought in to assist the search parties and they carried GEIGER COUNTERS. Lev Ivanov claims to have used a Geiger Counter and that it went crazy around the campsite. But we have no information as to the EXACT TYPE OF GEIGER COUNTER USED, as far as I know. What is very interesting however is that higher than normal levels of BETA PARTICLES were detected during the Laboratory Tests. And by the time of those tests over 2 months had passed since the Incident and we know that washing of the bodies at the Ravine could wash away plenty of PARTICLES. But why no ALPHA or GAMMA PARTICLES  !  ?  If Ivanov was correct and his Geiger Counter went crazy are we to believe it was just because of BETA PARTICLES  But then again what type of Geiger Counter was he using. If it was a Military one then this is extremely important for the Investigation, because a Soviet Military Geiger Counter would have been designed to detect the strong signals of Radiation from a Nuclear Explosion.  The Authorities must know the answer to that.

Just a quicky regarding Geiger Counter construction, which applies to the present as well as the past. The main part is the TUBE. Different Tubes can be used for different situations.  Important because you wouldnt want a Tube to become fully saturated or even a bit saturated as this would give false readings. Thats why we need to know THE EXACT TYPE OF GEIGER COUNTER used in the 1959 search.


 

[Star man]

The following is taken from the Report ;

[[ Samples of solid biosubstrates and clothes combined in groups under Nos 1, 2, 3,4 were submitted to the radio-isotope laboratory of the Sverdlovsk sanitaryepidemic station and were analyzed for presence of radioactive materials.

The absence of appropriate instruments and conditions in the laboratory made it impossible to perform radiochemical and spectrometric analysis to determine the chemical structure of the emitter and its radiation energy.

Recalculation was performed on the B-2 installation in a lead house with a cassette counter STS-6 in the number of 4 pieces.

Radiometric measurements of solid biosubstrates were carried out at the B-2 facility (№ 2554) in a lead house with a BFA-25 meter.

Is it possible to consider that this clothing is contaminated with radioactive dust?
Answer: Yes, clothes are contaminated or radioactive dust dropped from the atmosphere, or this garment has been exposed to contamination when working with radioactive substances, or on contact. This pollution exceeds, as I have already indicated, the norm for persons working with radioactive substances. ]]


And My comments ;

Apparently there is talk of several scientists who were brought in to assist the search parties and they carried GEIGER COUNTERS. Lev Ivanov claims to have used a Geiger Counter and that it went crazy around the campsite. But we have no information as to the EXACT TYPE OF GEIGER COUNTER USED, as far as I know. What is very interesting however is that higher than normal levels of BETA PARTICLES were detected during the Laboratory Tests. And by the time of those tests over 2 months had passed since the Incident and we know that washing of the bodies at the Ravine could wash away plenty of PARTICLES. But why no ALPHA or GAMMA PARTICLES  !  ?  If Ivanov was correct and his Geiger Counter went crazy are we to believe it was just because of BETA PARTICLES  But then again what type of Geiger Counter was he using. If it was a Military one then this is extremely important for the Investigation, because a Soviet Military Geiger Counter would have been designed to detect the strong signals of Radiation from a Nuclear Explosion.  The Authorities must know the answer to that.

Just a quicky regarding Geiger Counter construction, which applies to the present as well as the past. The main part is the TUBE. Different Tubes can be used for different situations.  Important because you wouldnt want a Tube to become fully saturated or even a bit saturated as this would give false readings. Thats why we need to know THE EXACT TYPE OF GEIGER COUNTER used in the 1959 search.

Some very interesting points and info.

But even if we know what type of Geiger counter they had (which I agree is a good question) why did they have them in the first place?  Also, why would Yuris K and Kolevatov take their hiking clothes to work with them?  Did they get this contaminatin from their jobs, and then somehow carry it home and on to this expedition?  Unlikely.

Also the anecdotal evidence that Ivanov's Geiger counter went crazy at the camp site?  If this is true it did not come from their jobs.

[Ryan]

So 5000 decays can be explained as background and 9900 as abnormal?

This is a common misconception I've seen about the report.

In the report, beta contamination on surfaces is measured as decays per minute per 150 square centimeters. The 5000 number is NOT the background. It is a maximum occupational contamination limit. In other words, if you worked at a Soviet nuclear facility, and at the end of the day your clothes had 6000 decays per min per 150 cm^2, that would be considered an unacceptable problem.

But that does NOT mean that, say, ending your shift with 4000 on your clothes is in any way normal! It still means your clothing is contaminated. The contamination is just not at a level that would be unacceptable for a nuclear worker. Also, that nuclear worker will not be wearing clothing contaminated at that level home! If there is a potential of contamination, then they're going to change into different clothing for their shift.

But we're talking about hikers in the woods, not workers at a nuclear facility. Numbers substantially >0 but <5000 still mean contamination has occurred, and it's highly unusual. The fact that it doesn't exceed the standards for a nuclear worker doesn't mean it should be considered normal, or that it should be considered background. (Background has already been subtracted, so anything >0 is above background.)

