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Author Topic: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2  (Read 25657 times)

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January 30, 2019, 11:48:55 PM
Reply #90
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I am under the impression that a tactical nuke (low yield) at any altitude would have been heard and seen by hundreds of people and very obvious.

Yes it would be visible for some distance. Sound would depend on wind speed and direction but would be weakly audible from distance.

However it would not last long.  Bright flash would last several seconds.  Fire ball 500 metres would last 10 to 20 seconds at a guess .

These devices are not like the massively devastating images usually portrayed on our tv screens.  They are tactical. Designed to be used to stop advancing armies by Capet bombing them.  Designed to take people out via radiation blast rather than infrastructure.

500 metre fire ball would be visible from 70km as an orange orb slightly smaller than the moon would look and last probably a maximum of 30 seconds at a rough guess.


How do you know what the particular effects would be when you dont even know the yield of any such weapon alleged to have been involved  !  ?  This is SPECULATION PILED UPON SPECULATION.

It was either a tactical nuke or it wasn't a nuke at all.  Why? Because a standard fission device would have left more significant evidence in terms of flattened burned trees etc.  A fusion device would be a whole new ball game.  They would never have found the group.  They maybe would find their shadows burned into the rocks where they had once stood.

A tactical nuke would only be several kilotonnes.  This is still a big explosion but more like big conventional weapon.  If it was more than this it wouldn't be tactical.

Dominov is correct when he talks about the development of these tactical devices (late 1950s to early 1960s). he is also right to suspect the covert op.  Nobody seems to be able to explain why they deviated from route.  Nothing in diaries?  What was the device Kolevatov had? It might seem unimportant but until we know what it was it isn't.

In terms of what it would look like then it would,look as I have described.  It would be visible but only if you were outside and looking in the right direction at the right time for the 30 seconds or so that it was visible in the sky.  AND there are reports from people who did see something, but who probably didn't understand what they were looking at.  I suspect others saw it too but never made such reports, so there will be no documented evidence of this.


If its more like a big conventional weapon then why bother with a nuke  ! ?  The deviation is slight but noticeable and may be due to weather or something that scared them in or near to the forest.  Well we really do need as much evidence as possible and for this particular theory there doesnt seem to be any at all  !  ?

I think given the times there was a technological race on.  The tactical device stopped armies but did not destroy infrastructure. You would not want to fall behind in the game.

Agree there are other reasons and possibilities and I am going to explore these also.

There’s plenty of evidence to support the hypothesis. But Given the possible cover up I doubt it is going to just knock on the door and say here I am. Go have to look hard.

Can you explain Doroschenko ‘s oedema or Rustem’s ice bed? Can you explain Rustem one boot? Can you explain the proponderance of socks, gloves in pockets, ski jackets unzipped? Why did they build a den?  Why did authorities ask for radiation checks?

This hypothesis provides credible answers.
 

January 30, 2019, 11:56:10 PM
Reply #91
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
The low yield nuke theory in combination with a covert op (Some group members) can explain a lot of things.

  • The report of lights in the sky, e.g. the reflections of a plane heading toward the Dead Mountain or the explosion itself causing strange strobostobic lights and orbs through a snow storm and causing strange reflections on the clouds hovering over the Dead Mountain
  • The deviation from the planned route and the location of the tent (receive radio signals)
  • The existence of so many cameras. They were expensive and not available for the common ppl.
  • Tins with wires etc.-> Kolevatov's device in combination with pyrit from the abandoned mine.
  • The detection of nuclear contamination on some of the clothes (maybe the bomb was not very perfect. More like a dirty neutron bomb)
  • NO2 as a byproduct of nuclear explosions causing edemas (Doroschenko)
  • Possible conflicts or fights among the group members
  • Even the possibility of small snow slabs (No super avalances)
  • The fact that some of the members didn't seem to behave like freezing ppl. The air around the explosion could have been heated for some time.
  • The fact that 4 group members didn't try to get back to the tent because of the radiation. They were waiting. They were better dressed and had shoes but didn't try to get back to the tent.
  • The interpretation that they built a lookout post on the cedar
  • The possibility of the presence of Mansi People. They would have wanted to know what happened... Who would they blame?
  • The absence of at least two diaries (Kolevatov's and Thibeaux's). There are suggestions that the military was on site before the search party.
  • The picture «Three heads»
  • Restricted access to the area for THREE years although the Dyatlov group died of hypothermia and a compelling force...

Still unexplained:

  • Missing shoes
  • The sock business
  • Cuts in the tent
  • Missing eyeballs


Your theory, if that is what it can be called, doesnt really explain much at all. All you are offering is POSSIBLE THIS AND POSSIBLE THAT  ! ? And the usual ASSUMPTIONS.

To be accurate, it is a hypothesis rather than a theory.  There are no theories for the DPI.

If you read the original post it presents a narrative that attempts to explain the events of the night.  I think it presents a possible explanation for many things, including:

Why Semyon had his camera, and why many of the group were outside the tent watching or observing this test.

Why they left the camp site.without their shoes - immediate distress caused by high concentration of NO2

Why they chose the Cedar tree - tall enough to climb above a layer of toxic smog.

