Sharavin interview in 2013

[Nigel Evans]

Its FILM DAMAGE or contamination.

Your argument is not helped with the Eagle photo being extremely similar to reports from credible witnesses (including a meteorologist) of a "light surrounded by a mist".

[gypsy]

[
So what exactly are you getting close to  !  ?  I see nothing out of the ordinary in those various search parties.  In fact its what one could maybe expect from something that was a genuine search effort and not pre planned.  But after the finding of the final bodies things then did change quickly.

The rank is too senior - Lieutenant Colonel to instruct a unit of 7 sappers in assisting a search for hikers led by civilians? Why not just a Captain? Why have a Colonel personally pulling three month old corpses out of the ground. These ranks are far too senior for such tasks. Unless there are secrets to be kept, to only be trusted to senior officers perhaps.

Sweeping the area with mine (metal) detectors hints at hunting for debris.

I also find it really suspicious that such senior personnel was present at the scene but almost no experts in relevant fields were called upon. It sheds bad light on the investigation as such a hints at the version that it was never an intention to solve the case properly but to stage a cover up.

[Nigel Evans]

[
So what exactly are you getting close to  !  ?  I see nothing out of the ordinary in those various search parties.  In fact its what one could maybe expect from something that was a genuine search effort and not pre planned.  But after the finding of the final bodies things then did change quickly.

The rank is too senior - Lieutenant Colonel to instruct a unit of 7 sappers in assisting a search for hikers led by civilians? Why not just a Captain? Why have a Colonel personally pulling three month old corpses out of the ground. These ranks are far too senior for such tasks. Unless there are secrets to be kept, to only be trusted to senior officers perhaps.

Sweeping the area with mine (metal) detectors hints at hunting for debris.

I also find it really suspicious that such senior personnel was present at the scene but almost no experts in relevant fields were called upon. It sheds bad light on the investigation as such a hints at the version that it was never an intention to solve the case properly but to stage a cover up.

I don't think it was just a coverup, i think there were two parallel investigations, the normal civilian one using Ivanov and a military investigation seeking debris and all the bodies for a thorough analysis beyond that seen with the public autopsies. When Ivanov started getting close to the truth (fire orbs) he was ordered to stop investigating and front an accidental coverup to the relatives/public and evidence was confiscated.
A good narrative to explain all of this is that they attacked a natural object emitting in the visible and radar regions of the electro magnetic spectrum above Kholat Syakhl (Semyon's Plane1/2 perhaps) with SAM's (possibly low yield nuclear) in the belief that they had an incursion into their airspace. 1958 was a record year for sunspots and attendant geomagnetic energy. That gives you the signs of nitric acid and an area downwind of unusually warmed snow. Then you need a thorough investigation to determine what it was that you fired at. If it was nothing then this has to be proven with an extensive/exhaustive search of the area led by a senior staff officer and KGB personnel assisted with civilians. The use of civilians hints at division within the state and military over the point of the exercise with the KGB being isolated in considering the project necessary and the military reluctant to release manpower. So they used civilian manpower under the guise of a hunt to find all the bodies. Once they had searched 1500 hectares of mountain for debris they finally turned their attention to the ravine.

[sarapuk]

[
So what exactly are you getting close to  !  ?  I see nothing out of the ordinary in those various search parties.  In fact its what one could maybe expect from something that was a genuine search effort and not pre planned.  But after the finding of the final bodies things then did change quickly.

The rank is too senior - Lieutenant Colonel to instruct a unit of 7 sappers in assisting a search for hikers led by civilians? Why not just a Captain? Why have a Colonel personally pulling three month old corpses out of the ground. These ranks are far too senior for such tasks. Unless there are secrets to be kept, to only be trusted to senior officers perhaps.

Sweeping the area with mine (metal) detectors hints at hunting for debris.

Well Iam sure if we asked the Authorities they would have a perfectly rational explanation that didnt suggest any thing untoward.  But the way I see it is that prior to the discovery of the last 4 bodies the Dyatlov Case was looking like a straightforward tragedy, even if Ivanov had suggested that his Geiger Counter went crazy around the camp. Maybe it was that event that caused Ivanov to say something to his superiors who then sent in higher Ranks than may usually have been needed  !  ?  So exactly when did the Lieutenant Colonel arrive on the scene  ?   There is nothing unusual about using Metal Detectors, if maybe they thought there had been say an aviation accident of some kind.

[sarapuk]

Its FILM DAMAGE or contamination.