This means that all 9 clothing samples tested, with at least one sample per hiker found in the ravine, were contaminated. It is NOT just Kolevatov's pants, the waistband of his sweater, and Dubinina's sweater that were contaminated.

[Nigel Evans]

So 5000 decays can be explained as background and 9900 as abnormal?

This is a common misconception I've seen about the report.

In the report, beta contamination on surfaces is measured as decays per minute per 150 square centimeters. The 5000 number is NOT the background. It is a maximum occupational contamination limit. In other words, if you worked at a Soviet nuclear facility, and at the end of the day your clothes had 6000 decays per min per 150 cm^2, that would be considered an unacceptable problem.

But that does NOT mean that, say, ending your shift with 4000 on your clothes is in any way normal! It still means your clothing is contaminated. The contamination is just not at a level that would be unacceptable for a nuclear worker. Also, that nuclear worker will not be wearing clothing contaminated at that level home! If there is a potential of contamination, then they're going to change into different clothing for their shift.

But we're talking about hikers in the woods, not workers at a nuclear facility. Numbers substantially >0 but <5000 still mean contamination has occurred, and it's highly unusual. The fact that it doesn't exceed the standards for a nuclear worker doesn't mean it should be considered normal, or that it should be considered background. (Background has already been subtracted, so anything >0 is above background.)

This means that all 9 clothing samples tested, with at least one sample per hiker found in the ravine, were contaminated. It is NOT just Kolevatov's pants, the waistband of his sweater, and Dubinina's sweater that were contaminated.

Thanks for your reply, it's good to have your informed input.
So playing devil's advocate let me argue the case for natural contamination and hence hear your thoughts.

The water test demonstrated that in three hours of rinsing the contamination could be (roughly) halved. So if flowing water can dilute by mechanical action can it not also concentrate? And wrt the ravine is this not a likely place for such concentration, in the silt collected from a much larger surface area of the mountain?
Looking around for some evidence i've found this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_radioactivity#Sea_and_river_silt
"In one kilogram of soil, the potassium-40 amounts to an average 370 Bq of radiation, with a typical range of 100–700 Bq; the others each contribute some 25 Bq, with typical ranges of 10–50 Bq (7–50 Bq for the ²³²Th).^[1] Some soils may vary greatly from these norms.".

So i would have to contest your point that the background level has already been subtracted. The background level of the ravine silt is unknown? Indeed i would argue that the results are inconclusive without also measuring the silt underneath the bodies in order to properly determine the background level.

Also wrt to C14 being too soft to register on their equipment, the interview seems to question this :- 


"After rinsing it would be expected to find a normal level equivalent to the natural base level, which is provided by natural cosmic radiation for all people in a particular place. This is the normal rule for those who work with radioactive materials. From body No. 1, the sweater yielded a display of 5600 particles per minute before rinsing, falling to 2700 particles per minute after rinsing. In your data it’s indicated that, before they were sent to us, all of these objects had been in running water for quite some time, which means they had already been rinsed. Question: Can we conclude that the clothes were contaminated by radioactive dust? Answer: Yes. Contaminated by radioactive dust which fell down from the atmosphere,".
It seems that the responder to these questions is including C14?

[Ryan]

Nigel,

(Response 1/2)

Thanks for the compliment! I'm really enjoying this discussion and your responses.

First off, I think we're referring to different things when I mention background and background subtraction.

I'm talking about the naturally occurring radiation in the lab where the measurement was taken. The counts / min / 150 cm^2 number already has the naturally occurring background in the lab subtracted. Clean cloth would have a number equal to zero (with some small statistical variation.) Any radioactive silt (if it exists) from the ravine on the clothing is not considered background, it would not be subtracted, and it would elevate the number. But I'll talk about that in a future response.

All I'm saying is that any number substantially >0 is not normal, regardless of where it came from. I want to dispute the idea that 5000 is somehow background. It isn't. It is the upper end of an occupational exposure limit.

Regarding C-14, the interview questions do not directly answer it. The person is suggesting that radioactive dust in the air contaminated the clothing. Radioactive dust is typically what contaminates people in industrial environments.

But the report describes the hardware used to measure the contamination on the clothing: an array of four STS-6 Soviet Geiger tubes. I have found specifications for these. They are thin wall metal tubes. They are sensitive to hard (energetic) beta. An energetic electron generally can pass through the thin metal wall of the tube, ionize the gas inside, and produce a measured count.

C-14 produces soft betas. These are not going to penetrate the wall of the Geiger tube, so they won't register a count.

See http://www.upstate.edu/radiationsafety/procedures/c-14.php which says "A tiny drop of contamination from C-14 can be easily detected with a wipe test from a Liquid Scintillation Counter. Most Geiger Counters will not efficiently detect the presence of C-14.”

For further evidence, see http://lampes-et-tubes.info/rd/rd011.php?l=e which indicates that an STS-6 tube can detect beta radiation with Emax > 0.5 MeV. The site I linked above says the Emax of C-14 is 0.156 MeV. That's less than a third of the detection threshold stated in the tube specs.

So I'm fairly confident that C-14 is not the cause of the contamination on the clothing. The lab equipment they stated they used simply could not detect C-14.

