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Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: The Real Ball Lightning theory  (Read 24402 times)

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February 13, 2019, 08:03:13 AM
Reply #120
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Nigel Evans


You don't need microwaves to create NO2 and hence nitric acid, simple electrical discharges will suffice.

So if the high winds, strong wind sheer and snow can continually produce lots of ionisation then you can have a lightning factory, producing NO2/HNO3 and the swirling storm mixing the gas  into an acid aerosol/mist to be encountered by the group downwind.

Now the enclosed volume of the tent will offer some limited protection to the poisonous mist outside, unless you go outside to relieve yourself... So that gives an explanation for the asymmetry of exposure. YuriD dying quite early and others having a range of orange/brown colour, YuriD being substantially darker than Zinaida for instance. One witness noted in the morgue that Rustem's face seemed normal whilst Igor's had darkened.

However the acid is landing on the outside of the tent and weakening the weave, n.b. the canvas will be proofed and should not display bleaching but the wind will be forcing acidic water deeper into the weave, i.e. into the back of the fabric.... So it starts to tear and the air inside the tent is becoming more acrid. The group is starting to panic. YuriD is coughing and wheezing. Dyatlov pushes his jacket into one of the tears to try and seal it. But another opens up, more poisonous air. Strangely it's getting warm. Then there is a big "pulse" and the inside of the tent becomes intolerable, suffocating. People escape as fast as they can, no time to collect stuff they have to get away from this location to be able to breathe. Semyon and Nicolai are elsewhere on the ridge taking photos of the light show over at Kholat. They return via a different route avoiding this mist that smells strange.

February 13, 2019, 12:16:47 PM
Reply #121
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sarapuk

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Wrt the Chivruay photo the wind direction was given as  W N W which would fit with the very black section of the top left corner being part of a plume from an upwind object. It wouldn't fit if this very dark section was at any of the other three corners. So you would have to argue for a 1 in 4 coincidence that the worst deterioration fits the plume theory.

N.B. it can be argued that the dark patches of snow fit the NO2 theory as cooled/condensed NO2.  I.e. all of the photo could be genuine.

It could still be a coincidence though.
DB

February 13, 2019, 12:27:15 PM
Reply #122
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sarapuk

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You don't need microwaves to create NO2 and hence nitric acid, simple electrical discharges will suffice.

So if the high winds, strong wind sheer and snow can continually produce lots of ionisation then you can have a lightning factory, producing NO2/HNO3 and the swirling storm mixing the gas  into an acid aerosol/mist to be encountered by the group downwind.

Now the enclosed volume of the tent will offer some limited protection to the poisonous mist outside, unless you go outside to relieve yourself... So that gives an explanation for the asymmetry of exposure. YuriD dying quite early and others having a range of orange/brown colour, YuriD being substantially darker than Zinaida for instance. One witness noted in the morgue that Rustem's face seemed normal whilst Igor's had darkened.

However the acid is landing on the outside of the tent and weakening the weave, n.b. the canvas will be proofed and should not display bleaching but the wind will be forcing acidic water deeper into the weave, i.e. into the back of the fabric.... So it starts to tear and the air inside the tent is becoming more acrid. The group is starting to panic. YuriD is coughing and wheezing. Dyatlov pushes his jacket into one of the tears to try and seal it. But another opens up, more poisonous air. Strangely it's getting warm. Then there is a big "pulse" and the inside of the tent becomes intolerable, suffocating. People escape as fast as they can, no time to collect stuff they have to get away from this location to be able to breathe. Semyon and Nicolai are elsewhere on the ridge taking photos of the light show over at Kholat. They return via a different route avoiding this mist that smells strange.

Presumably they all walked about a mile in very severe weather conditions.  Conditions that they knew would endanger their lives if not properly equipped.  They would have had time to get their senses together and not just amble off for such a distance. So wouldnt it have been better just to stay fairly local to the TENT rather than amble off all that way.  Talk of GAS etc doesnt amount to anything if common sense is thrown out of the TENT.  Are you saying that the GAS affected them all that much that they didnt know what they were doing.
DB

February 13, 2019, 12:42:58 PM
Reply #123
Online

Nigel Evans


You don't need microwaves to create NO2 and hence nitric acid, simple electrical discharges will suffice.

