What if a snow glide happened in the ravine?

[sug2h]

Most theories based on avalanche / snowslab / ice glide are suggesting that the event happened near the tent, and made the skiers flee to the treeline.
But what if something else made them flee the tent, and then some sort of snow glide or ice glide happened in the ravine, as the Rav4 were building a den?
I say this because of the injuries suffered by 3 of the Rav4 that could be explained by a large amount of snow hitting them. If those injuries were caused as they were still in the tent, I don't see how they could have managed to walk to the ravine.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. Could this ravine be abrupt enough, or deep enough to cause such an event?

[sarapuk]

Most theories based on avalanche / snowslab / ice glide are suggesting that the event happened near the tent, and made the skiers flee to the treeline.
But what if something else made them flee the tent, and then some sort of snow glide or ice glide happened in the ravine, as the Rav4 were building a den?
I say this because of the injuries suffered by 3 of the Rav4 that could be explained by a large amount of snow hitting them. If those injuries were caused as they were still in the tent, I don't see how they could have managed to walk to the ravine.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. Could this ravine be abrupt enough, or deep enough to cause such an event?

I think you will find that this theory has popped up in other Posts. We dont even know if it was a Den. It would have had to have been one hell of an avalanche etc to cause those injuries to DUBININA.

[Dominov]

Here is the ravine slope and its inclination (green). A mild little slope, nothing more. The wavy shape of the ravine stabilizes the snow in it. Decide for yourself.

[Star man]

Most theories based on avalanche / snowslab / ice glide are suggesting that the event happened near the tent, and made the skiers flee to the treeline.
But what if something else made them flee the tent, and then some sort of snow glide or ice glide happened in the ravine, as the Rav4 were building a den?
I say this because of the injuries suffered by 3 of the Rav4 that could be explained by a large amount of snow hitting them. If those injuries were caused as they were still in the tent, I don't see how they could have managed to walk to the ravine.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. Could this ravine be abrupt enough, or deep enough to cause such an event?

It's unlikely.  WAB posted some pictures of the slope near where the bodies were found.  There is a fair steep localised drop at about 40 degrees.  However the body positions are not consistent with being hit by an avalanche IMO.

[Puchiko]

I think you will find that this theory has popped up in other Posts. We dont even know if it was a Den. It would have had to have been one hell of an avalanche etc to cause those injuries to DUBININA.

I agree with your conclusion regarding Ludmila's injuries - but what else would be than a den? The den appears in all descriptions of the incident, so I've always taken it as fact, although as I'm checking the evidence, all that's photographed are the branches and clothes - was it a cavity when found or was it filled by snow by then?

[Loose}{Cannon]

This is of course, if you believe that snow always falls and accumulates evenly and wind never creates things such as snow-drifts or snow-banks.  How do you know just how high/deep the west bank of the ravine was on Feb 2nd 1959?
 

Askinadzi and Suvorov on the slope of Otorten - photo archive Vladimir Askinadzi

[sarapuk]

This is of course, if you believe that snow always falls and accumulates evenly and wind never creates things such as snow-drifts or snow-banks.  How do you know just how high/deep the west bank of the ravine was on Feb 2nd 1959?
 

Askinadzi and Suvorov on the slope of Otorten - photo archive Vladimir Askinadzi

They are standing at a much higher altitude than the Ravine though. And that mass of snow below them would have not accumulated at the Ravine. And even a mass of snow like that is unlikely to have caused the serious injuries to DUBININA. Many survivors of avalanches having been thrown under such masses of snow and have come out relatively unharmed.

[Loose}{Cannon]

 

[sug2h]

was it a cavity when found or was it filled by snow by then?

it was filled with snow

[Monika]

Most theories based on avalanche / snowslab / ice glide are suggesting that the event happened near the tent, and made the skiers flee to the treeline.
But what if something else made them flee the tent, and then some sort of snow glide or ice glide happened in the ravine, as the Rav4 were building a den?
I say this because of the injuries suffered by 3 of the Rav4 that could be explained by a large amount of snow hitting them. If those injuries were caused as they were still in the tent, I don't see how they could have managed to walk to the ravine.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. Could this ravine be abrupt enough, or deep enough to cause such an event?

The theory of snow hitting them is contradicted by the fact that the Zolotarev camera around his neck was staying intact (only film was damaged by water). How is it possible that a large mass of snow will cause severe injuries like broken ribs and the camera placed just a little higher (on the neck) is undamaged? And he had a notebook and a pencil in his hand, it also contradicts the snow hitting as well as the fall from tree.

