July 12, 2020, 06:47:11 PM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Exploring The Yeti Theory  (Read 20729 times)

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December 24, 2019, 12:31:38 PM
Reply #390
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sarapuk

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Geez...  when I was 13, I was hit by a car and my head went through the windshield. Not a single scratch on my head other then a goose egg and a headache.  I was hit by a car a second time.... chattered my ankle in dozens of pieces..... not a scratch.

You were very lucky then. Usually there would be damage to skin etc.
DB

December 24, 2019, 12:34:26 PM
Reply #391
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sarapuk

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Geez...  when I was 13, I was hit by a car and my head went through the windshield. Not a single scratch on my head other then a goose egg and a headache.  I was hit by a car a second time.... chattered my ankle in dozens of pieces..... not a scratch.

Yeah as I said it is a difficult one.  With the clothes it is possible that they could have prevented the soft tissue damage.

Regards

Star man

Well apart from one being VERY LUCKY, I would say that most falls or collisions will result in some skin damage etc even with clothing protection.
DB

December 27, 2019, 12:35:15 PM
Reply #392
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Per Inge Oestmoen



Why not just make them all disappear, including the tent and all their gear?  That would leave zero evidence and just one big mystery about their disappearance?  It's much cleaner and easier and far more logical.

Another possibility is if they had seen something why not make them sign non disclosure documents, in the ame way the pathologists were required to sign non disclosure documents?

One other question Lyuda left set of ribs have 6 fractures all in a single line.  How was this pattern of fractures created so linearly?



1. Why not make them all disappear?

- Because then it would have been rather obvious that it was murder. The public, their relatives and friends would have understood that nine resourceful humans do not spontaneously disappear with no trace, and they would quite correctly assumed that a killing mission had taken place. That could have created public unrest. To avoid that, it is far more logical to arrange an "accident." Secret police forces all over the worid arrange "suicides", "accidents" and "natural deaths," in particular when the security of state is at stake. Think about the famous Giorgi Markov case. Only the fact that Markov managed to tell of a man running from him after he felt a sharp pain in his thigh prevented the murder to be written off as a "natural death."

2. Why not make them sign non disclosure documents?

- These nine students were bright people. They were young, and they would understand what they observed and be able to tell others in great detail. That made them potentially dangerous. Even if there were no reason to doubt their loyalty to the Soviet state there would always be a risk that one or several of them would tell some spouse, friend or relative what they saw back in 1959. That could be considered too much of a risk to take.

3. One other question Lyuda left set of ribs have 6 fractures all in a single line.  How was this pattern of fractures created so linearly?

- There is no way to tell exactly how it happened, but a likely scenario is that Dubinina was pressed in a standing position against a tree or held by one member of the killing squad while another one dealt the lethal blows with elbows or perhaps a rifle butt. Since Lyuda's body was firmly fixated in one position, the resulting damage also showed a linear pattern if the blows were delivered from the same angle which is likely during such an attack.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2019, 12:40:13 PM by Per Inge Oestmoen »

December 28, 2019, 01:11:48 PM
Reply #393
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient

Why not just make them all disappear, including the tent and all their gear?  That would leave zero evidence and just one big mystery about their disappearance?  It's much cleaner and easier and far more logical.

Another possibility is if they had seen something why not make them sign non disclosure documents, in the ame way the pathologists were required to sign non disclosure documents?

One other question Lyuda left set of ribs have 6 fractures all in a single line.  How was this pattern of fractures created so linearly?



1. Why not make them all disappear?

- Because then it would have been rather obvious that it was murder. The public, their relatives and friends would have understood that nine resourceful humans do not spontaneously disappear with no trace, and they would quite correctly assumed that a killing mission had taken place. That could have created public unrest. To avoid that, it is far more logical to arrange an "accident." Secret police forces all over the worid arrange "suicides", "accidents" and "natural deaths," in particular when the security of state is at stake. Think about the famous Giorgi Markov case. Only the fact that Markov managed to tell of a man running from him after he felt a sharp pain in his thigh prevented the murder to be written off as a "natural death."

2. Why not make them sign non disclosure documents?

- These nine students were bright people. They were young, and they would understand what they observed and be able to tell others in great detail. That made them potentially dangerous. Even if there were no reason to doubt their loyalty to the Soviet state there would always be a risk that one or several of them would tell some spouse, friend or relative what they saw back in 1959. That could be considered too much of a risk to take.

3. One other question Lyuda left set of ribs have 6 fractures all in a single line.  How was this pattern of fractures created so linearly?

- There is no way to tell exactly how it happened, but a likely scenario is that Dubinina was pressed in a standing position against a tree or held by one member of the killing squad while another one dealt the lethal blows with elbows or perhaps a rifle butt. Since Lyuda's body was firmly fixated in one position, the resulting damage also showed a linear pattern if the blows were delivered from the same angle which is likely during such an attack.


But if some one wanted to make it look like an accident then why not do something more simple. There are many ways potential murderers could have made it look more like an accident.  Also you can not explain the missing tongue or extraordinary movement of one of the toughest bones in the Human Body.
DB

December 28, 2019, 05:07:21 PM
Reply #394
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Star man

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Why not just make them all disappear, including the tent and all their gear?  That would leave zero evidence and just one big mystery about their disappearance?  It's much cleaner and easier and far more logical.

Another possibility is if they had seen something why not make them sign non disclosure documents, in the ame way the pathologists were required to sign non disclosure documents?

One other question Lyuda left set of ribs have 6 fractures all in a single line.  How was this pattern of fractures created so linearly?



1. Why not make them all disappear?

- Because then it would have been rather obvious that it was murder. The public, their relatives and friends would have understood that nine resourceful humans do not spontaneously disappear with no trace, and they would quite correctly assumed that a killing mission had taken place. That could have created public unrest. To avoid that, it is far more logical to arrange an "accident." Secret police forces all over the worid arrange "suicides", "accidents" and "natural deaths," in particular when the security of state is at stake. Think about the famous Giorgi Markov case. Only the fact that Markov managed to tell of a man running from him after he felt a sharp pain in his thigh prevented the murder to be written off as a "natural death."

2. Why not make them sign non disclosure documents?

- These nine students were bright people. They were young, and they would understand what they observed and be able to tell others in great detail. That made them potentially dangerous. Even if there were no reason to doubt their loyalty to the Soviet state there would always be a risk that one or several of them would tell some spouse, friend or relative what they saw back in 1959. That could be considered too much of a risk to take.

3. One other question Lyuda left set of ribs have 6 fractures all in a single line.  How was this pattern of fractures created so linearly?

- There is no way to tell exactly how it happened, but a likely scenario is that Dubinina was pressed in a standing position against a tree or held by one member of the killing squad while another one dealt the lethal blows with elbows or perhaps a rifle butt. Since Lyuda's body was firmly fixated in one position, the resulting damage also showed a linear pattern if the blows were delivered from the same angle which is likely during such an attack.

Why would you associate disappearing in a very harsh environment as murder?  People disappear in such environments all the time .  They could have fallen into a crevasse and their bodies covered with snow? 

Are there examples of straight line multiple rib fractures and flail chest that you could put forward to substantiate your claim that these injuries are consistent with hand to hand combat?  My own analysis suggests that these injuries could not have been caused in that way.  At least not by a human. 

Also the shape of Thibo’s depressed fracture is identical in shape and proportions to the ball of a thumb.  I would expect a rifle butt to be flatter on one side.  Again are there examples to substantiate that a blow from a rifle butt can result in such a shape on the skull?

One other question.  Why do you think it was human rather than a Yeti?