Your argument is not helped with the Eagle photo being extremely similar to reports from credible witnesses (including a meteorologist) of a "light surrounded by a mist".

Strange looking light and wheres the mist ?

[sarapuk]

[
So what exactly are you getting close to  !  ?  I see nothing out of the ordinary in those various search parties.  In fact its what one could maybe expect from something that was a genuine search effort and not pre planned.  But after the finding of the final bodies things then did change quickly.

The rank is too senior - Lieutenant Colonel to instruct a unit of 7 sappers in assisting a search for hikers led by civilians? Why not just a Captain? Why have a Colonel personally pulling three month old corpses out of the ground. These ranks are far too senior for such tasks. Unless there are secrets to be kept, to only be trusted to senior officers perhaps.

Sweeping the area with mine (metal) detectors hints at hunting for debris.

I also find it really suspicious that such senior personnel was present at the scene but almost no experts in relevant fields were called upon. It sheds bad light on the investigation as such a hints at the version that it was never an intention to solve the case properly but to stage a cover up.

I don't think it was just a coverup, i think there were two parallel investigations, the normal civilian one using Ivanov and a military investigation seeking debris and all the bodies for a thorough analysis beyond that seen with the public autopsies. When Ivanov started getting close to the truth (fire orbs) he was ordered to stop investigating and front an accidental coverup to the relatives/public and evidence was confiscated.
A good narrative to explain all of this is that they attacked a natural object emitting in the visible and radar regions of the electro magnetic spectrum above Kholat Syakhl (Semyon's Plane1/2 perhaps) with SAM's (possibly low yield nuclear) in the belief that they had an incursion into their airspace. 1958 was a record year for sunspots and attendant geomagnetic energy. That gives you the signs of nitric acid and an area downwind of unusually warmed snow. Then you need a thorough investigation to determine what it was that you fired at. If it was nothing then this has to be proven with an extensive/exhaustive search of the area led by a senior staff officer and KGB personnel assisted with civilians. The use of civilians hints at division within the state and military over the point of the exercise with the KGB being isolated in considering the project necessary and the military reluctant to release manpower. So they used civilian manpower under the guise of a hunt to find all the bodies. Once they had searched 1500 hectares of mountain for debris they finally turned their attention to the ravine.

I find it very hard to believe that the Soviets would fire off SAM'S at unknown objects over a fairly remote area  !  ?  The way the Search Parties were organised suggests to me that at first the Authorities thought they were dealing with a fairly straightforward Incident. But that straightforwardness disappeared after the final MUTILATED Bodies were found.

[Nigel Evans]

Its FILM DAMAGE or contamination.

Your argument is not helped with the Eagle photo being extremely similar to reports from credible witnesses (including a meteorologist) of a "light surrounded by a mist".

Strange looking light and wheres the mist ?

You've got to be joking.   

[Nigel Evans]

[
So what exactly are you getting close to  !  ?  I see nothing out of the ordinary in those various search parties.  In fact its what one could maybe expect from something that was a genuine search effort and not pre planned.  But after the finding of the final bodies things then did change quickly.

The rank is too senior - Lieutenant Colonel to instruct a unit of 7 sappers in assisting a search for hikers led by civilians? Why not just a Captain? Why have a Colonel personally pulling three month old corpses out of the ground. These ranks are far too senior for such tasks. Unless there are secrets to be kept, to only be trusted to senior officers perhaps.

Sweeping the area with mine (metal) detectors hints at hunting for debris.

I also find it really suspicious that such senior personnel was present at the scene but almost no experts in relevant fields were called upon. It sheds bad light on the investigation as such a hints at the version that it was never an intention to solve the case properly but to stage a cover up.

I don't think it was just a coverup, i think there were two parallel investigations, the normal civilian one using Ivanov and a military investigation seeking debris and all the bodies for a thorough analysis beyond that seen with the public autopsies. When Ivanov started getting close to the truth (fire orbs) he was ordered to stop investigating and front an accidental coverup to the relatives/public and evidence was confiscated.
A good narrative to explain all of this is that they attacked a natural object emitting in the visible and radar regions of the electro magnetic spectrum above Kholat Syakhl (Semyon's Plane1/2 perhaps) with SAM's (possibly low yield nuclear) in the belief that they had an incursion into their airspace. 1958 was a record year for sunspots and attendant geomagnetic energy. That gives you the signs of nitric acid and an area downwind of unusually warmed snow. Then you need a thorough investigation to determine what it was that you fired at. If it was nothing then this has to be proven with an extensive/exhaustive search of the area led by a senior staff officer and KGB personnel assisted with civilians. The use of civilians hints at division within the state and military over the point of the exercise with the KGB being isolated in considering the project necessary and the military reluctant to release manpower. So they used civilian manpower under the guise of a hunt to find all the bodies. Once they had searched 1500 hectares of mountain for debris they finally turned their attention to the ravine.

