air/space craft accident leading to military attack

[wizzy]

Hello everyone, I'm new to the forum :)

I have a theory that may explain the presence of military in the area, even if there were no restrictions or weapon tests.
I don't know if this has already been presented in the forum, in that case i didn't notice it and apologize.
btw bear with me:

we know several pieces of debris have been found in the recent years in the area.
I am not an engineer but these "grid stiffened panels" seem to be commonly used in aircrafts, or generally in stuff that has to be light, and resistant to pressures/solicitation.
I have found evidence of at least 3 of these debris recovered in the area of the dyatlov incident:






I also found years ago a picture on panoramio of another piece, similar in size to the first, but I have lost the pic and can't seem to be able to recover it online anywhere... according to the geolocalization of the picture, it was found a couple miles SW of the tent location, on the other side of the cliff.

My theory is, bear with me, that an accident happened to some kind of (possibly top secret) aircraft high in the air, maybe even a reentry capsule from a space test, and the
debris fell all over the area.
a team of military were sent to recover the debris and to cleanup the evidence, and to their surprise spotted the tent of the Dyatlov expedition, being them possible witnesses of the accident, the decision was made to silence them by staging their death.

A team of military approached the tent and at gunpoint forced the hikers to leave the tent, and walk away in the night hoping for the cold to do the job.
maybe they were restrained, and questioned first, explaining the abrasions on Dyatlov's ankles, maybe some of them tried to react, and were beaten up causing the lesser injuries found on them, compatible with a fight, but they were ultimately overpowered and forced to venture in the night.

all the cameras were left in the tent, but maybe Zolotoryov managed to sneak one, hiding it under his clothes, same for one of the knives, keep in mind the harsh conditions
were no walk in the park even for the military, and in the darkness they didn't notice.

maybe the military, just to be sure, forced the hikers to abandon even more clothes on their way down to the slope ( some clothes were found scattered on the trail to the
cedar, relatively close to the tent).
While the military were "cleaning up" some of them noticed a fire under the cedar, sign that some of the hikers had somehow survived, and hunted them down causing the more severe injuries.
maybe stepping on their chests, beating them with blunt objects, or pushing their own weight on the side of the head with a knee, or pushing them in the ravine, in order to make this ordeal appear as an accident ( or maybe the ravine fall was an actual accident).

why no military tracks?
maybe they were using snowshoes, that distribute more evenly the weight and leave less permanent compression tracks in the snow.

why the radioactivity on some specific clothes?
maybe someone in the group recovered a pice of debris, hence not all the clothes were radioactive, but only those who entered into contact with the debris. or maybe as someone else pointed out, the melting snow accumulated it onto some of the corpses clothes found in the ravine after collecting it from the area.
I have no idea if that kind of radioactivity is compatible with a vehicle reentrying from orbit or if it requires some specific isotopes, but maybe the craft had a nuclear battery in it akin to some space probes.

I know this explanation does not answer to ALL the questions, but at least it could be a plausible reason ( i think) to have hostile military forces in the area. despite it not being a restricted weapon testing area.
And yes i know the debris could be a recent thing, happened decades after the dyatlov accident, but 2 unusual fenomenons in the same place may well not be a coincidence.

on an unrelated note, a few years ago, some strange thing was found ( possibly fallen from the sky) in russia, albeit very far from the Dyatlov incident region, that has a section
closely resempling the grid pattern on the dyatlov debris:
https://www.livescience.com/19239-ufo-fragment-siberia-forest.html

I know it's just speculations, but could this be a plausible explanation to have a human cause to the group leaving the tent?
what do you guys think about it? 

[Star man]

Hello everyone, I'm new to the forum :)

I have a theory that may explain the presence of military in the area, even if there were no restrictions or weapon tests.
I don't know if this has already been presented in the forum, in that case i didn't notice it and apologize.
btw bear with me:

we know several pieces of debris have been found in the recent years in the area.
I am not an engineer but these "grid stiffened panels" seem to be commonly used in aircrafts, or generally in stuff that has to be light, and resistant to pressures/solicitation.
I have found evidence of at least 3 of these debris recovered in the area of the dyatlov incident:






I also found years ago a picture on panoramio of another piece, similar in size to the first, but I have lost the pic and can't seem to be able to recover it online anywhere... according to the geolocalization of the picture, it was found a couple miles SW of the tent location, on the other side of the cliff.

My theory is, bear with me, that an accident happened to some kind of (possibly top secret) aircraft high in the air, maybe even a reentry capsule from a space test, and the
debris fell all over the area.
a team of military were sent to recover the debris and to cleanup the evidence, and to their surprise spotted the tent of the Dyatlov expedition, being them possible witnesses of the accident, the decision was made to silence them by staging their death.

