Wolverine

[Ziljoe]

Hi Jean Daniel Reid's

Thank you. I do believe many of the theories, hypothesis have valid points.

Some of the theories may overlap or support ideas that others have. I do favour Igor b's wolverine because it is the most logical but  I do not rule out Teddy's or the involvement of outsiders.

Igor b goes into detailed accounts of the physical injuries and position of the bodies , links the findings of the deaths with clinical research , testimonies from people that have encountered  wolverines ( a Wolverine licking their face when they were asleep in a tent). He also supports this with the documents and statements , for example, markings on some of the clothes returned that would not wash off, the reaction of the search dogs at the pass from the helicopter.

Teddy's theory  is also of interest but for a different reason. Teddy looks at it from the documents and written statements and links events with other activities at the time which can not be ruled out and gives a lot to ponder.  It involves staging and a cover up and explains some of the inconsistency from written reports etc.

I also do not rule out , outsiders forcing them out of the tent. There are many versions of who , why and with what tools did they kill.. I often wonder about that lone Mansi hunter that was nearby the day before.

There's nothing to stop us from picking bits from different hypothesis and joining them together to come up with a satisfactory explanation of what happened to the hikers.

I now favour the Wolverine after dismissing the idea for several years . I found Igor's explanation annoyingly solid and complete.

However, I continue to read everyone's hypothesis as new evidence and observations come to light.

Igor's b theory would also work if you took away the Wolverine , changed it to someone throwing in some gas at the tent and then leaving and having no more input. It is that simple.
 

[Jean Daniel Reuss]

              Reply #60
...................................
 I do believe many of the theories, hypothesis have valid points.
Some of the theories may overlap or support ideas that others have.
......................................................

Igor B.'s theory explains very well the exit of the tent by the visit of a wolverine because he specifies several details.

1) ••• A temperature just below 0° C. For the hikers, this temperature seemed mild,
which explains why the hikers went out underdressed, as they might have thought to return quickly to the tent and stay out only a few minutes.

2) •••  In a small volume the effects of the spray were magnified.
See :
Catabatic Wind-Acute Stress Reaction-Cold Air Drops ---> Acute Stress Reaction
                            Lupos = Günter Wolf had evaluated:
                       Air volume tent = 3,5 m³

(I do not think it is enough to fire a shotgun in the air for the hikers to come out immediately without holding the axes in their hands).

3) •••  The stench dissuades them from returning immediately to the tent and encourages them to resort to another solution: lighting a fire near the cedar tree.

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

4) Together with Per Inge Oestmoen Oestmoen, I believe that the injuries found at the autopsy can only be explained by a hostile human attack.

  Theories Discussion  --->  General Discussion  --->    Refutation of the conclusions of expert Tumanov
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?showtopic=51

( Reply# =  Coob# )

1/ Radio "Komsomolskaya Pravda":
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=59943 
pp=14-Coob#280    (261-280)

2/ Radio "Komsomolskaya Pravda":
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=60394 
pp=15-Coob#291    (281-300)   

3/ Forensic expert Tumanov contradicts himself in his article:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=91648 
pp=79-Coob#1577  (1561-1580)

4/ Miscellaneous:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?showtopic=5133&st=1720&p=92884&#entry92884
pp=87-Coob#1727  (1721-1740)
 
5/ On self-harm of hands of the frozen
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?showtopic=5133&st=1960&p=95223&#entry95223:
pp=99-Coob#1972  (1961-1980)

6/ When the abrasions happened can not be accurately determined:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?showtopic=5133&st=1980&p=95314&#entry95314
pp=100-Coob#1982  (1981-2000)

7/ When the abrasions happened can not be accurately determined:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?showtopic=5133&st=1980&p=95361&#entry95361
pp=100-Coob#1985  (1981-2000)

8/ On the preservation of Vishnevsky (aka death) spots:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=96097
pp=101-Coob#2004     (2001-2020)

9/ About dark blood in the heart:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=96112
pp=101-Coob#2005    (2001-2020)

10/ Again radio "Komsomolskaya Pravda":
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=106586
pp=106-Coob#2113    (2101-2120)


I am not competent in Vishnevsky stains and other difficult to interpret forensic clues.
For the moment I have more confidence in the conclusions of Eduard Tumanov, professor and expert in the Russian National University and Pirogov Institute (They were attacked) than in the conclusions of Igor B., who is an anonymous resident of Ekateringburg, (they fell and got injured or crushed).

