December 15, 2019, 05:59:58 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Bombs spiked with Sr-90  (Read 786 times)

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March 02, 2019, 11:01:49 PM
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Ryan


I'm suggesting this with little evidence supporting it, but by process of elimination, I don't think much else is left.

The radiation report needs an explanation. I have good reason to believe it could not have been caused by a small tactical nuke, which I'll post about later. Contamination from work or school wouldn't affect all four hikers in the ravine. And the investigative team knew to check for radiation in the first place, which seems extremely odd that they'd find it.

So....

Let's assume the military was conducting a test of some type of bomb spiked with Sr-90. I could easily see this being a thermobaric bomb, and the purpose of the Sr-90 is to act as a tracer. Then, the military can come in after the fact with beta sensitive Geiger counters and chart where the shock wave hit by the presence of the radiation. (This isn't a terribly environmentally friendly thing to do, but it's also in the middle of nowhere.) Alternately, the military could have been experimenting with "dirty bombs" with the express purpose of delivering radioactive contamination.

Sr-90 would be a good candidate for a tracer. It is produced in abundance in nuclear reactors, so it should be easily obtainable in quantity for the military. As a beta emitter, it isn't going to give any staff sent in to monitor it a gamma dose, which would be far more serious. Sr-90 has historically been considered an excellent candidate for a dirty bomb. There have been reports from WWII that Oppenheimer discussed poisoning Japan with it

The military has no idea the hikers are present. The noise of aircraft and/or bombs detonating roused some people from the tent. Then they realize they are very exposed in their current position when something detonating nearby indicates they need to evacuate immediately. Hence cutting out of the tent and evacuating in various states of undress. Evacuating down slope is natural, and the trees and/or ravine may have offered what seemed like more cover.

These activities are responsible for the UFO sightings. It's possible Krivonishchenko's frame 34 could have been of an aerial detonation. Military tests may have repeated on several nights in different areas, again explaining the UFO reports.

A thermobaric bomb may have caused the treetop scorching. It is also possible that a shock wave from one caused the internal injuries to the hikers found in the ravine while not producing comparable external injuries. The Sr-90 in the bomb caused the contamination on their clothes. If something detonated in the vicinity of the tent, it's possible the tent could set off Geiger counters, too.

After the military testing was over, the four hikers in the ravine were dead or close to it. The other five may have survived and either tried to keep warm with a fire near the cedar or attempted to make their way back to the tent. All of them eventually succumbed to hypothermia.

Meanwhile, the military remained oblivious to the fate of the hikers. I chalk this up to a big bureaucracy where the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. A screw-up of this proportion, e.g. accidentally killing 9 college students in a secret weapons test, would be beyond awful. If the military had any idea what had happened at this point, the 9 bodies and the tent would have conveniently "disappeared." I think there is no way the military would have allowed the bodies to be found if they had any say in this matter, with that much potential for forensic evidence giving something away. Likewise, I can't see the military letting the hikers be found with cameras and undeveloped film. If the hikers and the tent simply disappeared, would this forum exist and would we be talking about them today? Probably not.

I think, at a minimum, the search and rescue team was underway and close to the hikers before the military made the connection between them going missing and the bomb tests. In that case, the military couldn't slip in to "disappear" the bodies without making their presence obvious.

Once the military realized what had happened, and that it was too late to make the bodies disappear, they arranged to have Ivanov installed to lead the public investigation, presumably because they knew that for some reason they could either manipulate him or that he would be sympathetic to their cause.

At some point, the military also realized that contamination was likely and they let Ivanov know about this via some kind of back channel. They may not have wanted Ivanov's team getting contaminated or otherwise endangering themselves. So a little "*hint hint*... You might want to take a Geiger counter to work and test stuff" may have happened.

This explains one of the biggest mysteries in my mind. It seems surreal that someone would both possess a Geiger counter and randomly decide to check the hikers for radiation, after which it turns out they were contaminated with a weird beta emitter?