[Star man]

So Strontium 90 has an decay energy of just over 0.5 MeV.  Not sure if this is max or average tbh.  So should be detected by the instrument used?

Were there any tests done on the first bodies found?

I doubt very much that the clothes would act to concentrate the activity of potassium ifrom the stream.  Potassium compounds are usually soluble.  Strontium on the other hand is much less soluble.

Ryan’s input into this aspect might be fundamental to determine if there was nuclear involvement.

[Ryan]

Nigel,

(Response 2/2)

This reply is more speculative. I'm not a geologist, hydrologist, or have any particular knowledge about fluid dynamics.

Your suggestion that the water could concentrate radioactive contamination is interesting, but it doesn't feel right to me. Let me propose a thought experiment.

Let's assume 1 kg of soil naturally contains 370 Bq of K-40. 1 Bq = 1 disintegration per second.

First, K-40 is also a gamma emitter. 11% of the time, it decays with a fairly high energy gamma. So we would have to assume the lab failed to notice the gammas. For the sake of argument, let's make that assumption.

A 75 cm^2 sample of Dubinina's brown sweater measured 9900 disintegrations / minute / 150 cm^2. So that sample alone contains 9900 * (75/150) / 60 = 83 Bq of radiation.

At this point, one might conclude that the sample was only contaminated with the radiation that 223 g of soil naturally contains. So if 223 g of soil wash over that portion of her sweater and deposit all their K-40, the mystery is solved.

But that isn't really realistic. The 223g of soil contains a trace amount of K-40 and, well, almost 223g of soil. I see no reason for the K-40 to stick to the sweater but the rest of the soil to pass on by.

If we instead assume that K-40 and soil both deposit on the sweater in equal proportions, then that 75 cm^2 sample would need 223g of soil on the sweater as well. To put that in perspective, that much dirt has to be on an 8x8 cm piece of fabric. Or for us Americans, a half pound of dirt on a 3 1/2" x 3 1/2" piece of fabric. That's substantially more dirt than sweater!

Also, you said "Indeed i would argue that the results are inconclusive without also measuring the silt underneath the bodies in order to properly determine the background level."

There is something else interesting in the report. Table 2 item 1 lists "Soil from No 1" (Kolevatov). I am guessing that some soil came along with the clothing sample and may have been brushed off and placed in the detector. The radiation measurement was 96 counts per minute. Background for the instrument, measured at two different times, was 90 and 100. So this soil is not significantly higher than background radiation.

I caution against reading too much into that. We don't know where the sample came from, or how much soil was there. (Does the original Russian document have any clues?) Also, beta radiation is easily absorbed, so a clump of dirt can "self-shield", lowering the observed beta reading somewhat. But still, this soil clearly was not screaming hot.

My gut feeling is that I can't see any natural explanation for the radioactive contamination on the clothing. The examiner concludes the same in the interview. "Should there be (can it be) increased contamination of clothing with radioactive substances under normal conditions, i.e. without being in a radioactively contaminated environment or place? Answer: Definitely not."

I don't believe water will concentrate natural radiation. If anything, I think it will dilute contamination.

This doesn't mean the clothing must have been contaminated pre-mortem. I can see post-mortem options with contamination transported by water. But in that case, my gut feeling is that there would need to be a whole lot of artificial contamination dumped on that area, as only a small percent would deposit on the clothing and stay there, e.g. not get washed off.

Still, I think it would be easier to assume the clothing was contaminated at, before, or shortly after death than during the three months afterwards.

[Nigel Evans]

Good that we're both enjoying the discussion! I wrote up the following without seeing your post @  05:07:09 PM. I'd omitted the 11% gamma from the calc but thought i'd just post it as we're clearly thinking along the same lines. The soil test is interesting.

So check out my math here. 1 Bequerel = 1 decay per sec.

Lets assume that the ravine silt is at the high end of normal given by the wikipedia entry below= 700 Bq per kg of K40 ignoring anything else = 42000 decays per min.
Now for the tough part. 150cm of clothing doesn't contain 1kg of silt! 
But could 150cm of fabric contain 100g of silt? I think it's possible, the fabric tested came from inner garments so you could argue that the outer garments acted as a trap retaining silt etc within and loading the tested items. You could argue otherwise of course but i'm arguing for natural contamination 
So i make that 4200 decays per min.

Now the figure of 700Bq could be much higher of course. If you double it then you have explained the tests as local background radiation. It all depends on the ravine silt which is an unknown.
So the published tests are inconclusive? Much better would have been to test the first five and the tent area?

[sarapuk]

The following is taken from the Report ;

[[ Samples of solid biosubstrates and clothes combined in groups under Nos 1, 2, 3,4 were submitted to the radio-isotope laboratory of the Sverdlovsk sanitaryepidemic station and were analyzed for presence of radioactive materials.

The absence of appropriate instruments and conditions in the laboratory made it impossible to perform radiochemical and spectrometric analysis to determine the chemical structure of the emitter and its radiation energy.

Recalculation was performed on the B-2 installation in a lead house with a cassette counter STS-6 in the number of 4 pieces.

Radiometric measurements of solid biosubstrates were carried out at the B-2 facility (№ 2554) in a lead house with a BFA-25 meter.