So if the high winds, strong wind sheer and snow can continually produce lots of ionisation then you can have a lightning factory, producing NO2/HNO3 and the swirling storm mixing the gas  into an acid aerosol/mist to be encountered by the group downwind.

Now the enclosed volume of the tent will offer some limited protection to the poisonous mist outside, unless you go outside to relieve yourself... So that gives an explanation for the asymmetry of exposure. YuriD dying quite early and others having a range of orange/brown colour, YuriD being substantially darker than Zinaida for instance. One witness noted in the morgue that Rustem's face seemed normal whilst Igor's had darkened.

However the acid is landing on the outside of the tent and weakening the weave, n.b. the canvas will be proofed and should not display bleaching but the wind will be forcing acidic water deeper into the weave, i.e. into the back of the fabric.... So it starts to tear and the air inside the tent is becoming more acrid. The group is starting to panic. YuriD is coughing and wheezing. Dyatlov pushes his jacket into one of the tears to try and seal it. But another opens up, more poisonous air. Strangely it's getting warm. Then there is a big "pulse" and the inside of the tent becomes intolerable, suffocating. People escape as fast as they can, no time to collect stuff they have to get away from this location to be able to breathe. Semyon and Nicolai are elsewhere on the ridge taking photos of the light show over at Kholat. They return via a different route avoiding this mist that smells strange.

Presumably they all walked about a mile in very severe weather conditions.  Conditions that they knew would endanger their lives if not properly equipped.  They would have had time to get their senses together and not just amble off for such a distance. So wouldnt it have been better just to stay fairly local to the TENT rather than amble off all that way.  Talk of GAS etc doesnt amount to anything if common sense is thrown out of the TENT.  Are you saying that the GAS affected them all that much that they didnt know what they were doing.

Taraaa!!!

https://www3.epa.gov/ttnchie1/ap42/ch14/final/c14s03.pdf
The N2O emission factor for each lightning flash is:0.14 grams N2O/flash

February 13, 2019, 01:06:48 PM
Reply #124
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Nigel Evans


 For chronic exposure to nitrous oxide, it is recommended that the maximum exposure be 20 parts per billion (expressing a ratio between nitrous oxide and breathable air), and for acute exposures, no more than 100 parts per billion for one hour.
https://www.oxfordtreatment.com/nitrous-oxide/overdose/

February 13, 2019, 01:30:27 PM
Reply #125
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Nigel Evans


I think the shape of the Ural mountains and Kholat is the key here rather than the geology. Strong westerly winds have little to get in their way before hitting the Urals. The wind above 1200 metres has no obstruction at all but at Kholat the westerly ridge directs the wind at ground level straight up vertically into the higher altitude horizontal winds creating enormous turbulence. With high winds at 100mph plus in a snow storm you then have excellent conditions for constant high levels of ion production. Then in 1959 with stronger geo magnetism this ionisation creates quite a light show (probably including fire orbs and plane1 and plane2). But the important bit is the constant or possibly just regular discharging. Note it doesn't have to be cloud to ground, it could be cloud to cloud. But it's producing N2O and NO2 and nitric acid and they just camped downwind - in the wrong place at the wrong time. It may be that these gases and aerosols are ionised and attracted to the tent which is an earth point in an otherwise well insulated hillside in a metre of snow. So any of the relevant molecues that hit the tent stick to it building up levels of exposure.

February 13, 2019, 03:35:30 PM
Reply #126
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Star man

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At the temperatures on the mountain NO2 would be close to if not a frozen powdery dust.  It would only become reactive and corrosive on contact with something warmer.  The inside of the tent would be somewhat warmer, and certainly if it got on heir skin, eyes or in their lungs where it turn back to corrosive toxic gas.

I think it is parts per million that is toxic rather than parts per billion.

There still not enough evidence though.  Yellow skin, one potential Edema.  It's not enough.  Where is the toxicology report?

