December 06, 2019, 08:46:24 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Elk(s) attack  (Read 5586 times)

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April 10, 2019, 01:21:47 PM
Reply #30
Offline

Ehtnisba


Hi Radim,
Your explanation is very interesting. Only that for footprints what I wanted to ask is not that human and elk are similar depth,but that elk's are much more lighter than human's. In this photo,the tracks you have circles as elk are really shallow compared.to the human one that is way deeper.

April 10, 2019, 01:49:15 PM
Reply #31

Radim

Guest
Hi Radim,
Your explanation is very interesting. Only that for footprints what I wanted to ask is not that human and elk are similar depth,but that elk's are much more lighter than human's. In this photo,the tracks you have circles as elk are really shallow compared.to the human one that is way deeper.

Very very good point Ehtnisba.
The problem with elks (globally deer animals)  and human footprints is that the human footprint is continual with larger surface. Especially in boots, especially with tears of fabric rounded on feets....(what is more probably than boots in our case) Elk has splited  footprint for two horns. It can caused a different decomposion by "time". Diferent light.
 Also take in mind the bad quality of photo.

However the width of elks print fits.


April 10, 2019, 01:51:13 PM
Reply #32

Radim

Guest
Does anybody know if this pictures are real or fakes?

https://dyatlovpass.com/camera-zolotaryov

April 10, 2019, 01:54:13 PM
Reply #33

Clacon

Guest
Hi Radim,

I think it's important bc I don't usually think of animals that are prey - vegetarian grazers - going on the rampage and charging trampling and kicking humans minding their own business in a tent, often.

They should technically only do it when territorial (mating season - the males attack) or when they think their young may be under threat (the females), and this corresponds to times of year.

I think if it was an elk attack, it was likely by females protecting their young.

As I say - I find it difficult to believe there was no tissue bruising - unless the blood froze before it could seep into the tissue. But this is something only an experienced cold weather coroner would know.

April 10, 2019, 02:00:21 PM
Reply #34
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
If the bodies were faced by heavy hypothermy, than probably were not present significant bruises.


If their faced by 400-700kgs weigh elk, than the mechanism of injuries really can be very similar like an car crash. How the coroner mentioned in report-Internal bodies injuries.

This elk teory says that elk killed nobody - he just caused the injuries and probably not to all of Dyatlavov members. Elk was "just"  the reason of time which they had to spent in nature without clothes. (probably excluding Dubininova and head injured teammate).

Coroner also got just a frozen bodies, in reports there is no mentionted that he was present at place (in mountines) - he probalby did not examinate the bodies at place but in the morgue.

So it can be the reason why the coroners could not accurately determine the real mechanism of injury. According their profesional experiences they compare the mechanism of injuries to car crash accidents - which they knew very well.

I also think that some of injuries could be caused during the dragging of frozen bodies on snow by rescuers. "COnfusion bruises".


And dont forget that it is 60 years ago. They had not any DNA proceduress any criminalised technics with high tech equpment like today.

I think the Dyatlavov pass coroners made a very good job whereas how bad they had an informations.

If an Elk or Elks attacked and caused injuries similar to a car crash then why no EXTERNAL traces, ie, NO SKIN OR MUSCLE DAMAGE to the Ravine bodies  !  ?

If you check the photo of Zinas deadbody, you can see some inpurity on her trousers. Many people say that it is grass. I dont think so. I will try to explain why:

1) grass in heavy snow area is unusual
2) Grass is soft - This "grass" on her trousers is too short and straight - hard material
3) The grass is visible only on her right hip (buttock)
4) distance dispersion of the "grass" is unusual (at one place it is very clustered, in lower position quite sparse)
5) This "grass" is stucked in trousers - it is not on surface

In my opinion this is not a grass, but elks hairs.

According your point about dead bodies in ravine. There are nowhere more detailed pictures of dead bodies or directly from ravine. This is very hard to say.
The whole chaos and whole Daytlavovs mystery is according my opinion caused by unprofessional "crime scene" documentation. 




We cant tell from just looking at the photo. And if it was Elk Hair then surely this would have been important enough to be mentioned in the Autopsy Report.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 02:36:13 AM by Teddy »
DB

April 10, 2019, 02:02:58 PM
Reply #35
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I do not say that the Dyatlavov pass was been killed by elk. No. (Excluding Dubininova and secondone with head wound, both of them  will probably died in all way after this meeting with elk/elks).