A team of military approached the tent and at gunpoint forced the hikers to leave the tent, and walk away in the night hoping for the cold to do the job.
maybe they were restrained, and questioned first, explaining the abrasions on Dyatlov's ankles, maybe some of them tried to react, and were beaten up causing the lesser injuries found on them, compatible with a fight, but they were ultimately overpowered and forced to venture in the night.

all the cameras were left in the tent, but maybe Zolotoryov managed to sneak one, hiding it under his clothes, same for one of the knives, keep in mind the harsh conditions
were no walk in the park even for the military, and in the darkness they didn't notice.

maybe the military, just to be sure, forced the hikers to abandon even more clothes on their way down to the slope ( some clothes were found scattered on the trail to the
cedar, relatively close to the tent).
While the military were "cleaning up" some of them noticed a fire under the cedar, sign that some of the hikers had somehow survived, and hunted them down causing the more severe injuries.
maybe stepping on their chests, beating them with blunt objects, or pushing their own weight on the side of the head with a knee, or pushing them in the ravine, in order to make this ordeal appear as an accident ( or maybe the ravine fall was an actual accident).

why no military tracks?
maybe they were using snowshoes, that distribute more evenly the weight and leave less permanent compression tracks in the snow.

why the radioactivity on some specific clothes?
maybe someone in the group recovered a pice of debris, hence not all the clothes were radioactive, but only those who entered into contact with the debris. or maybe as someone else pointed out, the melting snow accumulated it onto some of the corpses clothes found in the ravine after collecting it from the area.
I have no idea if that kind of radioactivity is compatible with a vehicle reentrying from orbit or if it requires some specific isotopes, but maybe the craft had a nuclear battery in it akin to some space probes.

I know this explanation does not answer to ALL the questions, but at least it could be a plausible reason ( i think) to have hostile military forces in the area. despite it not being a restricted weapon testing area.
And yes i know the debris could be a recent thing, happened decades after the dyatlov accident, but 2 unusual fenomenons in the same place may well not be a coincidence.

on an unrelated note, a few years ago, some strange thing was found ( possibly fallen from the sky) in russia, albeit very far from the Dyatlov incident region, that has a section
closely resempling the grid pattern on the dyatlov debris:
https://www.livescience.com/19239-ufo-fragment-siberia-forest.html

I know it's just speculations, but could this be a plausible explanation to have a human cause to the group leaving the tent?
what do you guys think about it? 

In terms of a military accident and some kind of secret aircraft crash which in turn caused panic and the hikers then fled.  I suppose it’s as credible as many of the other theories IMO. 

The radiation is difficult to explain via this route but a failed space launch with a sr 90 battery might explain it.

Regards
Star man

[wizzy]

I don't think they fled in panic, why would they panic for an air accident?
they would probably be surprised, and concerned for the occupants of the vehicle, but it would not be a a danger for them in itself.
I think they left the tent at gunpoint, against their will.

[Star man]

I don't think they fled in panic, why would they panic for an air accident?
they would probably be surprised, and concerned for the occupants of the vehicle, but it would not be a a danger for them in itself.
I think they left the tent at gunpoint, against their will.

I see. It’s the murder theory but with a motive.

Regards
Star man

[WAB]

Hello everyone, I'm new to the forum :)

I have a theory that may explain the presence of military in the area, even if there were no restrictions or weapon tests.
I don't know if this has already been presented in the forum, in that case i didn't notice it and apologize.
btw bear with me:

Dear Wizzy !
As the beginner on it the form and this theme we ask usual and standard questions when find not clear information for itself and try connect it with theme of incident of Dyatlov group. It is normal course of reception and the information analysis. The most important thing correctly and unbiassedly understand that about what to you speak and object. I will try explain your questions from the point of view of the expert in this rocket and aviation technics.

we know several pieces of debris have been found in the recent years in the area.
I am not an engineer but these "grid stiffened panels" seem to be commonly used in aircrafts, or generally in stuff that has to be light, and resistant to pressures/solicitation.
I have found evidence of at least 3 of these debris recovered in the area of the dyatlov incident:






I also found years ago a picture on panoramio of another piece, similar in size to the first, but I have lost the pic and can't seem to be able to recover it online anywhere... according to the geolocalization of the picture, it was found a couple miles SW of the tent location, on the other side of the cliff.

I observe moving of these fragments since 2008. At first them has found and the group of Chelyabinsk city in 2008 has transferred to other place. About it has been written in Russian forums and co-ordinates have been given. Then some times about them wrote some groups of travellers which there passed in the summer. In 2015 my friend specially descended for 20 km on the West from top of mountain and there the local resident has shown it the same fragments.
In 2008 and was 2009 their discussion in Russian forums, when all who has enough knowledge on rockets. We have unequivocally come to a conclusion that it is fragments of the rocket of type UR-100 which have started to develop only in 1963. Therefore in 1959 it was not even on drawings.
Therefore, “if not apply time machine”  , this in any way cannot be suspected rockets of the reason of a case of Dyatlov group.
Our substantiations are reduced to that key element of an identification of this rocket is the technology multispindle millings (internal cover as "wafer"). It have started to apply in the USSR only in 1965 on Hrunichev firm which did pre-production models of these rockets.
About these parts of rockets speak much or people which do not understand rockets or journalists who gain money for "yellow press".
I estimated this concrete detail (which bear on a picture printed above) during conference in February 2019.
Here a photo of this research:




It was indoors “Fund memory of Dyatlov group”. I did gaugings for exact definition of updating rocket.
Therefore anything especial in these fragments of rockets is not present. They of later time also do not concern case with Dyatlov group.