I find it very hard to believe that the Soviets would fire off SAM'S at unknown objects over a fairly remote area  !  ?  The way the Search Parties were organised suggests to me that at first the Authorities thought they were dealing with a fairly straightforward Incident. But that straightforwardness disappeared after the final MUTILATED Bodies were found.

Why wouldn't they fire at unknown objects, isn't that what the missiles are for? The Soviets were extremely irritated by U2 spy planes flying over their airspace out of reach of their SAMs (until 1960). It was the Cold War.
It took three months to discover the ravine four but they were sweeping the hills with mine detectors from day 1? A team of 7 sappers commanded by a Lieutenant Colonel? Nothing straightforward about this.

[Clacon]

Did they all arrive at the same time to search? The Civilians and the Military parties??

[gypsy]

[
So what exactly are you getting close to  !  ?  I see nothing out of the ordinary in those various search parties.  In fact its what one could maybe expect from something that was a genuine search effort and not pre planned.  But after the finding of the final bodies things then did change quickly.

The rank is too senior - Lieutenant Colonel to instruct a unit of 7 sappers in assisting a search for hikers led by civilians? Why not just a Captain? Why have a Colonel personally pulling three month old corpses out of the ground. These ranks are far too senior for such tasks. Unless there are secrets to be kept, to only be trusted to senior officers perhaps.

Sweeping the area with mine (metal) detectors hints at hunting for debris.

I also find it really suspicious that such senior personnel was present at the scene but almost no experts in relevant fields were called upon. It sheds bad light on the investigation as such a hints at the version that it was never an intention to solve the case properly but to stage a cover up.

I don't think it was just a coverup, i think there were two parallel investigations, the normal civilian one using Ivanov and a military investigation seeking debris and all the bodies for a thorough analysis beyond that seen with the public autopsies. When Ivanov started getting close to the truth (fire orbs) he was ordered to stop investigating and front an accidental coverup to the relatives/public and evidence was confiscated.
A good narrative to explain all of this is that they attacked a natural object emitting in the visible and radar regions of the electro magnetic spectrum above Kholat Syakhl (Semyon's Plane1/2 perhaps) with SAM's (possibly low yield nuclear) in the belief that they had an incursion into their airspace. 1958 was a record year for sunspots and attendant geomagnetic energy. That gives you the signs of nitric acid and an area downwind of unusually warmed snow. Then you need a thorough investigation to determine what it was that you fired at. If it was nothing then this has to be proven with an extensive/exhaustive search of the area led by a senior staff officer and KGB personnel assisted with civilians. The use of civilians hints at division within the state and military over the point of the exercise with the KGB being isolated in considering the project necessary and the military reluctant to release manpower. So they used civilian manpower under the guise of a hunt to find all the bodies. Once they had searched 1500 hectares of mountain for debris they finally turned their attention to the ravine.

I find it very hard to believe that the Soviets would fire off SAM'S at unknown objects over a fairly remote area  !  ?  The way the Search Parties were organised suggests to me that at first the Authorities thought they were dealing with a fairly straightforward Incident. But that straightforwardness disappeared after the final MUTILATED Bodies were found.

I don't understand why you put so much trust in the so called authorities and why you keep referring to them as to unified solid bureau or institution. It simply does not work like that anywhere, not to mention the USSR... information sharing was virtually non existent between higher and upper ranks when it came to military - related activities or investigation. And even if that happened, it would have been a treason to reveal ANY sort of information beyond the official line.

[gypsy]

Did they all arrive at the same time to search? The Civilians and the Military parties??

No idea...  the investigation files released to public are not complete. We only know there was some senior personnel present at the scene and logically, that was for a reason. People like that don't just go around the country and look at dead bodies. Same goes with the possible Military activities, there was for sure a record if something was going on. There was of course never any official statement to confirm or deny that.

[Nigel Evans]

Did they all arrive at the same time to search? The Civilians and the Military parties??

that's my understanding of - https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-36-39

[sarapuk]

Its FILM DAMAGE or contamination.