I just think that the elk/elks were the reason why the Dyatlavov pass frozen.


If exists some Picture of Dyatlavovs line formation prints, than I can make analyzation (description) of their movement, but I have not found usable Picture.

The Picture with footprints above just confirms to me, that the person really went without shoes without bergen. If the print in blue area on right is really elks (and Im starting to be sure it is really elks footprints) than the right elk footprint is less than 30cm next of human footprint. This confirms me of very close attack.

I dont see any ELK Hoof Prints  !  ?

OK, what are according your opinion the prints in blue borders ..?? (picture above)

I remember some years ago when I got interested in TRACKING.  I was especially interested in stories of Tracks in SNOW. What I learned was fairly straightforward. Tracks in Snow can be very misleading. There are factors at play that can give a completely wrong impression [ no pun intended ]. One factor is TEMPERATURE. Often overlooked. Another is RAIN. Obviously the depth of the Snow is important. So lets say a HOOF PRINT is made in the Snow. The Snow will change shape. How fast depends on the factors at play. Erosion is considered a fairly slow process. But it may change shape more quickly. So when the Dyatlov Search Parties found various PRINTS or TRACKS in the Snow those shapes would most likely be different to when they were first made. Do you see where Iam coming from.

I think I understand where are you heading.. (I work for 5 years as a scout in recco). In my opinion you have globaly true, but..
If there stayed a human footprint for 3 weeks, than the animals will stay also. It means that during circa 3 weeks (till searchers found first group) the weather was stable. And the prints in blue borders are animal prints. And very very close of human print. According the photo distance and compare with human footprint I guess that the animal print is circa 30cm from human left leg footprint.

This also could confirm the hit from right back side (right hip) - refer Zinas trousers.

So what arent we seeing dozens of such 'Animal Prints' in the Snow  !  ? 
DB

April 10, 2019, 02:05:17 PM
Reply #36
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I think we have just solved a substantial part of this mystery.

ELK, ELK, ELK

I think not. This is pure speculation, and no proof whatsoever that there are Elk Hairs or Prints.
DB

April 10, 2019, 02:09:14 PM
Reply #37
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Does anybody know if this pictures are real or fakes?

https://dyatlovpass.com/camera-zolotaryov

As far as we know they are real.
DB

April 10, 2019, 02:12:03 PM
Reply #38

Radim

Guest
Hi Radim,
Your explanation is very interesting. Only that for footprints what I wanted to ask is not that human and elk are similar depth,but that elk's are much more lighter than human's. In this photo,the tracks you have circles as elk are really shallow compared.to the human one that is way deeper.

Very very good point Ehtnisba.
The problem with elks (globally deer animals)  and human footprints is that the human footprint is continual with larger surface. Especially in boots, especially with tears of fabric rounded on feets....(what is more probably than boots in our case) Elk has splited  footprint for two horns. It can caused a different decomposion by "time". Diferent light.
 Also take in mind the bad quality of photo.

However the width of elks print fits.

Also také in mind unpredictable refraction of light on Picture.

April 10, 2019, 02:15:51 PM
Reply #39

Radim

Guest
Does anybody know if this pictures are real or fakes?

https://dyatlovpass.com/camera-zolotaryov

As far as we know they are real.

Have you ever submitted a "Rorszach test"?

April 10, 2019, 02:22:47 PM
Reply #40

Radim

Guest
Does anybody know if this pictures are real or fakes?

https://dyatlovpass.com/camera-zolotaryov

As far as we know they are real.



Have you ever submitted a "Rorszach test"?

When I was in military and we have to made the psychologist tests, we also made a "rorszach" test everytime.
Military psychologist recognized besides according "Rorszach test" our maturity, rationality and retreats. (Maybe other things). Who criticaly failed this test then he usually was not admitted in recco team.

Try to see at this pictures and tell me what do you see...



I will try to describe the pictures according my

April 10, 2019, 02:28:37 PM
Reply #41

Radim

Guest
If the bodies were faced by heavy hypothermy, than probably were not present significant bruises.


If their faced by 400-700kgs weigh elk, than the mechanism of injuries really can be very similar like an car crash. How the coroner mentioned in report-Internal bodies injuries.

This elk teory says that elk killed nobody - he just caused the injuries and probably not to all of Dyatlavov members. Elk was "just"  the reason of time which they had to spent in nature without clothes. (probably excluding Dubininova and head injured teammate).