Is it possible to consider that this clothing is contaminated with radioactive dust?
Answer: Yes, clothes are contaminated or radioactive dust dropped from the atmosphere, or this garment has been exposed to contamination when working with radioactive substances, or on contact. This pollution exceeds, as I have already indicated, the norm for persons working with radioactive substances. ]]


And My comments ;

Apparently there is talk of several scientists who were brought in to assist the search parties and they carried GEIGER COUNTERS. Lev Ivanov claims to have used a Geiger Counter and that it went crazy around the campsite. But we have no information as to the EXACT TYPE OF GEIGER COUNTER USED, as far as I know. What is very interesting however is that higher than normal levels of BETA PARTICLES were detected during the Laboratory Tests. And by the time of those tests over 2 months had passed since the Incident and we know that washing of the bodies at the Ravine could wash away plenty of PARTICLES. But why no ALPHA or GAMMA PARTICLES  !  ?  If Ivanov was correct and his Geiger Counter went crazy are we to believe it was just because of BETA PARTICLES  But then again what type of Geiger Counter was he using. If it was a Military one then this is extremely important for the Investigation, because a Soviet Military Geiger Counter would have been designed to detect the strong signals of Radiation from a Nuclear Explosion.  The Authorities must know the answer to that.

Just a quicky regarding Geiger Counter construction, which applies to the present as well as the past. The main part is the TUBE. Different Tubes can be used for different situations.  Important because you wouldnt want a Tube to become fully saturated or even a bit saturated as this would give false readings. Thats why we need to know THE EXACT TYPE OF GEIGER COUNTER used in the 1959 search.

Some very interesting points and info.

But even if we know what type of Geiger counter they had (which I agree is a good question) why did they have them in the first place?  Also, why would Yuris K and Kolevatov take their hiking clothes to work with them?  Did they get this contaminatin from their jobs, and then somehow carry it home and on to this expedition?  Unlikely.

Also the anecdotal evidence that Ivanov's Geiger counter went crazy at the camp site?  If this is true it did not come from their jobs.

And of course thats a good question you put regarding the Geiger Counters ; WHY DID THEY HAVE THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE ?  Its possible that it was standard practice in those days for someone like Ivanov to be carrying a Geiger Counter during the search. Any one in Authority during those heady days of the so called COLD WAR would likely to have been issued with such equipment. It was in 1957 that the USSR launched the Worlds first ICBM. Things were hotting up. But there may be another reason why Ivanov was carrying a Geiger Counter  !  ?  Anyway he was, but the real question for me is ; WHEN EXACTLY DID THE SCIENTISTS ARRIVE WITH THEIR GEIGER COUNTERS  !  ? 
And of course thats a good question regarding hiking clothes ; Answer = THEY DIDNT WEAR THEIR HIKING CLOTHES AT WORK. Would we, I think not.
And of course thats a good question regarding contamination ; If the Authorities expect the general public to believe that they got contaminated at work and then carried the contamination home and on the expedition, then I would substitute the word unlikely for RIDICULOUS.
And yes if Ivanov was correct about the Geiger Counter going crazy we are talking serious RADIATION LEVELS, well above normal.

But what type of RADIATION  !  ? 

[Star man]

The following is taken from the Report ;

[[ Samples of solid biosubstrates and clothes combined in groups under Nos 1, 2, 3,4 were submitted to the radio-isotope laboratory of the Sverdlovsk sanitaryepidemic station and were analyzed for presence of radioactive materials.

The absence of appropriate instruments and conditions in the laboratory made it impossible to perform radiochemical and spectrometric analysis to determine the chemical structure of the emitter and its radiation energy.

Recalculation was performed on the B-2 installation in a lead house with a cassette counter STS-6 in the number of 4 pieces.

Radiometric measurements of solid biosubstrates were carried out at the B-2 facility (№ 2554) in a lead house with a BFA-25 meter.

Is it possible to consider that this clothing is contaminated with radioactive dust?
Answer: Yes, clothes are contaminated or radioactive dust dropped from the atmosphere, or this garment has been exposed to contamination when working with radioactive substances, or on contact. This pollution exceeds, as I have already indicated, the norm for persons working with radioactive substances. ]]


And My comments ;

Apparently there is talk of several scientists who were brought in to assist the search parties and they carried GEIGER COUNTERS. Lev Ivanov claims to have used a Geiger Counter and that it went crazy around the campsite. But we have no information as to the EXACT TYPE OF GEIGER COUNTER USED, as far as I know. What is very interesting however is that higher than normal levels of BETA PARTICLES were detected during the Laboratory Tests. And by the time of those tests over 2 months had passed since the Incident and we know that washing of the bodies at the Ravine could wash away plenty of PARTICLES. But why no ALPHA or GAMMA PARTICLES  !  ?  If Ivanov was correct and his Geiger Counter went crazy are we to believe it was just because of BETA PARTICLES  But then again what type of Geiger Counter was he using. If it was a Military one then this is extremely important for the Investigation, because a Soviet Military Geiger Counter would have been designed to detect the strong signals of Radiation from a Nuclear Explosion.  The Authorities must know the answer to that.

