December 01, 2020, 07:22:53 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Altercation on the pass  (Read 7166 times)

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June 25, 2020, 09:18:07 AM
Reply #30
Online

Jean Daniel Reuss




.......................
"I do not think there were any hikers posted or watching outside the tent."

I agree that it is possible they did not have a sentry outside. I am not fully convinced of this , but it is a possibility.
..........................................

@ alecsandros : Thank you for your specific questions which allow me to improve my scenario of the "altercation against ex-zek aggressors" by making my explanations more convincing.

...the larger non-folding knife....

   ••   With my hypothesis N°2, it is the introduction of an Improvised Suffocating Device releasing SO² that explains the rushed exit of the tent and the cutting of the canvas. See: Reply #20 and : General Discussion / Re: Tent was their lifeboat Reply #1, April 08, 2020.

For the first few minutes the hikers may not even have understood where the suffocating gas was coming from and that they were under attack.
In any case the hikers did not have time to take the knife, axes,the ice axe,..etc, which seems to indicate that they were not worried and that the surprise of the attack was total.

Thus the attackers had the advantage of being armed with blunt objects while the hikers had only their bare fists to defend themselves.
By fighting with a long object (about or longer than 1 m) the attackers could more easily keep the athletic hikers at a distance and avoid direct contact.

 • A light stick, which has the advantage of allowing a great speed of movement, generally causes non-fatal injuries.
(In everyday life a less exceptional case is when the opponent is an aggressive dog that can (hopefully) be prevented from getting close to you with a jab - the aggressive dog can be considered as an opponent known for its speed in dogfighting).
Below is a video that can give an idea of how to handle the light stick (weight about 400 g).


 • In contrast, the disadvantage of using a heavy bludgeon (weight about 4 kg) is that speed is lost. Therefore in this case it is preferable (for attackers) to wait for the right moment to be able to deliver a decisive blow strong enough to prevent the opponent from reacting quickly.


...how did the attackers find the tent in the darkness ?

   ••   The hickers' track had not had time to completely disappear because the attackers were following the track an hour after the hickers had passed.
Evening was falling, the darkness was not yet complete, and some things near or far remained visible or perceptible on the Kholat Syakhl slope.

On this small map below, the difference in altitude between two contours is 10 m.


On the map below, the difference in altitude between two contours is 20 m.


We can realize that on the afternoon of February 1 the hikers, after climbing from the edge of the forest in deep snow, probably only advanced 900 m on the Kholat Syakhl slope, almost in a straight line and rising 80 m in altitude.
It was a track that was not difficult to follow !

On the other hand, one of the worries of the strikers was not to be detected by the hikers. The attackers were not to advance too fast and too far until it was completely dark to make sure that the hikers did not notice them.
So while the hikers were working on setting up the tent as pictured here...


...I think that the attackers were waiting for the appropriate moment to launch the initial assault at a determined distance, for exemple 300 m. (This determined distance was dependent on the visibility. And the visibility itself depended on the wind-driven snow flurries).


... it would be difficult to hit the exact place of both temples twice

  ••   Once the victim is stunned and remains lying on the ground without moving much, the sense of eyesight is no longer necessary to continue hitting him/her in specific places. Remember everything that blind people are able to do using only the sense of touch.
Everyone can experience that they can locate close objects in absolute darkness, i.e. with an opaque blindfold covering their eyes.

Moreover, outside, the stars produce some light and, even if the moon is not up, and so you can distinguish the different parts of a human body lying on the snow, because the snow is very white.


...why didn't Lyubidina and "Zolotaryov" raise their hands ? [i.e. why don't they have fractures or hits on their arms in self defence]

   ••   6 hours after the attack on doroshenko and Krivoniskenko at the base of the cedar the four of the den made the mistake of thinking that the attackers had departed, i.e. that the danger had ceased.
The four of the den came out of hiding. They then found that Doroshenko and Krivonischenko were absolutely dead and they took several clothes. Then they did not stay on the alert, nor did they remain perfectly grouped. At that moment the darkness was less deep: the moon was up, the dawn of February 2 was near.

The attackers launched their fourth surprise offensive in conditions favourable to them. That is to say, they were able to knock out the 4 hikers with a first precise (and strong) decisive blow on the head (or neck in the case of Kolevatov). Then there was no more difficulty to continue to break some ribs, tear out eyes, cut a tongue................

So when the attackers left the scene they were sure that none of the 9 hikers would be able to survive for long.


Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.

June 26, 2020, 05:42:56 AM
Reply #31
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alecsandros


Sorry, I tried to reply but the forum ate what I wrote. I'll try another time for a round of follow up questions...

Best,

June 26, 2020, 07:06:40 AM
Reply #32
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alecsandros


Thanks for your informative reply, and for the video with presentation of usage of sticks for self-defense.

Reading your reply I found out just how little did Dyatlov Group move on Fev 1st: 900meters. That's very little. I wonder why ?
In any case, with a mere 900meters to travel, their potential attackers could have followed them with no problems...

Some further aspects that need scrutiny, IMHO:

- why didn't the members of Dyatlov Group use the axes at hand ? where they to heavily engaged (attacked) to be able to take anything for self defense ?

- there should have been footprints of the attackers, from the forest edge all the way to the tent. Do you think the wind erased those tracks by covering with snow ?
I find it peculiar that only the "8 or 9" footprints remained unobscured by snow.

- if the skiers were able to make a fire, and gather braches for burning, then for some time that means they were free from attack. Why do you think the assaillants left them near the cedar un-attacked ?

- if the attackers used sticks and clubs, how do you explain the lack of hit marks on Dyatlov, Doroshenko and Krivonishenko ? Could it be they were the least attacked ?

- again on the footprints: in theory, there should have been footprints of the attackers when they left the scene for good. Why aren't there any other footprints ?

- Further on the approach and withdrawal: I understand that the Dyatlov Group was following a mansi hunter trail. They actually encountered a hunter at one point.
Could the attackers escape unobserved by the Mansi people ? After all, they required several days of pursuit, and several days to come back to North2... Some multiple days onto which they could have been spotted.

Best Regards,

July 02, 2020, 10:52:39 PM
Reply #33
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Georgi




- why didn't the members of Dyatlov Group use the axes at hand ? where they to heavily engaged (attacked) to be able to take anything for self defense ?
Maybe the attacks themselves were conducted with blunt objects but that doesn’t discount ranged weapons being present, if there were two or three people with a firearm(hunting rifle) then bringing weapons out would be easy to prevent.

Quote
- there should have been footprints of the attackers, from the forest edge all the way to the tent. Do you think the wind erased those tracks by covering with snow ?
I find it peculiar that only the "8 or 9" footprints remained unobscured by snow.
There are ways to break your tracks, especially if the people were using ski/snow shoe, they had the advantage of daylight the next day to go back and cover their tracks, wind, snow and time took care of what they missed. When the search party first came they wouldn’t have been interested in any anomalies once they found the tracks, they called back up and there were one or two dozen people searching the area which means by the time they found the first bodies and started trying to gather evidence everything was contaminated beyond salvation.

Quote
- if the skiers were able to make a fire, and gather braches for burning, then for some time that means they were free from attack. Why do you think the assaillants left them near the cedar un-attacked ?
They left them to die of the elements, they left the hikers with just enough resources to give them hope but not enough in their estimate to allow them to actually survive, once they were proven wrong they went to finish the job.

Quote
- if the attackers used sticks and clubs, how do you explain the lack of hit marks on Dyatlov, Doroshenko and Krivonishenko ? Could it be they were the least attacked ?
Likely at the tent there was a scuffle, four hikers were involved in the fight that they ultimately lost, they were ordered to march to the treeline with the expectation they will die there, but some of them survived and forced the attackers to go and finish the job. By the time they got there the two men under the tree were already dead as was likely Slobodin and maybe Zinaida. By the time the attackers went to finish the job it is possible that the only people left alive were the once in the Ravine, everyone else was dead or very close to death at that point for them to bother.

Quote
- again on the footprints: in theory, there should have been footprints of the attackers when they left the scene for good. Why aren't there any other footprints ?
They had daylight, and they had branches to break up their trail, with time, snow and the wind there would be very little to indicate someone was there even if someone was looking when the searchers got there. Keep in mind a group of attackers would have had a day or two to cover their tracks and then get out of there as fast as they can to put distance between themselves and the hikers.

Quote
- Further on the approach and withdrawal: I understand that the Dyatlov Group was following a mansi hunter trail. They actually encountered a hunter at one point.
Could the attackers escape unobserved by the Mansi people ? After all, they required several days of pursuit, and several days to come back to North2... Some multiple days onto which they could have been spotted.
It’s a big place, by the time they ran into a hunter they could have been 10-20km away from the dead hikers, harder to connect someone to a murder when you don’t know it has happened yet and they are many km away from the crime scene and at least 3-4 weeks before anyone interviews the hunters. There is also another option, either the attackers were that good or they were scary enough to keep the Mansi hunters from talking even if they spotted them especially when the hunters in question figure out that they might have killed 9 people in cold blood.

July 04, 2020, 04:01:07 PM
Reply #34
Online

Jean Daniel Reuss



...........Some further aspects that need scrutiny, IMHO:...............See Reply #31
 
.................alecsandros-like subjects and questions.....- see Reply #32..............

Thank you for your thoughtful queries that help me improve my hypothesis N°2 (which has the advantage of being able to provide a plausible explanation for all of the events that are currently on display at the site developed by Teddy)


how little did Dyatlov Group move on Fev 1st: 900meters. That's very little. I wonder why ?

   ••• This question had already been asked by Louisette in two topics (with the same name).  See :
Louisette      :  General Discussion >  Strange slow progression after (labaz) = November 11, 2019, 05:53:22 AM  (0 reply)
Louisette      :  General Discussion >  Strange slow progression after (labaz) = November 13, 2019, 06:11:47 PM (2 reply)

     

Indeed, on 1 February the hikers moved 2.5 km (not 4 km) horizontally and climbed 300m in altitude.
 Look at :   November 30, 2019, 09:25:52 AM, my Reply #1

No wonder, on soft snow, in cold and bad weather:
   a) On the morning of February 1st the hikers spent 4 hours sorting the material out of the rucksacks and building their own labaz (cache).
"...In the storage were nineteen items of food with a total weight of 55 kg. Also found were some medical supplies and Dyatlov's warm outer boots, plus one pair of spare ski boots, a mandolin, a set of batteries and a lamp, and an extra set of skis. The storage depot was found 500 meters below the top edge of the forest, in the upper sources of Auspiya river."
   b) A rate of ascent of 100 meters in altitude is normal, so 3 hours of travel.
   c) Construction of the platform with a protective snow wall, anchoring to withstand the wind and erection of the tent: 2 hours minimum.