How they got many of their injuries - climbing tree (small scratches and abrasions), falling out of the tree - losing consciousness due to the delayed effects of NO2 poisoning which slowly causes inflammation of the lungs, Odema, methemoglobin and hypoxia.  Later posts examine the chest injuries in detail including breaking forces, which are entirely consistent with falling out of a tree onto the ground.

Why they built the den - because the people injured falling out of the tree meant they could not attempt to go back to the tent.

Ultimately it explains the strange deaths of those with non life threatening injuries and who obviously didn't die of hypothermia.  - NO2 poisoning.

Dominovprovides the background and context for the whole thing and may explain what they were doing there.  Dominovs observations of the clothes clearly shows that hypothermia was not their biggest worry.

Well I think we will find that THEORY and HYPOTHESIS and SPECULATION are all the same terms. Any way whatever you want to call it. I say it still lacks strength. We dont even know if the so called DEN was in fact a DEN. We dont know the exact sequence of events at the TENT and if any of the Group were already outside the TENT when the EVENT happened.

There are things in this mystery that we will never know for sure.  Some the details like where exactly was each person when it all started . All that can be done is to try and make the most credible argument using the information available.  However there are lots of important facts. It’s kind of like finding a jigsaw puzzle with lots of pieces missing. All you can do is put together the ones you do have and try to sense of the missing pieces.
 

January 31, 2019, 10:50:30 AM
Reply #92
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I am under the impression that a tactical nuke (low yield) at any altitude would have been heard and seen by hundreds of people and very obvious.

Yes it would be visible for some distance. Sound would depend on wind speed and direction but would be weakly audible from distance.

However it would not last long.  Bright flash would last several seconds.  Fire ball 500 metres would last 10 to 20 seconds at a guess .

These devices are not like the massively devastating images usually portrayed on our tv screens.  They are tactical. Designed to be used to stop advancing armies by Capet bombing them.  Designed to take people out via radiation blast rather than infrastructure.

500 metre fire ball would be visible from 70km as an orange orb slightly smaller than the moon would look and last probably a maximum of 30 seconds at a rough guess.


How do you know what the particular effects would be when you dont even know the yield of any such weapon alleged to have been involved  !  ?  This is SPECULATION PILED UPON SPECULATION.

It was either a tactical nuke or it wasn't a nuke at all.  Why? Because a standard fission device would have left more significant evidence in terms of flattened burned trees etc.  A fusion device would be a whole new ball game.  They would never have found the group.  They maybe would find their shadows burned into the rocks where they had once stood.

A tactical nuke would only be several kilotonnes.  This is still a big explosion but more like big conventional weapon.  If it was more than this it wouldn't be tactical.

Dominov is correct when he talks about the development of these tactical devices (late 1950s to early 1960s). he is also right to suspect the covert op.  Nobody seems to be able to explain why they deviated from route.  Nothing in diaries?  What was the device Kolevatov had? It might seem unimportant but until we know what it was it isn't.

In terms of what it would look like then it would,look as I have described.  It would be visible but only if you were outside and looking in the right direction at the right time for the 30 seconds or so that it was visible in the sky.  AND there are reports from people who did see something, but who probably didn't understand what they were looking at.  I suspect others saw it too but never made such reports, so there will be no documented evidence of this.


If its more like a big conventional weapon then why bother with a nuke  ! ?  The deviation is slight but noticeable and may be due to weather or something that scared them in or near to the forest.  Well we really do need as much evidence as possible and for this particular theory there doesnt seem to be any at all  !  ?

I think given the times there was a technological race on.  The tactical device stopped armies but did not destroy infrastructure. You would not want to fall behind in the game.

Agree there are other reasons and possibilities and I am going to explore these also.

There’s plenty of evidence to support the hypothesis. But Given the possible cover up I doubt it is going to just knock on the door and say here I am. Go have to look hard.

Can you explain Doroschenko ‘s oedema or Rustem’s ice bed? Can you explain Rustem one boot? Can you explain the proponderance of socks, gloves in pockets, ski jackets unzipped? Why did they build a den?  Why did authorities ask for radiation checks?

This hypothesis provides credible answers.


Well a nuke doesnt necessarily explain Doroschenko's oedema or Rustem's ice bed  !  Or Rustem's one boot ! Or the proponderance of socks, gloves in pockets, ski jackets or whathaveyou ! Any thing could explain them.
DB
 

January 31, 2019, 10:52:53 AM
Reply #93
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
The low yield nuke theory in combination with a covert op (Some group members) can explain a lot of things.