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

5) Ziljoe, you seem to me to underestimate the possibilities of memory and intelligence of the wolverine, which have much in common with the boreal lynx, certain dogs or even the great apes.

If the (supposed wolverine) did not show up on the bodies of the hikers a few hours or days after its visit to the tent, I can only see 2 possible explanations:

 1) Either the wolverine was killed by a pack of wolves, a large bear that got angry and counter-attacked, a man with a gun... or others.

2) Or it joined the cozy basket of its master trainer who cuddled it and rewarded it for its efficiency.

[Ziljoe]

Hi Jean Daniel Reuss

There is little information on the Wolverine habits to this day but as I understand it....the Wolverine travel around 15 miles a day, a solitary animal out of mating season and has a large hunting habitat. It will hunt various beasts if it sees an opportunity or compete with wolves or bears over kills  but tries to avoid direct confrontation. It will fight a bear ,or wolves  and by what I've seen , seems to do great damage on the physical side of things.

It also has this spray like a skunk,  if I understand correctly, it has two separate types of spray, 1) where it marks it's food and territory 2) a different mixture in its defence spray. It is this 2nd spray that links the event's.

The Wolverine was not necessarily looking to attack the hickers, this must be understood., Rather the smell of food intrigued the Wolverine to the tent. They are reported to have a keen sense of smell and can detect food or small animals below several feet of snow.

The Wolverine would have no interest in the biscuits or pork lion that were in the tent after the spraying of its defence glan.

The hikers are now sprayed with the toxin and the tent with left over food. All the beasts in the area would be put off eating anything left over.

 Hence the search dogs not wanting to get off the helicopter 3 weeks later, they could detect the defence spray.  This is an important  incident when we take in the fact that it was so unusual that it was documented .  Hunting dogs may have been trained or familiar with the smell but these search dogs weren't.

I understand that you believe the injuries were caused by the human hand and I do read what you put forward Jean.

[Игорь Б.]

These people do not realize that they were lucky to touch the mystery of the death of the Dyatlov group:

Tent got sprayed by skunk, inside included, decided to cut losses and dumped tent and left, anything I could of done to salvage it?

Dog barked at a skunk the skunk sprayed my tent and dog. This happened at 1am, decided to just pack everything that didn't smell too bad into the car and trash the rest. In retrospect could I have gotten the stink out of the tent?

It was more the smell was so bad just being near it made my gf puke.

https://www.reddit.com/r/camping/comments/2crd8x/tent_got_sprayed_by_skunk_inside_included_decided/

Three hikers had empty stomachs:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=91073

[Ziljoe]

Hi Igor B. I have just read your update on slobodin's fracture.

"Returning to the issue of post-mortem cracking of the frontal bone in Slobodin. Namely, that in the place of the crack, which was at
the very bottom, the substance of the brain froze last:"

Sounds logical , do you have any clinical data/evidence that this has happened before or since. I did find a forum in USA that discussed it as a possibility? .

[Игорь Б.]

Расположение повреждений зависит от равномерности или неравномерности промерзания головы.
В первом случае возникают симметричные повреждения, во втором - односторонние, в области, противоположной месту максимального воздействия холода (например - на правой половине черепа при положении трупа лежа на правом боку и наоборот).

http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=108717

Слободин лежит на левом боку - трещина слева.

[Ziljoe]

This link might be of interest.

It has some case studies .

Warning! There are images of bodies that might be distressing to some .

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6474461/#!po=63.8889

It shows the colourisation of skin, face, knees and feet , along with abrasions with hypothermic death. There is mention of a skull fracture. Some of the body positions are similar.