Coroner also got just a frozen bodies, in reports there is no mentionted that he was present at place (in mountines) - he probalby did not examinate the bodies at place but in the morgue.

So it can be the reason why the coroners could not accurately determine the real mechanism of injury. According their profesional experiences they compare the mechanism of injuries to car crash accidents - which they knew very well.

I also think that some of injuries could be caused during the dragging of frozen bodies on snow by rescuers. "COnfusion bruises".


And dont forget that it is 60 years ago. They had not any DNA proceduress any criminalised technics with high tech equpment like today.

I think the Dyatlavov pass coroners made a very good job whereas how bad they had an informations.

If an Elk or Elks attacked and caused injuries similar to a car crash then why no EXTERNAL traces, ie, NO SKIN OR MUSCLE DAMAGE to the Ravine bodies  !  ?

If you check the photo of Zinas deadbody, you can see some inpurity on her trousers. Many people say that it is grass. I dont think so. I will try to explain why:

1) grass in heavy snow area is unusual
2) Grass is soft - This "grass" on her trousers is too short and straight - hard material
3) The grass is visible only on her right hip (buttock)
4) distance dispersion of the "grass" is unusual (at one place it is very clustered, in lower position quite sparse)
5) This "grass" is stucked in trousers - it is not on surface

In my opinion this is not a grass, but elks hairs.

According your point about dead bodies in ravine. There are nowhere more detailed pictures of dead bodies or directly from ravine. This is very hard to say.
The whole chaos and whole Daytlavovs mystery is according my opinion caused by unprofessional "crime scene" documentation. 



We cant tell from just looking at the photo. And if it was Elk Hair then surely this would have been important enough to be mentioned in the Autopsy Report.

In autopsy there are any known points of clothes recognization of any Dyatlavov pass member. I think this job is for criminalist technic. (Who was not presented at place).
« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 02:37:15 AM by Teddy »

April 10, 2019, 02:48:09 PM
Reply #42

Radim

Guest
Hi Radim,

I think it's important bc I don't usually think of animals that are prey - vegetarian grazers - going on the rampage and charging trampling and kicking humans minding their own business in a tent, often.

They should technically only do it when territorial (mating season - the males attack) or when they think their young may be under threat (the females), and this corresponds to times of year.

I think if it was an elk attack, it was likely by females protecting their young.

As I say - I find it difficult to believe there was no tissue bruising - unless the blood froze before it could seep into the tissue. But this is something only an experienced cold weather coroner would know.

Every animal can attack everytime in case of treat fell.
Check the video on first page. (I dont suppose the mating season because of snow presence). This elk in video just got between people and started to be agressive..because of treat fell (My opinion)


April 10, 2019, 02:53:08 PM
Reply #43

Radim

Guest


As I say - I find it difficult to believe there was no tissue bruising - unless the blood froze before it could seep into the tissue. But this is something only an experienced cold weather coroner would know.
[/quote]

I dont know - Im not coroner.

April 10, 2019, 03:58:27 PM
Reply #44

Radim

Guest
Ok, I have made an analyze of pictures.
However I would like to know your opinion before I confirm my "theory".
Because this probably will be the revolution view of Dyatlavov pass  bang1



Are you ready ?


April 10, 2019, 04:01:11 PM
Reply #45

Radim

Guest
….because the scenario of pictures is very very scared…..

April 10, 2019, 04:05:01 PM
Reply #46

Radim

Guest
and the guy who made this pictures had a very very strong will…..

April 10, 2019, 05:38:39 PM
Reply #47

Radim

Guest
Picture
Cameraman is also flashlight holder.


no 1) Flashlight is heading front to camera. Visible lens scratches. Three fingers down of photo. (black objects) - Just a panic photo.

no 2) Laying person on his/her right side.Scrumbled possition. Face is well visibled. Face is looking to cameraman. Distance from cameraman - circa 4,5m

no 3) Scrumbled person turned to left side from very close distance of cameraman. On the picture we can see a backs of person. Distance from cameraman - circa 1,5m.

no 4) Two person - Standing and layed .Standing body is inclined to laying body. Coat overlap on standing body is presented. Diagonal line from 1/3 left to 1/3 right corner presented - footprinted path. Around this bodies are spotted next 3 white dots - probably hikers or very deep prints. Well presented a fingerprint on camera len.