February 14, 2019, 01:17:17 AM
Reply #127
Online

Nigel Evans


At the temperatures on the mountain NO2 would be close to if not a frozen powdery dust.  It would only become reactive and corrosive on contact with something warmer.  The inside of the tent would be somewhat warmer, and certainly if it got on heir skin, eyes or in their lungs where it turn back to corrosive toxic gas.The lightning (arcing?) would warm things up and also convert snow / water vapour into steam to condense as a mist/aerosol containing dissolved no2 converting to nitric acid. So i don't see the cold as an issue.

I think it is parts per million that is toxic rather than parts per billion.

There still not enough evidence though.  Yellow skin, one potential Edema.  It's not enough.  Where is the toxicology report?You've missed out enlarged aortas. Nitrogen oxides occur naturally in the body, nitric oxide is essential to life and indeed sex (viagra) and can decompose into NO2 so i think this could be a challenge for modern toxicology never mind 1959.'s The pathologist noted foam in YuriD's lungs. The best chance perhaps would be to analyse the skin. But it seems the main nitric acid / keratin reaction occurred after the autopsies and any discoloration during them wasn't identified or confused with decomposition or contamination in the field perhaps.


February 14, 2019, 12:25:40 PM
Reply #128
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
You don't need microwaves to create NO2 and hence nitric acid, simple electrical discharges will suffice.

So if the high winds, strong wind sheer and snow can continually produce lots of ionisation then you can have a lightning factory, producing NO2/HNO3 and the swirling storm mixing the gas  into an acid aerosol/mist to be encountered by the group downwind.

Now the enclosed volume of the tent will offer some limited protection to the poisonous mist outside, unless you go outside to relieve yourself... So that gives an explanation for the asymmetry of exposure. YuriD dying quite early and others having a range of orange/brown colour, YuriD being substantially darker than Zinaida for instance. One witness noted in the morgue that Rustem's face seemed normal whilst Igor's had darkened.

However the acid is landing on the outside of the tent and weakening the weave, n.b. the canvas will be proofed and should not display bleaching but the wind will be forcing acidic water deeper into the weave, i.e. into the back of the fabric.... So it starts to tear and the air inside the tent is becoming more acrid. The group is starting to panic. YuriD is coughing and wheezing. Dyatlov pushes his jacket into one of the tears to try and seal it. But another opens up, more poisonous air. Strangely it's getting warm. Then there is a big "pulse" and the inside of the tent becomes intolerable, suffocating. People escape as fast as they can, no time to collect stuff they have to get away from this location to be able to breathe. Semyon and Nicolai are elsewhere on the ridge taking photos of the light show over at Kholat. They return via a different route avoiding this mist that smells strange.

Presumably they all walked about a mile in very severe weather conditions.  Conditions that they knew would endanger their lives if not properly equipped.  They would have had time to get their senses together and not just amble off for such a distance. So wouldnt it have been better just to stay fairly local to the TENT rather than amble off all that way.  Talk of GAS etc doesnt amount to anything if common sense is thrown out of the TENT.  Are you saying that the GAS affected them all that much that they didnt know what they were doing.

Taraaa!!!

https://www3.epa.gov/ttnchie1/ap42/ch14/final/c14s03.pdf
The N2O emission factor for each lightning flash is:0.14 grams N2O/flash

Presumably that means YES. Yes you are suggesting that the GAS affected them all, and as a result they didnt know what they were doing. I think most people would disagree with you on this when they have read the whole of the story. They did know what they were doing.
DB

February 14, 2019, 12:27:13 PM
Reply #129
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sarapuk

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For chronic exposure to nitrous oxide, it is recommended that the maximum exposure be 20 parts per billion (expressing a ratio between nitrous oxide and breathable air), and for acute exposures, no more than 100 parts per billion for one hour.
https://www.oxfordtreatment.com/nitrous-oxide/overdose/

Irrelevant information because it proves nothing, and doesnt explain how the injuries came about, etc.
DB