My theory is, bear with me, that an accident happened to some kind of (possibly top secret) aircraft high in the air, maybe even a reentry capsule from a space test, and the
debris fell all over the area.
a team of military were sent to recover the debris and to cleanup the evidence, and to their surprise spotted the tent of the Dyatlov expedition, being them possible witnesses of the accident, the decision was made to silence them by staging their death.

A team of military approached the tent and at gunpoint forced the hikers to leave the tent, and walk away in the night hoping for the cold to do the job.
maybe they were restrained, and questioned first, explaining the abrasions on Dyatlov's ankles, maybe some of them tried to react, and were beaten up causing the lesser injuries found on them, compatible with a fight, but they were ultimately overpowered and forced to venture in the night.

all the cameras were left in the tent, but maybe Zolotoryov managed to sneak one, hiding it under his clothes, same for one of the knives, keep in mind the harsh conditions
were no walk in the park even for the military, and in the darkness they didn't notice.

maybe the military, just to be sure, forced the hikers to abandon even more clothes on their way down to the slope ( some clothes were found scattered on the trail to the
cedar, relatively close to the tent).
While the military were "cleaning up" some of them noticed a fire under the cedar, sign that some of the hikers had somehow survived, and hunted them down causing the more severe injuries.
maybe stepping on their chests, beating them with blunt objects, or pushing their own weight on the side of the head with a knee, or pushing them in the ravine, in order to make this ordeal appear as an accident ( or maybe the ravine fall was an actual accident).

why no military tracks?
maybe they were using snowshoes, that distribute more evenly the weight and leave less permanent compression tracks in the snow.

why the radioactivity on some specific clothes?
maybe someone in the group recovered a pice of debris, hence not all the clothes were radioactive, but only those who entered into contact with the debris. or maybe as someone else pointed out, the melting snow accumulated it onto some of the corpses clothes found in the ravine after collecting it from the area.
I have no idea if that kind of radioactivity is compatible with a vehicle reentrying from orbit or if it requires some specific isotopes, but maybe the craft had a nuclear battery in it akin to some space probes.

Radiation which have found out too does not concern rockets. There there are no radioactive elements, short of nuclear warhead of military rockets. But if it has blown up, there would not be not only Dyatlov group, and the mountain too. And radiation levels would be even now in hundreds and thousand times above a natural background. That radiation which have found out on clothes exceeded level of a background of the earth only in 3 or 4 times. It is not enough. In cities there are dot places where this level in 100 times above norm because there is materials which contain the natural raised radio-activity. For example, it is some grades of granite.

I know this explanation does not answer to ALL the questions, but at least it could be a plausible reason ( i think) to have hostile military forces in the area. despite it not being a restricted weapon testing area.
And yes i know the debris could be a recent thing, happened decades after the dyatlov accident, but 2 unusual fenomenons in the same place may well not be a coincidence.

Anywhere in the world do not test the weapon and any other military products in deaf place. What to conduct tests lot of equipment, people and good infrastructure would be necessary. Means it is necessary have nearby settlement or city, and as roads and the electric power. Therefore always all tests spend on special ranges. They are built by many years and constantly improve. Near to pass anything such is not present and never was. Therefore the theme of tests here has arisen is artificial.

on an unrelated note, a few years ago, some strange thing was found ( possibly fallen from the sky) in russia, albeit very far from the Dyatlov incident region, that has a section
closely resempling the grid pattern on the dyatlov debris:
https://www.livescience.com/19239-ufo-fragment-siberia-forest.html

It too is quite explainable. It is ground part of the second step from the rocket type RS-28 "Sarmat" (or SS-19, on NATO "Satan-2" classification). Probably it was a falling place when spent either test or educational starts 90 or 2000th years. A bottom "wafer", as well as at UR-100 has the same structure of type. This typical application of combination “durability – weight” which is used in the rocket technics

I know it's just speculations, but could this be a plausible explanation to have a human cause to the group leaving the tent?
what do you guys think about it? 

Any rocket does not concern case with Dyatlov group because in 1959 there were no rockets which could reach there from places where they have been really located. Flight distances at that time was small - no more than 1200 km. To consider that the rocket have specially brought and have started what kill Dyatlov group people with whom is useless discuss this case can only. As well as many other cases which have a simple explanation in the form of the natural reason.

[wizzy]

thank you for your answer, very informative!   

so that kind of panel was used in the UR-100 and the UR-100 it had not yet been developed at the time of the dyatlov incident.
could be a predecessor that used a similar kind of panel, re-used later in the UR-100?
it does not involve a specific leap of tecnology, it's just a geometric feature of a panel that makes it more stiff, maybe it could already be in use for some years before the '60s, it worked well, so the design was later adopted for the UR-100 and possibly several other aircrafts.
or specifically the wafer grid stiffening tecnology was totally new, and not invented until the '60 for the UR-100?
I am absolutely a newbie about aircraft engineering, so I'm sorry if my questions are dumb.

also in 1961 yuri gagarin completed the first succesful orbit of earth, is it not possible that only 2 years before, some test (maybe just of the vectors) were made with unsuccesful unmanned prototypes, and that some of them fell back off course "in the middle of nowhere"?
if it worked in 1961 it is likely there were preliminary tests a couple of years before, and if some test went not well, maybe the secret had to be kept a secret.
even of not, 1200 km is quite a lot, I'd expect there to be some military bases in a 1200 km radius around the area.