Your argument is not helped with the Eagle photo being extremely similar to reports from credible witnesses (including a meteorologist) of a "light surrounded by a mist".

No, I dont joke about the Dyatlov Case.

Strange looking light and wheres the mist ?

You've got to be joking.   

[sarapuk]

[
So what exactly are you getting close to  !  ?  I see nothing out of the ordinary in those various search parties.  In fact its what one could maybe expect from something that was a genuine search effort and not pre planned.  But after the finding of the final bodies things then did change quickly.

The rank is too senior - Lieutenant Colonel to instruct a unit of 7 sappers in assisting a search for hikers led by civilians? Why not just a Captain? Why have a Colonel personally pulling three month old corpses out of the ground. These ranks are far too senior for such tasks. Unless there are secrets to be kept, to only be trusted to senior officers perhaps.

Sweeping the area with mine (metal) detectors hints at hunting for debris.

I also find it really suspicious that such senior personnel was present at the scene but almost no experts in relevant fields were called upon. It sheds bad light on the investigation as such a hints at the version that it was never an intention to solve the case properly but to stage a cover up.

I don't think it was just a coverup, i think there were two parallel investigations, the normal civilian one using Ivanov and a military investigation seeking debris and all the bodies for a thorough analysis beyond that seen with the public autopsies. When Ivanov started getting close to the truth (fire orbs) he was ordered to stop investigating and front an accidental coverup to the relatives/public and evidence was confiscated.
A good narrative to explain all of this is that they attacked a natural object emitting in the visible and radar regions of the electro magnetic spectrum above Kholat Syakhl (Semyon's Plane1/2 perhaps) with SAM's (possibly low yield nuclear) in the belief that they had an incursion into their airspace. 1958 was a record year for sunspots and attendant geomagnetic energy. That gives you the signs of nitric acid and an area downwind of unusually warmed snow. Then you need a thorough investigation to determine what it was that you fired at. If it was nothing then this has to be proven with an extensive/exhaustive search of the area led by a senior staff officer and KGB personnel assisted with civilians. The use of civilians hints at division within the state and military over the point of the exercise with the KGB being isolated in considering the project necessary and the military reluctant to release manpower. So they used civilian manpower under the guise of a hunt to find all the bodies. Once they had searched 1500 hectares of mountain for debris they finally turned their attention to the ravine.

I find it very hard to believe that the Soviets would fire off SAM'S at unknown objects over a fairly remote area  !  ?  The way the Search Parties were organised suggests to me that at first the Authorities thought they were dealing with a fairly straightforward Incident. But that straightforwardness disappeared after the final MUTILATED Bodies were found.

Why wouldn't they fire at unknown objects, isn't that what the missiles are for? The Soviets were extremely irritated by U2 spy planes flying over their airspace out of reach of their SAMs (until 1960). It was the Cold War.
It took three months to discover the ravine four but they were sweeping the hills with mine detectors from day 1? A team of 7 sappers commanded by a Lieutenant Colonel? Nothing straightforward about this.

Well firing at unknown objects means you may be firing at your own people. Where does it state that they were sweeping the hills from day 1  !  ?

[sarapuk]

[
So what exactly are you getting close to  !  ?  I see nothing out of the ordinary in those various search parties.  In fact its what one could maybe expect from something that was a genuine search effort and not pre planned.  But after the finding of the final bodies things then did change quickly.

The rank is too senior - Lieutenant Colonel to instruct a unit of 7 sappers in assisting a search for hikers led by civilians? Why not just a Captain? Why have a Colonel personally pulling three month old corpses out of the ground. These ranks are far too senior for such tasks. Unless there are secrets to be kept, to only be trusted to senior officers perhaps.

Sweeping the area with mine (metal) detectors hints at hunting for debris.

I also find it really suspicious that such senior personnel was present at the scene but almost no experts in relevant fields were called upon. It sheds bad light on the investigation as such a hints at the version that it was never an intention to solve the case properly but to stage a cover up.