[Puchiko]

The theory of snow hitting them is contradicted by the fact that the Zolotarev camera around his neck was staying intact (only film was damaged by water). How is it possible that a large mass of snow will cause severe injuries like broken ribs and the camera placed just a little higher (on the neck) is undamaged? And he had a notebook and a pencil in his hand, it also contradicts the snow hitting as well as the fall from tree.

I agree about the camera, but the existence of the notepad is disputed. The only evidence we have for it is Askinadzi's recent letter to Ural Pathfinder magazine. The whereabouts of the notepad are unknown, it was never filed in evidence or seen by anyone else.

[sug2h]

And he had a notebook and a pencil in his hand, it also contradicts the snow hitting as well as the fall from tree.

And what if he was first hit by the snow, and then, knowing he was about to die, he asked his friends to give him a notepad in order to write a note to his family?

Does anybody know which type of camera it was?

[Loose}{Cannon]

The camera is on a lanyard and able to swing freely.  We don't know its position prior to removing him from the creek, nor where it was located during the impact. 

The notebook was in his pocket, and his hands were in his pocket.  He wasn't found with a notepad clutched in his hand flapping around in the water for months. 

[Monika]

The camera is on a lanyard and able to swing freely.  We don't know its position prior to removing him from the creek, nor where it was located during the impact. 

The notebook was in his pocket, and his hands were in his pocket.  He wasn't found with a notepad clutched in his hand flapping around in the water for months.

He was found with his camera around his neck directly after finding of his body  confirmed  the photo from the crime scene available on internet.  He had to have camera during the injury. After being badly injured, it would be pointless to put a camera around his neck. Why? He did not have the chance to survive, and he had to suffer terrible pains. And someone would lift his head to give him a camera around his neck ?

[Loose}{Cannon]

He had to have camera during the injury.

Who said the camera wasn't around his neck via the lanyard?

Why would anyone think this camera is BOLTED to his chest and not capable of swinging somewhere other then that position in freefall or similar? 

[sarapuk]

I think you will find that this theory has popped up in other Posts. We dont even know if it was a Den. It would have had to have been one hell of an avalanche etc to cause those injuries to DUBININA.

I agree with your conclusion regarding Ludmila's injuries - but what else would be than a den? The den appears in all descriptions of the incident, so I've always taken it as fact, although as I'm checking the evidence, all that's photographed are the branches and clothes - was it a cavity when found or was it filled by snow by then?

All we know is that a search party dug down and eventually found a sort of platform. But does this small platform indicate a DEN  !  ?  I dont see any indications of it being a DEN or CAVITY.

[Bannef]

Thank you for asking that, I had been looking for an answer to whether that theory is likely or not.

I skimmed a study on avalanche deaths. The very few people who actually died from physical trauma did have familiar sounding symptoms - facial abrasions, rib fractures, skull fracture. But the vast majority of deaths were caused by asphyxiation. Of the 56 cases studied, only three people died from physical trauma alone. Asphyxiation killed the rest of them.

Of the four people found in the ravine, their causes of death was listed as rib fractures and internal hemorrhaging for two (Dubinina and Zolotaryov), skull fracture for one (Thibeaux-Brignolle) and hypothermia for one (Kolevatov). An avalanche that caused these deaths would be relatively unique, as it caused massive damage, but covered them with so little snow that they died from their wounds before asphyxiating.

Of course, that is based on the assumption that the medical examiner can distinguish between death caused by wounds and death caused by asphyxiation. I know nothing about autopsies, I can't say.

[Squatch]

Most theories based on avalanche / snowslab / ice glide are suggesting that the event happened near the tent, and made the skiers flee to the treeline.
But what if something else made them flee the tent, and then some sort of snow glide or ice glide happened in the ravine, as the Rav4 were building a den?
I say this because of the injuries suffered by 3 of the Rav4 that could be explained by a large amount of snow hitting them. If those injuries were caused as they were still in the tent, I don't see how they could have managed to walk to the ravine.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. Could this ravine be abrupt enough, or deep enough to cause such an event?

I agree with everything you have said.

The avalanche did not happen at the tent in my opinion. It happened in the ravine. The huge amount of snow above the "den" area and over the bodies seems to indicate massive movement of snow -- enough to cause injury and death.

I would further speculate that Rustem Slobodin barely escaped this with a skull fracture and Igor Dyatlov and Zinaida Kolmogorova escaped relatively unscathed. I think the three of them made for the tent after the ravine avalanche as a last resort. This would explain why the group appeared to "split up" after the cedar tree... because in reality they didn't! They were all together until the ravine disaster and the three survivors then made for the tent.