Just a quicky regarding Geiger Counter construction, which applies to the present as well as the past. The main part is the TUBE. Different Tubes can be used for different situations.  Important because you wouldnt want a Tube to become fully saturated or even a bit saturated as this would give false readings. Thats why we need to know THE EXACT TYPE OF GEIGER COUNTER used in the 1959 search.

Some very interesting points and info.

But even if we know what type of Geiger counter they had (which I agree is a good question) why did they have them in the first place?  Also, why would Yuris K and Kolevatov take their hiking clothes to work with them?  Did they get this contaminatin from their jobs, and then somehow carry it home and on to this expedition?  Unlikely.

Also the anecdotal evidence that Ivanov's Geiger counter went crazy at the camp site?  If this is true it did not come from their jobs.

And of course thats a good question you put regarding the Geiger Counters ; WHY DID THEY HAVE THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE ?  Its possible that it was standard practice in those days for someone like Ivanov to be carrying a Geiger Counter during the search. Any one in Authority during those heady days of the so called COLD WAR would likely to have been issued with such equipment. It was in 1957 that the USSR launched the Worlds first ICBM. Things were hotting up. But there may be another reason why Ivanov was carrying a Geiger Counter  !  ?  Anyway he was, but the real question for me is ; WHEN EXACTLY DID THE SCIENTISTS ARRIVE WITH THEIR GEIGER COUNTERS  !  ? 
And of course thats a good question regarding hiking clothes ; Answer = THEY DIDNT WEAR THEIR HIKING CLOTHES AT WORK. Would we, I think not.
And of course thats a good question regarding contamination ; If the Authorities expect the general public to believe that they got contaminated at work and then carried the contamination home and on the expedition, then I would substitute the word unlikely for RIDICULOUS.
And yes if Ivanov was correct about the Geiger Counter going crazy we are talking serious RADIATION LEVELS, well above normal.

But what type of RADIATION  !  ?

Yes.  All good questions.

Regards

Star man

[Ryan]

So Strontium 90 has an decay energy of just over 0.5 MeV.  Not sure if this is max or average tbh.  So should be detected by the instrument used?

Were there any tests done on the first bodies found?

I doubt very much that the clothes would act to concentrate the activity of potassium ifrom the stream.  Potassium compounds are usually soluble.  Strontium on the other hand is much less soluble.

Ryan’s input into this aspect might be fundamental to determine if there was nuclear involvement.

Thanks!

Sr-90 is definitely possible. It is what I consider one of the more likely possibilities.

It is considered a pure beta emitter, so we don't have to assume the dosimetrist conducting the lab testing missed something.

It definitely is energetic enough to be counted by the STS-6 Geiger tubes used in the lab.

Any Geiger counter used in the field that is sensitive to beta should detect it. (Some Geiger counters are not beta sensitive, e.g. they are gamma only, so they won't sense it. Some have a beta shield that can be opened (measures beta + gamma) or closed (measures gamma only); Sr-90 can only be measured if the shield is open. In fact, the DP-5V includes a Sr-90 check source in the beta shield that can be positioned in front of the tube to test it.)

Sr-90 is also highly abundant. It is one of the most common fission products in spent nuclear fuel. The Soviets extracted this in bulk to create RTGs to power lighthouses, among other things.

The first five bodies were found, autopsied, and buried before Ivanov was put in charge, which was 1 1/2 months before the other four bodies were found. I have no idea if they were ever tested for radiation, or when Geiger counters were first brought into the investigation. The only report I've seen concerns the four bodies in the ravine.

Radiation is something that few understand and everyone fears, so concerns about it are easily exaggerated. I want to see quantitative data. Statements of Geiger counters going nuts are almost meaningless without actual numbers. Recently I watched some UrbEx in Fukushima. The Geiger counter supposedly going nuts was displaying about 5x normal background. It's definitely contaminated, but the external dose rate there is nothing at all to fear, especially considering that a typical commercial jet airplane flight is 7x higher in dose rate than the Geiger counter going nuts in Fukushima.

[Nigel Evans]

Great to have Ryan onboard but a small correction. Ivanov replaced Tempalov within days, before the tent was moved and the first five were buried.
So this raises an interesting question, if the tent was checked for radiation the first five bodies must have also been but this (strongly?) suggests the results are part of the confiscation. Remember the tests we're discussing here were privately sponsored by Ivanov later on and although he (and his superior) were happy to discuss the the fact that the confiscation occurred they were very tight lipped about what material was removed. Ivanov could only have been discussing "fire orbs and directed heat rays" later because there was photographic evidence but he never actually states that. Ditto the morgue staff had a vat of alcohol to clean themselves of radioactive dust so they must have tested the first five but Ivanov doesn't discuss that (it's possible he didn't know of course).