The hikers were very busy all day long on February 1st (without suspecting the attack they were going to suffer next).

         
why didn't the members of Dyatlov Group use the axes at hand ?

   •••  Because the surprise was total. The hikers did not immediately understand that the people who reached their tents at nightfall were not lost peaceful wanderers. On the contrary, they were what I call attackers, although in all honesty they were determined and ruthless murderers.

In 1959 the official statements of the government authorities looked like overly optimistic propaganda.
The Patriotic war is over.  The excessive Stalin is replaced by the righteous Khrushchev. There is no more danger for honest citizens. Peace and security reign throughout the country. The Soviet Union is becoming a model for all the countries of the world. Our police are effective, so the criminals are all in jail.  Our country surpasses the USA in almost all  domains. Everyone is happy. ........

Besides, this security atmosphere was neither entirely true nor entirely false.
Thus, this was true in the UPI which is a great privileged school with students and professors necessarily selected.
This was no longer true in the suburbs of the big cities or in the small remote villages in Taiga.

In other words, Lev Gordo (Chairman of the board of the UPI sports club), Korolev, eller Vasiliy Korolyov, (Chairman of the Route Commission) and the other members: Novikova, Evgeniy Maslennikov, Stanislav Bogomolov were living under the illusion of widespread security throughout the country.

It is an example of the randomness of the war, which on a philosophical level can even illustrate the unpredictability of the human condition.

It would have taken only a few more seconds for the hikers to be able to hold an axe or the ice axe in one hand. And then the DPI could have been very different. The result could have been 3 ex-zeks dead with their skulls cracked open by an axe blow and 2 hikers slightly injured...


where they to heavily engaged (attacked) to be able to take anything for self defense ?

I will detail later the hurried and forced exit of the tent in total confusion, with 3 stages, according to my hypothesis N°2.
  1) Introduction by surprise inside the tent of an Improvised Suffocating Device releasing SO². Probably 1 kg of a mixture of potassium nitrate and sulphur powder: 2.KNO³ + 4.S --> 3.SO² + N² + K²S  =>> absolute necessity to exit from the tent in less than 2 minutes without seeing anything because the eyes are bulging.
  2) The classic war trick.  By shouting very loudly the gases are arriving, the gas is coming everywhere on the slope. Let us all flee to the forest => illusion during 5 minutes.
  3) Then jostling and first light hits with the sticks  => the hikers still continue to go down towards the cedar for a few minutes.

Once they got out of the tent, it was too late. All they had available were their bare fists to defend themselves. The athletic hikers struck with strength and bravery, but were overwhelmed in the end by the attackers armed with heavy clubs (probably made of birch wood) who were able to keep the advantage of the initiative.



there should have been footprints of the attackers,........... Do you think the wind erased those tracks by covering with snow ?

   ••• Between 2 February and the arrival of the rescuers on 26 February the wind had had time to blow and cover with snow the corpses and almost all the footprints (according to the hazards of Fluid Mechanics applied to cold air).
   

I find it peculiar that only the "8 or 9" footprints remained unobscured by snow.

   ••• It is not surprising that some rare footprints remain for a long time and that other footprints, on the contrary, are completely erased and covered by the snow.
See also :

Teddy  :   General Discussion / Experiment with raised tracks  -   April 11, 2020, 12:03:49 AM »



the skiers were able to make a fire... then for some time that means they were free from attack.

Why do you think the assaillants left them near the cedar un-attacked ?

Here are the main lines of the description of the night of February 1 to 2, 1959 according to my hypothesis N°2.
To facilitate the reading I have added precisions and details which are probable but imaginary, therefore without importance for the general comprehension.

  First of all here are 2 observations:
1°)
The attackers had long been mentally prepared for this deadly fight and had the advantage of initiative.
The attackers had adopted a skilful and powerful tactic: a succession of surprise offensives followed by temporary retreats.
The attackers were properly dressed and suffered little or no pain from the cold, unlike the hikers who were slowed down by the cold.
The attackers had good shoes (or boots) and could move in total darkness faster (or less slowly) than hikers over uneven terrain covered with snow and rocks.
 
2°)
As Per Inge Oestmoen pointed out
To kill, it is sufficient to first stun the victim with a blow (preferably) on the head. Then, if no one comes to warm or rescue the unconscious victim, he or she will finally freeze to death, more or less slowly.

   INITIAL ATTACK on February 1, 1959
8.00 pm Surprise introduction inside the tent of an Improvised Suffocating Device that emits SO² gas
8.02 pm leaving the tent by the nine suffocating hikers.
8.03 pm the attackers scream (but this is a sneaky war trick): the asphyxiating gases are arriving let us all flee quickly to the nearby forest.
The attackers jostle the hikers a bit to encourage them to go down the slope towards the forest.

8.13 pm Kolmogorova begins to think that the attackers are completely fooling the hikers, who will soon freeze to death if they don't get back to the tent quickly.
 

FIRST OFFENSIVE
8.17 pm Kolmogorova is knocked out, (although not fatally wounded), 950 m from the tent (and will never get up again).
8.19 pm Slobodin is knocked out 1050 m from the tent (and will never get up again).
8.20 pm The attackers stop going down because they are being exhausted by the punches they have received.
     The other 7 hikers continue walking to reach the forest which is close by and where the (icy) wind does not blow.
  End of the first offensive


8.40 pm At the foot of the cedar the 7 hikers who are still standing are concerting to each other and do not venture to go back up to the tent immediately.
       Dyatlov, Doroshenko and Krivonoschenko decide that it is first necessary to light a fire so as not to freeze to death.
       Tibo, Kolevatov and Zolotaryov, because they are more politically aware, prefer to be less visible and less noticeable. They also fear that Dubinina has talked too much (about Stalin...) at Vizhay and therefore that Dubinina is in danger.
9.10 pm The fire is lit while the 4 from the den go into hiding a little further away.
11.10 pm Dyatlov decides to cautiously go back up to the tent hoping not to be spotted (because the wind is strong), to find out what happened to Kolmogorova and Slobodin.

SECOND OFFENSIVE
11.15 pm Dyatlov is detected by attackers 300 m from the cedar tree
11.20 pm Dyatlov is knocked out.
11.25 pm Dyatlov's ankles are tied to make sure he is completely neutralized.
 End of the second offensive

THIRD OFFENSIVE
11.35 pm Doroshenko is stunned alone, as Krinonishenko has climbed on the cedar to try to see Dyatlov (who is also unconscious and immobilized by ankle ties 300 m from the cedar).
11.40 pm Krinonishenko is pulled down of the cedar. The attackers begin to torture Krinonishenko by placing one of his leg in the fire to make him tell where the four of the den are hidden.
12.10 pm Krinonishenko who did not speak is left at the foot of the cedar completely unconscious. The attackers go back up to the tent to rest and wait patiently for further events...
 End of the third offensive

FOURTH OFFENSIVE, february 2, 1959
5.10 am the four from the den come out of the den and find Doroshenko and Krinonishenko dead
5.30 am The attackers who had gone down to watch the cedar area (because the moon was up at the time) stunned one by one the 4 hikers who had survived, but who had not remained strictly grouped together.
5.40 am End of the confusing and heated fighting between the cedar and the den. To symbolically celebrate their victory and to free themselves from intense nervous tension, the attackers hit the corpses lying on the ground, breaking a few bones (skulls and ribs), tearing out a few eyes and cutting out the tongue of the Stalinist Dubinina with a small knife so that, even though she is dead, she will no longer be able to symbolically spout his infamous propaganda...
6.20 The work is finished, the 4 corpses are slid into the small depression formed by the snow-covered ravine.
 End of the fourth offensive and victory of the attackers


how do you explain the lack of hit marks on Dyatlov, Doroshenko and Krivonishenko ?
 

   •••   But there are some very visible marks of blows on the bodies: ("...bruise...bruises...pink and brown-red bruise...brusing abrasions...dark red abrasions....brown-red abrasions.....abrasion in pale red color..........brown red graze....hemorrhages......etc")
Look at the autopsy reports that can be accessed from the page 
     


  and also look at :

 In the case of the four of the den the statements were difficult to establish because the bodies were rotten and it was instead recorded:
"lack of soft tissues ....missing soft tissues..."


in theory, there should have been footprints of the attackers when they left the scene for good. Why aren't there any other footprints ?

   ••• It is really a matter of randomness in the sense that these are unpredictable phenomena in practice. Fluid Mechanics can explain theoretically that air currents were and are unpredictable under the DPI conditions.

The wind blows strongly and for a long time on an irregular slope. Some traces remain, others become harder and more visible and most of the traces disappear completely.

Note that the attackers did not try to dissimulate the footprints or battle tracks. The attackers were right to know that it was completely useless as the rescuers would not arrive for several days.

Look also at :

Teddy   Experiment with raised tracks      April 11, 2020, 12:03:49 AM


the Dyatlov Group was following a mansi hunter trail.


   ••• Dyatlov's group diary   , 29.1.59
 "...We walked along a Mansi trail. ..."
 Kolmogorova diary     ,  29.1.59  :
"...Along the Auspiya Mansi have passed. A trail is visible, grooves, a path is visible. We often see Mansi signs on the trail. I wonder what they write about? Now the Mansi trail goes South..."
 Kolmogorova diary     ,  30.2.59  :
"...We go on Auspiya... Mansi trail ended. Pine forest. There was sun in the morning, now is cold (ayserm). All day long we walked along Auspiya. Will spend the night on a Mansi trail. Kolya didn't get to be a watchman so me and Rustik will stay on duty today. Burned mittens and Yurkin's second quilted jacket. He cursed a lot. Today, probably, we will build a storage....".

So the hikers followed one or two Mansi tracks in the snow for a few kilometers (because it is easier to move forward when the snow is already packed). But theses tracks, probably left a few days before by one or more Mansi hunters, did not suit them because this or these track(s) extended in the wrong direction, for instance to the south.


They actually encountered a hunter at one point.