I don't think it was just a coverup, i think there were two parallel investigations, the normal civilian one using Ivanov and a military investigation seeking debris and all the bodies for a thorough analysis beyond that seen with the public autopsies. When Ivanov started getting close to the truth (fire orbs) he was ordered to stop investigating and front an accidental coverup to the relatives/public and evidence was confiscated.
A good narrative to explain all of this is that they attacked a natural object emitting in the visible and radar regions of the electro magnetic spectrum above Kholat Syakhl (Semyon's Plane1/2 perhaps) with SAM's (possibly low yield nuclear) in the belief that they had an incursion into their airspace. 1958 was a record year for sunspots and attendant geomagnetic energy. That gives you the signs of nitric acid and an area downwind of unusually warmed snow. Then you need a thorough investigation to determine what it was that you fired at. If it was nothing then this has to be proven with an extensive/exhaustive search of the area led by a senior staff officer and KGB personnel assisted with civilians. The use of civilians hints at division within the state and military over the point of the exercise with the KGB being isolated in considering the project necessary and the military reluctant to release manpower. So they used civilian manpower under the guise of a hunt to find all the bodies. Once they had searched 1500 hectares of mountain for debris they finally turned their attention to the ravine.

I find it very hard to believe that the Soviets would fire off SAM'S at unknown objects over a fairly remote area  !  ?  The way the Search Parties were organised suggests to me that at first the Authorities thought they were dealing with a fairly straightforward Incident. But that straightforwardness disappeared after the final MUTILATED Bodies were found.

I don't understand why you put so much trust in the so called authorities and why you keep referring to them as to unified solid bureau or institution. It simply does not work like that anywhere, not to mention the USSR... information sharing was virtually non existent between higher and upper ranks when it came to military - related activities or investigation. And even if that happened, it would have been a treason to reveal ANY sort of information beyond the official line.

You say that information sharing was virtually non existent between higher and lower ranks when it came to the military  !  ?  Good job you are wrong.  The USSR had Nuclear capability from the time of Stalin. There had to be communication at all levels. Same for the other Nuclear capable Nations, and still is.

[WAB]

Excuse me, I have repeatedly answered the old message.
She is mine mistake...

[gypsy]

You say that information sharing was virtually non existent between higher and lower ranks when it came to the military  !  ?  Good job you are wrong.  The USSR had Nuclear capability from the time of Stalin. There had to be communication at all levels. Same for the other Nuclear capable Nations, and still is.

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Sharing information pretty much defeats the purpose of making something secret. All military or intelligence information was classified in the USSR and unauthorized sharing was punishable (art.75 of Criminal of the RSFSR, version 1960). That is exactly why local "authorities" such as investigators or prosecutors were never aware of any Military or KGB activity. Do you think that if there is a new weapon test (maybe an illegal one, chemical? spiked with uranium?), the Air force officers along with KGB men would first travel around Soviet Russia to brief all the low-ranked comrades? Sounds silly, doesn't it?

"Pre-digital technology helped, including Soviet policies that
monopolized the early digital technologies and kept them well away from
anyone who was not completely reliable. But technology was not
everything. The hermetic, suffocating character of Soviet secrecy can
hardly be explained without mentioning another constituent that was not
so much institutional as moral or ethical. Soviet leaders were entirely
unaffected by any sense of obligation to account in public for the
decisions they made or their outcomes. On the contrary, the greatest
obligation that they felt was to each other, expressed in a code of silence
that they called “conspirativeness.”
The concept of conspirativeness was unknown to Hutchings (1987),
and it was a surprise to Fitzpatrick (1990). But the code was as old as the
Bolshevik Revolution. It had its origins in the pre-revolutionary
underground. When the Bolsheviks came to power, conspirativeness
became an organizing principle of the new Soviet state, being formalized
in the 1920s, at the beginning of Stalin’s tenure as party general secretary
4
(Kurenkov 2015; also Istochnik 1993; Khlevniuk et al. 1995: 74-77; on
“conspirativity” in the Romanian Securitate, see Verdery 2014: 43-50).
Under conspirativeness, no one had a right to know anything at all.
There was only need-to-know, granted by higher to lower authority and
only ever on a discretionary and temporary basis. Table 1 contrasts the
basic codes of Soviet and American government secrecy since World War
II. As the table suggests, right-to-know versus need-to-know was a
defining conflict of the Cold War (cf Hutchings 1987: 224-226). " p.3-4

"The capacity of the Soviet state to prevent abuse of office was limited
by the fact that the most important stage of initial investigation was itself
secret. This was the stage of party investigation, which provided the first
filter in the processing of cases of wrong doing. Party investigation was a
party secret, not a state secret, but the concept of conspirativeness that
applied was identical. " p.14

source: https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/research/workingpapers/2017/twerp_1134_harrison.pdf

[gypsy]

Well firing at unknown objects means you may be firing at your own people. Where does it state that they were sweeping the hills from day 1  !  ?