Regards
Star man

January 02, 2020, 05:00:57 PM
Reply #395
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Star man

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Going back to the injuries and whether they could have been a result of a fall down a steep slope.  There are a couple of questions that come to mind:

1.  Were Lyuda's chest injuries a result of a single large impact or two separate impacts?
2. Is it a coincidence that the two people with significant chest injuries also both had missing eyes?

I think for 1 two impacts seem more likely but if this were the case would the first impact not absorb most of the energy of the fall which then leaves the question where did the energy come from for the second impact?  A second fall or continued fall?

For 2 it just seems unlikely to be a coincidence.  It's not impossible just less likely. 

Regards

Star man

January 03, 2020, 11:00:44 AM
Reply #396
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Going back to the injuries and whether they could have been a result of a fall down a steep slope.  There are a couple of questions that come to mind:

1.  Were Lyuda's chest injuries a result of a single large impact or two separate impacts?
2. Is it a coincidence that the two people with significant chest injuries also both had missing eyes?

I think for 1 two impacts seem more likely but if this were the case would the first impact not absorb most of the energy of the fall which then leaves the question where did the energy come from for the second impact?  A second fall or continued fall?

For 2 it just seems unlikely to be a coincidence.  It's not impossible just less likely. 

Regards

Star man

Some of the injuries are similar to the infamous so called CATTLE MUTILATIONS that have occurred around the World at various times
DB

January 03, 2020, 04:44:14 PM
Reply #397
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Star man

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Going back to the injuries and whether they could have been a result of a fall down a steep slope.  There are a couple of questions that come to mind:

1.  Were Lyuda's chest injuries a result of a single large impact or two separate impacts?
2. Is it a coincidence that the two people with significant chest injuries also both had missing eyes?

I think for 1 two impacts seem more likely but if this were the case would the first impact not absorb most of the energy of the fall which then leaves the question where did the energy come from for the second impact?  A second fall or continued fall?

For 2 it just seems unlikely to be a coincidence.  It's not impossible just less likely. 

Regards

Star man

Some of the injuries are similar to the infamous so called CATTLE MUTILATIONS that have occurred around the World at various times

I guess they are.  It's strange that there is a narrative that supports an attack by some "thing" .  I would still like to understand why Yuri D climbed the cedar given the state of his hands and feet.  Were his hands and feet in a poor state by the time he got to the cedar, or were they in a better condition, and became severely frost bitten while he was at the cedar trying to start a fire?  Did he climb the tree to collect fire wood and then later developed frost bite because it took a long time to build the fire?  How long did it take them to get to the cedar from the tent?  Answering these questions might help to understand whether Yuri D and Krivo and possibly the others climbed the tree to escape some kind of threat?

Regards

Star man

January 06, 2020, 11:43:34 PM
Reply #398
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Star man

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Another consideration for a fall down a incline.  What are the chances of Lyuda and Semyon falling together and both sustaining very similar injuries?  If Semyon was helping Lyuda or they were both helping Thibo then maybe it is possible that they fell at the same time, but to then both receive flail chest!  Again if they fell from the same place, the same height onto the same rocks then maybe.  Thibo’s head injury is different so is it possible that he fell at a different place?  Kolevatov helps Thibo, Semyon helps Lyuda.  Semyon and Lyuda fall together.  Kolevatov and Thibo don’t fall down the slope? 

Still needs more thought,

Regards
Star man

January 07, 2020, 11:23:27 AM
Reply #399
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Going back to the injuries and whether they could have been a result of a fall down a steep slope.  There are a couple of questions that come to mind:

1.  Were Lyuda's chest injuries a result of a single large impact or two separate impacts?
2. Is it a coincidence that the two people with significant chest injuries also both had missing eyes?

I think for 1 two impacts seem more likely but if this were the case would the first impact not absorb most of the energy of the fall which then leaves the question where did the energy come from for the second impact?  A second fall or continued fall?

For 2 it just seems unlikely to be a coincidence.  It's not impossible just less likely. 

Regards

Star man

Some of the injuries are similar to the infamous so called CATTLE MUTILATIONS that have occurred around the World at various times

I guess they are.  It's strange that there is a narrative that supports an attack by some "thing" .  I would still like to understand why Yuri D climbed the cedar given the state of his hands and feet.  Were his hands and feet in a poor state by the time he got to the cedar, or were they in a better condition, and became severely frost bitten while he was at the cedar trying to start a fire?  Did he climb the tree to collect fire wood and then later developed frost bite because it took a long time to build the fire?  How long did it take them to get to the cedar from the tent?  Answering these questions might help to understand whether Yuri D and Krivo and possibly the others climbed the tree to escape some kind of threat?

Regards

Star man

I like your use of the word THING. THING is exactly what we may be up against  !  ?  The Soviet Authorities had to use other words. And this THING behaved in a way that we can not comprehend and that may in turn explain a lot about this Dyatlov Mystery.
DB

January 11, 2020, 04:28:58 PM
Reply #400
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Star man

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A question about the sheet that was used in the tent:

In the Sharavin interview he describes a sheet being in place at the entrance to the tent.  Extract is below:

K: And the sheet that hung at the entrance? Could you see it?

MSh: Yes there was, it looks like there was. Maybe that's why they didn't try to go out through the entrance. On one side of the entrance there was a stove, there was something else they had there. Then it [the sheet] was hung up and it was necessary to leave the tent very quickly. I have such an opinion, to the question why they left the tent so urgently, there can be only one answer: life threatening factors, most likely poisoning. They could not breathe. If there was a movement of snow, they would not have run like that. At night they don’t see how much snow is moving, but the slide stopped. The tent was not demolished. After all, it didn’t grind everyone head over heels with the tent. I think that these were factors related to the unknown and the inability to continue to be here. Couldn't breathe! And the poisoning is such that they felt it. That's why they ran.


I thought the sheet was used to make a partition in the tent for the girls?  So what was it doing at the entrance to the tent?  Keeping the draft out?

Regards
Star man

January 11, 2020, 06:10:44 PM
Reply #401
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jarrfan


It is possible there were 2 sheets, but will have to check. I remember the partition sheet to separate the girls. it is possible there was a sheet to avert cold wind coming into the entrance since it was buttoned and there could have been drafts.

Another person described the entrance as buttoned closed. This does not make any sense unless the group were convinced they were being asked to come out for just a moment of interrogation.

As far as the footprints, a force could have been standing farther from the group as they were commanded to walk down to the tree line which they accommodated and walked in unison trying to figure out the next step to stay alive.

It is possible they were tortured with fire but it is also possible they were separated and interrogated with the "force" going back and forth to check each person's answers. There was said to be pieces of flesh on the tree bark and the hands of the 2 Yuri's were macerated. They definitely climbed the tree as noted by the cut branches, but still no purpose for that has been established.

There was discussion about poisoning to get them out of the tent. I wonder if it is possible the 3 small cuts were actually from outside the tent and the one seamstress was just making her personal guess. I could guess someone forced a substance, maybe powdered mushrooms or possibly LSD into the tent either by the Mansi which was suggested also, or by the KGB. The CIA used LSD on their own agents in the 1950s, so it is possible the Russians did too.

Keep thinking...

January 12, 2020, 04:09:24 PM
Reply #402
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Star man

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It is possible there were 2 sheets, but will have to check. I remember the partition sheet to separate the girls. it is possible there was a sheet to avert cold wind coming into the entrance since it was buttoned and there could have been drafts.

Another person described the entrance as buttoned closed. This does not make any sense unless the group were convinced they were being asked to come out for just a moment of interrogation.

As far as the footprints, a force could have been standing farther from the group as they were commanded to walk down to the tree line which they accommodated and walked in unison trying to figure out the next step to stay alive.