February 14, 2019, 12:30:22 PM
Reply #130
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I think the shape of the Ural mountains and Kholat is the key here rather than the geology. Strong westerly winds have little to get in their way before hitting the Urals. The wind above 1200 metres has no obstruction at all but at Kholat the westerly ridge directs the wind at ground level straight up vertically into the higher altitude horizontal winds creating enormous turbulence. With high winds at 100mph plus in a snow storm you then have excellent conditions for constant high levels of ion production. Then in 1959 with stronger geo magnetism this ionisation creates quite a light show (probably including fire orbs and plane1 and plane2). But the important bit is the constant or possibly just regular discharging. Note it doesn't have to be cloud to ground, it could be cloud to cloud. But it's producing N2O and NO2 and nitric acid and they just camped downwind - in the wrong place at the wrong time. It may be that these gases and aerosols are ionised and attracted to the tent which is an earth point in an otherwise well insulated hillside in a metre of snow. So any of the relevant molecues that hit the tent stick to it building up levels of exposure.

Plenty of places in the World where these types of conditions occur, and plenty of potential earth points, but no phenomenon reported  !  ? 
DB

February 14, 2019, 12:35:42 PM
Reply #131
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sarapuk

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At the temperatures on the mountain NO2 would be close to if not a frozen powdery dust.  It would only become reactive and corrosive on contact with something warmer.  The inside of the tent would be somewhat warmer, and certainly if it got on heir skin, eyes or in their lungs where it turn back to corrosive toxic gas.The lightning (arcing?) would warm things up and also convert snow / water vapour into steam to condense as a mist/aerosol containing dissolved no2 converting to nitric acid. So i don't see the cold as an issue.

I think it is parts per million that is toxic rather than parts per billion.

There still not enough evidence though.  Yellow skin, one potential Edema.  It's not enough.  Where is the toxicology report?You've missed out enlarged aortas. Nitrogen oxides occur naturally in the body, nitric oxide is essential to life and indeed sex (viagra) and can decompose into NO2 so i think this could be a challenge for modern toxicology never mind 1959.'s The pathologist noted foam in YuriD's lungs. The best chance perhaps would be to analyse the skin. But it seems the main nitric acid / keratin reaction occurred after the autopsies and any discoloration during them wasn't identified or confused with decomposition or contamination in the field perhaps.

The lightning (arcing?) would warm things up and also convert snow / water vapour into steam to condense as a mist/aerosol containing dissolved no2 converting to nitric acid. So i don't see the cold as an issue.

The lightning would warm things up  !  ?  Hardly a scientific explanation is it. 
DB

February 14, 2019, 12:49:43 PM
Reply #132
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
At the temperatures on the mountain NO2 would be close to if not a frozen powdery dust.  It would only become reactive and corrosive on contact with something warmer.  The inside of the tent would be somewhat warmer, and certainly if it got on heir skin, eyes or in their lungs where it turn back to corrosive toxic gas.The lightning (arcing?) would warm things up and also convert snow / water vapour into steam to condense as a mist/aerosol containing dissolved no2 converting to nitric acid. So i don't see the cold as an issue.

I think it is parts per million that is toxic rather than parts per billion.

There still not enough evidence though.  Yellow skin, one potential Edema.  It's not enough.  Where is the toxicology report?You've missed out enlarged aortas. Nitrogen oxides occur naturally in the body, nitric oxide is essential to life and indeed sex (viagra) and can decompose into NO2 so i think this could be a challenge for modern toxicology never mind 1959.'s The pathologist noted foam in YuriD's lungs. The best chance perhaps would be to analyse the skin. But it seems the main nitric acid / keratin reaction occurred after the autopsies and any discoloration during them wasn't identified or confused with decomposition or contamination in the field perhaps.

The cold isn't an issue.  Will have to think about residual evidence after 60 years.

February 19, 2019, 02:54:29 AM
Reply #133
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Nigel Evans



February 19, 2019, 01:01:16 PM
Reply #134
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Russian fire orbs - https://www.express.co.uk/news/nature/580230/VIDEO-Bizarre-hovering-UFO-lights-REAL-DEAL-alien-chasers
Interesting whistling sound in the background.