   ••• The hikers encountered no one other than the silhouette that impressed the film on Tibo's camera. There are at least 4 explanations for photo N°17 :


  a) • It was Tibo himself who made a small staging using a time delay trigger (Tibo wanted to bring back from his vacation in the Ural Mountains a funny, spectacular picture....
See :

PJ: Murdered > Resistance goup maybe?    ---> June 03, 2020, 04:49:34 PM Reply #35
        "...it is human being and almost for sure it is Tibo..."
See also :


 b) •  He was a human being who was a bit mysterious because he disappeared immediately and just happened to be there.
 c) •  He was an attacker who was chasing the hikers following the trail left by the hikers. The attackers waited until the hikers had reached a bare slope because they feared that in a forest the hikers could hide behind the trees.
 d) •  It is not a human being, it is a kind of hypothetical great ape called Yeti. See the Yeti/Snowman board



Could the attackers escape unobserved by the Mansi people ?


   ••• The Mansi were few in number and their settlement or camp was located in the north, far from the Dyatlov Pass.
I think it is reasonable to assume that there were no Mansi in the area around February 1, 1959.


they required several days of pursuit, and several days to come back to North2


      •  The hikers progressed slowly because:
   The hikers often advanced through soft, virgin snow and searched for the right route, which slowed them down.
   The hikers carried rucksacks that were heavy.
   The hilkers were on their holidays and wanted to have fun and rest.
   The hilkers wanted to come back from their holidays in good condition to continue their studies, which was important to them.
      •  On the contrary, the attackers were much faster because :
   They were following tracks where the snow was already packed and they had no need to look for directions.
   The attackers carried light rucksacks (containing a birch wood bludgeon and some food).
   The attackers considered that their holy duty was to succeed at all costs in their mission to destroy and exterminate these 9 representatives of the Soviet communist oppression.

Below are my estimates for the travel times of the attackers (approximate estimates given as a rough guide)

9 hours to get from North-2 to the tent, because you have to go up in altitude.
6 hours to get from the tent to North-2, because there is a decrease in altitude (higher average speed of skiers) ,

I have two typical versions for the timing, but obviously there are possibly some variations.

 •• Hypothesis N°2-A - (attack settled in 2 days: luck favours the attackers).

 * February 1st = 7am::departure from North-2 >>> 4pm::arrival at 300 m from the hikers on the slope of Kholat Syakhl >>> 8pm::start of the "altercation" (in fact fight to the death)
 * February 2nd = 6am::end of the "altercation" >>> 7am::return to the tent and rest inside [during 6 hours] >>> 1pm::departure from the tent (before leaving the tent the attackers cut the canvas with a small knife) >>> 7pm:arrival at North-2

 •• Hypothesis N°2-B - (attack settled in 4 days: the attackers are slightly wounded but still valid).

 * January 31nd = 7am::Departure from North-2 >>> 3pm::Arrival in sight of the hikers (photo N°17??) >>> Night of bivouac (without tent) in the forest under the Dyatlov pass1  *  * February 1st = 2pm::start in pursuit of the hikers >>> 5pm arrival at 300 m from the platform under construction on the slope of the Kholat Syakhl >>> 8pm::start of the altercation(in fact fight to the death)
 * February 2nd = 6am::end of "the altercation" >>> 7am::back to the tent to rest inside for a longtime  because they are very tired and sore : during 27 hours]
 * February 3rd =10am::tent departure (before leaving the tent the attackers cut the canvas with a small knife) >>> 7pm:arrival at North-2 (attackers are moving slower )


Some multiple days onto which they could have been spotted.

   ••• The various police forces in the Soviet Union were sufficiently occupied with surveillance and collecting the information from indicators in cities and towns.
Away from the frontiers, there was very little surveillance of the immensity of the Siberian taiga (except perhaps in the event of a major escape from a Gulag camp in the area of interest).

Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.

July 05, 2020, 04:21:19 PM
Reply #35
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Quoting Jean Daniel Reuss. 

''The attackers stop going down because they are being exhausted by the punches they have received''.

This is just one of the apparent contradictions I have seen.  Jean, you suggest that the attackers are armed. By that I take it we are to believe that the attackers were fairly heavily armed or they wouldnt have decided to attack in the first place.  But then you suggest that the attackers become exhausted because of the fightback by the Dyatlov Group.  A Group who are barely dressed and ill equipped for the outside freezing temperatures and who are carrying no weapons. That just doesnt make sense.
DB

July 06, 2020, 10:48:15 AM
Reply #36
Online

Jean Daniel Reuss


Answer  to above     Reply #35

Thank you very much for your judicious questions which will allow me to modify my hypothesis N°2 to improve it.
But I agree with you: there is no irrefutable proof.
When a better explanation of DPI will appear, only then will I start my hypothesis N°3.

The attackers stop going down....

   ....For several reasons:
 • Part of the attackers' tactics was to scatter the hikers so they could fight, defeat and kill them one by one if possible.
Thus, after leaving the tent in groups, the hikers were skillfully forced, incited by blows, to move away from each other.
After stunning Slobobin, (about 1050 m away from the tent to fix the ideas), which kept several attackers engaged for several minutes, the attackers
could no longer see the hikers
: a few small trees and complete darkness.

 • Handling a heavy blunt object to hit hard is physically tiring.

 • Moving quickly in all directions in the dark on sloping ground covered with snow and rocks is physically tiring.

 • Running, jumping to dodge a counterattack, stumbling, getting up, falling, getting up again is physically exhausting.

 • Bruising and pain reduce performance.

 • The mental strain and nervous fatigue in this kind of merciless combat is tremendous.

 • After 20 - 40 minutes of intense and violent hand-to-hand combat the attackers as well as the hikers were exhausted and unable to continue fighting.
The hikers managed to regroup at the foot of the cedar tree (without knowing what had happened to the 2 absentees: Kolmogorova and Slobodin).
Attackers went back up the slope to the tent - It is possible that a lamp was left by the attackers near the tent to help locate it

 • Both attackers and hikers knew, or intuitively perceived, that it is futile to continue disorderly fighting with uncertain outcomes. It is preferable to temporarily suspend action in order to evaluate the situation, regroup one's forces, and consider a possibly more organized attack at a later moment.


were fairly heavily armed.

 • I have no sufficient knowledge of the English language and I can not appreciate te meaning the expression "fairly heavily armed".

 • I do not know if a piece of wood can be called a heavy weapon.

 • You should ask Per Inge Oestmoen who is an expert in jiu jitsu what he thinks about it!

 • It seems to me that the advantage of a blunt object, 1m to 1.5m in length, is that it is longer than an arm and so one can hope to keep the opponent at a sufficient distance so that he cannot grab you.

 • Another advantage of a birch wood blunt object is that it is free, easy to carve as there are many birch trees of adequate dimensions in the taiga around Vizhay.

 • According to my hypothesis N°2 the superiority of the attackers was not great because it took 10 hours (1 February, 8pm <--> 2 February, 6am) for the attackers to defeat the hickers (The superiority of the attackers came rather from surprise, tactics, clothing...).


fightback by the Dyatlov Group...barely dressed and ill equipped...

See
General Discussion > what resistance to freezing cold, can man hold it without clothes?
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=646.0

  1) - During the first hour (8 am - 9 am) the hikers were probably not too slowed down by the cold as they all wore some clothes.
 - Being admitted that certain clothes initially worn by Doroshenko and Krivonischenko were later used by the 4 of the den.
 Teddy = Injuries, clothing and belongings to Dyatlov group
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=620.0

  2) - Hikers were at risk of frostbite on their feet, which does not detract too much from performance, as many climbers have had their feet frozen with subsequent amputation without noticing it immediately.
In fact, it seems that Dyatlov asked all of his comrades every evening to look at their feet to make sure that there was not a change in colour indicating the beginning of frostbite, which was a wise precaution demonstrating Dyatlov's skill.

  3) - Finally the hickers were nine in good physical condition, but I do not know how many the attackers were.
In a video in Russian - which I understood almost nothing despite the French subtitles -  there is, it seems to me, an allusion to only 3 attackers.


Two additional arguments to point out that the attackers did not have firearms

   1/ •••
Autopsy reports on the fist wounds of several hikers suggest that they and Kolmogorova defended themselves by striking.

Imagine that you threaten a person with a loaded gun and order him or her to "go down the slope".
But at that moment the person threatened, instead of obeying you, rushes at you and punches you in the face with big blows.
If at that moment you do not pull the trigger, it is because you are an very exceptional human being !!!

   2/ •••
   Vietnamka =  Murder Indead   ---> January 23, 2019, 10:40:55 PM   :  Reply #61
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=110.msg3058#msg3058

 the simplest answer is  - attackers didnt have fire weapons
Gun circulation was strictly controlled in the USSR and satellite countries,
...........  we can exclude some categories of people attacker did not belong to :
1) solders (army, KGB).
2) hunters  ( hunters)  -  and each hunting weapon is listed and its owner is registered.
3) organized criminal groups or bandits   - because nothing important was stolen from the hikers who moreover were not rich.
Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.

July 07, 2020, 02:02:20 PM
Reply #37
Offline

RidgeWatcher


Mr. Reuss, Thank you for your very though out post. It makes much more sense to me now how the attack/attacks could have been carried out. I do believe that Dubinina said to much and her diary entries revealed this knowledge, unconsciously, with her uncustomary angst and anxiety. She was young, strong and brave but opinionated at age 21.

The Dalai Lama: A smart person knows what to say. A wise person knows whether to say it or not.

July 12, 2020, 03:45:51 PM
Reply #38
Online

Jean Daniel Reuss


............. I do believe that Dubinina said to much and her diary entries revealed this knowledge, unconsciously, with her uncustomary angst and anxiety. She was young, strong and brave but opinionated at age 21.
The Dalai Lama: A smart person knows what to say. A wise person knows whether to say it or not.

     You have discovered an excellent sentence of a psychological nature that applies well to the situation of hikers arriving unexpectedly at Vizhay in an environment that was not friendly and perhaps even hostile.
However, to be equitable it should be pointed out that the Dalai Lama had much more time and luck (than Dubinina) to benefit from conditions favourable to the acquisition of great wisdom.

Besides, Dubinina was not wrong to express some discontent because the hikers had not been very welcoming in Vizhay :

            See Kandr and Lechtenfeld :


   • Obligation to go to a so-called hotel with 4 beds, (or even one according to another source), for 10 people .
   • In a room where the window could not be closed, while the outside temperature was -17°C.
   • While the firewood, which had been provided to the hikers to make the fire and cook, had been deliberately made wet.

According to Aleks Kandr a more important factor could have been that Dyatlov did not realize that enemies of the Soviet regime could exist among the inhabitants of Vizhay.