It is possible they were tortured with fire but it is also possible they were separated and interrogated with the "force" going back and forth to check each person's answers. There was said to be pieces of flesh on the tree bark and the hands of the 2 Yuri's were macerated. They definitely climbed the tree as noted by the cut branches, but still no purpose for that has been established.

There was discussion about poisoning to get them out of the tent. I wonder if it is possible the 3 small cuts were actually from outside the tent and the one seamstress was just making her personal guess. I could guess someone forced a substance, maybe powdered mushrooms or possibly LSD into the tent either by the Mansi which was suggested also, or by the KGB. The CIA used LSD on their own agents in the 1950s, so it is possible the Russians did too.

Keep thinking...

It is possible that it was genuinely used to keep the cold out of the tent.  It's interesting though when you consider the scene.  I can't be sure but it does appear that the three cuts were made from inside, and then the holes were made bigger by grabbing the cuts and pulling, tearing the tent.  There is a suppose to be a hole in the tent with one of Dyatlov's jackets stuffed into it.  The blankets are layed out and not crumpled.  Thibo and Semyon were better dressed and had shoes on.  Semyon had his camera around his neck.  Rusted managed to put on one boot but not the other, which I assume was left in the tent (7 Valenki).  They took matches, a flashlight, knives or at least one or more pen knives.  Another jacket was found about 10 metres from the tent.  They definitely left in a hurry and they didn't stop to finish dressing.

Regards

Star man

January 27, 2020, 11:40:16 PM
Reply #403
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Weighing up all the different evidence for the dpi I thought that this might be an interesting question for the Yeti theory:

What evidence is there that they were not attacked by a Yeti or some other kind of large ape like creature?

Apart from the the obvious challenge that Yetis don’t exist or have never been proven to exist.  What evidence is there to rule it out.  One problem that I can think of to start with is the lack of foot prints of such a creature.

What else is there?

Regards

Star man

January 28, 2020, 01:00:49 PM
Reply #404
Online

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Weighing up all the different evidence for the dpi I thought that this might be an interesting question for the Yeti theory:

What evidence is there that they were not attacked by a Yeti or some other kind of large ape like creature?

Apart from the the obvious challenge that Yetis don’t exist or have never been proven to exist.  What evidence is there to rule it out.  One problem that I can think of to start with is the lack of foot prints of such a creature.

What else is there?

Regards

Star man

Its really a fundamental philosophical point you raise. And its tricky. If we knew that we were dealing with a crime then we would have to curtail the wild theories. But because we dont know if a crime was committed then we can allow these wild theories. I suppose most would agree that the Yeti theory comes under the wild heading. Even so it is probably best if we keep our feet on the ground so to speak. And that is a point I would like to bring up here. What if the mythical Yeti is not of this known World  !  ?  That could immediately answer your lack of Footprints point. Interestingly The Indian Army was convinced that it had come across Yeti Footprints in the Himalaya.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-48101717
« Last Edit: January 28, 2020, 01:12:59 PM by sarapuk »
DB

January 28, 2020, 09:12:37 PM
Reply #405
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jarrfan


As far as the Yeti theory, I would investigate the Mansi stories to confirm or not confirm they have seen a Yeti or seen footprints. They are the people who live there and they are the ones hunting in the woods. If a yeti  can be confirmed, it has to be by the Mansi information....

January 29, 2020, 06:00:13 AM
Reply #406
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Weighing up all the different evidence for the dpi I thought that this might be an interesting question for the Yeti theory:

What evidence is there that they were not attacked by a Yeti or some other kind of large ape like creature?

Apart from the the obvious challenge that Yetis don’t exist or have never been proven to exist.  What evidence is there to rule it out.  One problem that I can think of to start with is the lack of foot prints of such a creature.

What else is there?

Regards

Star man

Its really a fundamental philosophical point you raise. And its tricky. If we knew that we were dealing with a crime then we would have to curtail the wild theories. But because we dont know if a crime was committed then we can allow these wild theories. I suppose most would agree that the Yeti theory comes under the wild heading. Even so it is probably best if we keep our feet on the ground so to speak. And that is a point I would like to bring up here. What if the mythical Yeti is not of this known World  !  ?  That could immediately answer your lack of Footprints point. Interestingly The Indian Army was convinced that it had come across Yeti Footprints in the Himalaya.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-48101717.

author=sarapuk link=topic=452.msg8303#msg8303 date=1580245249]
Weighing up all the different evidence for the dpi I thought that this might be an interesting question for the Yeti theory:

What evidence is there that they were not attacked by a Yeti or some other kind of large ape like creature?

Apart from the the obvious challenge that Yetis don’t exist or have never been proven to exist.  What evidence is there to rule it out.  One problem that I can think of to start with is the lack of foot prints of such a creature.

What else is there?

Regards

Star man

Its really a fundamental philosophical point you raise. And its tricky. If we knew that we were dealing with a crime then we would have to curtail the wild theories. But because we dont know if a crime was committed then we can allow these wild theories. I suppose most would agree that the Yeti theory comes under the wild heading. Even so it is probably best if we keep our feet on the ground so to speak. And that is a point I would like to bring up here. What if the mythical Yeti is not of this known World  !  ?  That could immediately answer your lack of Footprints point. Interestingly The Indian Army was convinced that it had come across Yeti Footprints in the Himalaya.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-48101717.
[/quote]

Your quite correct.  The Yeti is a wild theory.  But I think if it’s worth considering it is worth considering properly.  Absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence.  We have all been indoctrinated to believe that such creatures don’t exist.  Yet there are hundreds of eye witness reports and lots of grainy videos and photographs some of which are at least credible. 

Don’t get me wrong I too am still sceptical and as previously stated in this topic , when I first started to look at it I expected to find evidence to rule it out.  However I found evidence that supports it.  Saying that caution is still required because when you introduce potentially mythical explanations into a theory it becomes easier to fit the myth to the evidence.  I don’t think I have done that. There is a narrative that seems to fit.  Many pieces of evidence can be attributed to different causes but when you do that the narrative moves further and further away from reality and almost becomes as unlikely as the myth.  Examples below:

1. Leaving the tent with no shoes or outside clothes suggests an immediate threat to their lives.  There are many possible threats that might explain this.  A dangerous animal or creature being one.

2. Thibo’s head injury is identical in shape and proportion to a very large thumb.  This could be coincidence.  Thibo May have fallen heavily and hit his head on a rock of exactly the right shape and radius of curvature and luckily did sustain any other significant injuries to extremities or body.

3. Rustem head injury and internal bleeding/damage is consistent with an assault of some kind.  But he may have simply wandered around the slope repeatedly falling over hitting his head until he just gave up and layer down to die.

4. Lyuda and Semyon’s injuries are consistent with a massive assault typical of that of an large ape with facial damage including eye removed and Lyuda tongue, hyoid bone.  But it is possible that they just fell off a ridge and landed heavily sustaining very similar injuries while not significantly hurting arena/legs, ankles and wrists.  It is possible that the eyes and tongue are just a component of natural decay and the unusual movement of the hyoid bone is just normal.

5. Yuri D climes the cedar when it is likely that he had severe frost bite.  Was he trying to find safety from something or was he just trying to get fire wood and look for his friends.

Why would the government behave so strangely about the case, even if they knew a Yeti was involved?  Maybe because the creature was a hybrid human that they themselves had been experimenting with and had been released into the wild.  NB previous government sponsored research into producing human/ape hybrids.

Maybe it was just something else - nuclear or chemical weapon test.

The point is the more you try to explain away all the related circumstances as coincidence the more unlikely that narrative becomes too.

Regards
Star man

January 29, 2020, 08:37:41 AM
Reply #407
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
As far as the Yeti theory, I would investigate the Mansi stories to confirm or not confirm they have seen a Yeti or seen footprints. They are the people who live there and they are the ones hunting in the woods. If a yeti  can be confirmed, it has to be by the Mansi information....