[Ryan]

Great to have Ryan onboard but a small correction. Ivanov replaced Tempalov within days, before the tent was moved and the first five were buried.
So this raises an interesting question, if the tent was checked for radiation the first five bodies must have also been but this (strongly?) suggests the results are part of the confiscation. Remember the tests we're discussing here were privately sponsored by Ivanov later on and although he (and his superior) were happy to discuss the the fact that the confiscation occurred they were very tight lipped about what material was removed. Ivanov could only have been discussing "fire orbs and directed heat rays" later because there was photographic evidence but he never actually states that. Ditto the morgue staff had a vat of alcohol to clean themselves of radioactive dust so they must have tested the first five but Ivanov doesn't discuss that (it's possible he didn't know of course).

Sorry about the confusion. I'm not well versed with the case material as a whole. I was relying on the timeline at https://dyatlovpass.com/page.php?language_id=1&id=12786#timeline stating that on March 17, "Vladimir Korotaev is fired and Lev Ivanov is assigned as a lead investigator" and that the funerals for the first five found were held on March 9 and 10. Is this timeline in error?

Ivanov clearly knows the clothing of the four in the ravine is contaminated when he orders the testing on May 18. But the question of when and how contamination was first discovered is really interesting. I don't know.

So the morgue staff handling the first five bodies were taking radiation precautions? I'm really interested in the source for that.

I've not heard of using alcohol as part of an external decontamination protocol for radiation. Typically, radioactive contamination takes the form of dust, so anything you'd use to get dust and dirt off will work, e.g. washing hands with soap and water, and taking a shower after removing contaminated work clothes.

As for internal contamination, I've been told by multiple sources on my Chernobyl visits that consumption of vodka is necessary to wash out any radiation you may have absorbed. One worker told me about how a change to his social life caused him to drink a lot less. His next whole body radiation scan came up high. Then his social life changed again and he started drinking more; his next scan was lower! I'm not sure if people actually believe this....

Playing devil's advocate for a minute.... Alcohol is used for biological decontamination. Dead bodies can transmit disease. Mortuary staff likely take standard biological precautions after handling dead bodies. Could this vat of alcohol have been part of these standard precautions, and have nothing to do with radiation?

Also, people don't understand radiation at all. They think it can be spread from person to person like a contagious disease. After the last four bodies were confirmed to be contaminated with radioisotopes, could the mortuary staff handling the first five bodies have heard this and been spooked? They convinced themselves that they weren't contaminated because they washed their hands in alcohol. They told people this so they wouldn't be stigmatized for being radioactive. And that turned into a story about the mortuary obtaining a vat of alcohol to prevent radioactive contamination?

[sarapuk]

So Strontium 90 has an decay energy of just over 0.5 MeV.  Not sure if this is max or average tbh.  So should be detected by the instrument used?

Were there any tests done on the first bodies found?

I doubt very much that the clothes would act to concentrate the activity of potassium ifrom the stream.  Potassium compounds are usually soluble.  Strontium on the other hand is much less soluble.

Ryan’s input into this aspect might be fundamental to determine if there was nuclear involvement.

Thanks!

Sr-90 is definitely possible. It is what I consider one of the more likely possibilities.

It is considered a pure beta emitter, so we don't have to assume the dosimetrist conducting the lab testing missed something.

It definitely is energetic enough to be counted by the STS-6 Geiger tubes used in the lab.

Any Geiger counter used in the field that is sensitive to beta should detect it. (Some Geiger counters are not beta sensitive, e.g. they are gamma only, so they won't sense it. Some have a beta shield that can be opened (measures beta + gamma) or closed (measures gamma only); Sr-90 can only be measured if the shield is open. In fact, the DP-5V includes a Sr-90 check source in the beta shield that can be positioned in front of the tube to test it.)

Sr-90 is also highly abundant. It is one of the most common fission products in spent nuclear fuel. The Soviets extracted this in bulk to create RTGs to power lighthouses, among other things.

The first five bodies were found, autopsied, and buried before Ivanov was put in charge, which was 1 1/2 months before the other four bodies were found. I have no idea if they were ever tested for radiation, or when Geiger counters were first brought into the investigation. The only report I've seen concerns the four bodies in the ravine.

Radiation is something that few understand and everyone fears, so concerns about it are easily exaggerated. I want to see quantitative data. Statements of Geiger counters going nuts are almost meaningless without actual numbers. Recently I watched some UrbEx in Fukushima. The Geiger counter supposedly going nuts was displaying about 5x normal background. It's definitely contaminated, but the external dose rate there is nothing at all to fear, especially considering that a typical commercial jet airplane flight is 7x higher in dose rate than the Geiger counter going nuts in Fukushima.

It all really depends on what Instruments were used in the Field, so to speak. Without knowing the EXACT TYPE OF GEIGER COUNTER or COUNTERS used we really cant make any calculated judgments. The Field Tests would be of much more importance to us than the Lab Tests months after the EVENT.

[sarapuk]

Great to have Ryan onboard but a small correction. Ivanov replaced Tempalov within days, before the tent was moved and the first five were buried.
So this raises an interesting question, if the tent was checked for radiation the first five bodies must have also been but this (strongly?) suggests the results are part of the confiscation. Remember the tests we're discussing here were privately sponsored by Ivanov later on and although he (and his superior) were happy to discuss the the fact that the confiscation occurred they were very tight lipped about what material was removed. Ivanov could only have been discussing "fire orbs and directed heat rays" later because there was photographic evidence but he never actually states that. Ditto the morgue staff had a vat of alcohol to clean themselves of radioactive dust so they must have tested the first five but Ivanov doesn't discuss that (it's possible he didn't know of course).