Indeed : " Igor Dyatlov has a travel certificate and a trade union voucher, in which he addressed the leaders of Soviet, party and public organizations, "to render all possible assistance" in providing the Dyatlov group of hikers campaign XXI Congress of the CPSU, the opening of which was scheduled for January 28, 1959.e from the leadership of the settlement-colony.

   Thus the hikers appeared as to be official representatives of the Soviet government in the eyes of some anti-communist people living in the Vizhay region.

I interpret Sabine Lechtenfeld's article by saying that Dubinina, with her great feminine intuition, was more or less consciously, affected by a deaf but violent hostility on the part of certain people (in Vizhay more than in Settlement 41, it seems).

 
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°


I began to study Aleks Kandr's hypothesis, which supposes that a commander in the Vizhay region hired three professional mercenary killers - presumably known criminals - thus ex-zeks freed, from 1953, by the decisions of Nikita Krushchev.

   But Aleks Kandr writes in Russian and I have great difficulty in translating and understanding him correctly.


What is certain is that the hypothesis expressed by Eduard Tumanov ("hikers took part in a fight, ... with outsiders") and in sum developed with some variants by Aleks Kandr, Per Inge Oestermoen, then myself (under the name of hypothesis N°2) has the merit of being able to explain everything with great ease.

   For example it seems then obvious that the tent was cut by the attackers who had rested inside (on the morning of February 2), after the successful massacre of the 9 hikers and before leaving quietly for Vizhay (following the traces left on the way).

   Taking into account the very damaged metacarpal phalangeal and inter-phalangeal joints of (1°) Kolmogorova,  (2°) Slobodin,  (3°) Dyatlov and  (4°) Krivonoschenko (who certainly had not struck in the void) it can be deduced that when the attackers came back they had suspicious bruises on their faces....
..............

           To be continued

Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.

July 12, 2020, 09:28:14 PM
Reply #39
Offline

RidgeWatcher


I am really enjoying your hypothesis. I do believe the attackers came from Vishay.

I also think it was "things said" by the Dyatlov Ski Tourists that produced anger, hatred and not to mention a murderous rage. The control group from the University that skied west was left untouched, even though they would have been easier to track, follow and attack in a timelier manor. The attackers followed, silently the Dyatlov group.

I have asked this before on this forum: During the investigation inhabitants of Settlement 41 and 2nd Northern would have been questioned. Attackers could not have gone unnoticed while traveling to the Dyatlov Pass area, especially along the rivers, while traveling through Settlement 41 or 2nd Northern (if anyone was there) they would have been noticed, animals would have barked, cried and whined, even at night. Tracks and scents would have been left. There would have been witnesses. The Mansi hunters would be able to tell, especially, around their hunting areas if tracks or signs were from the Dyatlov group or the attacker group. I believe this part of the investigation was hidden from the public view.

What did Yuri Yudin see?

July 13, 2020, 09:25:43 AM
Reply #40
Online

Jean Daniel Reuss



..........................................
I also think it was "things said" by the Dyatlov Ski Tourists that produced anger, hatred and not to mention a murderous rage.
..........................................


The control group from the University that skied west was left untouched...

It is Blinov's group. I have not found much information on the Blinov Group. I have only learned that :

 • Blinov's group (which had 15 members ? ) stayed in Vizhay less time than Dyatlov's group.

 • That Blinov, as the leader of the group, did not possess, or did not exhibit :
         "a travel certificate and a trade union voucher, in which he addressed the leaders of Soviet, party and public organizations, "to render all possible assistance" in providing the Blinov group .... ", unlike Dyatlov.


The attackers followed, silently the Dyatlov group.

 • I also think the fresh tracks left by the hikers were deep and perfectly visible.
 • So the tracks were very easy to follow to the tent by day and by night. The attackers could not lose the track and were therefore sure to find the tent by continuing to ski until the end of the track.

 
Attackers could not have gone unnoticed while traveling to the Dyatlov Pass area...

        I tend to think that you misrepresent daily life in these faraway regions.

  a) - There is a low population density in the taiga, which (often) is not a forbidden zone. People can move around, under certain conditions, without being closely watched: Mansi hunters (with a valid authorization to carry a hunting rifle), Russian hunters (with a valid authorization to carry a hunting rifle), loggers, longshoremen, foresters, geologists, prospectors, cartographers, practicing soldiers, tourists and walkers...

Under normal circumstances, there is no reason to be particularly concerned about the passage of an individual or group.

If, for one reason or another, someone wanted to be undetected by the loggers of Settlement 41, all they had to do was to drive a few kilometers away from the settlement (because on skis you can go anywhere) taking into account the direction of the wind to be sure not to be felt by the dogs.

  b) - The usual work of the policemen, or KGB agents is done in heated offices with telephone, files, summons, interrogations, official reports...etc.
KGB agents cannot and will not waste their time skiing in the Taiga.


I believe this part of the investigation was hidden from the public view.

See :
https://dyatlovpass.com/korotaev

       Kirilenko summoned Korotaev to the investigator's office and unequivocally explained :

"Khrushchev is notified that the students froze to death and the case must be closed."

According to my hypothesis N°2, the KGB quickly understood that the suspicions had to be focused, not on the Mansis, but on the ex-Zeks, which then directly interested Khrushchev.

Indeed, part of the internal social difficulties of the USSR between 1953 and 1964 were due to the very poor organisation of the mass release of prisoners from the Gulag camps, releases which had been wanted and imposed by Khrushchev himself.

Khrushchev's close collaborators were given instructions that could look like this:

   - Obviously these were not words that were really uttered, but only to give a rudimentary idea of the situation. -

Khrushchev told his collaborators: " You can see that I have a lot of work and worries with President Einsenhower, Gomulka in Poland, Janos Kadar in Hungary, the Chechens, the Chinese...and many other very important and challenging problems."
     So please get out of my way so that I can get rid of this little matter as quickly as possible.

Which was done as early as May 28, 1959...


What did Yuri Yudin see ?

Nothing important for researchers. He left his 9 friends at North-2 on January 28, 1959 when everything was fine, except for his own sciatica. Then he saw the coffins of his 9 dead friends again and he was very sad.

Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.

July 14, 2020, 10:17:02 PM
Reply #41
Offline

RidgeWatcher


Khrushchev told his collaborators: " You can see that I have a lot of work and worries with President Einsenhower, Gomulka in Poland, Janos Kadar in Hungary, the Chechens, the Chinese...and many other very important and challenging problems. So please get out of my way so that I can get rid of this little matter as quickly as possible.

Again, Thank you for your Hypothesis #2. I can see this happening with surmounting problems at the time that all needed to be resolved.

So the problem that was, became the problem that was no longer, so problem solved and no longer is there a problem.

So somewhere around Vishay in early 1959 there lived a sociopath ex-Zek with equally dangerous friends. This sociopath even though angered into a rage by a piece of paper and a young person's loose tongue in January 1959 had to have a previous pattern of severe violence and even murder. Wouldn't the local police force and intelligence be able to narrow this down easily? Do you think the murderer and his friends might have been eliminated by the powers that be in that area? Isn't this what Krushchev would want to know, in the end?

July 16, 2020, 06:38:59 PM
Reply #42
Offline

Georgi


I am really enjoying your hypothesis. I do believe the attackers came from Vishay.

I also think it was "things said" by the Dyatlov Ski Tourists that produced anger, hatred and not to mention a murderous rage. The control group from the University that skied west was left untouched, even though they would have been easier to track, follow and attack in a timelier manor. The attackers followed, silently the Dyatlov group.

I have asked this before on this forum: During the investigation inhabitants of Settlement 41 and 2nd Northern would have been questioned. Attackers could not have gone unnoticed while traveling to the Dyatlov Pass area, especially along the rivers, while traveling through Settlement 41 or 2nd Northern (if anyone was there) they would have been noticed, animals would have barked, cried and whined, even at night. Tracks and scents would have been left. There would have been witnesses. The Mansi hunters would be able to tell, especially, around their hunting areas if tracks or signs were from the Dyatlov group or the attacker group. I believe this part of the investigation was hidden from the public view.

What did Yuri Yudin see?

Really depends on the motive, if they were followed from the beginning there would be different circumstances and more chances of witnesses vs if they were followed from mid point of the journey because the hikers were in a confrontation or witnessed something they shouldn't have. As for Mansi witnesses? If the killers were from one organization or another whether on official business or not the Mansi hunters would not talk out of fear of retaliation whether from the individuals or the government at large. If they start pointing fingers at someone connected to the government it would have been all too easy for the government to find them guilty for the deaths of the hikers and deal with them in any number of unpleasant ways. In their place I would be quiet.

July 16, 2020, 06:44:55 PM
Reply #43
Offline

Georgi




So the problem that was, became the problem that was no longer, so problem solved and no longer is there a problem.

So somewhere around Vishay in early 1959 there lived a sociopath ex-Zek with equally dangerous friends. This sociopath even though angered into a rage by a piece of paper and a young person's loose tongue in January 1959 had to have a previous pattern of severe violence and even murder. Wouldn't the local police force and intelligence be able to narrow this down easily? Do you think the murderer and his friends might have been eliminated by the powers that be in that area? Isn't this what Krushchev would want to know, in the end?

If that was who committed the crime, it would make sense, the soviet authorities shut down the are for tourists for a couple of years, they send in some of their Special Forces to hunt down the killers and kill them, no court, no press, no fanfare. Once killed bury them in an unmarked grave and 60 years later even if dug up there would be no connection between the Dyatlov group and the unidentified dead people in a grave out in the middle of nowhere.

July 24, 2020, 02:02:43 PM
Reply #44
Online

Jean Daniel Reuss




          Part 1

     Three answers in : Theories Discussion -> Altercation on the pass -> Altercation on the pass

  •••  RidgeWatcher   : July 14, 2020, 10:17:02 PM    Reply #41 
"...So somewhere around Vishay in early 1959 there lived a sociopath .... with equally dangerous friends....had to have a previous pattern of severe violence and even murder. Wouldn't the local police force and intelligence be able to narrow this down easily? Do you think the murderer and his friends might have been eliminated by the powers that be in that area ?..."
                             See further in Part 2 where I explain that I now consider 2 related hypotheses.

 • Hypothesis N°2 ===> The ex-zeks anti communists were careful not to be noticed and to remain in the strict legality to be able to possibly launch a surprise action if it appeared an opportune moment.
 • Hypothesis N°2-bis ===> On the contrary, the Stalinist notables opposed to Khrushchev's reforms, like some leaders in the Gulag, were like powerful lords in their distant oblast and they taunted the central power of Moscow.