From what I have seen it appears the Menk is a part of the Mansi belief system.  But many native peoples have similar beliefs and stories including many native Americans.  I”m not sure it will help support the case though. 

If you think about it though even if someone provides proof of the existence of Yeti it doesn’t prove that a Yeti was responsible for the dpi.  That would still have to be proven.

Regards
Star man

Regards
Star man

January 29, 2020, 11:50:01 PM
Reply #408
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Just to illustrate the point I made above further with a hypothetical example:

A man is found dead at the front of a tall building.  He has significant chest, head injuries.  He recently lost his job, his girlfriend left him, he was being evicted from his apartment and he told all his friends he was fed up with life.  His apartment is directly above where he was found.  His balcony door was open and dirt was found on the hand rail that matches the dirt on his shoes.  What do you think happened to him!

Conclusion - he was subject to a hit and run outside his apartment building?

He may have left the door to his balcony open to get some fresh air in?  The dirt on the hand rail is where he rested his foot while doing his shoe lace up. 

Regards

Star man

February 11, 2020, 09:45:07 AM
Reply #409
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Per Inge Oestmoen


Weighing up all the different evidence for the dpi I thought that this might be an interesting question for the Yeti theory:

What evidence is there that they were not attacked by a Yeti or some other kind of large ape like creature?

Apart from the the obvious challenge that Yetis don’t exist or have never been proven to exist.  What evidence is there to rule it out.  One problem that I can think of to start with is the lack of foot prints of such a creature.

What else is there?

Regards

Star man

Its really a fundamental philosophical point you raise. And its tricky. If we knew that we were dealing with a crime then we would have to curtail the wild theories. But because we dont know if a crime was committed then we can allow these wild theories. I suppose most would agree that the Yeti theory comes under the wild heading. Even so it is probably best if we keep our feet on the ground so to speak. And that is a point I would like to bring up here. What if the mythical Yeti is not of this known World  !  ?  That could immediately answer your lack of Footprints point. Interestingly The Indian Army was convinced that it had come across Yeti Footprints in the Himalaya.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-48101717.

author=sarapuk link=topic=452.msg8303#msg8303 date=1580245249]
Weighing up all the different evidence for the dpi I thought that this might be an interesting question for the Yeti theory:

What evidence is there that they were not attacked by a Yeti or some other kind of large ape like creature?

Apart from the the obvious challenge that Yetis don’t exist or have never been proven to exist.  What evidence is there to rule it out.  One problem that I can think of to start with is the lack of foot prints of such a creature.

What else is there?

Regards

Star man

Its really a fundamental philosophical point you raise. And its tricky. If we knew that we were dealing with a crime then we would have to curtail the wild theories. But because we dont know if a crime was committed then we can allow these wild theories. I suppose most would agree that the Yeti theory comes under the wild heading. Even so it is probably best if we keep our feet on the ground so to speak. And that is a point I would like to bring up here. What if the mythical Yeti is not of this known World  !  ?  That could immediately answer your lack of Footprints point. Interestingly The Indian Army was convinced that it had come across Yeti Footprints in the Himalaya.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-48101717.

Your quite correct.  The Yeti is a wild theory.  But I think if it’s worth considering it is worth considering properly.  Absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence.  We have all been indoctrinated to believe that such creatures don’t exist.  Yet there are hundreds of eye witness reports and lots of grainy videos and photographs some of which are at least credible. 

Don’t get me wrong I too am still sceptical and as previously stated in this topic , when I first started to look at it I expected to find evidence to rule it out.  However I found evidence that supports it.  Saying that caution is still required because when you introduce potentially mythical explanations into a theory it becomes easier to fit the myth to the evidence.  I don’t think I have done that. There is a narrative that seems to fit.  Many pieces of evidence can be attributed to different causes but when you do that the narrative moves further and further away from reality and almost becomes as unlikely as the myth.  Examples below:

1. Leaving the tent with no shoes or outside clothes suggests an immediate threat to their lives.  There are many possible threats that might explain this.  A dangerous animal or creature being one.

2. Thibo’s head injury is identical in shape and proportion to a very large thumb.  This could be coincidence.  Thibo May have fallen heavily and hit his head on a rock of exactly the right shape and radius of curvature and luckily did sustain any other significant injuries to extremities or body.

3. Rustem head injury and internal bleeding/damage is consistent with an assault of some kind.  But he may have simply wandered around the slope repeatedly falling over hitting his head until he just gave up and layer down to die.

4. Lyuda and Semyon’s injuries are consistent with a massive assault typical of that of an large ape with facial damage including eye removed and Lyuda tongue, hyoid bone.  But it is possible that they just fell off a ridge and landed heavily sustaining very similar injuries while not significantly hurting arena/legs, ankles and wrists.  It is possible that the eyes and tongue are just a component of natural decay and the unusual movement of the hyoid bone is just normal.

5. Yuri D climes the cedar when it is likely that he had severe frost bite.  Was he trying to find safety from something or was he just trying to get fire wood and look for his friends.

Why would the government behave so strangely about the case, even if they knew a Yeti was involved?  Maybe because the creature was a hybrid human that they themselves had been experimenting with and had been released into the wild.  NB previous government sponsored research into producing human/ape hybrids.

Maybe it was just something else - nuclear or chemical weapon test.

The point is the more you try to explain away all the related circumstances as coincidence the more unlikely that narrative becomes too.

Regards
Star man
[/quote]

All these injuries bespeak an attack.

We can safely dismiss the avalanche theory. There were no avalanches in the area. 

We can safely dismiss the infrasound theory. There are no observations of infrasound no observations of infrasound having that particular effect.  There are no observations of infrasound having made a large group of people lose their senses in the same way with no one among a group of intelligent humans being able to reason clearly. 

We can safely dismiss the yeti theory. Yetis do not exist, and fantasy creatures do not kill people.

- Leaving the tent without proper clothing or mittens means that there was an immediate threat to their lives. The only probable threat would come from other humans. There were no bite marks, no claw marks, on any of the victims, so the wolverine theory as well as the wolf theory can also be dismissed.

- The injuries of the two Yuris are consistent with their attempt to flee their attackers by desperately trying to climb a tree with bare hands without mittens. That kind of desperation is seen when someone is pursued.

- The shape of the head injury of Thibo is consistent with the impact of a few blows from a rifle butt.

- The head injury of Rustem Slobodin, likewise. There is no possibility that these injuries could have resulted from him stumbling around and falling.

- The injuries of Lyuda and Semyon are consistent with repeated blows by trained killers. From my jiu jitsu training (I am merely a yellow belt, though) I know very well that elbow strikes by a trained human can create just these injuries. There is no possibility that these injuries came from a fall. The ravine was not steep enough, and if there had been a fall it would still be impossible that both would have the same kind of chest damage with no damage to their limbs.

- These people were all murdered, and they were murdered by another group of humans who took great care to make it look like an accident. The attackers' intelligence and skill is beyond doubt, only Igor Dyatlov had an injury that seems to have been caused by an edged weapon - most likely a bayonet which Igor hit when he tried to fight against his attackers. However, these attackers were not local people or common criminals.

- Why the Soviet government behaved so strange? Well, these nine students were gifted individuals and many of them had high technical competence. If they witnessed something there in the Urals they were not supposed to know about, they would pose a potential security risk to the state. Given the international situation at the time, the Soviet government could not afford such a risk. So, an "accident" occurred.

- Yes, there was an "overwhelming force" indeed. That was the investigator's way to indirectly state what killed these unfortunates.