I think it may be possible that the tip to Ivanov to test with Geiger counters may have been a later development. We only have a radiation report for the four in the ravine, which leads me to wonder whether the first five were buried before the "tip" arrived. I also recognize that the timing of this is uncertain.

The radiological report on the four hikers in the ravine raised more questions than answers. But, acting on pressure from the military, Ivanov did not have further tests conducted, and instead closed the case. Also, access to the area was supposedly closed for three years. While Sr-90 has a 29 year half life, over time it may migrate out of the environment. So limiting access to the area for a few years while things cool down made sense.

March 03, 2019, 08:41:51 AM
Reply #1
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Puchiko


I am leaning towards some sort of "casualty of military test" theory myself and I find this version particularly convincing, as it explains the leaving of the tent, the significant internal injuries and radioactivity at the same time.

Still, I do feel there's some aspects it can't explain - you would think that they would never be allowed in a secret military testing area (you couldn't move freely within the Soviet Union, the group had received express permission for the expedition and such permission would have been easy to decline, as actually happened to a group that wanted to head into the same area shortly after the Dyatlov group https://dyatlovpass.com/vsevolozhskaya?rbid=18461 , the area was then closed to the public for several years). It also seems to me like the area wasn't as remote as would be warranted for a military test - Mansi were in the area permanently and tourists were not uncommon (a different hiking group was about 50 km away). However, though gross incompetence by the authorities is strange, it's more plausible than aliens.

March 04, 2019, 06:32:22 AM
Reply #2
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Ryan


Thanks!

The level of secrecy one needs for a military test depends a lot on what is being tested, but it isn't necessarily all that extreme. Everyone knows militaries build bombs and conduct live fire tests. It's critical that civilians aren't close enough to be injured. And it's also critical that they are kept at enough distance that they can't learn any useful intelligence. But if all they see are glowing orbs in the sky, that's probably perfectly fine.

Even the US Trinity test was observed from a distance by civilians. The military released a cover story that an ammunition dump blew up.

Now if Khrushchev was about to cheat on a nuclear testing moratorium, I think a lot more secrecy would be needed than could be obtained in that region, at least without enough military presence to make what was happening obvious.

As to why hikers were granted permission, militaries and governments are huge bureaucracies, and the left hand frequently doesn't know what the right hand is doing. In 1987, someone illegally flew a Cessna from Helsinki to Moscow and landed near Red Square. A comedy of errors allowed this to happen, as the plane was frequently presumed friendly by the supposedly impenetrable Soviet air defense system. In 1995, Russia was given formal notice of a Norwegian scientific rocket flight. This notice didn't get passed down to the people running the early warning radars, and it was interpreted as a possible Trident missile launch. They brought the nuclear briefcase to Yeltsin; WWIII could easily have resulted.

This theory still does have some holes.

While glowing orbs were seen, I don't think anyone heard explosions.

Also, the point of spiking a bomb with Sr-90 would be to allow for ground based surveys with Geiger counters. If the military did go through the area later, I'd think they would have encountered the remains of the Dyatlov expedition. It seems likely to me that they would have made all the bodies and the tent disappear, and not leave them and their cameras for a search party to discover.

March 04, 2019, 08:50:28 AM
Reply #3
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
From what I have read it looks more and more likely that it was military and that there was some nuclear involvement.

Spiked device
Dirty device
Low yield device

Without going there and taking the necessary samples to analyse using modern techniques what can be concluded?

Regards
Star man

March 04, 2019, 12:55:10 PM
Reply #4
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I'm suggesting this with little evidence supporting it, but by process of elimination, I don't think much else is left.

The radiation report needs an explanation. I have good reason to believe it could not have been caused by a small tactical nuke, which I'll post about later. Contamination from work or school wouldn't affect all four hikers in the ravine. And the investigative team knew to check for radiation in the first place, which seems extremely odd that they'd find it.

So....

Let's assume the military was conducting a test of some type of bomb spiked with Sr-90. I could easily see this being a thermobaric bomb, and the purpose of the Sr-90 is to act as a tracer. Then, the military can come in after the fact with beta sensitive Geiger counters and chart where the shock wave hit by the presence of the radiation. (This isn't a terribly environmentally friendly thing to do, but it's also in the middle of nowhere.) Alternately, the military could have been experimenting with "dirty bombs" with the express purpose of delivering radioactive contamination.