  • The report of lights in the sky, e.g. the reflections of a plane heading toward the Dead Mountain or the explosion itself causing strange strobostobic lights and orbs through a snow storm and causing strange reflections on the clouds hovering over the Dead Mountain
  • The deviation from the planned route and the location of the tent (receive radio signals)
  • The existence of so many cameras. They were expensive and not available for the common ppl.
  • Tins with wires etc.-> Kolevatov's device in combination with pyrit from the abandoned mine.
  • The detection of nuclear contamination on some of the clothes (maybe the bomb was not very perfect. More like a dirty neutron bomb)
  • NO2 as a byproduct of nuclear explosions causing edemas (Doroschenko)
  • Possible conflicts or fights among the group members
  • Even the possibility of small snow slabs (No super avalances)
  • The fact that some of the members didn't seem to behave like freezing ppl. The air around the explosion could have been heated for some time.
  • The fact that 4 group members didn't try to get back to the tent because of the radiation. They were waiting. They were better dressed and had shoes but didn't try to get back to the tent.
  • The interpretation that they built a lookout post on the cedar
  • The possibility of the presence of Mansi People. They would have wanted to know what happened... Who would they blame?
  • The absence of at least two diaries (Kolevatov's and Thibeaux's). There are suggestions that the military was on site before the search party.
  • The picture «Three heads»
  • Restricted access to the area for THREE years although the Dyatlov group died of hypothermia and a compelling force...

Still unexplained:

  • Missing shoes
  • The sock business
  • Cuts in the tent
  • Missing eyeballs


Your theory, if that is what it can be called, doesnt really explain much at all. All you are offering is POSSIBLE THIS AND POSSIBLE THAT  ! ? And the usual ASSUMPTIONS.

To be accurate, it is a hypothesis rather than a theory.  There are no theories for the DPI.

If you read the original post it presents a narrative that attempts to explain the events of the night.  I think it presents a possible explanation for many things, including:

Why Semyon had his camera, and why many of the group were outside the tent watching or observing this test.

Why they left the camp site.without their shoes - immediate distress caused by high concentration of NO2

Why they chose the Cedar tree - tall enough to climb above a layer of toxic smog.

How they got many of their injuries - climbing tree (small scratches and abrasions), falling out of the tree - losing consciousness due to the delayed effects of NO2 poisoning which slowly causes inflammation of the lungs, Odema, methemoglobin and hypoxia.  Later posts examine the chest injuries in detail including breaking forces, which are entirely consistent with falling out of a tree onto the ground.

Why they built the den - because the people injured falling out of the tree meant they could not attempt to go back to the tent.

Ultimately it explains the strange deaths of those with non life threatening injuries and who obviously didn't die of hypothermia.  - NO2 poisoning.

Dominovprovides the background and context for the whole thing and may explain what they were doing there.  Dominovs observations of the clothes clearly shows that hypothermia was not their biggest worry.

Well I think we will find that THEORY and HYPOTHESIS and SPECULATION are all the same terms. Any way whatever you want to call it. I say it still lacks strength. We dont even know if the so called DEN was in fact a DEN. We dont know the exact sequence of events at the TENT and if any of the Group were already outside the TENT when the EVENT happened.

There are things in this mystery that we will never know for sure.  Some the details like where exactly was each person when it all started . All that can be done is to try and make the most credible argument using the information available.  However there are lots of important facts. It’s kind of like finding a jigsaw puzzle with lots of pieces missing. All you can do is put together the ones you do have and try to sense of the missing pieces.

Problem is there are lots of possible explanations and its virtually impossible to say given the lack of evidence which explanation is the strongest.
DB
 

January 31, 2019, 03:06:24 PM
Reply #94
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Well a nuke doesnt necessarily explain Doroschenko's oedema or Rustem's ice bed  !  Or Rustem's one boot ! Or the proponderance of socks, gloves in pockets, ski jackets or whathaveyou ! Any thing could explain them.
Report to moderator     Logged
DB


It does explain it in terms of the cloud of toxic NO2 as per the original narrative.

The clothing provides evidence that they were not as worried about the cold as the investigation makes out.  Yes the cold was dangerous, but they had other problems like not being able to breath effectively.
 

January 31, 2019, 03:30:22 PM
Reply #95
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Problem is there are lots of possible explanations and its virtually impossible to say given the lack of evidence which explanation is the strongest.
Report to moderator     Logged
DB

Yes, there are lots of possible explanations, but there is only one true explanation.  There are also separate elements to the mystery, and for each element you pin down, you eliminate many of the possible explanations, or at least demonstrate that they are extremely unlikely.

Example - Lyuda's injuries.  Single large and very fast impact, with no obvious secondary large impacts.  She fell and hit the ground front on.  Crushed ribs, crushed nose, massive bruise on front of femur  and strange movement of  hyoid bone. 

If it was a shock wave and she was standing up then it could have easily thrown her up to 50 metres horizontally in which case you would expect additional significant injuries.  Same for Semyon and Thibo.
 

February 02, 2019, 04:56:54 PM
Reply #96
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Well a nuke doesnt necessarily explain Doroschenko's oedema or Rustem's ice bed  !  Or Rustem's one boot ! Or the proponderance of socks, gloves in pockets, ski jackets or whathaveyou ! Any thing could explain them.
Report to moderator     Logged
DB


It does explain it in terms of the cloud of toxic NO2 as per the original narrative.

The clothing provides evidence that they were not as worried about the cold as the investigation makes out.  Yes the cold was dangerous, but they had other problems like not being able to breath effectively.