It is true that for a military team to reach the location in a short amount of time ( less than a day or the hikers would have probably noted explosions in the sky in their diaries the day before) a base and all the infrastructures would have to be relatively near.
do we know the distance of the closest military base that could hypotetically send a retrieve team in the area?

I admit the teory of the rocket/airplane accident as a motive may not be exceptionally strong ( still stronger than others) but I am still convinced that human intervention is the most plausible reason for the group to leave the tent, even if the debries is totally unrelated to the whole accident, and fell on the area decades later.

[WAB]

thank you for your answer, very informative!   

so that kind of panel was used in the UR-100 and the UR-100 it had not yet been developed at the time of the dyatlov incident.
could be a predecessor that used a similar kind of panel, re-used later in the UR-100?

No. The intelligence of mankind develops gradually and now it is difficult present that many obvious technical decisions very long and difficultly took root into the industry.
Before rockets did as planes: power skeleton and filling cover. It smaller weight return (means a parity “durability – weight”), but more resource (time when working loadings are possible). The rocket flies all some 10s minutes (usually from 20 to 30) and after that it is not so necessary completely. The plane should fly for years and have the big reliability. In it basic difference in designing of rockets and planes. 1958 … 1963 is the period when purely rocket technologies in designing and manufacturing of cases rockets accustomed and took root. Before it in industry used old (as plane) technologies only.

it does not involve a specific leap of tecnology, it's just a geometric feature of a panel that makes it more stiff, maybe it could already be in use for some years before the '60s, it worked well, so the design was later adopted for the UR-100 and possibly several other aircrafts.

We speak about rockets. Therefore it is necessary consider that I have just told in the previous paragraph.
It was necessary for possibility of reception such elements covers much multispindle milling machine tools which practically were not used before. Therefore it was necessary to develop and make them in the necessary quantity. It means new races in machine-tool construction. It turns out that one industry demands from another new development. And on it time, means and intellectual energy is necessary. Therefore it very quickly and in advance cannot anything develop.

or specifically the wafer grid stiffening tecnology was totally new, and not invented until the '60 for the UR-100?

I speak about it also. It has been applied then because there was transition from plane to rocket technology in rocket production. Before practically there were no big rockets and there was no technology on which them could make.

I am absolutely a newbie about aircraft engineering, so I'm sorry if my questions are dumb.

You are absolutely right that ask such questions. It will allow understand competently and in detail that occurred. Some people instead start think out a fantasy, therefore quickly get confused in the general course of events.

also in 1961 yuri gagarin completed the first succesful orbit of earth, is it not possible that only 2 years before, some test (maybe just of the vectors) were made with unsuccesful unmanned prototypes, and that some of them fell back off course "in the middle of nowhere"?
if it worked in 1961 it is likely there were preliminary tests a couple of years before, and if some test went not well, maybe the secret had to be kept a secret.

If to consider real history of outer space exploration in 50 and 60th years it is necessary notice that for 5 years in the history of mankind there were many events which was not and will not be already further for such small period. 1957 - there were first rockets which were capable to put into orbit the companion. 1961 - it is year when the person has departed for the first time to space. In this time it was necessary to solve many different problems: from equipment existence in space (the big cold and the big overheat for short time period) to full complex of life-support of the person in space and possibility of the guaranteed returning to the earth. It is very much great volume of work. I am, just, the expert in these problems. There was big intensity in working out and tests of space systems, therefore make that that was faster simply impossible. It was necessary pass from simple companions for scientific equipment essentially new space vehicles + any equipment + land systems + preparation of astronauts (at them skills and ability too could not will appear from anything). Me surprises (from my position of our time) as such in general it was possible. Process of knowledge to man in any way cannot be accelerated. On it is necessary to time so much, how many it is required, instead of it is so much, how many it would be desirable.
Therefore “return to back”, this false sensation when all is already clear and clear. And when all is already made as it is necessary. Actually all much more difficult also occurs much more slowly, than it seems.

even of not, 1200 km is quite a lot, I'd expect there to be some military bases in a 1200 km radius around the area.

You take map of the USSR and estimate the sizes of its territory. Then it will be clear that rockets with action radius in 1200 km could be established in the country only “for this purpose what shoot to the our population...”  It, of course, joke and if it is serious them established about country borders that “the enemy troops potential” would be within reach. Spend circle in radius of 1200 km from Dyatlov pass and try find there though one border about which there were NATO countries. Then it will be clear, where and as such rockets could settle down.

It is true that for a military team to reach the location in a short amount of time ( less than a day or the hikers would have probably noted explosions in the sky in their diaries the day before) a base and all the infrastructures would have to be relatively near.
do we know the distance of the closest military base that could hypotetically send a retrieve team in the area?

The nearest military part was ~ in 300 km from pass. It were radio engineering armies team which provided communication on territory of the USSR in interests of the defensive ministry. In Ivdel in the end of 1958, and on the East from Ivdel, have started place brigade of railway armies team which began building of the railway from Ivdel to Ob river. They the basic weapon had shovels, and rifles were only for guard duty execution. Than other armies was not closer at that time.
Before to send search group it is necessary ask itself question (and receive definite answer!): what for it is necessary? If such answer is not present, it means it is necessary understand, how you fantasy.