Sr-90 would be a good candidate for a tracer. It is produced in abundance in nuclear reactors, so it should be easily obtainable in quantity for the military. As a beta emitter, it isn't going to give any staff sent in to monitor it a gamma dose, which would be far more serious. Sr-90 has historically been considered an excellent candidate for a dirty bomb. There have been reports from WWII that Oppenheimer discussed poisoning Japan with it

The military has no idea the hikers are present. The noise of aircraft and/or bombs detonating roused some people from the tent. Then they realize they are very exposed in their current position when something detonating nearby indicates they need to evacuate immediately. Hence cutting out of the tent and evacuating in various states of undress. Evacuating down slope is natural, and the trees and/or ravine may have offered what seemed like more cover.

These activities are responsible for the UFO sightings. It's possible Krivonishchenko's frame 34 could have been of an aerial detonation. Military tests may have repeated on several nights in different areas, again explaining the UFO reports.

A thermobaric bomb may have caused the treetop scorching. It is also possible that a shock wave from one caused the internal injuries to the hikers found in the ravine while not producing comparable external injuries. The Sr-90 in the bomb caused the contamination on their clothes. If something detonated in the vicinity of the tent, it's possible the tent could set off Geiger counters, too.

After the military testing was over, the four hikers in the ravine were dead or close to it. The other five may have survived and either tried to keep warm with a fire near the cedar or attempted to make their way back to the tent. All of them eventually succumbed to hypothermia.

Meanwhile, the military remained oblivious to the fate of the hikers. I chalk this up to a big bureaucracy where the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. A screw-up of this proportion, e.g. accidentally killing 9 college students in a secret weapons test, would be beyond awful. If the military had any idea what had happened at this point, the 9 bodies and the tent would have conveniently "disappeared." I think there is no way the military would have allowed the bodies to be found if they had any say in this matter, with that much potential for forensic evidence giving something away. Likewise, I can't see the military letting the hikers be found with cameras and undeveloped film. If the hikers and the tent simply disappeared, would this forum exist and would we be talking about them today? Probably not.

I think, at a minimum, the search and rescue team was underway and close to the hikers before the military made the connection between them going missing and the bomb tests. In that case, the military couldn't slip in to "disappear" the bodies without making their presence obvious.

Once the military realized what had happened, and that it was too late to make the bodies disappear, they arranged to have Ivanov installed to lead the public investigation, presumably because they knew that for some reason they could either manipulate him or that he would be sympathetic to their cause.

At some point, the military also realized that contamination was likely and they let Ivanov know about this via some kind of back channel. They may not have wanted Ivanov's team getting contaminated or otherwise endangering themselves. So a little "*hint hint*... You might want to take a Geiger counter to work and test stuff" may have happened.

This explains one of the biggest mysteries in my mind. It seems surreal that someone would both possess a Geiger counter and randomly decide to check the hikers for radiation, after which it turns out they were contaminated with a weird beta emitter?

I think it may be possible that the tip to Ivanov to test with Geiger counters may have been a later development. We only have a radiation report for the four in the ravine, which leads me to wonder whether the first five were buried before the "tip" arrived. I also recognize that the timing of this is uncertain.

The radiological report on the four hikers in the ravine raised more questions than answers. But, acting on pressure from the military, Ivanov did not have further tests conducted, and instead closed the case. Also, access to the area was supposedly closed for three years. While Sr-90 has a 29 year half life, over time it may migrate out of the environment. So limiting access to the area for a few years while things cool down made sense.