February 11, 2020, 11:46:17 PM
Reply #410
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I agree with a lot that you say.  It does fit an attack - and Yetis might not exist, but given the wealth of reports many by credible people it would be foolish to rule it out as a possibility and there is evidence that fits.  Thibo’s skull fracture doesn’t resemble a rifle butt.  This is examined in a previous post. 

I would not rule out the possibility of a simple snow slide that covered the tent forcing the hikers to cut their way out.  WAB has presented a convincing scenario where the injuries could have been sustained.  Put the snow slide and WANs idea together and there is a simple plausible explanation. The injuries are very suspect.  But it isn’t impossible that they occurred naturally.  If the tent was covered with snow and they had to dig their way out it would not be long before their hands would loose all feeling and become useless.  Clearly this is why Krivonischenko bit his own finger.  From shear frustration and desperation knowing he needed his hands to survive.  He probably could not feel any pain when he did this.

I still don’t think there is enough evidence - even speculative to suggest they were attacked by people. 

Regards

Star man

May 21, 2020, 03:50:06 AM
Reply #411
Offline

alecsandros


Hello there,
This is my first post on DPI, and I have to say I am thrilled with the existent forum ! Many thanks to all the contributors.

My addition to the Yeti/Menk theory is the following exerpt from a study ("The Legend of the Almas: A Comparative and Critical Analysis" available here: https://digitalcollections.sit.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=http://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjuhuz238TpAhWmThUIHf1qBtgQFjAWegQICRAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdigitalcollections.sit.edu%2Fcgi%2Fviewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D1780%26context%3Disp_collection&usg=AOvVaw1KzWTt1DiKO5WLzsHJ0NH8&httpsredir=1&article=1780&context=isp_collection) concerning the existence of the "Almas" creature (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almas_(cryptozoology)), which, unlike the almost entirely peacefull Yeti, can react with violence when cornered:
 
"There were also many wartime sightings and interactions with the almas. In 1925 in the Pamir mountains, Russian soldiers had cornered rebels in a cave (“Russian Bigfoot“). However, there was an almas in the cave, which attacked the rebels one by one, until one of the rebels managed to shoot and kill it (“Russian Bigfoot”). The one surviving rebel showed the almas to Russian General Mikhail Stephanovitch Topilski, who described it in an official report (“Russian Bigfoot“)."

Very interestingly for DPI, the "almas" attacked the rebels "one by one", until there was only one survivor (that managed to kill it).

The author, at the end of the study, makes his own assertion regarding the existence of the "Almas": "My Explanation For The Almas. After completing this paper, my opinion on the question of the reality of
the almas is that it definitely used to and possibly still does exist as a real creature. I think the most likely explanation is that the almas is a small, surviving group of Neanderthals or some other, possibly unknown, descendent of homo erectus. Neanderthals and possibly some other pre-human species were alive at the same time as modern humans before competition drove them to extinction."

May 23, 2020, 06:18:02 AM
Reply #412
Offline

alecsandros


Further on the Yeti/Menk theory, I've done some reading the previous days about Russian, Mongolian and Chinese human-like wild men or ape creatures, reported in the last 100 years. I've found the Siberian Chuchuuna (6 to 7 feet high that reportedly feeds on human flesh , also spelled Tjutjuna), the Mongolian Almas (6 to 7 feet high that can kill a yak with a single paw swipe, also called Almasti or Mulen) , the Nepalese Yeti (the Abominable Snowman, 7 to 9 feet high that is usually peacefull, but attacks humans when cornered/threatened. Other names Nyalmo, Chuti, Ban Jhakri).

Any one of those cryptozoological beasts had the strength to produce serious injuries (cracked skulls, broken ribs), and all of them are reported to attack people when cornered/threatened. One report on the Yeti mentions two of them attacking a yak herd in the middle of the night, killing two yaks immediately (by grabbing them by the horns and snapping their necks) and completely consuming (eating) them by morning. Another report of a Yeti attack in 1974 on a herd of human-held yaks produced an immediate victim (a yak had it's neck snapped immediately), who's brain was later eaten.

More info here: https://hobnailtrekkingco.com/the-mysterious-yeti/

A photo of Giganthopitecus next to a human (8ft versus 6ft tall - my estimate): https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2016/01/160106-science-evolution-apes-giant/
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 06:24:38 AM by alecsandros »

May 27, 2020, 04:55:39 PM
Reply #413
Online

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
A couple of interesting articles there alecsandros. As you know there are vast amounts of information coming online these days. The WWW just keeps getting bigger and better. Your first article does get me thinking as to why, as far as I know, no one as ever launched a serious attempt to study all the local Tribes Legends in the areas that the Dyatlov Group passed through on their ill fated expedition. Apart from the initial investigation by the Authorities when the Mansi were allegedly interrogated as possible suspects in the Murder of the Dyatlov Group. A study of the Local Tribes Legends would almost certainly bring up the Menk, this areas version of BIGFOOT. The study would need to be done on the ground to get the best feel for the Legends. Interviewing the Locals, many of whom are going to be getting very old.
DB

May 28, 2020, 01:09:13 AM
Reply #414
Offline

alecsandros


A couple of interesting articles there alecsandros. As you know there are vast amounts of information coming online these days. The WWW just keeps getting bigger and better. Your first article does get me thinking as to why, as far as I know, no one as ever launched a serious attempt to study all the local Tribes Legends in the areas that the Dyatlov Group passed through on their ill fated expedition. Apart from the initial investigation by the Authorities when the Mansi were allegedly interrogated as possible suspects in the Murder of the Dyatlov Group. A study of the Local Tribes Legends would almost certainly bring up the Menk, this areas version of BIGFOOT. The study would need to be done on the ground to get the best feel for the Legends. Interviewing the Locals, many of whom are going to be getting very old.
I would be thrilled to learn about the scientific observation of a Menk. I grew up with Jules Verne's books about mysterious places and travels, and I still hope that Planet Earth still has surprises for us, even in our post-modern world.
My best bet would be that the Menk is a Denovisan/Neanderthal hybrid, or some small population of Giganthopitecus...

June 01, 2020, 04:48:34 PM
Reply #415
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Have tried to mark up the picture again.  It is not great as I had to use my phone.  It appears that the hole was cut, then hands were used to pull at the hole to make it bigger.  It could have been the hikers themselves or the search party or someone/something else .

I would not be surprised if the other cuts were used in the same way.




image uploader

I am still pondering the scene at the tent.  I think there are several key pieces of information of note:

1.  The cuts made from the inside of the tent.
2. The fact that the group left the camp site all together
3. The fact that many of them did not collect appropriate clothing and footwear.  E.g Rustem's single boot.
4.  Nothing obvious taken from the tent.
5. The front of the tent was found still standing.

There other facts but the above are the ones that I am interested at the moment.

There are also reports that there was a sheet set up near the entrance, also that there was a hole with a jacket pushed into it.  There are also reports of another jacket and shoes found several metres from the tent.  I am cautious with the eye witness information as it is less reliable and the scene at the tent was messed up when the rescue party arrived.

There's not much to go on, but I keep coming back to this as I think understanding this scene is very important.  I will post any ideas I come up with.

Regards

Star Man

June 05, 2020, 05:52:15 PM
Reply #416
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I think there are several key pieces of evidence in the case files and at the tent that need to be examined in detail.

1. The cuts from the inside (potentially 3 cuts as stated in the case files).
2. The fact that they left and did not all take sufficient clothing and footwear with them.
3. The fact that they left the tent and campsite all together and headed for the tree line.
4. The fact that when the tent was found, the front if the tent was still standing.

There is other supporting evidence also but the above facts may be key to understanding what happened. Using the above facts and applying some simple balance of probability may allow us to home in on the events or type of event that led to this tragedy. I have included some of my own thoughts below.

If we look at the various theories, using the above information, and balance of probability we can quickly classify the theories as, very unlikely, unlikely, possible, or likely.