no 5) NO idea

no 6) Flashlight is shinig to 2 moving persons heading to cameraman. The shining black object in right down corner is a flat shape flashlight. One person is carring in arms another person. Wound person is holding rescuers kneck or the wounded is carring on rescuers backs. Diagonal edge (snow footprint path) is still presented. Persons from picture no 4.


no 7) Panic photo - same situation like picture no 1)

no 8) Elks left horn circa 1m from cameraman. Fingertprint on lent again presented. High grass presented.


no 9) Picture returned to 180 degrees. Flashlight is shining to air. Flashlight is laying on hard ice surface. Light scattering effect on ice surface. Bushes or high grass presented.

no 10) Two people. One is trying to lift second one to A/B position (refer the A/B transport position). Diagonal edge is not presented. Probably was the photo catched from kontra side than no 4 and 6.


no 11) NO idea.























dice web
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 11:46:49 PM by Radim »

April 10, 2019, 05:44:30 PM
Reply #48

Radim

Guest
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 05:55:32 PM by Radim »

April 10, 2019, 05:48:58 PM
Reply #49

Radim

Guest
just a very quick analyze.

"99" - Good night
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 06:30:36 PM by Radim »

April 10, 2019, 05:59:59 PM
Reply #50

Radim

Guest

April 11, 2019, 12:43:44 AM
Reply #51

Radim

Guest
If there is an interest in racional explanation of Dyatlovov pass, then I would like to give a talk with official russians (nowaday) investigators who are working on it at this time. I have some tips to be recognized...
Especially I would like to talk with forensis technics and Dyatlavov comunity representative who is carring their founded things.

My phone:
+420777117200

Have a nice day.

Radim

April 11, 2019, 01:56:27 AM
Reply #52

Radim

Guest
Correction of photo 7 (panic photo)

Visible black dark edges of elks body whitch is moving by side movement. Distance from cameraman - max. 2meters.
Cameraman has outstretched hand with flashlight. Hand is heading to elk.

The flashlight is heading partly in air, partly in way to cameraman.


Somebody who can, make the inversions of this photos!
« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 02:01:04 AM by Radim »

April 11, 2019, 02:24:32 AM
Reply #53

Radim

Guest

April 11, 2019, 02:25:28 AM
Reply #54

Radim

Guest
very fast sketch

April 11, 2019, 02:49:27 AM
Reply #55
Offline

Morski


That is tons of imagination, Radim  vroom1
What bothers me, elks or no elks, is why would someone just take the time to make photos in the middle of the night, in what seems to be a dire situation?

April 11, 2019, 03:05:54 AM
Reply #56
Online

Teddy

Administrator
Please note that the images from https://dyatlovpass.com/camera-zolotaryov, besides the first frame, are very small fragments of the actual photo. You can scale by the procket holes visible on scans 2 and 6.

   

April 11, 2019, 03:11:16 AM
Reply #57

Radim

Guest
Please note that the images from https://dyatlovpass.com/camera-zolotaryov, besides the first frame, are very small fragments of the actual photo. You can scale by the procket holes visible on scans 2 and 6.



   

Teddy,
sorry to say that, but your point is absolutely out of point. If you will make a picture from 100 m distance of Eifel tower, than you will try to say me that it is 1 cm width??

Im sorry to say again. But I will not reply for silly points.

April 11, 2019, 03:12:20 AM
Reply #58
Offline

Ehtnisba


The thing you have circled as a flashlight is the side square hole in the film . These photos are fragments which are only very small piece from the whole photo, the holes of the film are given for comparison. So said photos are actually 4-5mm as size. Your flashlight is one if those small holes, and two persons are less than 1mm ,which means very far, and if so far how come the light of the flashlight reached them...







April 11, 2019, 03:20:22 AM
Reply #59
Offline

Ehtnisba


Teddy is trying to say you that you are looking at PIECE of a photo which is no more than 1cm, these dark things in the edges are film holes . If you film a person from 1m he will be around 1,5 from the negative. Here we are seing objects that are 0 .5mm of the whole photo. So if you photograph the Eiffel Tower and it apoears as 0 .5 mm object in your photo,that means you are photographing it from an airplane .
Your two persons have to be more than 500m away to appear so small,and flashlight cannot light them that far.
The object is not a flat flashlight but a physical hole in the film.