When the most famous shotdown in the USSR happened - shooting down the USAF U-2 in 1960 near Sverdlovsk!!!, 14 SAM were fired, one hit U-2 plane, one was a friendly fire hit of the soviet interceptor aircraft and the remaining dozen crashed god knows where. It was not the the first breach of the Soviet airspace by USAF and thus not the first 14 SAMs fired. The order of battle at that time was basically to bring down USAF aircraft by all means including ramming by other aircraft. BTW remember the KAL007? Soviet military has a bad history of firing at own people or civilians so ask them why they fired SAMs at unknown objects.

[Nigel Evans]

Well firing at unknown objects means you may be firing at your own people. Where does it state that they were sweeping the hills from day 1  !  ?

post #42.

[Nigel Evans]

Well firing at unknown objects means you may be firing at your own people. Where does it state that they were sweeping the hills from day 1  !  ?

When the most famous shotdown in the USSR happened - shooting down the USAF U-2 in 1960 near Sverdlovsk!!!, 14 SAM were fired, one hit U-2 plane, one was a friendly fire hit of the soviet interceptor aircraft and the remaining dozen crashed god knows where. It was not the the first breach of the Soviet airspace by USAF and thus not the first 14 SAMs fired. The order of battle at that time was basically to bring down USAF aircraft by all means including ramming by other aircraft. BTW remember the KAL007? Soviet military has a bad history of firing at own people or civilians so ask them why they fired SAMs at unknown objects.

Probably the generals/air marshals were under strict standing orders to fire at all perceived threats. Any less would be treason.

[gypsy]

Well firing at unknown objects means you may be firing at your own people. Where does it state that they were sweeping the hills from day 1  !  ?

When the most famous shotdown in the USSR happened - shooting down the USAF U-2 in 1960 near Sverdlovsk!!!, 14 SAM were fired, one hit U-2 plane, one was a friendly fire hit of the soviet interceptor aircraft and the remaining dozen crashed god knows where. It was not the the first breach of the Soviet airspace by USAF and thus not the first 14 SAMs fired. The order of battle at that time was basically to bring down USAF aircraft by all means including ramming by other aircraft. BTW remember the KAL007? Soviet military has a bad history of firing at own people or civilians so ask them why they fired SAMs at unknown objects.

Probably the generals/air marshals were under strict standing orders to fire at all perceived threats. Any less would be treason.

Yes, that was pretty much the case. The pilot of Russian fighter jet was instructed to ram the U2 if necessary. There is a Russian source to it: https://vpk-news.ru/articles/6393

(understandable with Google translate for non Russian speakers)

[Nigel Evans]

Well firing at unknown objects means you may be firing at your own people. Where does it state that they were sweeping the hills from day 1  !  ?

When the most famous shotdown in the USSR happened - shooting down the USAF U-2 in 1960 near Sverdlovsk!!!, 14 SAM were fired, one hit U-2 plane, one was a friendly fire hit of the soviet interceptor aircraft and the remaining dozen crashed god knows where. It was not the the first breach of the Soviet airspace by USAF and thus not the first 14 SAMs fired. The order of battle at that time was basically to bring down USAF aircraft by all means including ramming by other aircraft. BTW remember the KAL007? Soviet military has a bad history of firing at own people or civilians so ask them why they fired SAMs at unknown objects.

Probably the generals/air marshals were under strict standing orders to fire at all perceived threats. Any less would be treason.

Yes, that was pretty much the case. The pilot of Russian fighter jet was instructed to ram the U2 if necessary. There is a Russian source to it: https://vpk-news.ru/articles/6393

(understandable with Google translate for non Russian speakers)

Thanks for the article, ordering a pilot without even high altitude equipment to try and ram the plane with a one shot attempt above it's operating ceiling indicates the mindset. Doesn't sound like they had great faith in the SA-75s! 

[Nigel Evans]

I find it very hard to believe that the Soviets would fire off SAM'S at unknown objects over a fairly remote area  !  ?

I don't think it was strategically that remote. The Urals are significant to the mindset. It's my understanding that during WW2 one of Germany's key mistakes was not to develop a long range bomber that could attack Russia's industrial heartland east of the Urals (from forward airfields west of Moscow and in the Ukraine). So Russia's industrial war effort was unhindered in what became a mammoth war of attrition. It was a key mistake that on it's own could be said to have cost them the war in the East. After WW2 afaik Russia's industrial military machine continued to be based in this region. So any ingress into the airspace near Sverdlovsk had massive strategic implications with the Ural mountains being iconic. Get the Sverdlovsk region and you've got Russia perhaps. Also a full scale airborne attack by a substantially stronger country would perhaps choose a remote area in winter in order to build up forces as the region would not allow the defending country an easy response.