1. Avalanche or snow slide - very unlikely

I think we can classify an avalanche or snow slide (even a minor one as very unlikely). The slope is not that significant, and the front of the tent was still standing. I dont believe these experiences hikes would be fooled by a fake or perceived avalanche either. If there had been a small snow slide that covered part of the tent and the hikers had to cut their way out,, then as the front of the tent was still standing and the boots/tools where just inside the front of the tent on the left and right respectively, they should have been able to reach these. They would have known that they were going to an almost certain doom by descending the slope without their gear and so for a small snow slide I cant see why they would not try to retrieve more clothing, shoes and equipment and even try to recover the tent. For these reasons I would say that this theory is very unlikely.

2. The hikers died somewhere else and the scene was staged - very unlikely.

There is basically too much circumstantial detail around the various scenes and forensics. E.g Krivo bit his finger so hard that a piece of the skin was found in his mouth. This is totally consistent with the scene at the cedar. Someone who was freezing to death and who needed their hands to survive would understandably be frustrated that their hands were too cold to use. Trying to will your hands to work by biting them seems like something he would do out of desperation. The scratches and abrasions are onsistent with climbing the tree to get fire wood, or escape something. Also, there are pictures of them setting up the tent. Yes, pictures can be forged but it's unlikely. Also, I really dont see why any authority would feel they needed to go to that much trouble when there are easier ways to make people disappear. So I think it is very unlikely that the scene was fabricated.

3. Toxic Chemical or gas - possible

Exposure to a toxic agent, could result in a panicked response. The panic may explain why the tent was cut, rather than using the front to exit the tent. Some may have used the exit, some may have tried to cut through the fabric. It would also explain why they did not hang around to collect clothes and equipment and left the camp site to look for a safer place. There is also, the problem with the missing toxicology report from the case files. I dont think this one can be ruled out. There are a number of potential sources for there being toxic gas present in the various theories.

4. Forced out of the tent by other people (murdered) - unlikely

The weather was bad and visibility was poor. It was dark and they would have been difficult to find. There is no apparent motive. Nothing was taken from the tent. There were no signs of other persons at any of the scenes. There were 9 hikers so I suspect they may have tried to overpower, even 1 or 2 armed persons rather than face certain death. At least they may have had a slim chance then. I think it is safe to say that this scenario is unlikely.

5. Katabatic wind or extreme whether event - very unlikely

The weather was bad but not that bad and the conditions for a katabatic wind are not present. A strong wind or weather event is unlikely to require anyone to cut through the side of the tent. There would have likely been some warning and they could have better prepared themselves, but there is no sign of this. So it's very unlikely.

6. Poisoning/drugs - unlikely

The group had already been hiking and camping for several nights. I think that if their food was contaminated or bad, then its unlikely that they would have made it as far as they did without one or more members of the group falling ill. Given how experienced the hikers were they would have known the dangers of experimenting with drugs under these circumstances too, so I dont think they would have all taken a drug of some kind. It's not impossible but it's unlikely.

7. Ball lightning - very unlikely

There is simply no logical reason why ball lightning would induce them to cut their tent from the inside, and leave the camp without adequate clothing. It's very unlikely.

8. Internal squabble/in fighting - very unlikely

There are signs of a squabble. Minor injuries to knuckles, hands, face, lips etc, but on this night they were also in good humour as the pamphlet indicates. They also worked together as a team and they knew the dangers that fighting could result in. Even if there had been some kind of internal squabble and fight, there would be no reason for them all to leave the safety of the tent and the camp site, and I would expect more of them to have collected, boots, clothing and equipment. The evidence doesn't fit so I think this scenario is very unlikely.

9. Yeti - unlikely/possible

The rational part of my brain would lead me to think that this scenario is unlikely. However, there is evidence that fits such circumstances, as described in the Yeti topic/thread, So I am going to stretch and say that the probability may lie between unlikely and possible. I would not expect the group to try to cut the tent to escape such a creature as it would be sensible to try and stay hidden in the tent and hope that it went away. However if such a creature was there and was trying to grab at the hikers through the front of the tent, then some may have panicked and cut the tent to escape, then fled the camp. It might also explain why they didnt grab the axe to use as a weapon as it was near tge entrance to the tent.

10. Infrasound - unlikely/possible

It is possible that conditions that night resulted in the generation of infrasound. Infrasound can instill a feeling of dread into people, however from what I have read it doesn't affect everyone, it tends to affect about 25% of people in this negative way. So if it was there then it would only have affected several of the group. Even if these person had panicked (and there is no guarantee that it would panicked those affected) then I still cant see why they would all flee the camp without the essential gear they needed. Clearly Rustem tried to put his boots on, but left before he got the second boot. I would place the probability between unlikely and possible.


11 Aliens - unlikely/possible

This is another scenario where the rational part if my brain is screaming at me to rule it out. But, it could explain the scene at the tent and is something that could have caused them to panic and flee. So, I would stretch and say that it is unlikely but possible.

12. Wild Animal - unlikely

If there had been a wild animal like a bear or wolves, then it would not make sense to cut the tent and run into the night without your shoes, unless of course the animal was trying to gain access via the front of the tent. Also large bears are hibernating at this time of year.

13. Something nobody has thought of yet?

Summary if thoughts

Looking at the evidence, it seems that the type of scenario that fits the evidence at the tent, is one where something unusual or unnatural happened, something that instilled significant fear, panic and the flight response.

Looking at the evidence at the tent alone, I think the chemical/toxic scenario seems the most probable, and this would likely have been the result of some kind of military test. Infrasound is a possibility, and the injuries could be explained by natural hazards on the mountain. However when you take some of the other evidence into account such as the injuries of the Rav 4 injuries they also fit the pattern of an attack by an extremely powerful creature such as a large ape, or even potentially some extraterrestrial being (who knows).

Maybe it should not be so surprising that the theories that are closer to the top if the list are the more unusual, and strange and maybe this is why the DPI mystery is so intriguing?

Regards

Star man

June 06, 2020, 01:38:56 AM
Reply #417
Offline

sparrow


Star man,  good-posting  It does seem like you have tried to think this thing through.

June 07, 2020, 06:53:32 AM
Reply #418
Offline

alecsandros


1. Avalanche or snow slide - very unlikely

I think we can classify an avalanche or snow slide (even a minor one as very unlikely). The slope is not that significant, and the front of the tent was still standing. I dont believe these experiences hikes would be fooled by a fake or perceived avalanche either. If there had been a small snow slide that covered part of the tent and the hikers had to cut their way out,, then as the front of the tent was still standing and the boots/tools where just inside the front of the tent on the left and right respectively, they should have been able to reach these. They would have known that they were going to an almost certain doom by descending the slope without their gear and so for a small snow slide I cant see why they would not try to retrieve more clothing, shoes and equipment and even try to recover the tent. For these reasons I would say that this theory is very unlikely.
The primary reason why an avalanche was unlikely is that the footprints remained intact. If there was an avalanche, coming after them, there would have been no footprints.

Quote
2. The hikers died somewhere else and the scene was staged - very unlikely.

There is basically too much circumstantial detail around the various scenes and forensics. E.g Krivo bit his finger so hard that a piece of the skin was found in his mouth. This is totally consistent with the scene at the cedar. Someone who was freezing to death and who needed their hands to survive would understandably be frustrated that their hands were too cold to use. Trying to will your hands to work by biting them seems like something he would do out of desperation. The scratches and abrasions are onsistent with climbing the tree to get fire wood, or escape something. Also, there are pictures of them setting up the tent. Yes, pictures can be forged but it's unlikely. Also, I really dont see why any authority would feel they needed to go to that much trouble when there are easier ways to make people disappear. So I think it is very unlikely that the scene was fabricated.
This is debatable, as several objects are missing (notebooks, cameras), while others appeared with no apparent reason (military grade leg protection that didn't belong to anyone in the group). This tends to indicate that someone was at the scene of the event before the official search produced it's findings.