[RMK]

Most theories based on avalanche / snowslab / ice glide are suggesting that the event happened near the tent, and made the skiers flee to the treeline.
But what if something else made them flee the tent, and then some sort of snow glide or ice glide happened in the ravine, as the Rav4 were building a den?
I say this because of the injuries suffered by 3 of the Rav4 that could be explained by a large amount of snow hitting them. If those injuries were caused as they were still in the tent, I don't see how they could have managed to walk to the ravine.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. Could this ravine be abrupt enough, or deep enough to cause such an event?

I agree with everything you have said.

The avalanche did not happen at the tent in my opinion. It happened in the ravine. The huge amount of snow above the "den" area and over the bodies seems to indicate massive movement of snow -- enough to cause injury and death.

I would further speculate that Rustem Slobodin barely escaped this with a skull fracture and Igor Dyatlov and Zinaida Kolmogorova escaped relatively unscathed. I think the three of them made for the tent after the ravine avalanche as a last resort. This would explain why the group appeared to "split up" after the cedar tree... because in reality they didn't! They were all together until the ravine disaster and the three survivors then made for the tent.

In this scenario you describe, what happened to the two Yuris?  Would they already be dead by the time the avalanche happened in the ravine?

[Manti]

Of course, that is based on the assumption that the medical examiner can distinguish between death caused by wounds and death caused by asphyxiation. I know nothing about autopsies, I can't say.

I have been reading about the same thing, encourage everyone to do so. It does appear that even using modern methods, it is often hard to ascertain the cause of death in both hypothermia and asphyxiation victims. These are mostly determined by ruling out anything else, so if there is no obvious cause of death and the incident happened in a cold environment, it's ruled as hypothermia. If it happened in water or a high altitude or an enclosed space like a cave, it's ruled as asphyxiation. 


But in reality it is often a combination. Avalanche victims buried under snow might die due to asphyxiation but this in turn happens because they couldn't dig themselves out which might be due to trauma, not serious enough to kill on its own but big enough to weaken them. Or hypothermia victims might become disorientated, lose balance, or have hallucinations and fall as a result, sustaining trauma. And so on..

[Squatch]

Most theories based on avalanche / snowslab / ice glide are suggesting that the event happened near the tent, and made the skiers flee to the treeline.
But what if something else made them flee the tent, and then some sort of snow glide or ice glide happened in the ravine, as the Rav4 were building a den?
I say this because of the injuries suffered by 3 of the Rav4 that could be explained by a large amount of snow hitting them. If those injuries were caused as they were still in the tent, I don't see how they could have managed to walk to the ravine.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. Could this ravine be abrupt enough, or deep enough to cause such an event?

I agree with everything you have said.

The avalanche did not happen at the tent in my opinion. It happened in the ravine. The huge amount of snow above the "den" area and over the bodies seems to indicate massive movement of snow -- enough to cause injury and death.

I would further speculate that Rustem Slobodin barely escaped this with a skull fracture and Igor Dyatlov and Zinaida Kolmogorova escaped relatively unscathed. I think the three of them made for the tent after the ravine avalanche as a last resort. This would explain why the group appeared to "split up" after the cedar tree... because in reality they didn't! They were all together until the ravine disaster and the three survivors then made for the tent.

In this scenario you describe, what happened to the two Yuris?  Would they already be dead by the time the avalanche happened in the ravine?

Yes, in my scenario they died at the camp fire at the tree line. It's believable because some of their clothes were found on the others and their bodies were found near the fire in any case.

[KFinn]

Most theories based on avalanche / snowslab / ice glide are suggesting that the event happened near the tent, and made the skiers flee to the treeline.
But what if something else made them flee the tent, and then some sort of snow glide or ice glide happened in the ravine, as the Rav4 were building a den?
I say this because of the injuries suffered by 3 of the Rav4 that could be explained by a large amount of snow hitting them. If those injuries were caused as they were still in the tent, I don't see how they could have managed to walk to the ravine.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. Could this ravine be abrupt enough, or deep enough to cause such an event?

I agree with everything you have said.

The avalanche did not happen at the tent in my opinion. It happened in the ravine. The huge amount of snow above the "den" area and over the bodies seems to indicate massive movement of snow -- enough to cause injury and death.

I would further speculate that Rustem Slobodin barely escaped this with a skull fracture and Igor Dyatlov and Zinaida Kolmogorova escaped relatively unscathed. I think the three of them made for the tent after the ravine avalanche as a last resort. This would explain why the group appeared to "split up" after the cedar tree... because in reality they didn't! They were all together until the ravine disaster and the three survivors then made for the tent.

In this scenario you describe, what happened to the two Yuris?  Would they already be dead by the time the avalanche happened in the ravine?