Well its true that most of them left the tent ill equipped to survive the serious freezing weather conditions.  But some of them were later found well equipped.  Suggests to me that they all left the Tent in a hurry with all their mental faculties intact and then about a mile from the Tent made a last ditch effort to survive.
DB
 

February 02, 2019, 05:01:14 PM
Reply #97
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Problem is there are lots of possible explanations and its virtually impossible to say given the lack of evidence which explanation is the strongest.
Report to moderator     Logged
DB

Yes, there are lots of possible explanations, but there is only one true explanation.  There are also separate elements to the mystery, and for each element you pin down, you eliminate many of the possible explanations, or at least demonstrate that they are extremely unlikely.

Example - Lyuda's injuries.  Single large and very fast impact, with no obvious secondary large impacts.  She fell and hit the ground front on.  Crushed ribs, crushed nose, massive bruise on front of femur  and strange movement of  hyoid bone. 

If it was a shock wave and she was standing up then it could have easily thrown her up to 50 metres horizontally in which case you would expect additional significant injuries.  Same for Semyon and Thibo.

Its still impossible to say without further evidence.
DB
 

February 17, 2019, 12:43:59 PM
Reply #98
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
A test for the low yield nuke hypothesis, if anyone ever has the opportunity.

Ground core samples on the approach to Kholat Syakle and on Kholat Syakhl should help to conclude on this.

Look for sudden spike in strontium 90 about 60 years ago.

Also, an examination of tree rings of an old tree in the forested area near the cedar tree. 

Look for sudden change in growth rate due to change in acidity and nitrate concentration of the soil, nitrates being a good fertiliser.

Also look for strontium 90 spike in tree ring.

 

February 17, 2019, 04:52:22 PM
Reply #99
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
A test for the low yield nuke hypothesis, if anyone ever has the opportunity.

Ground core samples on the approach to Kholat Syakle and on Kholat Syakhl should help to conclude on this.

Look for sudden spike in strontium 90 about 60 years ago.

Also, an examination of tree rings of an old tree in the forested area near the cedar tree. 

Look for sudden change in growth rate due to change in acidity and nitrate concentration of the soil, nitrates being a good fertiliser.

Also look for strontium 90 spike in tree ring.

Iam sure that over the last 60 years plenty of people have had the opportunity to test for RADIOACTIVITY. And the new investigation in March should be interesting.
DB
 

February 18, 2019, 01:07:15 AM
Reply #100
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
A test for the low yield nuke hypothesis, if anyone ever has the opportunity.

Ground core samples on the approach to Kholat Syakle and on Kholat Syakhl should help to conclude on this.

Look for sudden spike in strontium 90 about 60 years ago.

Also, an examination of tree rings of an old tree in the forested area near the cedar tree. 

Look for sudden change in growth rate due to change in acidity and nitrate concentration of the soil, nitrates being a good fertiliser.

Also look for strontium 90 spike in tree ring.

Iam sure that over the last 60 years plenty of people have had the opportunity to test for RADIOACTIVITY. And the new investigation in March should be interesting.

Radiochemical analysis for strontium 90 in the tree rings would probably conclude whether there was any nuclear involvement.  So worth doing IMO.  It's probably one key piece of evidence that would still be there today if there was nuclear involvement.  Obviously if there isn't a step change in strontium 90 then could rule it out properly.  They would need to use a reference sample too as there is likely to be some increase in strontium from other nuclear tests around the world so would need to look for acute step change that shows higher local concentrations that can be explained by comparison with reference sample.
 

March 12, 2019, 09:37:53 AM
Reply #101
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Had another thought about the tent.

The shock wave from a nuclear device is estimated to be about 3psi overpressure at the tent.

This would have placed the total force on the tent at about 3600kgf. Possible enough to cause significant damage and make it unusable.
 

March 13, 2019, 01:50:26 PM
Reply #102
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Had another thought about the tent.

The shock wave from a nuclear device is estimated to be about 3psi overpressure at the tent.

This would have placed the total force on the tent at about 3600kgf. Possible enough to cause significant damage and make it unusable.


And as I mentioned elsewhere, we could also have expected plenty of RADIOACTIVE PARTICLES to have been found at the Tent. And apparently non were.
DB
 

March 13, 2019, 04:03:59 PM
Reply #103
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Had another thought about the tent.

The shock wave from a nuclear device is estimated to be about 3psi overpressure at the tent.

This would have placed the total force on the tent at about 3600kgf. Possible enough to cause significant damage and make it unusable.


And as I mentioned elsewhere, we could also have expected plenty of RADIOACTIVE PARTICLES to have been found at the Tent. And apparently non were.

We don't really know if any contamination was found at the tent.
 

March 14, 2019, 02:39:01 PM
Reply #104
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Had another thought about the tent.

The shock wave from a nuclear device is estimated to be about 3psi overpressure at the tent.

This would have placed the total force on the tent at about 3600kgf. Possible enough to cause significant damage and make it unusable.


And as I mentioned elsewhere, we could also have expected plenty of RADIOACTIVE PARTICLES to have been found at the Tent. And apparently non were.

We don't really know if any contamination was found at the tent.

Well I thought you may say that, and of course you are correct. We dont know a lot of things. The missing Tent ! ? I wonder if any tests were carried out on it elsewhere once it was taken away by the Authorities, never to appear again or even get a mention apart from the stuff we have been fed regarding the cuts or rips. And that goes for all the Gear in the Tent as well. What became of it ! ?
DB
 

March 14, 2019, 03:49:12 PM
Reply #105
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Had another thought about the tent.