I admit the teory of the rocket/airplane accident as a motive may not be exceptionally strong ( still stronger than others) but I am still convinced that human intervention is the most plausible reason for the group to leave the tent, even if the debries is totally unrelated to the whole accident, and fell on the area decades later.

If it so, please list those signs and the facts which speak about intervention of other people. If such arguments are not present, it will be too fantasy sign. If the person cannot explain to itself (and another) that occurs, it not occasion for this purpose what consider that there was malicious intention of other people.

[sarapuk]

Hello everyone, I'm new to the forum :)

I have a theory that may explain the presence of military in the area, even if there were no restrictions or weapon tests.
I don't know if this has already been presented in the forum, in that case i didn't notice it and apologize.
btw bear with me:

we know several pieces of debris have been found in the recent years in the area.
I am not an engineer but these "grid stiffened panels" seem to be commonly used in aircrafts, or generally in stuff that has to be light, and resistant to pressures/solicitation.
I have found evidence of at least 3 of these debris recovered in the area of the dyatlov incident:






I also found years ago a picture on panoramio of another piece, similar in size to the first, but I have lost the pic and can't seem to be able to recover it online anywhere... according to the geolocalization of the picture, it was found a couple miles SW of the tent location, on the other side of the cliff.

My theory is, bear with me, that an accident happened to some kind of (possibly top secret) aircraft high in the air, maybe even a reentry capsule from a space test, and the
debris fell all over the area.
a team of military were sent to recover the debris and to cleanup the evidence, and to their surprise spotted the tent of the Dyatlov expedition, being them possible witnesses of the accident, the decision was made to silence them by staging their death.

A team of military approached the tent and at gunpoint forced the hikers to leave the tent, and walk away in the night hoping for the cold to do the job.
maybe they were restrained, and questioned first, explaining the abrasions on Dyatlov's ankles, maybe some of them tried to react, and were beaten up causing the lesser injuries found on them, compatible with a fight, but they were ultimately overpowered and forced to venture in the night.

all the cameras were left in the tent, but maybe Zolotoryov managed to sneak one, hiding it under his clothes, same for one of the knives, keep in mind the harsh conditions
were no walk in the park even for the military, and in the darkness they didn't notice.

maybe the military, just to be sure, forced the hikers to abandon even more clothes on their way down to the slope ( some clothes were found scattered on the trail to the
cedar, relatively close to the tent).
While the military were "cleaning up" some of them noticed a fire under the cedar, sign that some of the hikers had somehow survived, and hunted them down causing the more severe injuries.
maybe stepping on their chests, beating them with blunt objects, or pushing their own weight on the side of the head with a knee, or pushing them in the ravine, in order to make this ordeal appear as an accident ( or maybe the ravine fall was an actual accident).

why no military tracks?
maybe they were using snowshoes, that distribute more evenly the weight and leave less permanent compression tracks in the snow.

why the radioactivity on some specific clothes?
maybe someone in the group recovered a pice of debris, hence not all the clothes were radioactive, but only those who entered into contact with the debris. or maybe as someone else pointed out, the melting snow accumulated it onto some of the corpses clothes found in the ravine after collecting it from the area.
I have no idea if that kind of radioactivity is compatible with a vehicle reentrying from orbit or if it requires some specific isotopes, but maybe the craft had a nuclear battery in it akin to some space probes.

I know this explanation does not answer to ALL the questions, but at least it could be a plausible reason ( i think) to have hostile military forces in the area. despite it not being a restricted weapon testing area.
And yes i know the debris could be a recent thing, happened decades after the dyatlov accident, but 2 unusual fenomenons in the same place may well not be a coincidence.

on an unrelated note, a few years ago, some strange thing was found ( possibly fallen from the sky) in russia, albeit very far from the Dyatlov incident region, that has a section
closely resempling the grid pattern on the dyatlov debris:
https://www.livescience.com/19239-ufo-fragment-siberia-forest.html

I know it's just speculations, but could this be a plausible explanation to have a human cause to the group leaving the tent?
what do you guys think about it? 

This is another angle on the Murder of the Dyatlov Group by the Military, this one because of some Air Craft Incident. It just doesnt make sense. Why would the Military Authorities want to MURDER their own people  !  ?  The Dyatlov Group were STUDENTS who would one day be of use to the USSR. Just because there was an accident in the Sky  !  ? 

[Jacques-Emile]

NATO 1200 km. away?  Not so!  NATO was 30 km. away - up!
Sverdlovsk rocket shot down FG Powers American in 1960!  With SAM special missile. You wonder when Soviets develop this rocket?  1958-1959? They launched from SAM installation NW of Sverdlovsk. Was Ural Technology Institute developing secret rocket?

[Jacques-Emile]

U-2 had 24 unchallenged flyovers before May Day 1960. Chelyabinsk was information target. Sverdlovsk was a few minutes ahead. US did not know of S-75 kill over China in 1959 (according to Soviet sources - according to Western sources, the first loss of a U-2 over China was in 1962). The shoot down of Gary Powers' U-2 over Russia. Would develop this rocket, and test on dummy craft over Urals. On May Day, rockets also killed Soviet chase plane over Urals. Busy place.