[Charles]

nothing here

[Ziljoe]

"Returning to the issue of post-mortem cracking of the frontal bone in Slobodin. Namely, that in the place of the crack, which was at the very bottom, the substance of the brain froze last:"

The crack was not post-mortem and it was not "the crack" but multiple cracks: Slobodin's skull was literally crushed with multiple fractures.

How do you know it was not post- mortem Charles?. It says fracture , not fractures.  "Literally crushed "?  , Where are the multiple fractures Charles?

[GlennM]

Ziljoe,
Can you provide me a quick sequence of events as you see it starting from the wolverine at the tent to the expiration of the last hiker. I believe there is something interesting in your take on this tragedy.

[Ziljoe]

Can do GlennM.
Although , I give all credit to Igor B and his work. I may get some things wrong as I'll be doing this from memory. Some things I suggest may differ from Igor B and I am happy to be corrected but will probably be insignificant to the general sequence.

Igor B suggests they left the cache site earlier, this is due to the two photos of them on skis in the white out. The angle  of light in these photos suggests this.

The poor weather conditions were the factor in deciding to pitch the tent on the slope. ( I am not sure about this because I feel the navigation would be easy. Slope, up/down , hit tree line find campsite in wood.Anyway it's irrelevant. The tent is where it is.)

There was a warm weather front, this is factual because of the raised foot prints.

The time of day of the incident i suggest was either evening or morning. The reason being that food was out along with some sort of porridge/ Coco /ham, this would take time to heat/thaw . I would imagine they would try to eat all at the same time , given the logistics and lack of administration. It's a small space for 9 people to be sheltering , eating, writing , cooking , cleaning feet ,drying clothes etc. Things wood need to be planned. Especially on the slope. In the Forrest they could eat outside by the fire.

Two of the group may have been out to relieve themselves , tent entrance slightly open. Perhaps the Wolverine had entered at that moment and was sniffing about. The others return to the entrance and start to take their foot wear off. ( In my thoughts , it's not about being able to put one boot on in the emergency, rather the opposite, haven taken one off is the exact moment that something happened. Anyway, this type of scenario could have happened in a number of ways.)

1)Wolverine is in the tent and sprays.

2) cut tent open after  inhaling spray. ( Maybe the two of hikers are outside).

3) group keep their distance from tent , eyes, lungs, effected . Maybe try to approach tent but the substance/smell irritates their condition more.

4) discussion on best option is to go to wood. ( Weather Visibility/condtions may be ok at this point)

5) decide to find best wood for warmth is ceder, group not willing to risk return to tent.

6) group head towards the ceder for wood or for water to try and combat the effects of the spray. This is where  a number of events could have played out.
Torch maybe left on slope ,if it was afternoon to evening , as an indicator to return to tent location after they try to wash/warm up etc.

A) they went to ceder to make fire, fire not good enough. Then snow shelter/cave and something went wrong, like snow cave collapsing. Two Yuri's are wet or exhausted from trying to dig out the ravine 4 and the other three try to return to the tent .

Or

B) they went to ravine to find water, then something went wrong . The Yuri's got wet, not badly injured but for arguments sake , just wet up to waste height. Group then go to ceder to make a fire. The den is started whilst the Yuri's try to warm up. The cold front is coming , and a snow cave is found in the ravine , they decide to make it bigger by kicking with feet and it collapses . Dyatlov , Zina, Slobidin can't help. They go back to the tent and the cold does the rest.

I would need to read through Igor b's theory again to be more exact. Much of it is to do with who had frostbite etc. The Yuri's might have paradoxical undressing but it is evident that there was activity at the ceder and the ravine that is consistent with survival. Fire, den, fur branches that could be used to keep their bodies off the cold ground etc. Some of these branches were not used. To me, everything suggests survival against the elements.

I would suspect the three on the slope were the last to die. A desperation to survive by returning to the tent as things were so bad at the ceder/ravine.

Strong supporting evidence of the Wolverine are the dilated pupils.

And the behaviour of the search dog's when arriving at the seen. They had to be forced off the helicopter. I can imagine dogs being a bit reluctant, but not to the extent that someone bothered to say this in a statement. It was that unusual that it was reported. Animal sense's can tell us a lot.