Fascinating. Hard to say what is going on there, looks like half a dozen or so orb like objects.
DB

February 23, 2019, 03:18:29 AM
Reply #135
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Nigel Evans


From memory we haven't discussed this before on this site, n.b. it's gruesome. - https://mysteriousuniverse.org/2012/06/death-from-above-part-one-the-horrible-melting-man/
Strong resonance with the DPI and Ivanov's fireorbs, "Those speaking with Filho noticed that his exposed flesh began to look like what one eyewitness referred to as “meat that has been allowed to boil for a while.”". Remember the nine mansi hunters?

Heat rays, golden orbs and a victim who survived long enough to relate the event.

February 23, 2019, 11:47:29 AM
Reply #136
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sarapuk

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From memory we haven't discussed this before on this site, n.b. it's gruesome. - https://mysteriousuniverse.org/2012/06/death-from-above-part-one-the-horrible-melting-man/
Strong resonance with the DPI and Ivanov's fireorbs, "Those speaking with Filho noticed that his exposed flesh began to look like what one eyewitness referred to as “meat that has been allowed to boil for a while.”". Remember the nine mansi hunters?

Heat rays, golden orbs and a victim who survived long enough to relate the event.


Good post. I read about this story not that long ago while searching the WWW for any similarities with the Dyatlov Incident.
It just goes to show why we are finding out things these days that were not known to the general public before the Internet was born. The Internet will go down as one of the greatest inventions of all time.
Any way ;and I post this little bit from that article ;

''One of the most intriguing theories regarding the fate of Mr. Filho comes to us from Dr. Luiz Braga who, while investigating the incident years after the fact, came to the conclusion that Filho’s bizarre burns — in which the radiation had an effect on living cells, but not the lifeless ones, such as hair and clothing — were similar to: “…the indirect effects of a nuclear explosion, as occurred with certain victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.”

Could a BEAM of some kind have been responsible for some of those unusual injuries on some of the Dyatlov bodies  !  ?  Radiation traces were found, we know that.
DB

February 24, 2019, 03:25:08 AM
Reply #137
Online

Nigel Evans


From memory we haven't discussed this before on this site, n.b. it's gruesome. - https://mysteriousuniverse.org/2012/06/death-from-above-part-one-the-horrible-melting-man/
Strong resonance with the DPI and Ivanov's fireorbs, "Those speaking with Filho noticed that his exposed flesh began to look like what one eyewitness referred to as “meat that has been allowed to boil for a while.”". Remember the nine mansi hunters?

Heat rays, golden orbs and a victim who survived long enough to relate the event.


Good post. I read about this story not that long ago while searching the WWW for any similarities with the Dyatlov Incident.
It just goes to show why we are finding out things these days that were not known to the general public before the Internet was born. The Internet will go down as one of the greatest inventions of all time.
Any way ;and I post this little bit from that article ;

''One of the most intriguing theories regarding the fate of Mr. Filho comes to us from Dr. Luiz Braga who, while investigating the incident years after the fact, came to the conclusion that Filho’s bizarre burns — in which the radiation had an effect on living cells, but not the lifeless ones, such as hair and clothing — were similar to: “…the indirect effects of a nuclear explosion, as occurred with certain victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.”

Could a BEAM of some kind have been responsible for some of those unusual injuries on some of the Dyatlov bodies  !  ?  Radiation traces were found, we know that.
Yes the discussions on this forum are entirely a consequence of the internet empowering dispersed groups of people with a similar interest.

Back to your point.
I'm not aware of any radiation trace above background levels? The asymmetry of the burning (skin vs hair and fibres) fits electro magnetic radiation imo, Have you ever got sunburn on your face? Did your hair suffer?

February 24, 2019, 03:36:04 AM
Reply #138
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Nigel Evans


I'd add that if you construct a theory that there are electro magnetic objects (thankfully rare) that are responsible for this event, cattle mutilations and the human mutilation case in Brazil (and possibly Lyudmila's injuries) then all you need to explain the various patterns of injuries is to adjust the frequency of the radiation. Higher frequencies would cause this mans injuries, lower frequencies would penetrate deeper.