The shock wave from a nuclear device is estimated to be about 3psi overpressure at the tent.

This would have placed the total force on the tent at about 3600kgf. Possible enough to cause significant damage and make it unusable.


And as I mentioned elsewhere, we could also have expected plenty of RADIOACTIVE PARTICLES to have been found at the Tent. And apparently non were.

We don't really know if any contamination was found at the tent.

Well I thought you may say that, and of course you are correct. We dont know a lot of things. The missing Tent ! ? I wonder if any tests were carried out on it elsewhere once it was taken away by the Authorities, never to appear again or even get a mention apart from the stuff we have been fed regarding the cuts or rips. And that goes for all the Gear in the Tent as well. What became of it ! ?

After the case was closed, it is possible that the evidence was simply poorly looked after?  60 years is a long time to keep things properly stored and catlogued.  Or it deliberately disappeared?  We will probably never know.

The radiation tests and surveys is something that sticks out like a sore thumb in the DPI.  The results of those tests were positive for the clothing.  If the clothing of all the rav 4 were positive, then it's more than likely that the contamination was more widespread. 

It's possible that the contamination is just a coincidence.  It could be the result of fallout from past tests, or nuclear accidents.  Also given the times they were living in there was probably a fair share of paranoia about nuclear and maybe this is why they brought in the radiation detectors.

Again, the answer will lie in the tree rings.  They used the same technique at Hiroshima and showed that there was a large spike of strontium 90.

Regards

Star man
 

March 15, 2019, 01:10:22 PM
Reply #106
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Had another thought about the tent.

The shock wave from a nuclear device is estimated to be about 3psi overpressure at the tent.

This would have placed the total force on the tent at about 3600kgf. Possible enough to cause significant damage and make it unusable.


And as I mentioned elsewhere, we could also have expected plenty of RADIOACTIVE PARTICLES to have been found at the Tent. And apparently non were.

We don't really know if any contamination was found at the tent.

Well I thought you may say that, and of course you are correct. We dont know a lot of things. The missing Tent ! ? I wonder if any tests were carried out on it elsewhere once it was taken away by the Authorities, never to appear again or even get a mention apart from the stuff we have been fed regarding the cuts or rips. And that goes for all the Gear in the Tent as well. What became of it ! ?

After the case was closed, it is possible that the evidence was simply poorly looked after?  60 years is a long time to keep things properly stored and catlogued.  Or it deliberately disappeared?  We will probably never know.

The radiation tests and surveys is something that sticks out like a sore thumb in the DPI.  The results of those tests were positive for the clothing.  If the clothing of all the rav 4 were positive, then it's more than likely that the contamination was more widespread. 

It's possible that the contamination is just a coincidence.  It could be the result of fallout from past tests, or nuclear accidents.  Also given the times they were living in there was probably a fair share of paranoia about nuclear and maybe this is why they brought in the radiation detectors.

Again, the answer will lie in the tree rings.  They used the same technique at Hiroshima and showed that there was a large spike of strontium 90.

Regards

Star man

It seems more likely that the Tent and other Equipment was kept under lock and key. We know that the Authorities closed the Dyatlov Case down and the area very quickly after the last 4 bodies were found. So that must suggest something very important. Could that importance relate to RADIATION CONTAMINATION of the tent and the other Equipment  !  ?  Or maybe they just had to keep under lock and key anything related to the Event, except the bodies that were buried, of course.
DB
 

March 15, 2019, 05:18:36 PM
Reply #107
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Had another thought about the tent.

The shock wave from a nuclear device is estimated to be about 3psi overpressure at the tent.

This would have placed the total force on the tent at about 3600kgf. Possible enough to cause significant damage and make it unusable.


And as I mentioned elsewhere, we could also have expected plenty of RADIOACTIVE PARTICLES to have been found at the Tent. And apparently non were.

We don't really know if any contamination was found at the tent.

Well I thought you may say that, and of course you are correct. We dont know a lot of things. The missing Tent ! ? I wonder if any tests were carried out on it elsewhere once it was taken away by the Authorities, never to appear again or even get a mention apart from the stuff we have been fed regarding the cuts or rips. And that goes for all the Gear in the Tent as well. What became of it ! ?

After the case was closed, it is possible that the evidence was simply poorly looked after?  60 years is a long time to keep things properly stored and catlogued.  Or it deliberately disappeared?  We will probably never know.

The radiation tests and surveys is something that sticks out like a sore thumb in the DPI.  The results of those tests were positive for the clothing.  If the clothing of all the rav 4 were positive, then it's more than likely that the contamination was more widespread. 

It's possible that the contamination is just a coincidence.  It could be the result of fallout from past tests, or nuclear accidents.  Also given the times they were living in there was probably a fair share of paranoia about nuclear and maybe this is why they brought in the radiation detectors.

Again, the answer will lie in the tree rings.  They used the same technique at Hiroshima and showed that there was a large spike of strontium 90.