Quote
3. Toxic Chemical or gas - possible

Exposure to a toxic agent, could result in a panicked response. The panic may explain why the tent was cut, rather than using the front to exit the tent. Some may have used the exit, some may have tried to cut through the fabric. It would also explain why they did not hang around to collect clothes and equipment and left the camp site to look for a safer place. There is also, the problem with the missing toxicology report from the case files. I dont think this one can be ruled out. There are a number of potential sources for there being toxic gas present in the various theories.
I tend to favour this theory as well. Chemical gas would immediately be noticed - dififculties in breathing, blurred vision, etc - and would trigger a flight response.

Quote
4. Forced out of the tent by other people (murdered) - unlikely

The weather was bad and visibility was poor. It was dark and they would have been difficult to find. There is no apparent motive. Nothing was taken from the tent. There were no signs of other persons at any of the scenes. There were 9 hikers so I suspect they may have tried to overpower, even 1 or 2 armed persons rather than face certain death. At least they may have had a slim chance then. I think it is safe to say that this scenario is unlikely.

Motive - trespassing. Method - surrounding the tent with riflemen and forcing everybody out in the cold. Later forcing them to make a fire and a den, so everything might appear "normal" for the authorities.
I don't favour this hypotheses either, but I wouldn't rule it out.

Quote
5. Katabatic wind or extreme whether event - very unlikely

The weather was bad but not that bad and the conditions for a katabatic wind are not present. A strong wind or weather event is unlikely to require anyone to cut through the side of the tent. There would have likely been some warning and they could have better prepared themselves, but there is no sign of this. So it's very unlikely.
Mmm, perhaps, but keeping in mind that someone apparently was at the scene before Fev 26th/27th, an extreme weather event shouldn't be ruled out. For instance, if the hurricane thrown one or two skiers on the slope, for several tens or hundreds of meters, the others may have rushed to their aid. Later, after a few days, a first patrol alterted by Mansi people may have reached the tent and searched it, possibly slicing it open to check for documents hidden in the fabric. They would understand that everyone was dead, and take with them some cameras/notebooks (which ones ? why ?).
Quote
6. Poisoning/drugs - unlikely

The group had already been hiking and camping for several nights. I think that if their food was contaminated or bad, then its unlikely that they would have made it as far as they did without one or more members of the group falling ill. Given how experienced the hikers were they would have known the dangers of experimenting with drugs under these circumstances too, so I dont think they would have all taken a drug of some kind. It's not impossible but it's unlikely.
I also consider this theory unlikely.

Quote
7. Ball lightning - very unlikely

There is simply no logical reason why ball lightning would induce them to cut their tent from the inside, and leave the camp without adequate clothing. It's very unlikely.
Mmm, if the ball lightning was directly above the tent, and slowly descending over them, while emitting small electrical discharges, everybody would freak out and exit ASAP. A ball lightning explosion may have caused "Zolotaryov"'s and Lyubidina's injuries. I seem to remember a Romanian event from 1920-22, from a local UFO book called "the monster comes at dusk". It is about two ball lightnings (or something like that), hovering above a small village. At dusk, they both enter a house, through the chimney, and explode inside, producing severe burns and fractures to the inhabitants (two women).
Quote
8. Internal squabble/in fighting - very unlikely

There are signs of a squabble. Minor injuries to knuckles, hands, face, lips etc, but on this night they were also in good humour as the pamphlet indicates. They also worked together as a team and they knew the dangers that fighting could result in. Even if there had been some kind of internal squabble and fight, there would be no reason for them all to leave the safety of the tent and the camp site, and I would expect more of them to have collected, boots, clothing and equipment. The evidence doesn't fit so I think this scenario is very unlikely.
Perhaps, but coupled with infrasound, this may have some truth in it.
Quote
9. Yeti - unlikely/possible

The rational part of my brain would lead me to think that this scenario is unlikely. However, there is evidence that fits such circumstances, as described in the Yeti topic/thread, So I am going to stretch and say that the probability may lie between unlikely and possible. I would not expect the group to try to cut the tent to escape such a creature as it would be sensible to try and stay hidden in the tent and hope that it went away. However if such a creature was there and was trying to grab at the hikers through the front of the tent, then some may have panicked and cut the tent to escape, then fled the camp. It might also explain why they didnt grab the axe to use as a weapon as it was near tge entrance to the tent.
The Menk/Almas/Yeti seems to be very powerfull. I have read about an Indian Yeti killing 30 people (that wanted to catch him) in the XVIIIth century. However, there is no definitive evidence that the Menk exists... Still, at some level I think this is possible. Even using mountain gorillas for some military experiment, this is possible to have happened.

Quote
10. Infrasound - unlikely/possible

It is possible that conditions that night resulted in the generation of infrasound. Infrasound can instill a feeling of dread into people, however from what I have read it doesn't affect everyone, it tends to affect about 25% of people in this negative way. So if it was there then it would only have affected several of the group. Even if these person had panicked (and there is no guarantee that it would panicked those affected) then I still cant see why they would all flee the camp without the essential gear they needed. Clearly Rustem tried to put his boots on, but left before he got the second boot. I would place the probability between unlikely and possible.
What makes this more possible, IMHO, is a military test of infrasound on animals, into which our skiers unknowingly intermingled.


Quote
11 Aliens - unlikely/possible

This is another scenario where the rational part if my brain is screaming at me to rule it out. But, it could explain the scene at the tent and is something that could have caused them to panic and flee. So, I would stretch and say that it is unlikely but possible.

12. Wild Animal - unlikely

If there had been a wild animal like a bear or wolves, then it would not make sense to cut the tent and run into the night without your shoes, unless of course the animal was trying to gain access via the front of the tent. Also large bears are hibernating at this time of year.

13. Something nobody has thought of yet?

I would add
14. Meteor airburst and

15. Fatal accident concerning re-entry event of a part of a R-5 or R-7 rocket.



June 07, 2020, 04:55:17 PM
Reply #419
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
1. Avalanche or snow slide - very unlikely

I think we can classify an avalanche or snow slide (even a minor one as very unlikely). The slope is not that significant, and the front of the tent was still standing. I dont believe these experiences hikes would be fooled by a fake or perceived avalanche either. If there had been a small snow slide that covered part of the tent and the hikers had to cut their way out,, then as the front of the tent was still standing and the boots/tools where just inside the front of the tent on the left and right respectively, they should have been able to reach these. They would have known that they were going to an almost certain doom by descending the slope without their gear and so for a small snow slide I cant see why they would not try to retrieve more clothing, shoes and equipment and even try to recover the tent. For these reasons I would say that this theory is very unlikely.
The primary reason why an avalanche was unlikely is that the footprints remained intact. If there was an avalanche, coming after them, there would have been no footprints.

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2. The hikers died somewhere else and the scene was staged - very unlikely.

There is basically too much circumstantial detail around the various scenes and forensics. E.g Krivo bit his finger so hard that a piece of the skin was found in his mouth. This is totally consistent with the scene at the cedar. Someone who was freezing to death and who needed their hands to survive would understandably be frustrated that their hands were too cold to use. Trying to will your hands to work by biting them seems like something he would do out of desperation. The scratches and abrasions are onsistent with climbing the tree to get fire wood, or escape something. Also, there are pictures of them setting up the tent. Yes, pictures can be forged but it's unlikely. Also, I really dont see why any authority would feel they needed to go to that much trouble when there are easier ways to make people disappear. So I think it is very unlikely that the scene was fabricated.
This is debatable, as several objects are missing (notebooks, cameras), while others appeared with no apparent reason (military grade leg protection that didn't belong to anyone in the group). This tends to indicate that someone was at the scene of the event before the official search produced it's findings.