Yes thats well spotted. And its easy to overlook. Because there is virtually NOTHING regarding the use of Geiger Counters at  the site or sites of the Incident. Nothing about the type of Geiger Counter or Counters used, or where they were used or when they were used or the READOUTS. When I go out in the field, so to speak, with My Metal Detectors or Geiger Counter I take READINGS, I dont just say oh that was a loud noise going off or wow the Digital Display went crazy, I would make notes of the READOUTS. The Dyatlov Incident was under Investigation as a possible Major Crime Scene, so WHY didnt any one take PROPER READOUTS ! ?  Or maybe they did  !  ?

[Nigel Evans]

Great to have Ryan onboard but a small correction. Ivanov replaced Tempalov within days, before the tent was moved and the first five were buried.
So this raises an interesting question, if the tent was checked for radiation the first five bodies must have also been but this (strongly?) suggests the results are part of the confiscation. Remember the tests we're discussing here were privately sponsored by Ivanov later on and although he (and his superior) were happy to discuss the the fact that the confiscation occurred they were very tight lipped about what material was removed. Ivanov could only have been discussing "fire orbs and directed heat rays" later because there was photographic evidence but he never actually states that. Ditto the morgue staff had a vat of alcohol to clean themselves of radioactive dust so they must have tested the first five but Ivanov doesn't discuss that (it's possible he didn't know of course).

Yes thats well spotted. And its easy to overlook. Because there is virtually NOTHING regarding the use of Geiger Counters at  the site or sites of the Incident. Nothing about the type of Geiger Counter or Counters used, or where they were used or when they were used or the READOUTS. When I go out in the field, so to speak, with My Metal Detectors or Geiger Counter I take READINGS, I dont just say oh that was a loud noise going off or wow the Digital Display went crazy, I would make notes of the READOUTS. The Dyatlov Incident was under Investigation as a possible Major Crime Scene, so WHY didnt any one take PROPER READOUTS ! ?  Or maybe they did  !  ?

They must have. Imo Ivanov was keeping inline with his oath to the state, so he's happy to explain there was a coverup but not prepared to divulge state secrets wrt the contents. That's why i put so much store in his "hints" - "fire orbs & directed heat rays".

[Nigel Evans]

Great to have Ryan onboard but a small correction. Ivanov replaced Tempalov within days, before the tent was moved and the first five were buried.
So this raises an interesting question, if the tent was checked for radiation the first five bodies must have also been but this (strongly?) suggests the results are part of the confiscation. Remember the tests we're discussing here were privately sponsored by Ivanov later on and although he (and his superior) were happy to discuss the the fact that the confiscation occurred they were very tight lipped about what material was removed. Ivanov could only have been discussing "fire orbs and directed heat rays" later because there was photographic evidence but he never actually states that. Ditto the morgue staff had a vat of alcohol to clean themselves of radioactive dust so they must have tested the first five but Ivanov doesn't discuss that (it's possible he didn't know of course).

Sorry about the confusion. I'm not well versed with the case material as a whole. I was relying on the timeline at https://dyatlovpass.com/page.php?language_id=1&id=12786#timeline stating that on March 17, "Vladimir Korotaev is fired and Lev Ivanov is assigned as a lead investigator" and that the funerals for the first five found were held on March 9 and 10. Is this timeline in error?
"For example, Lebedev, a member of the rescue team, stated in the criminal case file: ‘The next morning (that is, the morning of February 28) in the presence of comrade Ivanov, all of the items were taken out of the tent.’

Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 84). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.

Ivanov clearly knows the clothing of the four in the ravine is contaminated when he orders the testing on May 18. But the question of when and how contamination was first discovered is really interesting. I don't know.

So the morgue staff handling the first five bodies were taking radiation precautions? I'm really interested in the source for that.
"One more interesting detail regarding May 1959 autopsy was provided by Vladimir Korotaev, at the time a recent law school graduate working for the Ivdel Prosecutor's Office. He was helping Vasily Tempalov for the first few days of the investigation. He claimed that he was present as a corpsman during the forensic examination of the last four bodies. According to Korotaev, "...there were two barrels with alcohol, and after every autopsy we, naked, plunged into them. It made me think: what was going on..." Korotaev's testimony looks somewhat doubtful: dipping naked into the barrel with alcohol, besides being a very painful experience, would not make any sense - other, more efficient and less traumatic decontaminating agents were available at the time.
Lobatcheva, Irina. Dyatlov Pass Keeps Its Secret (p. 105). Parallel Worlds' Books. Kindle Edition. "
I've not heard of using alcohol as part of an external decontamination protocol for radiation. Typically, radioactive contamination takes the form of dust, so anything you'd use to get dust and dirt off will work, e.g. washing hands with soap and water, and taking a shower after removing contaminated work clothes.