Regards

Star man

It seems more likely that the Tent and other Equipment was kept under lock and key. We know that the Authorities closed the Dyatlov Case down and the area very quickly after the last 4 bodies were found. So that must suggest something very important. Could that importance relate to RADIATION CONTAMINATION of the tent and the other Equipment  !  ?  Or maybe they just had to keep under lock and key anything related to the Event, except the bodies that were buried, of course.

From the witness statements on Ivanov and his behaviour at the ravine following their discoveries it seems to me that he was no longer investigating the incident.  Kind of like he already knew what had happened and was only concerned with removing the last pieces of evidence.  But then why did he want the radiation test of the clothes carried out.  Also, I find it hard to believe that the radiological analysis of the clothes was done before the bodies were recovered, so why were the helicopter pilots concerned about zinc coffins?

Regards

Star man
 

April 10, 2019, 10:35:30 AM
Reply #108

Radim

Guest
Your theory can be proved or disaproved by simple test:

1) Go in Dead Mountine, take dozimeter. After 60 years will be radiation spotted.

2) Make the same test with dead bodies. Also on their bodies should be according your theory contamined.

3) for to be sure, contact the Dyatlavov comunity who carries their founded things and make measurement by dozimeter..

Sorry to say that, but
your theory doesnt make for me for 99,99 periodical % sence..
 

April 10, 2019, 03:33:59 PM
Reply #109
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Your theory can be proved or disaproved by simple test:

1) Go in Dead Mountine, take dozimeter. After 60 years will be radiation spotted.

2) Make the same test with dead bodies. Also on their bodies should be according your theory contamined.

3) for to be sure, contact the Dyatlavov comunity who carries their founded things and make measurement by dozimeter..

Sorry to say that, but
your theory doesnt make for me for 99,99 periodical % sence..

The test that it is required to prove or disprove the theory is to take tree ring samples from the area and analyse for strontium 90 spikes and caesium 137 concentration.

Regards
Star man
 

April 11, 2019, 02:32:28 PM
Reply #110

Radim

Guest
Your theory can be proved or disaproved by simple test:

1) Go in Dead Mountine, take dozimeter. After 60 years will be radiation spotted.

2) Make the same test with dead bodies. Also on their bodies should be according your theory contamined.

3) for to be sure, contact the Dyatlavov comunity who carries their founded things and make measurement by dozimeter..

Sorry to say that, but


your theory doesnt make for me for 99,99 periodical % sence..

The test that it is required to prove or disprove the theory is to take tree ring samples from the area and analyse for strontium 90 spikes and caesium 137 concentration.

Regards
Star man


?????? ".....analyse for strontium 90 spikes and caesium 137 concentration.
......" what the hell happend to you?
You probably never work with dozimeter. If you take edos and you will go somewhere where is residual Gama ray, they you will find it.

By the way, take dozimeter, turn it on and turn the microvawe machine ´.. You will be surprised (maybe).
 

April 11, 2019, 02:40:52 PM
Reply #111

Radim

Guest
Why nuclear, why not chemical? Why not seismic weapons, why not biological weapons?
The more I read some stupidity here, the less I wonder.

I don't want to underestimate you, but you're crazy.
 

April 11, 2019, 04:37:31 PM
Reply #112
Offline

gypsy


Why nuclear, why not chemical? Why not seismic weapons, why not biological weapons?
The more I read some stupidity here, the less I wonder.

I don't want to underestimate you, but you're crazy.

Why exactly is the weapon test (gone wrong) theory crazy? It fits the time frame, the behaviour of the people involved including the investigators and we know for sure that bombs and other military equipment was being tested somewhere and sometime in 1959. It is a completely logical line of thought along with the murder theory if we have 9 dead bodies found in this condition. Plausible version of events for me. Needs just some verification just like any other theory.
 

April 11, 2019, 11:40:57 PM
Reply #113
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Why nuclear, why not chemical? Why not seismic weapons, why not biological weapons?
The more I read some stupidity here, the less I wonder.

I don't want to underestimate you, but you're crazy.

So what is your opinion on the distribution of gamma radiation and the likely background rates some 60 years after the event?  What radioisotopes and what gamma energy levels shoul the doseimeres be set to?
What type of dosimeter would you recommend?

I personally haven’t ruled out any of the other theories.  I have presented a theory that fits the findings of the investigation and in particular the radiation findings which sticks out like a sore thumb.

Which method of analysis do you think would give the better more accurate and informative results:

1. Dosimeter
2 radiochemical analysis

Regards
Star man
 

April 12, 2019, 04:31:09 AM
Reply #114

Radim

Guest
Why nuclear, why not chemical? Why not seismic weapons, why not biological weapons?
The more I read some stupidity here, the less I wonder.

I don't want to underestimate you, but you're crazy.

Why exactly is the weapon test (gone wrong) theory crazy? It fits the time frame, the behaviour of the people involved including the investigators and we know for sure that bombs and other military equipment was being tested somewhere and sometime in 1959. It is a completely logical line of thought along with the murder theory if we have 9 dead bodies found in this condition. Plausible version of events for me. Needs just some verification just like any other theory.

Guys,
1) LOW attitude? if military drop a a nuclear cartridge than the aircraft which makes drop, must be in very very high attitude.