Yes, in my scenario they died at the camp fire at the tree line. It's believable because some of their clothes were found on the others and their bodies were found near the fire in any case.

I agree.  There does seem to be some evidence medically to suggest this.  Doroshenko's livor mortis was fixed on his back sides, which means that when his clothes were cut off and he was turned over onto his front, he had been deceased for, at minimum, 6 hours (livor mortis develops slightly more slowly in freezing temperatures so it could very well be more than 6 hours.)  In my opinion, whatever killed the ravine 4, since they were the group wearing articles of clothing belonging to to Doroshenko and Krivonischenko, would have had to occur quite some time after the Yuris passed.  With the extent of the injuries on those in the ravine and the depth of snow there, I'd say a slab avalanche is quite plausible.

[Squatch]

I agree.  There does seem to be some evidence medically to suggest this.  Doroshenko's livor mortis was fixed on his back sides, which means that when his clothes were cut off and he was turned over onto his front, he had been deceased for, at minimum, 6 hours (livor mortis develops slightly more slowly in freezing temperatures so it could very well be more than 6 hours.)  In my opinion, whatever killed the ravine 4, since they were the group wearing articles of clothing belonging to to Doroshenko and Krivonischenko, would have had to occur quite some time after the Yuris passed.  With the extent of the injuries on those in the ravine and the depth of snow there, I'd say a slab avalanche is quite plausible.

The picture of the "Den" is quite astonishing. There is an unbelievable amount of snow piled up on that thing. If an avalanche didn't cause all that snow to be above the Den then I don't know what would have put it all there.

In my home town, we have a measurement called a "Butt Ton". It means there is not just a ton of something there, there is a "Butt Ton". As in huge. A lot. Ginormous.

There is a Butt Ton of snow above that "Den". An avalanche kind of Butt Ton.

[Paf]

This is of course, if you believe that snow always falls and accumulates evenly and wind never creates things such as snow-drifts or snow-banks.  How do you know just how high/deep the west bank of the ravine was on Feb 2nd 1959?
 

Askinadzi and Suvorov on the slope of Otorten - photo archive Vladimir Askinadzi

Do we know where was this photo taken, facing which way, etc ? It doesn't seems to be on the same slop than the tent/den/cedar.


I don't really believe in avanlanche-sustained injuries. Fall of a big slab, maybe, but there was no such thing at the ravine (to many trees for the wind to built it up big enough for the injuries we're talking about).

[Manti]

As far as I know that photo was taken on Otorten, a different mountain peak that the Dyatlov group never reached.

[Игорь Б.]

Обрушение снега в ручье доказано радиограммой Ортюкова:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=64055
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=64227
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=64622

[Олег Таймень]

This is of course, if you believe that snow always falls and accumulates evenly and wind never creates things such as snow-drifts or snow-banks.  How do you know just how high/deep the west bank of the ravine was on Feb 2nd 1959?
 

Askinadzi and Suvorov on the slope of Otorten - photo archive Vladimir Askinadzi

Это не склон Отортена. Это третий правый приток Лозьвы, что берёт своё начало с северной части горы Халатчахль
Вот фотография Шуры Алексеенкова в августе 2022 года

Вот примерно с этого места я фотографирую в июле 2020 года ручей вверх по течению ( на дальнем плане вершина Холатчахль )

Вот фотографирую в другую сторону, вниз по ручью

Само место находится примерно в 3 километрах от перевала Дятлова. Вот место на карте:

Довольно жуткое место. Мы два раза там ночевали и оба раза наблюдали ночью слуховые галлюцинации в виде плача грудного ребёнка. Либо какой-то зверёк, либо птица, издаёт подобные ночные звуки. Что примечательно, подобных звуков мы не слышали никогда в других местах ночёвок.

[marieuk]

That does sound creepy

[Ziljoe]

This is one photo that looks fake to me. I can't say why. It looks like a photo shop. I would be interested in the documentation  of the photo. I reach out to the Russian community. I believe they would know better.

[Почемучка]

This is one photo that looks fake to me. I can't say why. It looks like a photo shop. I would be interested in the documentation  of the photo. I reach out to the Russian community. I believe they would know better.

Нет, это подлинник. Такие снежные карнизы там - постоянное явление. Это не совсем Отортен, это по пути к нему со склона Холат-Чахля. Там такие отроги - что позволяют с одной горки - фотографировать другой отрог. Человечки - это Аскинадзи и еще кто-то из его смены.
No, this is the original. Such snow cornices there are a constant phenomenon. This is not quite Otorten, it is on the way to it from the slope of Kholat-Chakhlya. There are such spurs - which allow you to photograph another spur from one hill. The little people are Askinaji and someone else from his shift.