[Loose}{Cannon]

How they get Sputnik 1 in orbit in 1957? 

[Jacques-Emile]

SAM experimental base 67 km. NE of Sverdlovsk. Ask CIA. https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP78T04751A000300080018-6.pdf.

[sarapuk]

NATO 1200 km. away?  Not so!  NATO was 30 km. away - up!
Sverdlovsk rocket shot down FG Powers American in 1960!  With SAM special missile. You wonder when Soviets develop this rocket?  1958-1959? They launched from SAM installation NW of Sverdlovsk. Was Ural Technology Institute developing secret rocket?

The Ural Technology Institute wasnt a Military College developing weapons.

[sarapuk]

U-2 had 24 unchallenged flyovers before May Day 1960. Chelyabinsk was information target. Sverdlovsk was a few minutes ahead. US did not know of S-75 kill over China in 1959 (according to Soviet sources - according to Western sources, the first loss of a U-2 over China was in 1962). The shoot down of Gary Powers' U-2 over Russia. Would develop this rocket, and test on dummy craft over Urals. On May Day, rockets also killed Soviet chase plane over Urals. Busy place.

It doesnt mean that any Planes or Rockets or Missiles were in the area where the Dyatlov Group went.

[sarapuk]

SAM experimental base 67 km. NE of Sverdlovsk. Ask CIA. https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP78T04751A000300080018-6.pdf.

Thats still a long way from the area where the Dyatlov Group went.

[Jacques-Emile]

SAM experimental base 67 km. NE of Sverdlovsk. Ask CIA. https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP78T04751A000300080018-6.pdf.

Thats still a long way from the area where the Dyatlov Group went.

Real for sure? Look the train from Sverdlovsk to Serov goes right through Reftinsky-67 km. from Sverdlovsk!  By Reka Reft lake!  That missile base-right there-shot down U2!  They traveled through the town, those Dyatlov guys. You know for sure no Ural Polytechnic work for military?  Really??

[Jacques-Emile]

You can trust CIA map, ok?  See?  CIA map of train track to Serov goes right by Reftinsky site.  Other train track going north from Sverdlovsk goes by other SAM site.

[WAB]

SAM experimental base 67 km. NE of Sverdlovsk. Ask CIA. https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP78T04751A000300080018-6.pdf.

What should I ask from CIA? What they then did not know? Or why they date this document already after have brought down Powers?
That that it is designated on this scheme not "SAM experimental base", these are points of arrangement of usual rocket battalions which there have appeared more than in one half year after there has passed Dyatlov group.
In my opinion you very poorly understand about what speak.

[WAB]

SAM experimental base 67 km. NE of Sverdlovsk. Ask CIA. https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP78T04751A000300080018-6.pdf.

Thats still a long way from the area where the Dyatlov Group went.

Real for sure? Look the train from Sverdlovsk to Serov goes right through Reftinsky-67 km. from Sverdlovsk!  By Reka Reft lake!  That missile base-right there-shot down U2!  They traveled through the town, those Dyatlov guys.

What relation takes place, where they have passed by train in current one half hour (and where there were rocket battalions in one half year after) to place where they were lost? It is located on 700 km (or on 430 miles) to the north from this place.

You know for sure no Ural Polytechnic work for military?  Really??

I precisely know theme of works Ural enterprises in 1959 and earlier. Also what you want tell, if have asked this question?

[WAB]

You can trust CIA map, ok?  See?  CIA map of train track to Serov goes right by Reftinsky site.  Other train track going north from Sverdlovsk goes by other SAM site.

O`K. Let this way passes by rail by this place. Well also what it means? They have left on 430 miles to the north. Then, what for us know this place for you? Radius of action of anti-aircraft missiles S-75 on  surface of the earth 35 … 40 km, and distance from this place to  place death of Dyatlov group almost in 20 times more.
Also what we have received as result?

[Jacques-Emile]

What should I ask from CIA? What they then did not know? Or why they date this document already after have brought down Powers?
That that it is designated on this scheme not "SAM experimental base", these are points of arrangement of usual rocket battalions which there have appeared more than in one half year after there has passed Dyatlov group.
In my opinion you very poorly understand about what speak.

Let me simplify explanation for you.
The CIA likely put the date on the photograph and map do date when they were prepared. Does that make sense?
The CIA had an interest in these things on May 27, 1960. Does that make sense?
Did the S-750 SAM site exist on May 1?  Yes it shot down the U2. Did it exist on 1/2/59?  I do not know. If it was constructed before 1/5/60, perhaps it was started by 1/2/59?  I think so. Was the CIA interested in such things?  Yes.
Let me stop there you can ask questions.

[Jacques-Emile]

What relation takes place, where they have passed by train in current one half hour (and where there were rocket battalions in one half year after) to place where they were lost? It is located on 700 km (or on 430 miles) to the north from this place.

How do spies think, but I am not spy. If I was CIA spy to find secrets of construction of AK-47  I travel New York to Moscow to Vladimir to Izhvesk, ask for location of Izhmash Factory, go there with camera?  NO! How would I spy secret Izhmash building of AK-47?  Not so obvious!  Maybe local person Izhvesk takes pictures, meets me at train station, give me film, I go to Perm. Why Perm?  No factory there!  You answer.