2) Each nuclear test is a little bit amazing event. Everybody from military and defence goverment want to see and record the efects. Camera staff, photogrpahers, etc.. Take in mind that about the most of Soviet nuclear tests knew also their enemy (USA and west inteligence services. and contra side.
Nuclear tests is also as perceived as boasting event. North Korea is making for example nuclear tests absolutely media open. They demonstrate the force. They show of force.

Where is the presence of observers and delegations? Do you think some generals will go in snow somewhere in cold mountines to watch an effects of nuclear bomb by their own feet without field kitchen? Where are the vehicles prints? Where are the prints of helicopter which moved delegation? Broken bounds, fired cigaretes. Almost everybody at this time smoked a cigarettes, etc, etc..
Guys, at the accident area was nothing founded.

That somebody "found" "some" aluminium plate in Death mountine is because he also bring it there to be interest.

3) I have never seen a nuclear test in difficult terrain - hills, woods.. This makes in flat terrain surface - Again, and again, and again. Military needs to observe the drop point and drop effects. They need to evaluate it. The drop zone area are cordoned. To make a nuclear test you need place observers to see for decimals of kilometers. = flat terrain.


Soviet military was not stupid. Soviet army was one of the strongest army in the world. Maybe the strongest. They were strong because their "top tip" staff was clever and maturity. (now I dont mean some last company sergeant).

They have to followed the internal directions. It is not like some general will wake up in the morning and during morning parade/call he will say: "OK, comrades, today we will make a drop of nuclear weapon nearby the Death mountine...Go and do it!" No, no no no no..

4) Your point: "was being tested somewhere and sometime in 1959".. Of course their were tested! Was time of cold war, 14 years ago from WWII. It is more than sure that some of new soviet weapons were tested somewhere in 1959.
I will not so hard to you if you will say some more silly theory. For example that they were killed (by mistake) because of testing of new artillery howitzer. But all this theorys are wrong and silly.


5) Founded GAMA ray was negligible. They were jsut polluted a bit from history. The quantity they found on clothes was not lethal in any case. By the way, why were not contamined others?

If you will warm your food in microwawe machine and I will take a dozimeter and start measuring, than you will be Gama rayed also. Maybe the  even in a similar amount as like them. They could contamine everywhere (in university during scientific works, etc.) The source of X ray can be everywhere.


According to your investigative analysis:
If you will go to Death Mountine to take measurement, take just classic dosimeter. If you found something in continual surface, after that make radiochemical analysis.
If you will go in Death mountine, take also the iron detector and shovel. Why? It is very very for long time to explain.

But just a little in scople short sentences:
Because If there was according some theorys some violent, than there probably must be weapons. (Guns). To force 9 young strong people without resistant, you need circa 14-20 people without guns. Just by hands or knifes armored.

If there will be 3-5 guys with weapons (gulag prisoners), than it is acceptable. But if there will be a fight without gunshots body wounds, than they probably could shot in the air or in ground to make a treat. So take the iron detector, go and look for shoted munition fragments.
This is maybe logical but It is also wrong. (I think, but it is the most reasonable crime caused by different people in Dyatlavov pass.) But I dont belive to it also. (98% circa).

Radim








« Last Edit: April 12, 2019, 04:36:01 AM by Radim »
 

April 12, 2019, 07:22:40 AM
Reply #115
Offline

gypsy


Why nuclear, why not chemical? Why not seismic weapons, why not biological weapons?
The more I read some stupidity here, the less I wonder.

I don't want to underestimate you, but you're crazy.

Why exactly is the weapon test (gone wrong) theory crazy? It fits the time frame, the behaviour of the people involved including the investigators and we know for sure that bombs and other military equipment was being tested somewhere and sometime in 1959. It is a completely logical line of thought along with the murder theory if we have 9 dead bodies found in this condition. Plausible version of events for me. Needs just some verification just like any other theory.

Guys,
1) LOW attitude? if military drop a a nuclear cartridge than the aircraft which makes drop, must be in very very high attitude.

2) Each nuclear test is a little bit amazing event. Everybody from military and defence goverment want to see and record the efects. Camera staff, photogrpahers, etc.. Take in mind that about the most of Soviet nuclear tests knew also their enemy (USA and west inteligence services. and contra side.
Nuclear tests is also as perceived as boasting event. North Korea is making for example nuclear tests absolutely media open. They demonstrate the force. They show of force.

Where is the presence of observers and delegations? Do you think some generals will go in snow somewhere in cold mountines to watch an effects of nuclear bomb by their own feet without field kitchen? Where are the vehicles prints? Where are the prints of helicopter which moved delegation? Broken bounds, fired cigaretes. Almost everybody at this time smoked a cigarettes, etc, etc..
Guys, at the accident area was nothing founded.

That somebody "found" "some" aluminium plate in Death mountine is because he also bring it there to be interest.

3) I have never seen a nuclear test in difficult terrain - hills, woods.. This makes in flat terrain surface - Again, and again, and again. Military needs to observe the drop point and drop effects. They need to evaluate it. The drop zone area are cordoned. To make a nuclear test you need place observers to see for decimals of kilometers. = flat terrain.


Soviet military was not stupid. Soviet army was one of the strongest army in the world. Maybe the strongest. They were strong because their "top tip" staff was clever and maturity. (now I dont mean some last company sergeant).