[gypsy]

Well firing at unknown objects means you may be firing at your own people. Where does it state that they were sweeping the hills from day 1  !  ?

When the most famous shotdown in the USSR happened - shooting down the USAF U-2 in 1960 near Sverdlovsk!!!, 14 SAM were fired, one hit U-2 plane, one was a friendly fire hit of the soviet interceptor aircraft and the remaining dozen crashed god knows where. It was not the the first breach of the Soviet airspace by USAF and thus not the first 14 SAMs fired. The order of battle at that time was basically to bring down USAF aircraft by all means including ramming by other aircraft. BTW remember the KAL007? Soviet military has a bad history of firing at own people or civilians so ask them why they fired SAMs at unknown objects.

Probably the generals/air marshals were under strict standing orders to fire at all perceived threats. Any less would be treason.

Yes, that was pretty much the case. The pilot of Russian fighter jet was instructed to ram the U2 if necessary. There is a Russian source to it: https://vpk-news.ru/articles/6393

(understandable with Google translate for non Russian speakers)

Thanks for the article, ordering a pilot without even high altitude equipment to try and ram the plane with a one shot attempt above it's operating ceiling indicates the mindset. Doesn't sound like they had great faith in the SA-75s! 

Well that is probably why they fired more than one SAM...  little overkill never killed nobody in Soviet union...

But going back to the topic, I would be interested what people working at the radar and air defence station have to say about the Ivanov's fire orbs or any unusual activity caught on radar around the date of the DPI. I have no idea if some sort of natural electrical phenomenon would be visible on radar used by Soviet Air defence in 1959. We know the SA75s were operational since 1957 and at least some of them in 1960 were fired upon spy planes with no hit... Also I would be interested in the procedure of recovery of such wreckages (exclusion zone? army deployment to a remote area by helicopter? ) According to the article, the friendly fire incident was kept secret for many years. Guess what would happen if that was a civilian hit...

[Nigel Evans]

Well that is probably why they fired more than one SAM...  little overkill never killed nobody in Soviet union...

But going back to the topic, I would be interested what people working at the radar and air defence station have to say about the Ivanov's fire orbs or any unusual activity caught on radar around the date of the DPI. I have no idea if some sort of natural electrical phenomenon would be visible on radar used by Soviet Air defence in 1959. We know the SA75s were operational since 1957 and at least some of them in 1960 were fired upon spy planes with no hit... Also I would be interested in the procedure of recovery of such wreckages (exclusion zone? army deployment to a remote area by helicopter? ) According to the article, the friendly fire incident was kept secret for many years. Guess what would happen if that was a civilian hit...

I like it, it's a good theory, what to do with the spent rockets that don't hit their target. If they have control surfaces that can be guided from the ground then could they not be remotely piloted in a glide to a safe crash zone? A glide path could possibly greatly exceed their range. Maybe in the Urals with a name like Dead Mountain?... Then send in some helicopters as garbage trucks. You'd need a tracked vehicle to drag the stuff to the pickup location. An Mil Mi-6 with a payload of 12 tonnes would do nicely. Then you find a tent with signs of nine people, oops. Three weeks later, you're notified of a rescue mission for overdue tourists. Better send along a team with metal detectors just in case the cleanup operation missed anything. It will be easy for them to stay ahead of the main search group probing the ground. Put a senior staff officer in charge of the sappers as he has to know what he's looking for.

It's a good fit!

[Loose}{Cannon]

including ramming by other aircraft

Boy, was that wishful thinking!   

If they have control surfaces that can be guided from the ground then could they not be remotely piloted in a glide to a safe crash zone?

The U2 had a 'jammer' that jammed the communications between radar, launch site, and missile.  The Russians were "spraying and praying".   
 

[gypsy]

The U2 had a 'jammer' that jammed the communications between radar, launch site, and missile.  The Russians were "spraying and praying".   

Sounds like more of a reason why a missile could hit something on the ground by mistake.

[Loose}{Cannon]

The U2 had a 'jammer' that jammed the communications between radar, launch site, and missile.  The Russians were "spraying and praying".   