I precisely know theme of works Ural enterprises in 1959 and earlier. Also what you want tell, if have asked this question?

In this I speak to sarapuk but you answer as expert. Institute was not military college she said that they worked on no military projects. You agree?

[sarapuk]

SAM experimental base 67 km. NE of Sverdlovsk. Ask CIA. https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP78T04751A000300080018-6.pdf.

Thats still a long way from the area where the Dyatlov Group went.

Real for sure? Look the train from Sverdlovsk to Serov goes right through Reftinsky-67 km. from Sverdlovsk!  By Reka Reft lake!  That missile base-right there-shot down U2!  They traveled through the town, those Dyatlov guys. You know for sure no Ural Polytechnic work for military?  Really??

Yes really, I have a friend whose Brother went to that College. No stories of such Military activity.

[sarapuk]

You can trust CIA map, ok?  See?  CIA map of train track to Serov goes right by Reftinsky site.  Other train track going north from Sverdlovsk goes by other SAM site.

Yes I believe that the Map is correct. But it doesnt mean that any SAM's were involved in the Dyatlov Incident.

[sarapuk]

What should I ask from CIA? What they then did not know? Or why they date this document already after have brought down Powers?
That that it is designated on this scheme not "SAM experimental base", these are points of arrangement of usual rocket battalions which there have appeared more than in one half year after there has passed Dyatlov group.
In my opinion you very poorly understand about what speak.

Let me simplify explanation for you.
The CIA likely put the date on the photograph and map do date when they were prepared. Does that make sense?
The CIA had an interest in these things on May 27, 1960. Does that make sense?
Did the S-750 SAM site exist on May 1?  Yes it shot down the U2. Did it exist on 1/2/59?  I do not know. If it was constructed before 1/5/60, perhaps it was started by 1/2/59?  I think so. Was the CIA interested in such things?  Yes.
Let me stop there you can ask questions.

Sounds ok to Me. I mean it seems feasible and worth bringing it into this Forum.

[Jacques-Emile]

Why the SAM matter is relevant.
The CIA stated in NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE ESTIMATE NUMBER 11-5-59  SOVIET CAPABILITIES IN GUIDED MISSILES AND SPACE VEHICLES (5.11.59)

In the absence of evidence, but considering Soviet technical capabilities and probable needs, we estimate that within the next year or two the USSR will probably have available two additional surface-to-air missile systems, one designed primarily to engage very low al- titude targets, the other for long-range (on the order of 100 n.m.) engagement of targets at altitudes up to 90,000 feet. These systems will have increased kill capabilities against aircraft and cruise-type missiles.

Estimates, but no evidence. The CIA was desperate for spy data to match with the U2 photographs. And the KGB was on the hunt for spies.

[WAB]

What should I ask from CIA? What they then did not know? Or why they date this document already after have brought down Powers?
That that it is designated on this scheme not "SAM experimental base", these are points of arrangement of usual rocket battalions which there have appeared more than in one half year after there has passed Dyatlov group.
In my opinion you very poorly understand about what speak.

Let me simplify explanation for you.

If you consider that for me it is necessary speak easier …. 

The CIA likely put the date on the photograph and map do date when they were prepared. Does that make sense?

I had a well-founded suspicion that dates on these documents stand the wrong. You are assured, what they correct? Then I will explain to you why I so I think in other (next) message.

The CIA had an interest in these things on May 27, 1960. Does that make sense?
Did the S-750 SAM site exist on May 1?  Yes it shot down the U2. Did it exist on 1/2/59? 

On 1/2/59 on this place it rockets yet was not. There were antiaircraft guns, and rockets only were going establish there. Them have established in second half 1959. After that there was period when military men trained with them work and serve, and as adjusted all systems. By May, 01st, 1969 all this work has not been finished yet. Was a lot of not clear and errors in work. Interaction has not been co-ordinated with aircraft. For this reason the plane because the aircraft did not inform on departures for rocket parts has been brought down by mistake, and transponder  (“one's own or stranger”) yet have not established at that time.

I do not know.

It is not surprising. I know. Therefore also I can tell so definitely.

If it was constructed before 1/5/60, perhaps it was started by 1/2/59? 

The question is means has “been begun"(c). It always exists vaguely. Clearly only that by the necessary time (on May, 01st 1960) it was on place and worked. Let it is not so good, but the problem has executed.
Whether knew CIA, what there all it is and works? I think that was not present, differently it means that they suited themselves troubles at world politics level. You think, what all structure of CIA at that time was wreckers? Or they were so illiterate, what did not understand elementary events?
I think that fools there do not serve also illiterate there are not present. Special services always were intellectual elite. Could that that not know or not be in time learn.
I think that occurrence of such systems and their characteristic was for CIA unpleasant surprise. As well as occurrence of nuclear bomb in the USSR in 1949.

I think so. Was the CIA interested in such things?  Yes.

Have interest and receive the concrete and correct information it not same. War of secret service has begun very much for a long time (in the Stone Age) and always passed with variable success. In this case it is an obvious failure of CIA with bad consequences for the USA.

Let me stop there you can ask questions.