Its true that mistakes occurred in the USSR involving weapons testing. But certain areas were well marked for Military Testing of Nuclear Weapons. And the area where the Dyatlov Group went was not one of those areas. THERMOBARIC WEAPONS are very powerful and LOUD given their size. Reports of small THERMOBARIC explosions being heard over 100 Kilometres away. The effects on humans are particularly devastating. And external and internal injuries would be extensive and show many SIGNS during any Autopsy. No such BANGS were heard and Autopsies did not reveal any such SIGNS.
DB

March 05, 2019, 06:57:09 AM
Reply #5
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gypsy


From what I have read it looks more and more likely that it was military and that there was some nuclear involvement.

Spiked device
Dirty device
Low yield device

Without going there and taking the necessary samples to analyse using modern techniques what can be concluded?

Regards
Star man

Could have been anything banned by international treaties, including chemical, biological weapons or what was already mentioned above. Chemical or biological weapons don't necessarily require a a strong explosion, the desired effect is not to destroy infrastructure or buildings, enemy weapons etc. All of that was possible to rule in or out by chemical analyses if they were conducted at proper time.No sure what traces would have remained after 60 years.

Without taking actual samples, it would be interesting to know who exactly was in charge of the confiscation of evidence, imposing the no-go zone in the area, what inventory is missing from the scene, who Ivanov spoke to in Moscow etc. It could tell us what departments or personnel was interested in case and why.

March 05, 2019, 08:36:36 AM
Reply #6
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
From what I have read it looks more and more likely that it was military and that there was some nuclear involvement.

Spiked device
Dirty device
Low yield device

Without going there and taking the necessary samples to analyse using modern techniques what can be concluded?

Regards
Star man

Could have been anything banned by international treaties, including chemical, biological weapons or what was already mentioned above. Chemical or biological weapons don't necessarily require a a strong explosion, the desired effect is not to destroy infrastructure or buildings, enemy weapons etc. All of that was possible to rule in or out by chemical analyses if they were conducted at proper time.No sure what traces would have remained after 60 years.

Without taking actual samples, it would be interesting to know who exactly was in charge of the confiscation of evidence, imposing the no-go zone in the area, what inventory is missing from the scene, who Ivanov spoke to in Moscow etc. It could tell us what departments or personnel was interested in case and why.

Sounds like you are thinking along the same lines as myself. I agree.  There may be some further digging to do into where the key decisions were made.

March 06, 2019, 01:38:04 PM
Reply #7
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
It seems that more than one Thermobaric Bomb would have been needed to cause the events at the Site or Sites of the Dyatlov Groups demise. And such weapons cause catastrophic injuries to humans, although its possible that humans on the fringe of a blast could suffer internal injuries without showing external signs. But there are other factors at play and we would expect to see much damage to the Tent and Clothing and Trees, etc. And the USSR didnt start developing such Weapons until the 1960's.
DB

March 07, 2019, 09:24:01 PM
Reply #8
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Ryan


Could have been anything banned by international treaties, including chemical, biological weapons or what was already mentioned above. Chemical or biological weapons don't necessarily require a a strong explosion, the desired effect is not to destroy infrastructure or buildings, enemy weapons etc. All of that was possible to rule in or out by chemical analyses if they were conducted at proper time.No sure what traces would have remained after 60 years.

Without taking actual samples, it would be interesting to know who exactly was in charge of the confiscation of evidence, imposing the no-go zone in the area, what inventory is missing from the scene, who Ivanov spoke to in Moscow etc. It could tell us what departments or personnel was interested in case and why.

If one is testing a chemical or biological dispersal weapon, it would be reasonable to spike it with Sr-90 and detonate it in an uninhabited area as a way to quantify the dispersal pattern. This could be done with either inert simulants or with the actual chemical or biological agent.

Hearing an airplane or an incoming missile or shell could easily draw some of the hikers from their tent, get people to grab their cameras, start putting on a boot, etc. An actual device detonating nearby could then induce panic such that they cut their way out and leave the area, looking for shelter.

I'm not terribly attached to the idea that it has to be a thermobaric bomb. My thoughts in that direction were that the four hikers in the ravine had various internal injuries without external damage, so I was wondering if a thermobaric bomb could produce overpressure that could do it. Are there other plausible explanations for these injuries? I thought there was reason to think they couldn't be caused post-mortem, say, by being crushed by the weight of snow in the ravine.