  •••    Georgi  : July 16, 2020, 06:38:59 PM    Reply #42
" As for Mansi witnesses ? If the killers were from one organization or another whether on official business or not the Mansi hunters would not talk out of fear of retaliation whether from the individuals or the government at large. If they start pointing fingers at someone connected to the government it would have been all too easy for the government to find them guilty for the deaths of the hikers and deal with them in any number of unpleasant ways. In their place I would be quiet."
                Yes ! That is well said !
 A Mansi hunter or reindeer herder must have been thinking: I will let the Russians sort out their business among themselves. That is none of my business. I did not see anything, I did not hear anything, and I am not going to get too inquisive.

  •••    Georgi :   July 16, 2020, 06:44:55 PM    Reply #43
       "...to hunt down the killers and kill them, no court, no press, no fanfare...."
The KGB has certainly identified the killers but we do not know when: (a) After February 6, 1959 (questionable date on a sheet)? - (b)After 17 March 1959(Korotaev is fired)?  - (c) After 8 May 1959(the last 4 bodies are found)? - (d)-After May 28, 1959(case closed)? - (e)-Long after ?
And then arrest - extensive interrogations - execution... The bodies of the murderers could even be sent to a crematorium and reduced to ashes so that no trace remains.

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

                Part 2

  •••  Aleks Kandr has written in Russian (in Russian!: unluckily for me) a complete and plausible reconstitution of the DPI. I am convinced that there is a lot of truth in Aleks Kandr's hypotheses and I "adopt" them partially under the name of Hypothesis N°2-bis
       
Quote

In a nutshell, I now consider 2 neighbouring hypotheses, the main difference between the two is the "WHO". That is to say that the attackers were :
 • For:  Hypothesis N°2 ====> A few foreign ex-zeks and patriots from countries suffering from Soviet oppression who had not yet been allowed (or able) to leave the Vizhay region.
 • For:  Hypothesis N°2-bis ====> A few Stalinist Russians opposed to the reforms which had become more pronounced since the XXth (1956) Congress of the Communist Party in 1956 who lived in the Vizhay region.
 


  •••  A little more explanation on "WHO", "WHY", "HOW", here:
Quote
Theories Discussion  -> Murdered -> Murder Indead
   Re: Murder Indead July 22, 2020, 03:27:13 PM      Reply #141
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=110.msg10194#msg10194
   My answer to : Morski  If we go for the "must be a murder" theory, few of the main questions I see reasonable are :
       (---> Questionss equivalent to  "WHO",  "WHY", "HOW")


  •••  Nobody had any premonition, but there was however a clue for the "WHY", read here :   
Personne n'a eu de prémonition, mais il y a eu quand même un indice pour le "WHY", lire ici :   
Quote
    Victims and Case Files -> Victims -> Lyudmila Dubinina -> Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death       July 20, 2020, 03:43:19 PM      Reply #17
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.msg10160#msg10160
   My answers to : Teddy, Sabine Lechtenfeld, BottleBrunette


   •••  Some useful clues to reconstruct the timeline of the altercation:
Quote
   Theories Discussion -> General Discussion -> Clothes
Vietnamka  March 26, 2019, 09:35:48 AM
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=396.msg4583#msg4583

Vietnamka explains his reasoning on the clothes found on the 9 corpses.

I infer from it
(solid hypothesis) that 1°:Kolmogorova, 2°:Slobodin, 3°:Dyatlov were knocked out (thus killed) while going down the slope of Kholat Syakhl.
(Vietnamka writes only : "Did they die first ? While descending ?")
In other words, 20 minutes after leaving the tent, Kolmogorova, Slobodin and Dyatlov were already lying inanimate in the snow and would soon freeze to death.

But then the 3 attackers or killers did not know where the other 6 hikers who had disappeared in the dark were.
Then the 3 attackers climbed back up the slope and rested in the tent.

 Later, around midnight, fire under the cedar tree allowed the attackers to find Doroshenko and Krivonischenko. To find out where the other 4 hikers were hiding, the attackers tortured Krivonischenko who did not speak and did not scream.

Around 6 am the darkness being less deep, the attackers located the 4 of the den, attacked them and defeated them. To celebrate their victory, the attackers cut out some body parts from the defeated ones.
   Vietnamka thinks that "Kolevatov dies after the two Juris, but clearly before Tibo and Zolotaryov."

 
  •••   It is alecsandros that raises the most important and difficult question which is the hurried exit from the tent. 
Quote
      Theories Discussion -> Altercation on the pass -> Altercation on the pass
alecsandros   June 26, 2020, 07:06:40 AM      Reply #32
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.msg9765#msg9765
 "why did not the members of Dyatlov Group use the axes at hand ? where they to heavily engaged (attacked) to be able to take anything for self defense ?"
 
                  Be patient it will be for soon...

   
Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.

July 26, 2020, 05:34:30 PM
Reply #45
Offline

RidgeWatcher


Mr. Reuss, I appreciate your post and it could all be logically possible. My one question would be the KSD group, weren't there some clothing exchanged on them? Which means they possibly did make it to the Cedar tree with the entire group in general.

July 27, 2020, 01:31:34 AM
Reply #46
Offline

sparrow


I think the hikers  found on the slope were wearing their own clothes and maybe some of Yudin's.  Those found in the creek seem to be wearing Lyuda's George"s and Yuri"s clothes (besides their own).  From what I have been able to ascertain, so far, is that a number of (if not all) the clothes found laying about were Lyuda"s. There was one pair of pants still  in the tent.  Zina"s top two pairs of pants were undone as if someone had been trying to remove them, maybe for the purpose of wearing them also in an attempt to stay warm.

August 09, 2020, 02:34:25 PM
Reply #47
Online

Jean Daniel Reuss



---> Reply #45
..... My one question would be the KSD group, weren't there some clothing exchanged on them? Which means they possibly did make it to the Cedar tree with the entire group in general.   

  ---> Reply #46
....  Those found in the creek seem to be wearing Lyuda's George"s and Yuri"s clothes (besides their own).  From what I have been able to ascertain, so far, is that a number of (if not all) the clothes found laying about were Lyuda"s. There was one pair of pants still  in the tent..............

 Since January 28th the clothes could be exchanged between the 9 hikers without Yuri Yudin or anyone else knowing.
    Moreover WAB explained that the quilted jackets had the disadvantage of being very combustible and being sometimes accidentally destroyed by fire.
    Due to the fact that Krivonischenko's quilted jacket had burned the hikers certainly made one or more new shares of the clothes available in the group.
But it seems impossible to know at what times or what moment the clothing sharing took place.
                               
 Rustem Slobodin put on the burnt quilted jacket that belonged to Yuri Krivonischenko and posed for the photo.

   

You can also read this post from WAB which gives us more detailed explanations.

WAB : General Discussion / Re: What's The Worst Thing They Could Do?  =>  on: May 08, 2018, 04:06:25 PM  --->   Reply #3
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=172.msg744#msg744

" It is absolutely everyday occurence on similar travel at that time - 60 years ago.
Sitting at a fire, it is difficult to follow when the small piece of coal will get on such jacket which "TELOGREIKA (in Russan) - Padded jacket" is called. It is from words "to heat a body" (to keep heat more precisely).
          The padded jacket consists of a cotton cloth outside and from within, and its interiors consist of cotton cotton wool. When the piece of coal will get to it, it starts to smoulder. To extinguish it it is impossible. It is possible to remove only a piece of cotton wool which smoulder. But it be removed should only completely.
............................
That is my old padded jacket where the small piece of coal has got, but was possible to find at once this place and to remove a smoulder piece.
 My piece of coal has got in front, therefore it was possible to find at once. If it gets behind (Rustem could sit a back to a fire) it would be found out very much late.
In a padded jacket it is visible nothing, therefore to find place which burns is almost impossible. It is especially difficult, if long it is not possible to define that already there is a process to smoulder. Therefore such padded jackets burn out very big pieces. "


 
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°


The action of attackers (we can also say: murderers, terrorists...) allows us to explain simply the totality of the questions that have arisen concerning the "HOW ?" of the DPI.
 
For example: After resting inside the intact tent on February 2, the attackers slightly damaged the tent, which had become useless to them, before setting off again towards North-2, following the trail left by the hikers from North-2.

Putting myself in this topic of the " altercation ", I am rather in favour of a scenario in which the 3 hikers found dead on the slope (Kolmogorova, Slobodin, Dyatlov) were knocked out on the way down.

Under this hypothesis, there would have been only 6 hikers who could have reached the cedar (and later separated in : 2 to take care of the fire - 4 to hide in the Den).

My argument is that if, on the contrary, the 9 hikers had been able to meet alive at the bottom of the cedar, then they would have separated as little as possible. That is to say that in the case of an attempt to go back up to the tent all those who were physically able to do so would have remained strictly grouped to fight or ... die together.
(Leaving or "abandoning" eventual or possible injured people near the fire or in the Den) .

During the legendary sword fighting of the Horaces and the Curiaces, the 3 Curiaces made the mistake of separating, which allowed the single Horace, who was fleeing from them, to defeat them one after the other.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horatii_and_Curiati

Naturally there is no irrefutable evidence on all those unimportant details about the hand-to-hand fightings that took place on the night of 1 to 2 February 1959.

Have a look for example:

 • Clacon :  General Discussion / Order of deaths
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=416.0

 • Teddy  :  General Discussion / Why did Rustem Slobodin die first?
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=96.0

 • Marchesk  :  General Discussion / Timing of leaving the tent and deaths based on the watch evidence, ( August 07, 2020 )
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=697.0

 • And also my recent little summary ( August 04, 2020 )
In topic : The Stove / Re: Why they didn't unpack and light the stove? --> Reply #6
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=691.msg10392#msg10392
  Part 3.   and  Part 4.


For me, the human cause of DPI being clearly established,  there are many more interesting questions waiting for us now : WHO ? and   WHY ?

    ••   Local Russian stalinist oligarchs opposed to the khrushchev thaw  ?  (Aleks Kandr)
    ••   Ex-zeks, under house arrest, and patriots from satellite countries suffering from Soviet oppression ?
    ••   ...........................???
   
Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.

August 10, 2020, 01:47:21 AM
Reply #48
Offline

sparrow


In reading Zina's diary, date 29.1.59, "Burned mittens and Yurkin's second quilted jacket."  Zina was quite upset with Yuri.  He had apparently broke off his relationship with her and she was jealous of the other girls he was spending time with (see the section on this forum titled "Zina's Letters"). I don't know about in the Russian language, but in English when you make a statement like the one above, the "I" is usually understood.