It turns out so that I to you answer questions more, than you to me. Meanwhile you only ascertain obvious events and do not try analyze objectively at all them.

[WAB]

What relation takes place, where they have passed by train in current one half hour (and where there were rocket battalions in one half year after) to place where they were lost? It is located on 700 km (or on 430 miles) to the north from this place.

How do spies think, but I am not spy. If I was CIA spy to find secrets of construction of AK-47 

I understand that you not spy. Because you at all do not understand an industrial espionage essence. All secrets АК-47 were “on surface”. It was necessary receive it in hands and disassemble. Case was in how organized all technological chain. It too can be traced and even buy the patent, but all case in manufacture and technology subtleties. Chinese very much have received for long time both technology and all recommendations about manufacture, but all the same, their products on quality very strongly concede opposite Soviet or Russian. Simply copy АК-47 (and all following updating) it little. It turns out as picture copy, we will tell …, Rembrant draw by the usual artist.

I travel New York to Moscow to Vladimir

Excuse, and what you are going find in Vladimir? Why at you instead of the plane (made under the stolen drawings.  ) the tractor turns out? - We had such known joke. 
There was factory for manufacture tractors for landowners.

to Izhvesk, ask for location of Izhmash Factory, go there with camera? 

1. Ask, where there is place of factory it is not necessary. At it on the main facade it is written by capital letters … 
2.With the camera, even hidden, to such factory nobody will start up. There the protection and safety system worked very well. As well as at all other such factories. However, as it works after 2000th years I any more I do not know, but I can guess.

NO! How would I spy secret Izhmash building of AK-47?  Not so obvious!  Maybe local person Izhvesk takes pictures, meets me at train station, give me film,

… And at you have the tractor instead of the plane … a children's pistol instead of the submachine gun … In industrial espionage turns out it is necessary steal ideas, instead of drawings and photos. And for this purpose necessary the agent more talented, than the designer who does that unit construct.

I go to Perm. Why Perm?  No factory there!  You answer.

It is not necessary replace my words and thoughts with the. It is called substitution of concepts or
twitching in gambling. I spoke (if you well remember our correspondence) that even if they have passed by rockets and have left to 4000 miles further these rockets have no relation to that has occurred of Dyatlov group.
   If you try offer hint that they have left there what transfer secrets of these rockets (which there then was not in that time) it:
1.Is unreasonable fiction,
2.Suspicion to plagiarism from Rakitin (his real name - Rjabuhin) with his spies “KGB – CIA”. It is in general be antiscientific fantasy. I already many times wrote, why it so is.

I precisely know theme of works Ural enterprises in 1959 and earlier. Also what you want tell, if have asked this question?

In this I speak to sarapuk but you answer as expert. Institute was not military college she said that they worked on no military projects. You agree?

It is and yes and is not present. Any production of machine-building industry and other enterprise can always be production of double appointment. Both is as military, and as civil. For example, the usual bus can be transport military structure, therefore be used as military means. Therefore all can be understood as doubly. Even that some participants of Dyatlov group which technologies of radioactive substances studied, could do both nuclear bomb, and as fuel for atomic power stations. But they have not been connected in any way with rockets. They have not been connected with antiaircraft rockets in any way about which you speak constantly.

[WAB]

Why the SAM matter is relevant.
The CIA stated in NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE ESTIMATE NUMBER 11-5-59  SOVIET CAPABILITIES IN GUIDED MISSILES AND SPACE VEHICLES (5.11.59)

In the absence of evidence, but considering Soviet technical capabilities and probable needs, we estimate that within the next year or two the USSR will probably have available two additional surface-to-air missile systems, one designed primarily to engage very low al- titude targets, the other for long-range (on the order of 100 n.m.) engagement of targets at altitudes up to 90,000 feet. These systems will have increased kill capabilities against aircraft and cruise-type missiles.

Estimates, but no evidence. The CIA was desperate for spy data to match with the U2 photographs. And the KGB was on the hunt for spies.

Here it is that case when I have started doubt that dates in CIA documents concern to 1959. Then still rockets with range in 100 km (if you have correctly specified this distance) and yet have not started develop for the low purposes. And at all have not written the technical project for their working out. It was already in the mid-sixties, that is minimum in 5 years after them.
It is necessary be able understand such details because we can easily leave from theme which we should discuss.
Rockets of complex S-75 already then could amaze the purposes at height practically 30 km (~ 90 000 ft). CIA hunted For them, but KGB successfully catched with spies at that time. The USA have received system S-75 when Israel has stolen it at Egypt and has transferred the USA, but it is all was already after 1959. By the way it was version of export variant only.
Therefore this discussion at the given forum already is malicious offtop.

[Jacques-Emile]

Therefore this discussion at the given forum already is malicious offtop.

I reply longer and then do not submit.
My theory is, bear with me, that an accident happened to some kind of (possibly top secret) aircraft high in the air, maybe even a reentry capsule from a space test, and the debris fell all over the area. a team of military were sent to recover the debris and to cleanup the evidence, and to their surprise spotted the tent of the Dyatlov expedition, being them possible witnesses of the accident, the decision was made to silence them by staging their death.
I try to support Webby new beginner post and agreed, I do not do it successfully.  I will not try.  Not malicious.