Still, the thing I don't like about this is that Sr-90 implies the military is going to come back and survey. If they did, and found the hikers' bodies, I think it likely that they'd make the bodies and the tent disappear.

March 07, 2019, 11:44:52 PM
Reply #9
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Could have been anything banned by international treaties, including chemical, biological weapons or what was already mentioned above. Chemical or biological weapons don't necessarily require a a strong explosion, the desired effect is not to destroy infrastructure or buildings, enemy weapons etc. All of that was possible to rule in or out by chemical analyses if they were conducted at proper time.No sure what traces would have remained after 60 years.

Without taking actual samples, it would be interesting to know who exactly was in charge of the confiscation of evidence, imposing the no-go zone in the area, what inventory is missing from the scene, who Ivanov spoke to in Moscow etc. It could tell us what departments or personnel was interested in case and why.

If one is testing a chemical or biological dispersal weapon, it would be reasonable to spike it with Sr-90 and detonate it in an uninhabited area as a way to quantify the dispersal pattern. This could be done with either inert simulants or with the actual chemical or biological agent.

Hearing an airplane or an incoming missile or shell could easily draw some of the hikers from their tent, get people to grab their cameras, start putting on a boot, etc. An actual device detonating nearby could then induce panic such that they cut their way out and leave the area, looking for shelter.

I'm not terribly attached to the idea that it has to be a thermobaric bomb. My thoughts in that direction were that the four hikers in the ravine had various internal injuries without external damage, so I was wondering if a thermobaric bomb could produce overpressure that could do it. Are there other plausible explanations for these injuries? I thought there was reason to think they couldn't be caused post-mortem, say, by being crushed by the weight of snow in the ravine.

Still, the thing I don't like about this is that Sr-90 implies the military is going to come back and survey. If they did, and found the hikers' bodies, I think it likely that they'd make the bodies and the tent disappear.

There are other more fitting reasons that cause the injuries.  They are more consistent with a fall than anything else. I did a detailed bio mechanical analysis in the low yield nuke thread.  This fits other people’s conclusions.

A thermobaric device is likely to have resulted in more devastating injuries as well as obvious damage to the surroundings.

March 08, 2019, 12:33:43 PM
Reply #10
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Could have been anything banned by international treaties, including chemical, biological weapons or what was already mentioned above. Chemical or biological weapons don't necessarily require a a strong explosion, the desired effect is not to destroy infrastructure or buildings, enemy weapons etc. All of that was possible to rule in or out by chemical analyses if they were conducted at proper time.No sure what traces would have remained after 60 years.

Without taking actual samples, it would be interesting to know who exactly was in charge of the confiscation of evidence, imposing the no-go zone in the area, what inventory is missing from the scene, who Ivanov spoke to in Moscow etc. It could tell us what departments or personnel was interested in case and why.

If one is testing a chemical or biological dispersal weapon, it would be reasonable to spike it with Sr-90 and detonate it in an uninhabited area as a way to quantify the dispersal pattern. This could be done with either inert simulants or with the actual chemical or biological agent.

Hearing an airplane or an incoming missile or shell could easily draw some of the hikers from their tent, get people to grab their cameras, start putting on a boot, etc. An actual device detonating nearby could then induce panic such that they cut their way out and leave the area, looking for shelter.

I'm not terribly attached to the idea that it has to be a thermobaric bomb. My thoughts in that direction were that the four hikers in the ravine had various internal injuries without external damage, so I was wondering if a thermobaric bomb could produce overpressure that could do it. Are there other plausible explanations for these injuries? I thought there was reason to think they couldn't be caused post-mortem, say, by being crushed by the weight of snow in the ravine.

Still, the thing I don't like about this is that Sr-90 implies the military is going to come back and survey. If they did, and found the hikers' bodies, I think it likely that they'd make the bodies and the tent disappear.


Uninhabited area  !  ?  The USSR Military just didnt pick any old uninhabited area in which to unleash NUCLEAR WEAPONS. And they would have made certain that no expeditions were in that particular area.
DB