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3. Toxic Chemical or gas - possible

Exposure to a toxic agent, could result in a panicked response. The panic may explain why the tent was cut, rather than using the front to exit the tent. Some may have used the exit, some may have tried to cut through the fabric. It would also explain why they did not hang around to collect clothes and equipment and left the camp site to look for a safer place. There is also, the problem with the missing toxicology report from the case files. I dont think this one can be ruled out. There are a number of potential sources for there being toxic gas present in the various theories.
I tend to favour this theory as well. Chemical gas would immediately be noticed - dififculties in breathing, blurred vision, etc - and would trigger a flight response.

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4. Forced out of the tent by other people (murdered) - unlikely

The weather was bad and visibility was poor. It was dark and they would have been difficult to find. There is no apparent motive. Nothing was taken from the tent. There were no signs of other persons at any of the scenes. There were 9 hikers so I suspect they may have tried to overpower, even 1 or 2 armed persons rather than face certain death. At least they may have had a slim chance then. I think it is safe to say that this scenario is unlikely.

Motive - trespassing. Method - surrounding the tent with riflemen and forcing everybody out in the cold. Later forcing them to make a fire and a den, so everything might appear "normal" for the authorities.
I don't favour this hypotheses either, but I wouldn't rule it out.

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5. Katabatic wind or extreme whether event - very unlikely

The weather was bad but not that bad and the conditions for a katabatic wind are not present. A strong wind or weather event is unlikely to require anyone to cut through the side of the tent. There would have likely been some warning and they could have better prepared themselves, but there is no sign of this. So it's very unlikely.
Mmm, perhaps, but keeping in mind that someone apparently was at the scene before Fev 26th/27th, an extreme weather event shouldn't be ruled out. For instance, if the hurricane thrown one or two skiers on the slope, for several tens or hundreds of meters, the others may have rushed to their aid. Later, after a few days, a first patrol alterted by Mansi people may have reached the tent and searched it, possibly slicing it open to check for documents hidden in the fabric. They would understand that everyone was dead, and take with them some cameras/notebooks (which ones ? why ?).
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6. Poisoning/drugs - unlikely

The group had already been hiking and camping for several nights. I think that if their food was contaminated or bad, then its unlikely that they would have made it as far as they did without one or more members of the group falling ill. Given how experienced the hikers were they would have known the dangers of experimenting with drugs under these circumstances too, so I dont think they would have all taken a drug of some kind. It's not impossible but it's unlikely.
I also consider this theory unlikely.

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7. Ball lightning - very unlikely

There is simply no logical reason why ball lightning would induce them to cut their tent from the inside, and leave the camp without adequate clothing. It's very unlikely.
Mmm, if the ball lightning was directly above the tent, and slowly descending over them, while emitting small electrical discharges, everybody would freak out and exit ASAP. A ball lightning explosion may have caused "Zolotaryov"'s and Lyubidina's injuries. I seem to remember a Romanian event from 1920-22, from a local UFO book called "the monster comes at dusk". It is about two ball lightnings (or something like that), hovering above a small village. At dusk, they both enter a house, through the chimney, and explode inside, producing severe burns and fractures to the inhabitants (two women).
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8. Internal squabble/in fighting - very unlikely

There are signs of a squabble. Minor injuries to knuckles, hands, face, lips etc, but on this night they were also in good humour as the pamphlet indicates. They also worked together as a team and they knew the dangers that fighting could result in. Even if there had been some kind of internal squabble and fight, there would be no reason for them all to leave the safety of the tent and the camp site, and I would expect more of them to have collected, boots, clothing and equipment. The evidence doesn't fit so I think this scenario is very unlikely.
Perhaps, but coupled with infrasound, this may have some truth in it.
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9. Yeti - unlikely/possible

The rational part of my brain would lead me to think that this scenario is unlikely. However, there is evidence that fits such circumstances, as described in the Yeti topic/thread, So I am going to stretch and say that the probability may lie between unlikely and possible. I would not expect the group to try to cut the tent to escape such a creature as it would be sensible to try and stay hidden in the tent and hope that it went away. However if such a creature was there and was trying to grab at the hikers through the front of the tent, then some may have panicked and cut the tent to escape, then fled the camp. It might also explain why they didnt grab the axe to use as a weapon as it was near tge entrance to the tent.
The Menk/Almas/Yeti seems to be very powerfull. I have read about an Indian Yeti killing 30 people (that wanted to catch him) in the XVIIIth century. However, there is no definitive evidence that the Menk exists... Still, at some level I think this is possible. Even using mountain gorillas for some military experiment, this is possible to have happened.

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10. Infrasound - unlikely/possible

It is possible that conditions that night resulted in the generation of infrasound. Infrasound can instill a feeling of dread into people, however from what I have read it doesn't affect everyone, it tends to affect about 25% of people in this negative way. So if it was there then it would only have affected several of the group. Even if these person had panicked (and there is no guarantee that it would panicked those affected) then I still cant see why they would all flee the camp without the essential gear they needed. Clearly Rustem tried to put his boots on, but left before he got the second boot. I would place the probability between unlikely and possible.
What makes this more possible, IMHO, is a military test of infrasound on animals, into which our skiers unknowingly intermingled.


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11 Aliens - unlikely/possible

This is another scenario where the rational part if my brain is screaming at me to rule it out. But, it could explain the scene at the tent and is something that could have caused them to panic and flee. So, I would stretch and say that it is unlikely but possible.

12. Wild Animal - unlikely

If there had been a wild animal like a bear or wolves, then it would not make sense to cut the tent and run into the night without your shoes, unless of course the animal was trying to gain access via the front of the tent. Also large bears are hibernating at this time of year.

13. Something nobody has thought of yet?

I would add
14. Meteor airburst and

15. Fatal accident concerning re-entry event of a part of a R-5 or R-7 rocket.

The foot prints are another good reason that the avalanche theory is very unlikely.

It is possible that the scene was discovered by others before the search party got there.  I wouldn't rule it out, but I still think its unlikely.  The main point I was trying to make is that the events actually happened in this place where they were found.

I thi k if you had an infrasound weapon Kholat Syakhl would not be a good place or the best time to test such a weapon.    There is potential for natural infrasound though.  It's possible but I still think unlikely.

On the extreme weather event it is difficult to imagine that any of the group would feel the need to cut through the side of the tent.  The cuts were made through some of the seams which would have been more difficult to cut,    of the tent was damaged by wind, or some of the group were injured by tge wind, it would still make more sense to use tge normal exit.

The Yeti theory is kind of perplexing for me,  if there was already sufficient evidence on their existence then I would think that this fits this scenario quite well.  From the accounts I have seen many witnesses suggest that they are territorial and try to drive people away.  It fits well.  Alien theories are obviously just as strange, but I think more unlikely than possible.

The most rational explanation does seem to be the toxic gas .  Possibly from some kind of test. This links back to one of my first thoughts on what happened  - low yield neutron weapon and the toxic cloud it could have created,  it could also be a chemical weapon test loaded with a radioactive tracer like Sr90.  But although toxic gas seems more rational my sub conscious mind, the bit that does all those clever logical summing activities without even thinking about it, and which requires the hard work to prove that it was right is pushing me away from the toxic gas idea.

I think if there had been a meteor or small air burst it would have been an amazing site, but I also think that it would not require anyone to cut the tent, or leave the camp site,  I would imagine that they would either have seen and felt an interesting fireworks display, or have been killed at the tent.

Regards

Star man