August 10, 2020, 02:51:13 AM
Reply #49
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sparrow


I do believe there may have been some kind of altercation among some of the hikers based on some of their injuries.  And something else that bothers me a lot is that if you look at the clothes being worn by the hikers at their death, Lyuda either went down to the ravine wearing only a tee shirt, shirt, one sweater and only tights (no pants at all) and she had to strip George of his ruined pants and maybe a sweater or she went down to the ravine with her share of clothes and she was either asked to give up some or she was forced to give them up.  In the first case it seems odd that three guys fairly well dressed (maybe even wearing some of her clothes) would not share some with her and the second case speaks for its self.  So, please, if someone can explain this, do.

August 13, 2020, 10:03:51 PM
Reply #50
Offline

Georgi


  Zina"s top two pairs of pants were undone as if someone had been trying to remove them, maybe for the purpose of wearing them also in an attempt to stay warm.
She was significantly far away from the rest of the hikers that anyone of them trying to remove her clothing is unlikely.

August 21, 2020, 04:06:15 PM
Reply #51
Online

Jean Daniel Reuss



   Reply #48
In reading Zina's diary, date 29.1.59, "Burned mittens and Yurkin's second quilted jacket."  Zina was quite upset with Yuri. ........... I don't know about in the Russian language, but in English when you make a statement like the one above, the "I" is usually understood.

Are you saying that Kolmogorova deliberately destroyed some very useful warm clothes ?
It is unlikely because it does not seem consistent with everything we know about Kolmogorova's mentality.

   Reply #49
I do believe there may have been some kind of altercation among some of the hikers based on some of their injuries.  And something else that bothers me a lot is that if you look at the clothes being worn by the hikers at their death...

A fight between the hikers resulting in serious injuries would only have been possible under the action of a powerful drug. 
And a laboratory of the Soviet army could have taken the initiative to test a new psychotropic product poorly known through Zolotaryov .
   See : Altercation on the pass , February 03, 2020, 02:04:13 PM  ---> Reply #15
   https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.msg8382#msg8382

I am now eliminating that hypothes because it is very improbable that Soviet army laboratories improvised a test incorporating civilians (non-military Soviet citizens).
  See : Altercation on the pass ,  March 24, 2020, 04:07:07 PM     ---> Reply #18
  https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.msg8762#msg8762

   Reply #50
  Zina"s top two pairs of pants were undone as if someone had been trying to remove them, maybe for the purpose of wearing them also in an attempt to stay warm.
She was significantly far away from the rest of the hikers that anyone of them trying to remove her clothing is unlikely.

With the hypothesis of the intervention of attackers capable of killing the 9 hikers, gouging out eyes and cutting out a tongue, almost all unanswered questions get a natural explanation. It was the attackers who, after defeating the hickers, without tiring, tortured Krivonischenko by burning, turned over the bodies of the moribunds, placed a camera around Zoloratyov's neck, cut the tent... etc.

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

 ••• North-2 may have been a starting base for the attackers....See :
SteveCalley : General Discussion => Second Severniye, February 25, 2018, 10:15:18 PM
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=109.msg294#msg294
(Note Steve Calley's error: at North-2, there were 25 houses in 1959, some without roofs, not 2000).
North-2, more or less refurbished, is (briefly) visible in several videos of recent expeditions.


 ••• The slope of the Kholat Shyakhl could give the hikers a false impression of loneliness and isolation and thus of security. In fact it was enough for an average, lightly loaded Siberian skier, following the tracks of the 9 hikers, to travel from North-2 to the tent in 8 hours. For the return trip from the tent to North-2, after the hikers had died, 7 hours could be enough given the decrease in altitude.

 ••• In response to the major objection of alecsandros :
   
alecsandros : Theories Discussion / Altercation on the pass / Altercation on the pass, June 26, 2020, 07:06:40 AM  --->    Reply #32
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.msg9765#msg9765
 "why did not the members of Dyatlov Group use the axes at hand ? where they to heavily engaged (attacked) to be able to take anything for self defense ?"

(Indeed it is difficult to threaten people inside a tent with a gun, without arousing their mistrust and anxiety).

Also Mishka has found a solution which seems to me to be the best one :


 ••• Mishka General Discussion / Re: Who cut open the tent?   , August 10, 2020, 12:04:43 AM  --->  Reply #16
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=690.msg10439#msg10439
         ".....they heard some people arrived .................they were asked to leave the tent immediately because the place was in danger..."

I supported this idea with an imaginary statement, see:  Who cut open the tent?,  August 11, 2020, 09:10:11 AM     ---> Reply #18
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=690.msg10460#msg10460


 
 ••• Gipsy General Discussion / Re: Simplest Possible Credible Explanation, April 17, 2019, 03:38:42 PM  ---> Reply #36
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=421.msg5413#msg5413
"If we are discussing simple explanations and motives, when it comes to unvoluntary deaths, statistically the most likely options involve money (highly unlikely in this case) or love affair"
This is a misconception; in History, as far as "unvoluntary deaths" are concerned, war, without forgetting terrorism, which is a kind of unconventional war, is more important.


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

What is intriguing is that Aleks Kandr is rarely quoted on the subject of DPI.
Aleks Kandr sets out his arguments which are admissible for his explanation of DPI on the website :


Aleks Kandr is registered on   : https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/
   Posts: 0 (0 per day)
   Gender:  Male
   Date Registered: October 29, 2019, 01:06:21 PM
   Last Active:     November 11, 2019, 02:23:28 AM

                      Here is a preliminary summary of my hypothesis N°3, which is directly inspired by Aleks Kandr.
 
DPI is a terrorist action commissioned by one or more senior leaders or commanders of the many Gulag camps in the Ivdel region.
This or these Stalinist commanders, who were powerful on the regional scale of the oblast, were naturally violently opposed to the policy of dismantling the Gulag ordered by Krouchtchev from 1953 (a difficult dismantling which lasted until Brezhnev came to power in 1964).

(On the internal societal unrest in the USSR caused by the massive liberation of the zeks during the Thaw (1953-1964), see, for example, but in French, the historians Nicolas Werth and Marc Élie ...).

The 9 unfortunate young hikers, Soviet and apparently completely apolitical, were bearers of a sort of official pass (the VOUCHER) designating them de facto as agents of influence sent by Moscow, in connection with the 21st Congress of the CPSU: 27 January-5 February 1959.
The 20th Congress of the CPSU in 1956 had been the official announcement of destalinization (and sanctions against some Gulag personnel).

The hired mercenaries, probably former camp guards recently put out of work, were able to easily follow the deep trail left by the 9 skiers and reach the tent in just one day's skiing from their North-2 base, to launch a surprise attack at nightfall, February 1, 1959, around 8:00 p.m.

(The 9 heavily laden hikers - the ransom for autonomy - and especially on vacation, had made slow progress with narrow skis in the snow that was very soft under the taiga trees).

The precipitous exit from the tent was the result of a diabolical ruse of war (is however not excluded a tear gas grenade introduced by surprise inside the small tent).

The originality of this terrorist attack lies above all in the fact that no firearms were used, but only wooden clubs (batons).

Part of the group was knocked out and then left inanimate on the spot at -20°C or minus, until death ensued.
The other part had a broken skull and a sunken chest, (the mercenary killers then hit harder with two-handed clubs).
Finally, as a warning sign - and with a ferocity that was not unusual among some of the Gulag's "little chiefs" - a few corpses were vandalized by having their eyes and a tongue ripped out.

Among the many political reasons for the constant smokiness of the Russian authorities from 1959 until 2020, there is also the ridiculous ineptitude of the KGB, which at the time proved incompetent and incapable of protecting nine exemplary youths from the Soviet Union.

Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.

August 21, 2020, 07:55:23 PM
Reply #52
Offline

Squatch


And something else that bothers me a lot is that if you look at the clothes being worn by the hikers at their death, Lyuda either went down to the ravine wearing only a tee shirt, shirt, one sweater and only tights (no pants at all) and she had to strip George of his ruined pants and maybe a sweater or she went down to the ravine with her share of clothes and she was either asked to give up some or she was forced to give them up.  In the first case it seems odd that three guys fairly well dressed (maybe even wearing some of her clothes) would not share some with her and the second case speaks for its self.  So, please, if someone can explain this, do.

This brings up a more general topic about what happens when human beings try to survive.

When working together with other human beings increases your chance of survival, of course you do what you can to help others.

But when your actions mean that others live but you die, then you have to decide whose life is more valuable... your life or someone else's life?

This is the part of the Dyatlov Pass Incident that disturbs me more than anything else. How much voluntary sharing of clothing happened? Was there voluntary "clothes swapping" during the incident or was there selfishness and a refusal to relinquish warm clothing? I do not wish to think about this.

August 23, 2020, 01:20:22 AM
Reply #53
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sparrow


I think I agree with you, squatch, about there MAY have been selfishness on part of some of the hikers.  Nicholas had on Lyuda's hat and coat and at least one pair of her pants was lying cut up in the snow between the cedar and den or on the floor of the den.  As cold as it was, why would she willingly do that?  It makes no sense.  If we put the clothes back on the people to whom they belong, Lyuda would have been wearing  one or two pairs of pants, a tee shirt, shirt, two sweaters, a coat and hat. That would have made Lyuda one of the better dressed hikers.  Nicholas would then have been wearing two shirts, one sweater, two pairs of pants, one cap and valenki. That does not make him one of the better dressed. Nicholas also had George's watch.

I know that this puts Nicholas in a bad light, but people can do some pretty bad things when they are faced with death.

I think the question of the clothes, if answered, could tell us about the dynamics of the group after leaving the tent.  I do not believe they killed each other, but I do believe there were  problems among (at least) some of the group members.  To believe that they all stuck together and helped each other till the end is a nice thought but that does not  necessarily make it true,

« Last Edit: August 23, 2020, 02:03:52 AM by sparrow »

August 23, 2020, 02:00:46 AM
Reply #54
Offline

sparrow


Hello, Jean Daniel Ruess.

Yes, I do believe that Zina burned the jacket and gloves deliberately. If we want to solve this mystery, then we must look at everything we have available including the diaries and (in this case) Zina's letters.

I am trying to look at the hikers as normal young adults.  They were not perfect.  There were some problems.

September 15, 2020, 04:08:25 PM
Reply #55
Online

Jean Daniel Reuss



   Reply #45
 My one question would be the KSD group, weren't there some clothing exchanged on them? Which means they possibly did make it to the Cedar tree with the entire group in general.