They have to followed the internal directions. It is not like some general will wake up in the morning and during morning parade/call he will say: "OK, comrades, today we will make a drop of nuclear weapon nearby the Death mountine...Go and do it!" No, no no no no..

4) Your point: "was being tested somewhere and sometime in 1959".. Of course their were tested! Was time of cold war, 14 years ago from WWII. It is more than sure that some of new soviet weapons were tested somewhere in 1959.
I will not so hard to you if you will say some more silly theory. For example that they were killed (by mistake) because of testing of new artillery howitzer. But all this theorys are wrong and silly.


5) Founded GAMA ray was negligible. They were jsut polluted a bit from history. The quantity they found on clothes was not lethal in any case. By the way, why were not contamined others?

If you will warm your food in microwawe machine and I will take a dozimeter and start measuring, than you will be Gama rayed also. Maybe the  even in a similar amount as like them. They could contamine everywhere (in university during scientific works, etc.) The source of X ray can be everywhere.


According to your investigative analysis:
If you will go to Death Mountine to take measurement, take just classic dosimeter. If you found something in continual surface, after that make radiochemical analysis.
If you will go in Death mountine, take also the iron detector and shovel. Why? It is very very for long time to explain.

But just a little in scople short sentences:
Because If there was according some theorys some violent, than there probably must be weapons. (Guns). To force 9 young strong people without resistant, you need circa 14-20 people without guns. Just by hands or knifes armored.

If there will be 3-5 guys with weapons (gulag prisoners), than it is acceptable. But if there will be a fight without gunshots body wounds, than they probably could shot in the air or in ground to make a treat. So take the iron detector, go and look for shoted munition fragments.
This is maybe logical but It is also wrong. (I think, but it is the most reasonable crime caused by different people in Dyatlavov pass.) But I dont belive to it also. (98% circa).

Radim

1. We do not know what kind of device was allegedly used or dropped from. It is just a theory that fits a good part of the evidence. Yes, it is also true that much is left for speculation because the investigators did not do a very good job and wrote a weird conclusion.

2./3. Only successful nuclear tests are amazing and suitable for demonstration . I am pretty sure that a test event gone wrong would be classified just like any other military activity (it is actually written in legal documents) . As written before, it was not necessarily a large device and it did not necessarily explode on the ground.

No observers or delegations - maybe the "device was dropped on the wrong place? Not so long ago, USAF hit Prague instead of Dresden due to navigation error. Pilots are not stupid but errors happen all the time, not to mention during testing of new technologies. Especially night bombing was far from accurate at that time. I wrote some time before that even a threat of being killed from the air is enough to trigger weird behaviour and/or possible conflicts among people.

The alluminium plate - I think it was explained before that is from later time than 1959, unrelated to the DPI.

4. If the Soviet officers said that there was no test and no military incident in the area instead of confiscating the evidence and introducing the exclusion zone for 3 years, there would me less speculation about this version. It is again a legitimate version to consider for investigation. There is a suspicion for sure.

5. hard to conclude, we do not have the exact numbers measured in 1959, only testimonies. And yes, the clothes could have been contaminated before the incident. Again, no data available to compare.

Apart from taking measurement or samples, the line of "new" investigation could start with declassifying of documents related to that time and area. Every single sortie flown or test was recorded and archived. However it may be too late and all evidence destroyed. Is was absolutely legitimate to open criminal investigation, just the standard was very poor as if the investigators and/or prosecutors were not willing to solve the case properly, or were told not to. The theory of military involvement could be absolutely wrong, but we do not know that until this version is either confirmed or ruled out. The different causes of death and nature of injuries suggests human involvement in some way, I personally think that an animal attack or natural phenomenon is not enough (still could have played a part) to explain everything.

 

April 12, 2019, 08:21:09 AM
Reply #116

Radim

Guest
Sorry to say that, but this is still the same old song.
You are trying to representative the most difficult theory among you accept, that this expedition pass was caused by something very similar - elk(s) attack.

I quit this conversation, because it is very very silly and weak theory.

Radim
 

April 12, 2019, 08:47:16 AM
Reply #117
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Sorry to say that, but this is still the same old song.
You are trying to representative the most difficult theory among you accept, that this expedition pass was caused by something very similar - elk(s) attack.

I quit this conversation, because it is very very silly and weak theory.

Radim

You obviously haven’t understood the underpinning posts. 

A radiochemical analysts of the tree rings will prove or disprove this theory.  The same test was accurately demonstrated at Hiroshima.  Your assumptions and own personal view will not prove or disprove anything.

By the way you did not answer any of my questions?

There is a simple equation that is important:

What is reasonable = function(mindset)

Regards
Star man
 


May 26, 2019, 08:04:18 AM
Reply #119
Offline

Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Quote
A neutron bomb, officially defined as a type of enhanced radiation weapon, is a low yield thermonuclear weapon designed to maximize lethal neutron radiation in the immediate vicinity of the blast while minimizing the physical power of the blast itself

I would think there would still be a significant explosion.. which there wasnt.  Also, you would think this would create MASS amounts of radiation... which there wasn't. 
All theories are flawed....... Get Behind Me Satan !!!