As for internal contamination, I've been told by multiple sources on my Chernobyl visits that consumption of vodka is necessary to wash out any radiation you may have absorbed. One worker told me about how a change to his social life caused him to drink a lot less. His next whole body radiation scan came up high. Then his social life changed again and he started drinking more; his next scan was lower! I'm not sure if people actually believe this....  
Apparently Soviet submarines issued alcohol for washing as a precaution against radiation.... Maybe they didn't wash with it 

Playing devil's advocate for a minute.... Alcohol is used for biological decontamination. Dead bodies can transmit disease. Mortuary staff likely take standard biological precautions after handling dead bodies. Could this vat of alcohol have been part of these standard precautions, and have nothing to do with radiation?

Also, people don't understand radiation at all. They think it can be spread from person to person like a contagious disease. After the last four bodies were confirmed to be contaminated with radioisotopes, could the mortuary staff handling the first five bodies have heard this and been spooked? They convinced themselves that they weren't contaminated because they washed their hands in alcohol. They told people this so they wouldn't be stigmatized for being radioactive. And that turned into a story about the mortuary obtaining a vat of alcohol to prevent radioactive contamination?

[Nigel Evans]

But, as it happened, it mattered little what Prosecutor Tempalov did that day. Once Tempalov returned to Ivdel, he wouldn’t get a chance even to initiate his case; and, within two days’ time, his services would no longer be required. In fact, after the first bodies had been found the day before, higher-ups in the regional prosecutor’s office were already arranging to have Tempalov replaced by a more powerful prosecutor. By March 1, they would settle on Lev Ivanov, a man who would come to personify the Dyatlov case for decades to come. Ivanov liked to tell people that his personal motto for success was “I am honest, not corrupt, and I sleep well.” By the end of the case, however, Ivanov would betray his motto on at least two of these counts.

Eichar, Donnie. Dead Mountain (pp. 122-123). Chronicle Books LLC. Kindle Edition.

[sarapuk]

But, as it happened, it mattered little what Prosecutor Tempalov did that day. Once Tempalov returned to Ivdel, he wouldn’t get a chance even to initiate his case; and, within two days’ time, his services would no longer be required. In fact, after the first bodies had been found the day before, higher-ups in the regional prosecutor’s office were already arranging to have Tempalov replaced by a more powerful prosecutor. By March 1, they would settle on Lev Ivanov, a man who would come to personify the Dyatlov case for decades to come. Ivanov liked to tell people that his personal motto for success was “I am honest, not corrupt, and I sleep well.” By the end of the case, however, Ivanov would betray his motto on at least two of these counts.

Eichar, Donnie. Dead Mountain (pp. 122-123). Chronicle Books LLC. Kindle Edition.

Maybe Lev Ivanov is a person who needs a Post on his own in this Forum  !  ?  It seems like we can consider him a very important person regarding the Case overall. On the one hand he brings the Case to a rather abrupt end and on the other hand he starts talking about UFO's ETC ETC.

[sarapuk]

Just a quickie on this Post. What if something else caused Ivanov's Geiger Counter to go crazy at the Tent Site  !  ?  I will put this question in the UFO section as well.

[Nigel Evans]

Just a quickie on this Post. What if something else caused Ivanov's Geiger Counter to go crazy at the Tent Site  !  ?  I will put this question in the UFO section as well.

According to Ryan it would have to be a hard beta emitter which narrows down the "something elses" somewhat and pushes Carbon 14 off the list. But as Ryan says "go crazy" has little objective value.

[Star man]

Just a quickie on this Post. What if something else caused Ivanov's Geiger Counter to go crazy at the Tent Site  !  ?  I will put this question in the UFO section as well.

According to Ryan it would have to be a hard beta emitter which narrows down the "something elses" somewhat and pushes Carbon 14 off the list. But as Ryan says "go crazy" has little objective value.

Even if the Geiger counter did go a bit crazy it indicates radiation at the tent when there should be none above background.

[Nigel Evans]

Just a quickie on this Post. What if something else caused Ivanov's Geiger Counter to go crazy at the Tent Site  !  ?  I will put this question in the UFO section as well.

According to Ryan it would have to be a hard beta emitter which narrows down the "something elses" somewhat and pushes Carbon 14 off the list. But as Ryan says "go crazy" has little objective value.

Even if the Geiger counter did go a bit crazy it indicates radiation at the tent when there should be none above background.

As i've posted below, background is potentially highly variable. The tent could have been exposed to stream/river silt with high natural levels on their trip or previous ones. I don't think it's that simple.

[sarapuk]

Just a quickie on this Post. What if something else caused Ivanov's Geiger Counter to go crazy at the Tent Site  !  ?  I will put this question in the UFO section as well.

According to Ryan it would have to be a hard beta emitter which narrows down the "something elses" somewhat and pushes Carbon 14 off the list. But as Ryan says "go crazy" has little objective value.

I was thinking along the lines of some kind of ELECTRICAL INTERFERENCE. There are many stories of Electrical Interference Interfering with Instruments on such vehicles as Airplanes and Ships, and Motor Cars, etc. And one area of the World in particular is known to be a source of strange events possibly caused by some kind of Electrical Interference, 'The Bermuda Triangle'. Also such Electrical Interference is said to have occurred many times when near to UFO sightings.