Sounds like more of a reason why a missile could hit something on the ground by mistake.

Yup, and interception via another aircraft was..... futile.   These things technically go into OUTERSPACE!

Take a ride in a U2 which is STILL currently in operation!   

PLEASE GO TO THE 7:45 MARK AND FULL SCREEN.




GO TO 3:30

[sarapuk]

You say that information sharing was virtually non existent between higher and lower ranks when it came to the military  !  ?  Good job you are wrong.  The USSR had Nuclear capability from the time of Stalin. There had to be communication at all levels. Same for the other Nuclear capable Nations, and still is.

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Sharing information pretty much defeats the purpose of making something secret. All military or intelligence information was classified in the USSR and unauthorized sharing was punishable (art.75 of Criminal of the RSFSR, version 1960). That is exactly why local "authorities" such as investigators or prosecutors were never aware of any Military or KGB activity. Do you think that if there is a new weapon test (maybe an illegal one, chemical? spiked with uranium?), the Air force officers along with KGB men would first travel around Soviet Russia to brief all the low-ranked comrades? Sounds silly, doesn't it?

"Pre-digital technology helped, including Soviet policies that
monopolized the early digital technologies and kept them well away from
anyone who was not completely reliable. But technology was not
everything. The hermetic, suffocating character of Soviet secrecy can
hardly be explained without mentioning another constituent that was not
so much institutional as moral or ethical. Soviet leaders were entirely
unaffected by any sense of obligation to account in public for the
decisions they made or their outcomes. On the contrary, the greatest
obligation that they felt was to each other, expressed in a code of silence
that they called “conspirativeness.”
The concept of conspirativeness was unknown to Hutchings (1987),
and it was a surprise to Fitzpatrick (1990). But the code was as old as the
Bolshevik Revolution. It had its origins in the pre-revolutionary
underground. When the Bolsheviks came to power, conspirativeness
became an organizing principle of the new Soviet state, being formalized
in the 1920s, at the beginning of Stalin’s tenure as party general secretary
4
(Kurenkov 2015; also Istochnik 1993; Khlevniuk et al. 1995: 74-77; on
“conspirativity” in the Romanian Securitate, see Verdery 2014: 43-50).
Under conspirativeness, no one had a right to know anything at all.
There was only need-to-know, granted by higher to lower authority and
only ever on a discretionary and temporary basis. Table 1 contrasts the
basic codes of Soviet and American government secrecy since World War
II. As the table suggests, right-to-know versus need-to-know was a
defining conflict of the Cold War (cf Hutchings 1987: 224-226). " p.3-4

"The capacity of the Soviet state to prevent abuse of office was limited
by the fact that the most important stage of initial investigation was itself
secret. This was the stage of party investigation, which provided the first
filter in the processing of cases of wrong doing. Party investigation was a
party secret, not a state secret, but the concept of conspirativeness that
applied was identical. " p.14

source: https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/research/workingpapers/2017/twerp_1134_harrison.pdf

Ok so you claim that there was very little information sharing between the higher and lower ranks of the Soviet Military. And I claim that there was plenty of information sharing. You present a paper that someone at a University has put together to prove what  !  ?  Do you really believe that there was no information sharing between all ranks of the Soviet Military during the so called Cold War, when both the USSR and the USA where just a BUTTON PRESS away from annihilating one another !  ?  There does not need to be SECRETS between the various Military Branches. Its very important that they each know what the other is doing etc etc. You keep SECRETS from the ENEMY. And the ENEMY was the USA and unfortunately, STILL IS.

[sarapuk]

Well firing at unknown objects means you may be firing at your own people. Where does it state that they were sweeping the hills from day 1  !  ?

When the most famous shotdown in the USSR happened - shooting down the USAF U-2 in 1960 near Sverdlovsk!!!, 14 SAM were fired, one hit U-2 plane, one was a friendly fire hit of the soviet interceptor aircraft and the remaining dozen crashed god knows where. It was not the the first breach of the Soviet airspace by USAF and thus not the first 14 SAMs fired. The order of battle at that time was basically to bring down USAF aircraft by all means including ramming by other aircraft. BTW remember the KAL007? Soviet military has a bad history of firing at own people or civilians so ask them why they fired SAMs at unknown objects.

Well unfortunately, FRIENDLY FIRE, as it is known, still goes on today. There was much Friendly Fire during the Gulf War.  Accidents happen. But that doesnt mean its a POLICY to shoot off Missiles at unknown flying objects etc etc.