I have studied the question of clothing exchanges (or gifts) very poorly, mainly because it seems to me that agreements to give or lend clothing may have occurred on different occasions and at different times that we are unaware of. See :

 Teddy : General Discussion / Injuries, clothing and belongings to Dyatlov group ->  April 29, 2020, 10:27:35 AM
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=620.msg8896#msg8896

 Teddy :  Materials Modern / Publications / Media / Yudin's conclusions on clothing  -> September 03, 2020, 04:09:03 AM
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=705.msg10680#msg10680
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=705.msg10682#msg10682                        Reply #1

 Vietnamka : General Discussion / Clothes  -> « on: March 26, 2019, 09:35:48 AM »
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?board=43.0
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=396.msg4583#msg4583

For example for this unbuttoned fur sleeveless vest there could have been 3 successive gifts:

                   Yuri Yudin --> Kolevatov --> Doroshenko --> Dyatlov

  • Kolevatov gave the unbuttoned fur sleeveless vest to Doroshenko, who was less warmly dressed than him (because Doroshenko was younger and poorer than Kolevatov).
 According to my hypothesis N°3, Kolmogorova and Slobodin never reached the cedar because they were knocked out on the slope of the Kholat Syakhl a few minutes after leaving the tent.
 Remark: contrary to WAB I think that it took only 15 minutes for the 7 surviving (young, sporty and trained) hikers to reach the cedar: speed on the snowy and slippery slope = 6 kilometers per hour.

  • Then when, close to the fire and the cedar, Dyatlov, Doroshenko and Krivonischenko were attacked, Dyatlov was able to escape and he wanted to go back up to the tent to bring back the 3 axes (and the ice axe, if there is one). But Dyatlov was caught by the attackers and knocked out after 300 meters of ascent.

    Reply #54
Yes, I do believe that Zina burned the jacket and gloves deliberately. If we want to solve this mystery, then we must look at everything we have available including the diaries and (in this case) Zina's letters.
I am trying to look at the hikers as normal young adults.  They were not perfect.  There were some problems.


1) Even if Kolmogorova "burned the jacket and gloves deliberately" this does not explain all the facts recorded.

2) What do you think of the 3 arguments presented by Aspen ?

  Aspen :General Discussion / Re: Simplest Possible Credible Explanation -> « on: April 19, 2019, 04:08:27 AM » ; Reply #61
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=421.msg5449#msg5449
.........
   a/ The photos with the burned jacket are obviously posed with a humoristic intent.  There are so many photos of them laughing and smiling…  If any serious friction arose, I think these educated young people would have the social skills to turn it into something funny and to keep the peace in a situation where they utterly depended on each other.
...........
   b/ Those of you who have done this kind of winter camping would know that you don’t have the energy to pick up fights in such situation.  Most importantly, you are intensely aware at all times that your survival depends on group cooperation and cohesion.  So you let frictions slide.  Nobody would run out of the tent without shoes or gloves and blindly walk for a mile in the cold dark storm because of some bickering.
..........
   c/ Besides all that, they had a common goal: to get their class 3 certification.  That was important to them, and they wouldn’t blow that away with fighting that would put everybody’s life at risk.  If a major disappointment arose for someone during that excursion, they would certainly think it better to deal with their opponent or lost love after the excursion ended.  After all they were in this for only 2 or 3 weeks.  That is not enough time for developing uncontrollably strong hatred against anyone.

3) Within the framework of  my hypothesis N°3, it is possible that the four of the Den decided not to come to the defense of Dyatlov, Doroshenko and Krivonischenko when they were attacked close to the fire and the cedar.

Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.

October 28, 2020, 11:13:11 AM
Reply #56
Offline

Per Inge Oestmoen



Quote
- Further on the approach and withdrawal: I understand that the Dyatlov Group was following a mansi hunter trail. They actually encountered a hunter at one point.
Could the attackers escape unobserved by the Mansi people ? After all, they required several days of pursuit, and several days to come back to North2... Some multiple days onto which they could have been spotted.
It’s a big place, by the time they ran into a hunter they could have been 10-20km away from the dead hikers, harder to connect someone to a murder when you don’t know it has happened yet and they are many km away from the crime scene and at least 3-4 weeks before anyone interviews the hunters. There is also another option, either the attackers were that good or they were scary enough to keep the Mansi hunters from talking even if they spotted them especially when the hunters in question figure out that they might have killed 9 people in cold blood.


The attackers could hardly escape the attention of the Mansi hunters. The Mansi more than likely knew the identity of the killers. It is precisely here we see how thoroughly, professionally and brilliantly the whole mission was accomplished.

Let us recall: At the first stages of the investigation, the Mansi came under suspicion (or it was stated that they were). Some members of the Mansi people were being interrogated, and informed that they were under suspicion.

Then, suddenly, there came a message that a seamstress had declared that the destroyed tent had been cut from the inside. Significantly, there was no scientific report and no proof was presented to support that conclusion. The Mansi were immediately freed, and told that they were no longer suspected of being the perpetrators.

What happened?

It would seem that the Mansi were let off the hook, after an unspoken message: "We are capable of inventing evidence as needed, and if you ever tell anyone what you have observed we will reverse the conclusion and come up with the necessary proof against you." Such a message is far more effective than if the Mansi had simply been threatened with an open statement like "if you do not keep quiet you must suffer the consequences."

By ostensibly preparing for a criminal persecution of the local Mansi and then suddenly letting them off the hook, the unspoken threat was purposefully used to make sure that the Mansi would remain silent. And they did.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2020, 11:56:57 AM by Per Inge Oestmoen »

October 28, 2020, 11:19:16 AM
Reply #57
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Per Inge Oestmoen


I managed to read Rakitins book with google translate and ir was almost fine. First part of the book where he describes the autopsies and families and background of the hikers is really good and points out at interesting facts.
Second part in opinion is more like a fiction novel about spies. There are too many speculations and details that are impossible to be assumed. He could have written only that he thinks it was a controled delivery gone wrong . But maybe he wanted to make the book longer and included that long story of action battle and helicopters and all.
Anyway his way of thinking and making observations was very logical so I liked his theory and the way he cobcludes it.
Other author I liked is Svetlana Oss, again murder theory but supposibg that Khanty did it. Again strogest arguments are the autopsies.


I also like, and recommend, the first part of the book by Svetlana Oss. That first part of her book is solid, and she presents solid evidence that the nine students were indeed murdered.

However, I believe that she is wrong about her claim about who performed the killings. That part of the book is speculative and sensational, and she only has hearsay "evidence" to back up her theory - which is in addition made unlikely by the obviously professional and intelligent execution of the killing mission.

October 28, 2020, 11:50:43 AM
Reply #58
Offline

Per Inge Oestmoen


the simplest answer is  - attackers didnt have fire weapons
Gun circulation was strictly controlled in the USSR and satellite countries,
...........  we can exclude some categories of people attacker did not belong to :
1) solders (army, KGB).
2) hunters  ( hunters)  -  and each hunting weapon is listed and its owner is registered.
3) organized criminal groups or bandits   - because nothing important was stolen from the hikers who moreover were not rich.


It is misleading to assume that the attackers did not have firearms.

There is one extremely strong reason why the attackers did not use firearms: Their use would result in unmistakable bullet wounds, and everyone would then know that the hikers were killed by humans.

It has been suggested that if the KGB did the killing they would have used firearms and simply shot the students and put them in closed coffins - or just made them disappear.

Such reasoning is flawed.

If the students had simply disappeared or put in closed coffins and their relatives had been prevented from seeing them, everyone would have understood what had happened. By chasing the students out from their tent and letting the cold to the rest, the perfect murder was orchestrated since there would be no bullet wounds or other telltale signs of violent action from others. This is by far the most probable explanation of the events.

However, the temperature during the night between the first and second day of February 1959 was evidently relatively mild. Therefore, the students did not die after a short time when being driven out from the tent. For that reason, they had to be hunted down and brutally killed. Hence the injuries, which were all consistent with the kind damages to be expected from a murderous human attack. It is said that some of the injuries could not be caused by other humans, but in actual fact these injuries can only be explained by their being attacked and successfully murdered.

Lastly, it merits mention that the nine were gifted individuals who certainly could understand what they saw if they observed some secred weapons testing in the area. There was a risk, however small, that some among them would at some point in time might tell close friends, relatives, spouses or children what they had seen in the Urals. If the nine indeed became witnesses to some secrets, they would be considered a threat to state security and a risk. Such a risk is not what a dictatorial superpower is willing to take.

That is where the "irresistible force" came into play, and every Soviet citizen knew one all-powerful and ubiquitous force in their land: The KGB, which is probably the most competent intelligence and murder agency throughout all of human history. The KGB was experts in orchestrating countless "accidents," "natural deaths" and "suicides," and their hands never trembled when their mission was to eliminate threats to the security of the Soviet state.

This is the most likely possibility, the way I see it. The only other possibility, which is in my opinion very unlikely, is that the Mansi hunters considered the nine students violators of their land and did the killings out of anger.

November 21, 2020, 09:57:01 AM
Reply #59
Online

Jean Daniel Reuss



Reply #58
................................
There is one extremely strong reason why the attackers did not use firearms: Their use would result in unmistakable bullet wounds, and everyone would then know that the hikers were killed by humans.
.......................................
 
 •  Like Per Inge Oestmoen I believe there was an "Altercation on the pass" against human attackers.
 •  But we differ on several points of detail.
 •  The Russians provide us with useful and interesting research leads (I use: translate.yandex.com, but it is time consuming...)
                                 https://taina.li/forum/index.php?board=112.0
                                 http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova
 •  I suspect that the attackers are to be found among the opponents of Khrushchev's Thaw (1953-1964).


   
Below are some remarks and comments :



1 -  It is misleading to assume that the attackers did not have firearms...

The question of whether or not the attackers had firearms is not very important because the fact is that the attackers suceeded to defeat the hikers and then to kill them.
 
 1)  ••• According to the "Autopsy report" it is certain that Kolmogorova, Slobodin and Dyatlov were able to strike with all their strength with their fists for a few seconds before being knocked out. It is less certain that Dorochenko and Krivonischenko were able to hit hard with their fists. See :
                  https://dyatlovpass.com/death

Now it is psychologically almost impossible for a human being holding a firearm and taking a big punch in the face not to defend himself by shooting.