Sorry if it's a bit long GlennM. There's a number of scenarios that could be played out. I'm stuck between the ravine 4 or the 2 Yuri's expiring first because of the confused reporting of clothing from the Yuri's. I can only think the Yuri's were left at the fire to look after themselves until the others retrieved stuff from the tent. but it does look like they were laid in the position they were found.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

[Charles]

nothing here

[Ziljoe]

fracture, not fractures

I had forgotten, but I can't find the link to the page with the radiographies of Slobodin's skull: could you share the link?

What have you forgotten Charles?

[Charles]

nothing here

[Ziljoe]

That there was only one visible crack on the radiography.

.

Good, I'm glad you remembered .

If you read the link of case studies on autopsies of hypothermia , you will find reference to cases been found lying on one's back with arms crossed ( dyatlov) . Tunneling ,(Zina and Slobidin) , abrasions, hematoma, hemorrhaging etc. Swelling of ears and nose. Abrasions on top of feet and knuckles. There is one there with a skull fracture but no signs of outward damage.

Because Slobidin was lying on his side and wearing a hat, it is proposed that as the brain and fluids started to freeze, it is this that caused the crack.

[Charles]

nothing here

[Ziljoe]

If you had a link for a link for them , they will be where you left them. If you have different data, it would be good to see.

[Charles]

nothing here

[Charles]

nothing here

[Ziljoe]

If you had a link for the x-rays that you refer too, they will be where you left them. If you have different data, it would be good to see.

[Charles]

nothing here

[Ziljoe]

I refer to your X-rays, the ones you mentioned.

Sorry Charles, cut to the chase. I'm a bit lost , could you say what you mean? What x-rays? You mentioned x-rays that you had a link to but now can't find?

[Charles]

nothing here

[Charles]

nothing here

[Ziljoe]

Charles,are you not getting enough attention at home?

[Charles]

nothing here

[Ziljoe]

So you are into fairytales about the freeze causing Slobodin's skull fracture, but you don't have the courage to admit that you can't even refer to a radiography of his skull because it does not not exist and because the soviet forensic didn't bother to make x-rays of the hikers... they concluded to "unknown compelling force" and it was alright for them, they were not so motivated to find the truth, no need to do x-rays...



They didn't do x-rays in 1959, of any of the hikers: why are you so afraid to say it?

Charles, we can only work with the information we have got. The clinical data to this day on death by hypothermia is varied and incomplete. However there are notable trends. We only have the autopsy reports to work with. Given the findings by evidence based practice or studies that are free on the internet, there are parallels to the reported injuries on the dyatlov hikers.

If they weren't trying to find the truth and wanted to cover up things, why would they even bother to report a fracture? Why not just say there was no fracture? You stated it slobodin's skull was smashed, I've not seen, read or heard anyone say that other than you.

There is no reports of anything other than a fracture. I don't know what the skills were of the investigators at the time, I don't know what acces to radiography they had at the time 1059 , let alone the resources of the area. They say unknown force and it is compelling. There is a chance that the investigation people were telling the truth. They just didn't know, there wasn't enough evidence to suggest human play. What would x-rays bring to the story?

They did an autopsy, cut their insides out and inspected their skulls, stomach contents , etc. What more do you want?

I will ask the moderator to delete some of these previous posts. It will be a bore for other people reading the thread. What a waste of time..... Muppet

[Charles]

nothing here

[Ziljoe]

Charles, why is everything you don't like a daydream or fantasy. Should they exray a bone that is already broken? You may think it's uplifting , but you are offering nothing but paranoia and speculation. There's a waiting list for x-rays in the UK today, forget 1959 Russia . If they were covering anything up, why let the information come out that they did. They could of covered up the whole thing from the start if they wanted to, if the were that powerful and clever.  They probably all wanted to get on with their own lives instead of some protracted investigation that they couldn't prove otherwise.

There had been several other tourist trips that had ended in tragedy . Good luck on finding your link to the x-rays you lost.

I also hope you are ok, I mean that genuinely.

[Charles]

nothing here