February 24, 2019, 03:58:27 PM
Reply #139
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Star man

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It's possible this Filo chap was exposed to some freak astronomical event.  A highly columnated focused beam of x-ray or gamma radiation.  A gamma ray burst.  Difficult to say why it would be that localised and intense though.  Very strange.

February 25, 2019, 04:49:56 AM
Reply #140
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Nigel Evans


It's possible this Filo chap was exposed to some freak astronomical event.  A highly columnated focused beam of x-ray or gamma radiation.  A gamma ray burst.  Difficult to say why it would be that localised and intense though.  Very strange.


One possibility (other than BL) is the sun emitting some very high energy localised  pulse. But I'd opt for BL due to the reports of boitata and orbs. I'm not sure of it needing higher frequencies like gamma rays just much stronger UV perhaps.


February 25, 2019, 06:32:05 AM
Reply #141
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Nigel Evans


Thinking further X-rays would fit better. Lightning produces positrons which annihilate into X-rays so there's a possible theory from conventional physics.


February 25, 2019, 08:43:22 AM
Reply #143
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Star man

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It’s a very strange and unfortunate occurrence.  Could be solar I suppose. BL ?  Who knows.   nea1

February 25, 2019, 12:57:33 PM
Reply #144
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sarapuk

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I'd add that if you construct a theory that there are electro magnetic objects (thankfully rare) that are responsible for this event, cattle mutilations and the human mutilation case in Brazil (and possibly Lyudmila's injuries) then all you need to explain the various patterns of injuries is to adjust the frequency of the radiation. Higher frequencies would cause this mans injuries, lower frequencies would penetrate deeper.


Well a BEAM of some kind is a possibility. But what kind of Beam is another matter, and MATTER may be the operative word. When I was an Apprentice Instrument Mechanic I asked an Electrician WHAT EXACTLY IS ELECTRICITY ? Sounds a fairly basic question doesnt it. He said I DONT KNOW, NOBODY REALLY KNOWS. And I have pondered that many times. Well not even the super duper Physicists at CERN can answer that question. So many of the things and words we use can not really be explained fully.
DB

February 25, 2019, 01:03:06 PM
Reply #145
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sarapuk

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It's possible this Filo chap was exposed to some freak astronomical event.  A highly columnated focused beam of x-ray or gamma radiation.  A gamma ray burst.  Difficult to say why it would be that localised and intense though.  Very strange.

In which case it is highly unlikely to apply to the Dyatlov Incident. Unless the freak astronomical event started at the Tent and followed the Group for maybe several hours  !  ?  Highly unlikely.
DB

February 25, 2019, 01:38:42 PM
Reply #146
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sarapuk

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Thinking further X-rays would fit better. Lightning produces positrons which annihilate into X-rays so there's a possible theory from conventional physics.

But would this be able to explain the Dyatlov Incident   !  ?   Terrestrial gamma-ray flashes (TGFs) are a very interesting phenomenon but there is no evidence of them having caused injury or damage to people.
DB

February 25, 2019, 01:41:00 PM
Reply #147
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sarapuk

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DB

February 25, 2019, 01:44:42 PM
Reply #148
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sarapuk

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It’s a very strange and unfortunate occurrence.  Could be solar I suppose. BL ?  Who knows.   nea1

Well its certainly very strange but it doesnt really go any where near explaining the Dyatlov Incident.  There is no evidence of Solar phenomenon or Ball Lightning phenomenon injuring people like some of the Dyatlov Group.
DB

February 25, 2019, 02:15:34 PM
Reply #149
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Nigel Evans


It’s a very strange and unfortunate occurrence.  Could be solar I suppose. BL ?  Who knows.   nea1

Well its certainly very strange but it doesnt really go any where near explaining the Dyatlov Incident.  There is no evidence of Solar phenomenon or Ball Lightning phenomenon injuring people like some of the Dyatlov Group.
Yuri K's leg would be a fit for a directed heat ray. Or it was the fire.