 2)  ••• The attackers were a trinome whose assets were surprise, determination and good fighting tactics. In pursuing the hikers from North-2, the speed was useful and the lightness of the equipment was appreciable. So, for example, the attackers probably planned to eat the mouth provisions that the hikers would leave in the tent.

On the other hand, given the conditions: complete darkness, wind, snow, 9 hikers fighting against 3 attackers, some handguns might have seemed insufficient because of their short range.

So why carry a PPSSh-41 machine pistol  (+ 35-round magazine) weighing 4.3 kilograms with the firm intention of not using it?
              It is absurd to carry a completely useless dead weight.

 3)  ••• In spite of the enormous obvious advantages of firearms, it should not be forgotten that the tactics of the attackers were essentially based on surprise.

In the case of a surprise attack at night followed by confused hand-to-hand combat, a silent weapon  (blunt object) had the advantage of being able to put an enemy out of action without his friendly neighbour being able to see through it.

 4)  ••• Given that it was foreseeable that there could be long-lasting harassment fights, in complete darkness, with perhaps dispersion of the 12 (=3+9) participants in all directions, the risk of fratricidal fire with firearms was not negligible.

Indeed, at certain stages of the action, each participant risked seeing only unidentifiable black  silhouettes moving rapidly over the slightly less dark background of the snow.

It was wise to avoid any with these aggressive but perhaps poorly trained attackers with strict shooting discipline.
The use of (vigorous) blunt object strikes, which involves close combat, avoids the risk of fratricidal shooting.

 5)  ••• And then how to get the hikers out of the tent in the dark and with the sound of the wind blowing the canvas by firing shots into the air (or into the top of the tent, which did not happen). This is impossible because then the hikers would have been worried and would have come out with the short axes in their hands that were inside.

 6)  ••• The attackers were probably somewhat brutal characters and as such they were slightly watched by the KGB or by the police who were suspicious of them.
     a) -  Having legal authorisation to carry a firearm would have made them suspicious at the first incident.
     b) -  Possession of a firearm without authorisation was a source of concern for concealment and serious trouble in the event of discovery.

While it is simpler and ultimately just as effective to use a blunt object that costs nothing.

 7)  ••• By taking the example of the attack on the Thalys train on 21 August 2015, we can think that faced with the threat of a firearm the hikers would have had the same attitude as Chris Norman who said :

"I am not going to be the guy who dies sitting down." "If you're going to die, try to do something about it."
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Thalys_train_attack

 • There was only one attacker, named El Khazzani, armed with a Kalashnikov type AKM with nine full magazines, a Luger 9mm automatic pistol and a cutter.

Spencer Stone rushed toward the attacker, hit him from the front with his head and El Khazzani then released the kalashikov. Then Stone managed to immobilise El Khazzani by a back catch not without being wounded by blows from a cutter............in short the attack failed but it was an extraordinary chance because El Khazzani was too slow to shoot.

 • The film maker Clint Eatwood has produced a film but that is not very informative about the attack itself:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_15:17_to_Paris



     
2 -  However, the temperature during the night between the first and second day of February 1959 was evidently relatively mild...
.
      No matter how unpredictable the exact temperature was.
The method of killing the attackers could work regardless of the temperature.
     a) - High temperature (-5°C): heavy hits, skull fractures, trampoline on the chest = fatal injuries.
     b) - Low temperature (-30°C ): weak strikes, simple knockout, the victim is simply unconscious and left without being rescued = It is enough to wait a short or long time and death by cold inevitably occurs.



   
3 -   if they observed some secred weapons testing in the area...
.

  1)  ••• Even if the hikers had observed [/i] "some secred weapons testing in the area" [/i] there would have been no problem. Because there are at least 3 possibilities:
      a) - An official like, Colonel Ortyukov, the director of the UPI...etc., would have simply told them [/i] "Don't talk about it". [/i]
      b) - Or : "Now you should write a nice newspaper article as witnesses, in a lively and spontaneous way, of the tremendous progress of Soviet military research .
      c) - Now that you have seen in reality the interest of this achievement we are going to hire you to work on the subject with a normal salary.

  2)  ••• Often the vision of the latest models of weapons is not particularly secret, since on the contrary this vision is the subject of official public demonstrations and can be considered as part of propaganda.

The parade of 9 May, on Red Square, was thus an opportunity to affirm the rise in power of the Soviet army ( which later became the Russian army), by revealing its latest military innovations.

   http://parad75.mil.ru/index.html
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1957_October_Revolution_Parade
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_October_Revolution_Parade
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Moscow_Victory_Day_Parade


  3)  ••• It is difficult for me to imagine what this "mysterious thing" could be that could have appeared in the Auspiya valley or on the slope of the Kholat Shyakhl.
     a) - Strange appearances of lights in the sky are of little importance and little interest since it is known that there are planes and balloons which can perform various exercises or tests.

     b) - There were certainly professors and researchers working on sensitive subjects who also taught at the UPI which was (and still is) a state-of-the-art institution.   So UPI officials as well as the Route Commission were in contact with the KGB. 

 If there had been a risk to the security of the USSR, the Route Commission would have indicated and ordered another route to the Dyatlov group, which [/b]with its voucher[/b] had a semi-official position.

  (4)  ••• With the exception of a few lights which were impossible to interpret, no one had ever reported any abnormal findings in the vicinity of the Kholat Syakhl before 1960.
      a) - there would have been a more or less fixed and more or less automatic installation, of the radar or missile base type.
    Then there would have been guards to turn away unwanted visitors.
    Or even a simple placard such as: "Military zone - Access forbidden".

      b) - In 2020 we know that the USSR did not invent antigravity and we also know that the sight of a new model of helicopter or of some lights in the sky, would not be considered as an important state secret.



4 -  If the nine indeed became witnesses to some secrets, they would be considered a threat to state security...


  1)  ••• In short, I do not think there was anything really important to observe during this hike.

  2)  ••• In any case, even if Zolotaryov may not have had an excellent reputation with the PCSU anymore, the nine hikers were good and disciplined citizens. There was no reason to kill them or even to arrest them for what they might have hypothetically seen.

 In 1959 no one disputed the official motto: " to achieve communism, the nation needed the assistance of scientists, engineers, and other experts to bring about a technological revolution in the economy."
In 1959 Khushchev had replaced Stalin and the KGB had supplanted the NKVD and was also in the process of purging former NKVD officials.

 3)  ••• The KGB being exonerated, in my opinion, for the massacre of the hikers (but not for its incompetence to protect the hikers), it would be necessary to consider other lines of research (others than those already extensively commented on in this forum.dyatlovpass.com).

       a) - Meeting of spies - meet in scenarios like Alexey Rakitin that I have not studied in details.
Personally, I find the streets or houses of Sverdlovsk more suitable and safer than the less frequented slopes of the Kholat Syakhl for organising secret meetings.

      b) - Arrivals (parachuting) or departures (sky hook) of foreign spies at night on the Kholat Syakhl. As the region is far from the borders it seems technically impossible to do this at low altitude. Otherwise the story of the Loocked U2 aircraft which flew at 21000 m altitude and was shot down on May 1st 1960 is well known.

      c) - Discovery by chance by the hikers of an illegal gold mining activity north of Vizhay (This is a suggestion from Vietnamka).
 
      d) -   .......??



5 -  The KGB was experts in orchestrating countless "accidents," "natural deaths" and "suicides...

 • But on the contrary, the death of hikers does not seem natural or even simply explainable.

             The KGB would never have done such a pitiful job.

This draws worldwide attention to the worst and most ridiculous aspects of the USSR 60 years later.



6 -  their hands never trembled when their mission was to eliminate threats to the security of the Soviet state...

   1) •••  Yes ! The KGB had no scruples about killing people when they thought that these people were harming the interests of the USSR.
But the KGB was not a gang of dumb gangsters, it was a large, highly hierarchical administration with a system of precise rulings.

The reign of Stalin (1929-1953), who was a typical psychopath, should not be confused with the Khrushchev Thaw period (1953-1964). It is also important not to confuse the NKVD with the KGB either, because precisely during the Thaw the KGB was responsible for eliminating the deviant elements of the NKVD.

   Examples of some NKVD officers tried and sentenced to death during the Thaw.
    Bogdan Koboulov (1904-1953) 
    Lavrenti Beria(1899-1953)
    Mikhaïl Ryoumine(1913-1954)
    Viktor Abakoumov(1908-1954)
    Vsevolod Merkoulov(1895-1954)
    Amaïak Koboulov (1906-1955)
    Boris Rodos(1905-1956)

 2) •••  Khrushchev himself, in spite of other qualities and talents, had great gaps in his scientific and technical knowledge because he had only benefited from a very basic education.

" Nikita Khrushchev worked as a herdsboy from an early age. He was schooled for a total of four years, part in the village parochial school and part under Shevchenko's tutelage in Kalinovka's state school".
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikita_Khrushchev

Therefore Khrushchev generally had great respect and even some admiration for all the Soviet technicians and engineers, competent and patriotic, who had been able to maintain and raise his beloved motherland to the best technical level in the world.

Khrushchev would never have wanted the immediate death of part of the elite of Soviet youth before he had tried everything to put it back on the right path of his good anti-Stalinist communism.
                                             
 3) ••• sarapuk :" There is no evidence to suggest that the Dyatlov Group were killed by the KGB or similar organisation or military.  All accounts show a Group of young Students enjoying life in the USSR and destined for good careers. "



7 -   by the obviously professional and intelligent execution of the killing mission...

 1) •••  Yes ! The attackers were certainly trained for surprise attacks and night fighting in the snow.

So, while the hikers were getting cold and weakening in the cold outside, the attackers probably went back up several times to rest and eat in the shelter of the then undamaged tent.

 2) •••  My suspicions are therefore directed at former Gulag camp guards in the Vizhay region who were specialized in the pursuit and destruction of camp escapees.

 3) •••  However, these attackers were not particularly intelligent or competent.
The attackers did not do much and did very little work to disguise the scene of the action.

 Corpses or the dying were left close to where they fell forever.

The attackers only searched the pockets of the dying on the slope of the Kholat Syakhl.
 and makes the four of the Den slide a few metres in the sloping snow.

 4) •••  On the contrary, in a completely idiotic way, the attackers needlessly cut the tent canvas, (before leaving again on February 2nd), which directed the suspicions towards the reality of a murderous human intervention.

Under no circumstances would the hikers have cut their own tent, as the tent was really their only means of survival.

The result is pitiful : instead of being quickly forgotten in a few years, DPI is still making headlines around the world 60 years after its occurrence.


Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.